I dont like the idea of counting points again - in this case, the barbarian rage points.
Couldn't it just be a number of "rage uses" and different barbarian feats where I can spend this uses?
I'm with you...
What's the difference?
What's the difference?
the difference is a "unified system". why suddenly introduce points to everything?
Those names are still too civilized for me. I like "Rampage", "Snarl" and "Smash" better. :)
Good point. I like Snarl and Smash, but Rampage for speed? The word rampage conjures images of smashing something to me. I like Sprint better.
I'm with you...I dont like the idea of counting points again - in this case, the barbarian rage points.
Couldn't it just be a number of "rage uses" and different barbarian feats where I can spend this uses?
Guys once again wait to you see it and give it a fair shake not a "hulk no like hulk smash"
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What amuses me about this thread is everyone's all upset about the abilities names.... guess what folks.. none of these abilities are new, there just called something different in 3.5 because they're not in the OGL. :P
There's no difference between saying "I'm going to use Intimidating Rage" then there is in saying "I'm going to use Hunter's Cry."
Please check the 4E hate at the door.
What's the difference?the difference is a "unified system". why suddenly introduce points to everything?
They're the same thing with different names.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Guys once again wait to you see it and give it a fair shake not a "hulk no like hulk smash"
Or better yet, wait until it's been playtested. Judgments made from reading rules are often quite different than ones derived from playing with them. And even then, playtesting in itself often brings out an overly scrutinizing and pessimistic eye.
What amuses me about this thread is everyone's all upset about the abilities names.... guess what folks.. none of these abilities are new, there just called something different in 3.5 because they're not in the OGL. :P
There's no difference between saying "I'm going to use Intimidating Rage" then there is in saying "I'm going to use Hunter's Cry."
I don't really care what they call things as long as they don't replace "Barbarian" with "Coxcomb" and "Rage" with "Hissy Fit". :)
What amuses me about this thread is everyone's all upset about the abilities names.... guess what folks.. none of these abilities are new, there just called something different in 3.5 because they're not in the OGL. :P
There's no difference between saying "I'm going to use Intimidating Rage" then there is in saying "I'm going to use Hunter's Cry."
Please check the 4E hate at the door.
While it is true that there is no difference, one is a descriptive term, the other is a name. One anyone can make up on the fly, the other someone sat down and documented. One sounds appropriate for talking about it in character (granted, a barbarian, but still a ranger or druid could easily describe a barbarian when they're angry as "intimidating."), the other sounds more appropriate for a narrator talking about the barbarian. So the one that sounds more appropriate for an in-character person to talk about isn't OGL, fine. Name it some other description.
Please define "anime-sounding" as that can mean many different things. Or at least compare it to shonen which is specifically what you're thinking of. But I do agree with you're general sentiment.
Hunter's cry - Strike Fear or Fear Strike or Intimidating Cry "When she gets mad, just stay away from her, unless you desire your heart strickened with fear." vs "When she gets mad, she will use her hunter's cry." If the second was in a movie, it would be followed up by some exposition to explain what it is.Hunter's Cry - Rebel Yell. Woo!
Woo!
But I think that is going to be a bard ability
I'm fine with keeping the names for some of the moves since the sometimes seem appropriate for abilites. Although I imagine they woul only be call those by bard who want to give names to any attack/spell they see.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I too prefer descriptive names for techniques and feats instead of the anime-sounding names. It is one of my annoyances with 4E, so please heed this post. I have loved the direction Pathfinder is going; don't head into WoTC territory!
These didn't make me think anime. I thought they sounded like what a barbarian culture might call them. You might think it's "WotC territory" but let's wait and see how the system works before trashing on it. Book, Cover and all that.
From what I understand, the Barbarian was one of the most well-designed classes in 3.5 edition.
I think this is arguable. The Barbarian isn't a bad class, but it is a class that a lot of players poach for a few levels before moving on. Once you have Rage it is easy to get more uses per day by taking Extra Rage. Most sessions have 3 or 4 combats per day, so you can probably rage in every major battle even with just 1 level of Barbarian. Including a steady diet of little bonuses to keep people taking Barbarian levels doesn't seem like a bad idea given the scope of the PF rules.
I doubt Rage Points should be much of a problem. I guess legacy barbarians in old adventures can just go on using their old rage mechanic since the results of doing so are usually included in the stat block. New barbarians creatged in PF would have to keep track of rage points, but they'd no longer have to keep track of rages per day or possibly rage duration, so that might not be any more paperwork overall. Besides, it isn't like the player of a barbrian is generally overwhelmed with paperwork.
A system with feats that say "While in a rage you can blah blah blah" might work out ok. I suspect that rage points will work out better though since they could allow you to use your powers for small stuff and even out of combat purposes that you definitely wouldn't want to waste an entire combat worth of rage on.
Or better yet, wait until it's been playtested. Judgments made from reading rules are often quite different than ones derived from playing with them. And even then, playtesting in itself often brings out an overly scrutinizing and pessimistic eye.
Waiting isn't much fun. Not all of us are able to convert our current campaigns into Pathfinder playtests either. Even the DM I have who LOVES Pathfinder and all things Paizo wants to finish out Savage Tide with 3.5. I do expect to end up playing Pathfinder one day though, so I'd rather toss my admittedly imperfect observations into the discussion than sit on the sidelines while the game I play next year is developed.
I don't care what it's called as long as it works and neither should any of you.
Hey, tone it down. You're entitled to your opinion, and so am I and everyone else. I have stated my opinion, so have you and so have others. Lets let it drop.
Cat's Grace
Bear's Endurance
Owl's Wisdom
Bull Rush
Lightning Reflexes
A Thousand Faces
Diamond Body
Quivering Palm
Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Eagle's Splendor
etc...There's a precedent for metaphoric names in D&D. The new barbarian powers aren't exactly unusual.
Right, but those are mostly spell names. Someone sat down and documented them. Those make sense to have those kinds of names.
At the end of the day (which it is here on the east coast), on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being enough to mention and 10 being how I feel 4E is, I'd call this a 2. Discussion on this really has surpassed how I feel about it. So, like I said, I stated my opinion. Now I"m letting this drop.
Actually, I think this discussion over the naming of the class features is important to the overall feel of Pathfinder RPG, and really does not need to become a 3e/4e battleground. What we have so far is what I think of as Evocative Names, designed to add flavor punch to the class features. What DMcCoy1693 proposed were Descriptive Names which tend to be self-explanatory.
Certain classes work better with different naming systems, and even within a class, different features may lend themselves to a different naming framework. Evocative names work best for class features needing a sense of mystery. The monk class features posted earlier are great examples, as are the spells. Using a Descriptive name instead of Quivering Palm would make the monk feel a lot less exotic. But take the rogue or the barbarian, with their base abilities. For them, a Descriptive name grounds the class features into the physical mundane world. Using a different naming technique helps to differentiate between the classes and their various features.
Sometimes how you say something means just as much or more than what you say.
So I would prefer DMcCoy's alternative class feature names.
OK, where do I go to download round 2 of the Alpha Release?
(strokes beard) Interesting... very interesting...
I for one, want to see how these barbarians are put together. Before I make any judgment calls.
OK, where do I go to download round 2 of the Alpha Release?
It's not downloadble, because it's not ready at the moment
I think we must all be starved for the Alpha 2 release, based on how we have taken to bickering over the names of abilities. :-)
I for one am not getting any work done because I am on this forum every 10 minutes looking for an update.
I like the idea of rage points just fine. Using points instead of uses per day means I can pick and choose what I want to do on the fly instead of being shoehorned into only doing such and such X times per day or so and so X times per day.
I suspect in playtesting that barbarian players will be too busy having fun blitzkrieging all over the battlefield to worry about points versus times per day.
Yawp!
I like the idea of rage points just fine. Using points instead of uses per day means I can pick and choose what I want to do on the fly instead of being shoehorned into only doing such and such X times per day or so and so X times per day.
Who says, that the barb can do only one thing with his rage if rage is useable x-times / day?
So here it goes: Barbarian Rage is useable X-times / day. You can activate it to do X, Y or Z.
:-/ guess that's similar to rage points *grumble*...have to go and think about that...
While I do not want to spoil anything, I predict that most of this discussion will evaporate when release 2 hits. I just happened to pick some of the more fanciful power names, most of the rest are pretty descriptive.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Glad to hear, Jason.
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I don't mind what class abilities or feats are called in the rulebook because if the name doesn't suit my character I invent something different to call it when I'm speaking in character and use the "official" name if my DM give's me a blank look. Generally they catch on pretty fast. Also, I don't mind tracking points. I don't know how often I've had to ask the DM "How long have we been down here?" The passage of game time is so abstract, at times contracted, at times dilated that it is easy not to know where you are in a day. How and when points are regenerated is a better question. Are we all going to enter the dungeon at 10:30 cause our points come back at midnight? If we are attacked 4hrs into a planned 8hr rest, how many points do we have? If these questions can be answered, points work just fine. BTW you can write a string of numbers along the edge of a page and slide a paper clip to circle your current status. Saves a lot of erasing.
Where is the beta 2 release teaser? I'd like to take a look at it, especially since the paladin is my favorite class. Please let me know.
If you downloaded alpha release 1, you'll get an email when alpha release 2 is up. The Beta release PDF won't be available until GenCon-ish timeframe.
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As far as names go; I am fine with any naming convention, descriptive or evocative, as long as it is understood that this is simply what it is called in game meta-speak, and that individual characters can have the same abilities under different names ‘in-character’.
I don’t agree that evocative names are out of place for barbarian abilities. This difference of opinion possibly arises from a difference in how posters see the powers being gained.
If you believe the Barbarian basically wanders away from his tribe, to seek his destiny alone in the big wide world, then all his new abilities will be self-taught, ‘on the job’. As such, he may think up names for what he does, or he may not. It’s just ‘that thing I do’.
As such, simple descriptive names are fine.
I wouldn’t discount the possibility that some may be big-headed enough to make up their own names for their favourite moves.
“Get out of my way, little man, or I show you The Mammoth’s Kiss!”
If the Barbarian stays within his tribe (or revisits regularly), then there may well be a formalised series of rituals and trials to pass before being inducted in the inner mysteries of the spirit world.
As such, evocative names are fine.
“Mother! The Skinwalker saw me slay that orc last night! He has asked me to join the Jaguar Cult! I’ll be able to perform the Starlight Pounce, like my cousins!”
And don’t forget, there’s no reason the abilities can’t have a common name, shared by multiple tribes. In a world with scrying, telepathy, teleportation, planes-walking, spirit-summoning, these wilderness dwellers may not be as isolated as their real-world equivalents.
I can imagine a leonal guardinal sponsoring a Jaguar Cult that stretches across the whole world.
“Listen closely, my cubs. This is a move I call The Razor-Claw Tsunami!”
The Barbarian isn't a bad class, but it is a class that a lot of players poach for a few levels before moving on. Once you have Rage it is easy to get more uses per day by taking Extra Rage. Most sessions have 3 or 4 combats per day, so you can probably rage in every major battle even with just 1 level of Barbarian.
Very true. It seems very lopsided to see a PC who took one level of Barbarian, then diverged to, say, Fighter for the feats, spending one feat on Extra Rage, and having the same rages/day as a 12th level Barbarian. Why stay single-classed, when you can improve the main iconic ability, virtually for free? The other low- to mid-level class abilities could be gained by a Rogue (Trap Sense and Uncanny Dodge). And Trap Sense isn’t really all that exciting; it’s a situational, static mod, which either makes a difference, or doesn’t. It’s not an actual ability that the character chooses to use.
One of the stated aims of PFRPG has been to make the core base-classes more appealing at every level, so as to reduce or remove the temptation to multi-class or prestige class.
The 3.5 Barbarian is quite a front-loaded class, with the most tempting abilities (Rage, Fast Movement & Uncanny Dodge) available by level 2, and it has an inbuilt disadvantage (illiteracy) that actually encourages multi-classing, since the penalty disappears upon taking any other class, while penalising those PCs who remain dedicated single-class.
I’ve never seen any player spend the two skill points to become literate; the thinking seems to be “This class has several dead levels (or near enough to dead levels), so I know I’ll be multi-classing at some point. If I spend these skill points now, they’ll be totally wasted when I take my other class, so I can wait”.
Including a steady diet of little bonuses to keep people taking Barbarian levels doesn't seem like a bad idea given the scope of the PF rules.
Again, very true.
I’m hoping that these ‘rage points’ increase every level, since the current 3.5 method is to give nothing for 3 levels, then give a parcel of a full rage every fourth.
That simply encourages players to multi-class out, rather than put in that effort.
Having small incremental increases mean that there is always a reason to continue in the class, and that a level 3 barbarian is objectively better at raging than a level 1 barbarian, and can still have some ‘juice’ left for other uses.
Moving away from the ‘1/day, 2/day’ model to a pool of points, allows for new abilities to be added without having to worry about whether they are more or less useful than a rage attempt. If rage is priced at a median value (say, 4 rage points), then the other uses can be priced up or down as desired.
I would like to see the class gain regular abilities, maybe even every level, or two, granting new ways to spend these points (which seems to be the case with Amiri). Since these are class abilities, they would not need to be balanced in number or power vs feats.
They would work best if they were picked from a list, like the Fighter bonus feats, rather than set out rigidly, as these would allow a player to customise his PC to reflect his own preferences, or his tribe’s cultural leanings.
This would also reward single-classing, since the character who dips into this class, then buys Extra Rage (modified), may well have a huge pool of points to spend, but won’t have the same versatility of options to spend them on.
“You left the tribe too early, my son. You were never initiated into the mysteries of the elders. I sense that you are full of primal rage against our enemies, and that is good to see. But do not forget there are so many good things in life to enjoy. Can you call upon the spirit of Grandfather Gibbon?”
<shins up tree in seconds; swings down with arm full of fruit>
“Hakuna Matata!”
I suspect that rage points will work out better though since they could allow you to use your powers for small stuff and even out of combat purposes that you definitely wouldn't want to waste an entire combat worth of rage on.
There are very common obstacles in adventures, where the writer probably thought “Hmm, a party won’t get past that portcullis/push over that statue/hoist that elevator, normally, but if they have a barbarian, and he rages, it should be possible. This will allow him to take centre stage and impress the rest of the players with his awesome power.”.
The problem with that, is that it just doesn’t feel ‘heroic’, or ‘glorious’ to be used as the party’s labourer, compared to completely massacring a room-full of opponents and delivering a 50hp crit on the evil overlord. The player of such a PC is usually unwilling to blow a potential 10-15 rounds of improved combat ability, for the sake of one or two rounds of pushing, pulling or lifting. Not when (in 3.5) said ability can only be used once, twice or three times per adventure.
Players of barbarians do not see using their rage to lift a block as ‘spotlight time’, but rather, that the DM is tired of them pwning the BBEGs, and is trying to strip their powers off them.
As a result, either
- the obstacle can be bypassed by simply stating “We Take 20” (but the party waste several minutes of in-game time), or
- the DM won’t allow taking 20, or the players want to ‘save time’, and the game comes to a halt in real-time, as everyone makes endless rolls and assists vs an almost-impossible DC, or
- the PCs use a bull’s strength, knock, telekinesis, passwall, etc, and bypass the problem that way.
Being able to spend a smaller proportion of rage points, equivalent to a fraction of a full rage attempt, would encourage the use of more strongman stunts and keep the game moving.
[/end huge post]
“Get out of my way, little man, or I show you The Mammoth’s Kiss!”
I ain't asking any questions about what that is and how it is done. I think I'll just get out of his way.
Snorter summed this all up so eloquently that I can't really find anything else to add....
....except "YAWP!"
I don't think I ever played a Barbarian that didn't take atleast 2 levels of fighter to get those extra feats. :)
Nice thing about feats every 2 levels is that's not really as necessary now.
I think Snorter's post sums up everything so eloquently that I can't really add anything to it...
...except a barbaric YAWP!
“You left the tribe too early, my son. You were never initiated into the mysteries of the elders. I sense that you are full of primal rage against our enemies, and that is good to see. But do not forget there are so many good things in life to enjoy. Can you call upon the spirit of Grandfather Gibbon?”
<shins up tree in seconds; swings down with arm full of fruit>
“Hakuna Matata!”
You deserve to be injured in ways your mother never thought to warn you against.
In seriousness, I think the whole name discussion is rather trivial, and possibly indicitive of having run out of arguments with what's already been published. I don't know enough about the system to be able to say whether I like rage points or not, but I will say that the difference between "uses per cycle" and "points per cycle" is largely moot, so it really depends on playthrough (if, for instance, the "little boosts" cost fewer points or last longer than the full-out KRUNK SMASH!).
You still deserve to be injured, by the way. Just so you know. >.< [URL=smurf][/URL]
Cat's Grace
Bear's Endurance
Owl's Wisdom
Bull Rush
Lightning Reflexes
A Thousand Faces
Diamond Body
Quivering Palm
Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Eagle's Splendor
etc...There's a precedent for metaphoric names in D&D. The new barbarian powers aren't exactly unusual.
Maybe it's because I'm an old started-with-1e grogonard whose tastes are highly canalized, but I want descriptive names; names that describe the actual effect. Evocative names are for the characters in my game world to choose and use, not for my real-world reference material. That 3e adopted a bunch of such names was a defect of 3e, not something to be celebrated and expanded.
I note exactly one of those names up there is from prior to 3e, and "quivering palm" was (and is) descriptive of the effect. The monk touches his victim, said touch caused vibrations throughout the body of the victim. That is, the monk applied his palm to the guy, and he started to quiver. On the other hand, "A Thousand Faces" was merely (in 1e UA) "the ability to alter his appearance at will", and literally allows an infinite number of faces.
(And, well, eagle's splendor doesn't reduce the character's charisma to 6, and fox's cunning doesn't reduce intelligence to 2, despite those being the respective ability scores of the animals so named. We should have had six simply descriptive "Heighten [Ability Score]" spells. Grarrr grrrarrr grarr.)
Names are all we have to argue about until we see Alpha 2. Don't take that away from us, your Smurfness. That's just too much maturity to ask of an online forum.
QFS (Quoted for Smurfiness)
Excellent review of the problem, Snorter. Agree on 100%
Pneumonika: Naming is only a secondary thing. Biggest deal is the difference between rage points and daily rage. And it is HUGE.
Test: Smurf me!
Names are all we have to argue about until we see Alpha 2. Don't take that away from us, your Smurfness. That's just too much maturity to ask of an online forum.QFS (Quoted for Smurfiness)
But once the smurf is out of the bottle, it's hard to smurf him back in.
I am forced to step in to defend Amiri's honor!
Keep in mind that this blog post isn't intended to be a preview of Amiri's stats. It's a preview of the barbarian stats as they'll look in Alpha Release 2 of the Pathfinder RPG. Fans of Amiri's large sized bastard sword can rest assured that she'll retain said sword when she gets statted up in Pathfinder.
Jason keeps finding ways to vex me! I must now craft some sort of revenge...
Amiri sounds like one of your brainchildren, James.
As much as I'm a fan of Pathfinder, I have to criticize it for following in WoW's footsteps with "rage points."
(If I'm going to hate on 4e for doing it, I at least ought to frown in Pathfinder's general direction.)