Polar Ray is an insult to god and man. It's not a long legacy, it was introduced in 3.5 and before that it was merely one of several options for the much lower level Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. And of course, in Pathfinder, that would have to be called Freezing Sphere for copyright reasons, but that is neither here nor there.
The point however, is that in the conversion from AD&D to 3e D&D, the amount of hit points and energy resistance that creatures have has increased literally exponentially. And damage output from Evocations has not kept up in the slightest. And while we could plausibly attempt to push the envelope and pump up damage output to match, that would only be an arms race that no one would win.
Evocations in 3rd edition rules are primarily spells which serve to devastate low level opposition or to slowly but surely chip away at the defenses of opponents that pose reasonable threats. These are sometimes valid tactics, but they are not valid tactics to use one's highest level spells to accomplish. It takes a lot of magic missiles to bring down a Shadow, meaning that there is frankly no way that any Wizard is going to have enough spell slots to dedicate to doing that to make it a viable way to eventually beat such an opponent.
So here's the solution: reduce the spell level of these underperforming evocation spells. Since they scale in damage to your level, nothing actually bad happens if you get these spells early. Even a dozen or more levels early is perfectly fine because the damage scales to something level appropriate at low level. A polar ray cast by a 1st level character does just 1d6 of damage - half the damage that the same character could achieve by purchasing a vial of alchemist frost and throwing it at a target (same to-hit roll as well at any kind of close range).
So here's what the Evocation list should look like:
Evocation Cantrips
- Burning Hands
- Dancing Lights
- Light
- Magic Missile
- Shocking Grasp
Evocation 1st Level Spells
- Fireball
- Floating Disk
- Gust of Wind
- Lightning Bolt
- Polar Ray
- Sending
Evocation 2nd Level Spells
- Chain Lightning
- Cone of Cold
- Continual Flame
- Darkness
- Daylight
- Flaming Sphere (this spell badly needs to be better than it is, but that's another subject)
- Scorching Ray
- Shatter
Evocation 3rd Level Spells
- Delayed Blast Fireball
- Ice Storm
- Shout
- Tiny Hut
- Wall of Fire
- Wind Wall
Evocation 4th Level Spells
- Fire Shield
- Interposing Hand
- Resilient Sphere
- Wall of Ice
Evocation 5th Level Spells
[list] - Forceful Hand
- Freezing Sphere
- Mage Sword
- Sunburst
- Wall of Force
Evocation 6th Level Spells
- Contingency
- Grasping Hand
- Shout, Greater
Evocation 7th Level Spells
- Clenched Fist
- Force Cage
- Prismatic Spray
- [/i]
Evocation 8th Level Spells
- [i]Crushing Hand
- Meteor Swarm
- Telekinetic Sphere
Evocation 9th Level Spells
- 9th level Spells must be written for this discipline. Seriously, timestop? Shapechange? Wail of the Banshee? Astral Projection? Shades? Weird? Most disciplines have two game defining, god-fighting spells to choose from at 9th level. Evocation hasn't been given anything remotely decent for their top tier, so new, mountain leveling spells must be written for Evokers to have.
There. It's pretty much completely backwards compatible, but nonetheless puts Evokers in at being able to do something legitimately valuable - Killing Fools.
And no, having unlimited magic missiles or shocking grasps is not ungamebalanced at 1st level, or any level. Magic Missile tops out in damage at level 9, when it does 17.5 damage against any opponent who doesn't have concealment, cover, or spell resistance. But at level 9, a Rogue is literally inflicting 17.5 points of sneak attack damage with every single attack. And that's not total damage for the round, that's just the extra damage from a sneak attack. He still gets to do his weapon damage, and make his other attacks for that round. Shocking Grasp is very likely to hit, and it does a d8+1 damage. A Longsword in the hands of a Fighter is also very likely to hit and does a d8+4. While the shocking grasp is quite likely to have a better chance of hitting an orc warrior than the longsword is, it is also much more likely to do insufficient damage to drop the orc. Indeed, the Orc Warrior out of the SRD is more likely to drop in one attack from the 1st level Fighter than he from the 1st level Wizard - even factoring in the discrepancy in hit chances.
And no, casting fireballs at 1st level isn't unbalanced either. At 1st level it only does a d6 of fire damage, it's barely worth doing against many opponents. It certainly isn't putting color spray out of a job.
-Frank
Concerning some area spells (like fireball)
Why not write up lesser versions with smaller areas?
Instead of a 20 ft radius fireball from first level mages, simply a 5 foot spread (so affecting 4 squares if centered on an intersection).
Actually that's a mildly interesting list, strat-wise.
I'm not sure the change is reasonable due to backwards compatibility (aren't some spells requirements for PrCs?), and even though I think given your example on the other thread- a 9th level wizard can take out a 5th level troll using less than 20% of his daily resources, I'm not completely against the idea of the evoker getting a boost so he's a bit more interesting.
I'm just not sure what that boost should be.
Oh, and you could always make black blade of disaster an Evocation spell...(though I'm not sure the flavor fits but I dig that spell)
BTW, the postmonster has eaten your post and given birth to two of them.
BTW, the postmonster has eaten your post and given birth to two of them.
Yeah I saw that. It ate the first post and I reposted it about 2 minutes later on he assumption that it wasn't coming back. But then they both returned.
---
There aren't any classes with specific Evocation spells as prereqs that do not also have Skill Rank limits, which are fixed to character level, so it really doesn't matter.
---
I really don't see a problem with 1st level Wizards belting 20' areas with fire. It's only a d6 of fire at that point, so it's not super important.
-Frank
Nah.
Not that it's a terrible idea, unlike most of the ideas around these parts, but given that a fireball, for example, could be empowered into a third level spell slot and still do caster level dice of damage would, I think, place the spell a bit over the top.
True that an argument could be made that there is little difference between that and empowering the original Fireball into a 5th level spell slot, but by ninth caster level, your fighting stuff with better defenses like spell and fire resistance, thus balancing the fireball back out. We're also, at that point, just a level away from where fireball tops out.
Your right that spells have not risen in power along with everything else from say second ed to third, but I believe this was done deliberately to bring the Mage back down to roughly the same level as the rest of us mortals.
Historically, and presently, cantrips generally do not increase in power as caster level goes up (and I said generally. There are exceptions. I don't need 20 posters replying to this reminding me that Create Water makes 2 galleons per level or whatever). This is my preference. Cantrips already received a boost in power from 2nd ed. I personally don't want to see my favorite 0 levelers be crowded out by more powerful spells.
To get more bang for their buck, I tend to encourage my players to snatch feats that lower the spell slot cost of metamagic.
Not that it's a terrible idea, unlike most of the ideas around these parts, but given that a fireball, for example, could be empowered into a third level spell slot and still do caster level dice of damage would, I think, place the spell a bit over the top.
Seriously? 5th level Caster throws out one of his two 3rd level spells (specialists don't get 3 anymore) to inflict an average of 26 damage (save for half). That is over the top? With a DC of 11 + Int Mod?
How do you feel about those rapscallion Rogues with Rapidshot or Two Weapon Fighting who get two attacks for 4d6 + Bonuses each? They inflict over 30 damage to a single target at that level. And while yes, it's not to an area but to a single dude, it's also not costing the Rogue a limited daily resource to do that.
A d6 per level isn't a big deal at any level. 1.5d6 per level isn't a big deal at 5th level (when empower comes online), and 2.5d6 per level isn't a big deal at 9th level (when you could plausibly use Empower on one and Quicken on another). Not with the low save DCs and plentiful spell and energy resistance you're looking at.
-Frank
I'm Factoring in that rogues might miss, have to meet certain criteria for their extra damage, and put themselves in harms way to achieve this. I thinks it's yes, as I said, a bit over the top.
But I meant what I said originally. It's not a terrible idea. Just not for me, and I personally wouldn't spend money on a game that that re-writes the entire spell list when the problem, of which I'm not convinced there really is one, can be addressed simply by using current and abundant resources.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
It's an interesting idea, but I think it would have too many backwards compatible issues - you'd have to re-stat the entire spell selection of most arcane casters.
The problem is definately there, but an alternate solution could be to have a feat chain or revised evocation specialist power that would juice the damage of your evocation spells - +2 damage per die or something.
I would be in favor of something like this but there is an issue of backwards compatibility. One way to reduce the amount that needs to change would be to give evokers a class ability or access to feats that allow them to take damaging evocation spells in lower level spell slots than other casters. This will hopefully allow an evoker to be more on par with other spell casters of an equal level when using their evocation spells. Giving only evokers access to these changes would also reduce backward compatibility headaches (not an evoker, no change) and would not power up the other non evoker spell casters.
It's an interesting idea, but I think it would have too many backwards compatible issues - you'd have to re-stat the entire spell selection of most arcane casters.
The problem is definately there, but an alternate solution could be to have a feat chain or revised evocation specialist power that would juice the damage of your evocation spells - +2 damage per die or something.
The issue I have with a flat damage increase is that it makes Maximize Spell even MORE worthless. At least swingy damage makes it worth something...though God knows it's not the +3 level adjustment.
|
I would be in favor of something like this but there is an issue of backwards compatibility. One way to reduce the amount that needs to change would be to give evokers a class ability or access to feats that allow them to take damaging evocation spells in lower level spell slots than other casters. This will hopefully allow an evoker to be more on par with other spell casters of an equal level when using their evocation spells. Giving only evokers access to these changes would also reduce backward compatibility headaches (not an evoker, no change) and would not power up the other non evoker spell casters.
I like this suggestion (that only Evokers are able to access the spells earlier). Makes lots of sense, and addresses the compatibility issue.
I would be in favor of something like this but there is an issue of backwards compatibility.
How so?
You can always prepare a lower level spell in a higher level slot if you want to. So long as you drop the underperforming spells rather than raising the level of the better spells you have no compatibility issues.
-Frank
I would be in favor of something like this but there is an issue of backwards compatibility.How so?
For one thing, you could end up with a sorcerer who has too many low-level spells known and not enough high-level spells. That's not overpowering, certainly, but it does result in an illegal character.
For one thing, you could end up with a sorcerer who has too many low-level spells known and not enough high-level spells. That's not overpowering, certainly, but it does result in an illegal character.I would be in favor of something like this but there is an issue of backwards compatibility.How so?
No it doesn't. Sorcerers are allowed to know lower level spells with their higher level spells known slots. They are also able to cast lower level spells with their higher level spell slots. You might even do this if for some reason your Charisma wasn't high enough to cast the higher level spells.
That's an underpowered, but totally legal character. No backwards compatibility issue has been demonstrated.
-Frank
For one thing, you could end up with a sorcerer who has too many low-level spells known and not enough high-level spells. That's not overpowering, certainly, but it does result in an illegal character.No it doesn't. Sorcerers are allowed to know lower level spells with their higher level spells known slots.
Is that rule in a splatbook? The SRD just says "[the sorcerer] gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known".
The backward compatibility comes up in converting existing adventures with wizards to the Pathfinder rule set, and converting existing 3.5 PCs to the Pathfinder game. I agree that the conversion is doable and probably would not take that much time once you get used to it, but I do not see a way to make these spell level switches without players either downloading a free conversion document on the website or buying 3.P to get the updated list from the book. The Paizo people may think that it would be too confusing for backward compatibility and that is their call. I know that the guys at Paizo are willing to change individual spell descriptions but I do not know if they are willing to change the level that spells are. I honestly did not look at all the updated spells to see if any levels changed though so my concern may be mute. If Paizo is willing to do that it would be great, but I am afraid it may open up a slippery slope where everyone wants to submit a spell for level change and that a Pandora’s Box they may not want to open.
Concerning some area spells (like fireball)
Why not write up lesser versions with smaller areas?
Instead of a 20 ft radius fireball from first level mages, simply a 5 foot spread (so affecting 4 squares if centered on an intersection).
On thinking about it more I do agree more with Radiun about just making up new spells. I am not aware of anything that states you cannot make a spell that invalidates an existing spell. Just make up (someones name) fireball and use the same exact text only change the spell level. There should not be any problem with that for backwards compatibility. I would also love to see spells that can only be learned by wizards of a certain specialization, reducing some of the power creep (I think something similar came up in one of the cleric spells board also). DMs could always ban these spells if they do not like them and just use the old rules that way. It is not as elegant as just changing the spell levels but working on rule sets unfortunately means you sometimes have to leave old rules that are functionally obsolete.