Pathfinder would be greatly improved by removing implications of rape in the core rules. Material that's in the core rules implies that its true for most or all of a race. As Eberron has proved, it doesn't have to be done this way.
Given the seriousness of societies' blinkered attitude to rape
Independent News article and the endemic nature of this problem home office report (132 pgs) the "well there's murder in the gameworld" argument is specious - the two societal phenomenon are not comparable.
Settings can be tinkered with; core rules have a far more profound effect upon the consensual reality/paradigm of the game.
I urge Paizo to remove references to rape from their core rules.
Ya know I brought the eberron thing up and all but really there set up is ways diff.in the pathfinder world orc's are classic orcs in alot of ways so yeah they rape and pillage and raid and they like breeding half orcs there useful.So now we work against the nature of the world and say nope there mostly from good loving orc/human family . I just dont see a few thousands of such family well prob be more like 50,000 at lest . It works counter to the setting.
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Some people seem to forget that orcs are monsters.
I urge Paizo to keep genocide, rape, torture, STDs, drug-addiction, mutilation arson, paedophilia etc. in the game.
I also urge them to keep orgies, booze, one-night stands, adrenaline-junkies and stupid kids.
And ugly people, and grouches, and boredom, and inertia, and, and , and...
I want babies born with birth defects and women dying in labour. I want all the messy horrible stuff that makes the world difficult and complicated and makes people cry out for heroes.
And I want all of the good stuff too, charity, and kindliness and lives devoted to others. I want physicians and teachers, beauty and art.
I want bent coppers, and noble-hearted upholders of law - and I want them both walking the beat together.
Why all the hatin' on orcs, man?
All that nonsense about rape is just a dirty, filthy lie spread by jealous human men. You all know that it just takes some candlelight, the right mix tape, and a few whiffs of our musky orcish aroma, and human women just flock to us orcs. So don't hate me cuz you can't handle your own women. It's just sad that not only do your women like the sweet orc luvin', but that you aren't man enough to handle it and make up lies to cover up your own inadequacies.
Sorry, chump - once you go orc, you don't go back.
Some people seem to forget that orcs are monsters.
I urge Paizo to keep.....
Fine by me - but let's have them in the campaign setting, not in the mechanics.
Some people seem to forget that orcs are monsters.
I urge Paizo to keep genocide, rape, torture, STDs, drug-addiction, mutilation arson, paedophilia etc. in the game.
I also urge them to keep orgies, booze, one-night stands, adrenaline-junkies and stupid kids.
And ugly people, and grouches, and boredom, and inertia, and, and , and...
I want babies born with birth defects and women dying in labour. I want all the messy horrible stuff that makes the world difficult and complicated and makes people cry out for heroes.
And I want all of the good stuff too, charity, and kindliness and lives devoted to others. I want physicians and teachers, beauty and art.
I want bent coppers, and noble-hearted upholders of law - and I want them both walking the beat together.
Word!
Rape is about power not desire so my answer would be 'hatred'.Research does not bare this out. A woman's risk of rape goes up and down with her peak fertility and more attractive women are at a greater risk. It's a long-standing political mantra but it is not true.
Care to divulge this research? Because according to that only attractive females in their 20-30's get raped (which I'm sure is very comforting to e.g. all the elderly people being raped every year).
Which any kind of inquiry into the subject matter quickly obliterates.Also, rape doesn't only occur in what most people consider "obvious" rape cases, e.g. someone being assaulted in a dark alley on their way home. If I remember correctly, most rapes actually occur either in the home and perpetrated by a family member (spouse, partner etc.) or in another "trusted" environment (incidentally, just like most shootings).
It's fine if people have an issue with rape cropping up in their games, that's their prerogative, but it's easier to leave those things in the rules out you don't like than it is for everyone else to have to put something back in (generally speaking, not just concerning this topic).
And, again, orcs are monsters, they're chaotic evil brutes... if you want to portray that 0.001% of them who are loving parents then go ahead, but bringing such a statistically abnormality to the forefront as the "standard" concerning half-orcs is doing a disservice to the rest of us, IMO.
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First off, lets tone down the nature of this thread. No need to argue, we are all on the same side here.Mea culpa. Apologies specifically directed to graywulfe, because I did get punchy with him.
And thank you for considering alternatives, Jason. Whether or not they are followed through.
Apologies accepted. If I went to far in my post then I apologize as well.
Graywulfe
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I forgot to post this earlier, but thank you, BG for posting some of your alternate explanations. I think there are some good ideas there, but don't think that most of them are tennable to support a full race of people, but thank you the same. I think if half-orcs are a HUUUUGE minority in your campaign then tribute or diplomatic marriage could justify them, but not for a full-fledged race.
Semi-unrelated, the "Turnabout is Fairplay" suggestion puts me in mind of the 'roont' folks out of Steven King's "Wolves of the Calla".
Did I ever mentioned, that I would suggest to get rid of those half-something races all together and go along with the full ones?
If they are such a minority, why make them CORE(!) races all together?!
(The same goes for tieflings. *shiver*)
Let's take a look on Half-Elves. Every 2nd character is a half-elf. Why? Because they are cool and independent and good looking.
But still half-human so "I" can dream of being one.
Arr, that s*cks. Play an Elf!
The "story" of Half-Orcs is much more fun. Because playing one is also roleplaying interesting. But Half-Orc stats are just lousy in 3.5.
I would suggest, make the full races CORE and put in some rules or hints for the GM on how to handle Mix-breeds.
(I always liked the muls from Dark Sun. So did you? - then raise your hand!)
we do. they're called humans.
The very definition of species is the ability to reproduce. Essentially, then orcs, elves and humans are the same species, why then, can we not have an orc/elf combination?
No. They're called French.
Did I ever mentioned, that I would suggest to get rid of those half-something races all together and go along with the full ones?
I agree. My understanding is the 3e development team talked about dropping half orcs for orcs as well. I don't know how serious they were about though. For all I know it was a 2 minute conversation.
The very definition of species is the ability to reproduce. Essentially, then orcs, elves and humans are the same species, why then, can we not have an orc/elf combination?
While you may have been taught that in school, it is not the actual definition of species. There is, in fact, no single definition of species that is generally accepted among biologists; it is an open matter of debate in the scientific community. The "ability to reproduce" is a rule of thumb for multicellular animals, but not a definition.
As to the orc/human/elf thing, this is a fantasy example of a real-world phenomenon known as a "ring species".
For example, the English Herring Gull can interbreed with the American Herring Gull, which can interbreed with the East Siberian Herring Gull, which can interbreed with the Heuglin's Gull, which can interbreed with the Lesser Black-backed Gull . . . but Lesser Black-backed Gulls cannot interbreed with English Herring Gulls.
So, it is actually perfectly realistic biology for humans to be able to interbreed with both elves and orcs, but for orcs and elves to be unable to interbreed.
Half-orcs (etc) simply lack any backstory, mythology, ecology, or anything else whatsoever.
Well, you know, except for Tolkien's work, which has both half-elves and half-orcs, and the ecology actually does make sense by real-world rules.
The very definition of species is the ability to reproduce.
Actually, no, that's not true. That's a common fallacy that passes for "science education" in schools, but runs into difficulties when you try to apply it to real-world biology. The easiest counterexample is the ring species, which is going to be important below.
Essentially, then orcs, elves and humans are the same species, why then, can we not have an orc/elf combination?
Well, the biologist's answer is that the three constitute a ring species. These exist in the real world, and constitute cases where A and B and interbreed, and B and C and interbreed, but A and C cannot.
Half-orcs (etc) simply lack any backstory, mythology, ecology, or anything else whatsoever.
Well, both half-elves and half-orcs appear in Tolkien, and ecologically it's perfectly realistic (see above).
Well said GE.
I would just add, the beauty of DnD is that the DM can add/subtract anything they like. In light of that fundamental feature of DnD, is it really necessary to discuss this? Come on.
Let's keep DnD steeped in its conceptual roots, and concentrate on the mechanical issues, which seems to be the whole point between PRPG and the testing.
Best.
Some people seem to forget that orcs are monsters.
I urge Paizo to keep genocide, rape, torture, STDs, drug-addiction, mutilation arson, paedophilia etc. in the game.
I also urge them to keep orgies, booze, one-night stands, adrenaline-junkies and stupid kids.
And ugly people, and grouches, and boredom, and inertia, and, and , and...
I want babies born with birth defects and women dying in labour. I want all the messy horrible stuff that makes the world difficult and complicated and makes people cry out for heroes.
And I want all of the good stuff too, charity, and kindliness and lives devoted to others. I want physicians and teachers, beauty and art.
I want bent coppers, and noble-hearted upholders of law - and I want them both walking the beat together.
Future man your right for something to be able to breed together it has to be the same species.
But in this sense it is try to show the muteabiility of humans.
Humans will surive anywhere with anyone.
I think that is the orginal conscept.
But did anyone get my link?
I have no idea how to get a picture here I don't think it is possiable but take a look at the link and post eleven it sums everything up.
Well for my arguement.
Anywho take a look at it all of these views have aready been presented and as far as i see it comes down to a stale mate.
As far as I can see there is no reason to introduce the concept of rape in the CORE book.
The people who know it know it and as for the people who don't I can not see D&D being used as a tool of sexual introduction for youngesters.
And the reason I have my opinion.
I deal with children alot, and no I am not talking adults that act like though I do that as well.
Anywho the reason I have my opinion is because there are people out there like that young girl (I am sorry I can't see your user name when righting this reply)whom say a sexual assualt
There is no reason for them to know this or even have to think about it.
This is the disscussion for the Core Alpha release.
Now if you say that it is alright for rape to be implied in the core book I think were taking a jump backwards in maturity.
Have all of your nitty gritty, just don't have it in core.
thats my opinion.
Care to divulge this research? Because according to that only attractive females in their 20-30's get raped (which I'm sure is very comforting to e.g. all the elderly people being raped every year).
Which any kind of inquiry into the subject matter quickly obliterates.
I said the risk declines with age. I did not say it goes away.
There is a ton of research on the subject.
http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/THOUH/thornhill-preface.pdf
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_38/ai_75820043/pg_1
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/92013847/ABSTRACT
http://iranscope.ghandchi.com/Anthology/Women/rape.htm
According to "Rape in America: A Report to the Nation, National Victim Center, 1992". Victim breakdown is as follows:
29% were less than 11 years old
32% were between 11 and 17
22% were between 18 and 24
7% were between 25 and 29
6% were older than 29
3% age was not available
Peak fertility in the US is from about 16-22. The rape figures are skewed younger due to vulnerability of minors, but for women they do drop off rapidy as fertility decreases.
Here is another paper that tried to control for other factors and theories (older women engaing in less risky behavior, associating with older men, etc.) and still found a bias toward rapists choosing younger women: http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/2/7/1/1/p1271 15_index.html
Mike
Half-orcs (etc) simply lack any backstory, mythology, ecology, or anything else whatsoever.
This is the basic problem with Half Orcs, the lack of backstory.
Half elves make sense. Humans are attracted to beauty, grace, money, and power. Elves often acquire these things over the course of their long lives.
It makes sense that Elves, who live so long and grow so slowly, would be attracted by the passion and energy of humans. They see humans as being so full of vigor and adventure, because of their short lifespans.
All of that leads to a very classic love story, that ends in a half elf.
With classic orcs and humans... well there just isn't that kind of story written into the assumptions of D&D. There's just no place where an orc and human can socialize, fall in love (or at least lust), and share a fateful evening.
If a place exists in the world where orcs and humans live in relative peace together, or at least in a state of not killing each other, then Half orcs make sense. They should just all, mostly, come from there.
Half-orcs (etc) simply lack any backstory, mythology, ecology, or anything else whatsoever.
This is the basic problem with Half Orcs, the lack of backstory.
Half elves make sense. Humans are attracted to beauty, grace, money, and power. Elves often acquire these things over the course of their long lives.
It makes sense that Elves, who live so long and grow so slowly, would be attracted by the passion and energy of humans. They see humans as being so full of vigor and adventure, because of their short lifespans.
All of that leads to a very classic love story, which ends in a half elf.
With orcs and humans, there just isn't that kind of story written into the assumptions of D&D. There's just no place where an orc and human can socialize, fall in love (or at least lust), and share a fateful evening together.
If you put a place in the world where orcs and humans live in relative peace together, or at least in a state of not killing each other, then Half orcs make sense. A nation which is friendly witht he orcish hordes that roam the plains nearby, that sort of thing.
Did I ever mentioned, that I would suggest to get rid of those half-something races all together and go along with the full ones?
I would like to see both the Orc and the half breeds in the main Pathfinder book.
There are a dozen or so races from the monster manual and other sources that I would like to see made standard playable races actually, but I don't think that will happen. Many of them, like the teifling and assimari, don't fit neatly into the Pathfinder setting. But the folks at Paizo should consider printing them at some point so that they remain available for the 3.5 players of the future.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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If you put a place in the world where orcs and humans live in relative peace together, or at least in a state of not killing each other, then Half orcs make sense. A nation which is friendly witht he orcish hordes that roam the plains nearby, that sort of thing.
Doing this dilutes the mythic quality of the orc, which is that he is the near-human bestial "other" lurking on the horizon, ready to kill you and steal your stuff.
Orcs are supposed to be bad guys. That's why you slaughter their children in dungeons.
Half-orcs and half-elves are rather tired concepts today, especially half-elves. As noted, it's hard to make much of them other than one-off characters. Half-orc societies break down into discussions of who is 7/8ths orc, and at what "dilution" people still look like orcs. Half-elves are generally pretty much dead to me after Tanis. Cheesy, and said all that needed to be said. So, on one hand, I really dislike the concept of half-breed humans.
On the other hand, it IS a break with the opposite idea, that of clean, happy monospecies cultures and even countries, with no dilution meaning they become happy. To my thinking, that's even more of a stink.
So what can you do with these concepts? Well, Complete Adventurer had the terrorist half-elven Scar Enforcers, which felt kind of fresh. These guys actually felt that half-elvenhood was superior to both human and elven cultures, and aimed to kill and weaken those cultures for an ascendancy of their own principles. Half-orcs are given the "honorable warrior/klingon" culture where they are at all mentioned in novels, which feels like kind of a drag.
As for rape, it is a well-known fact that soldiers in foreign lands do use rape as a tool for power, and because they can. Nobody has a problem with this as the explanation in the case of half-orcs, but elves seem always to be happy-happy love stories. More realistically, then, both humans and elves would probably rape the other group if they were at war and had the chance. Perhaps even to the extent that this half-elven background would be the norm. Of course, both sides would CLAIM that love stories were the norm, but that's politics for you. The mothers of the half-elves would of course be heavily ostracized wherever they lived.
I don't have answers, but pretending that bad things don't happen only leads to the same thing: sanitized drek.
If you put a place in the world where orcs and humans live in relative peace together, or at least in a state of not killing each other, then Half orcs make sense. A nation which is friendly witht he orcish hordes that roam the plains nearby, that sort of thing.Doing this dilutes the mythic quality of the orc, which is that he is the near-human bestial "other" lurking on the horizon, ready to kill you and steal your stuff.
Orcs are supposed to be bad guys. That's why you slaughter their children in dungeons.
I agree Erik, you lose the mystic of the Tolkien orc the moment this sort of thing happens. They were an alien and unknowable evil in Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, creatures that lived in caves and were completely foreign to the surface world. They frightened the life out of the hobbit main characters, because they were bigger, meaner, and crueler then anything Frodo or Bilbo had encountered before.
The thing is, I don't think that mythic element has been in D&D for a long time. The orc of D&D has moved beyond it's Tolkien roots. Most players I know has played a half-orc or a full blood orc at some point. Everyone has killed orcs. Sometimes hundreds or thousands of them over the years. A race loses any mythic element it might have had once you've done that sort of thing. That's why I keep dragons and demons much more powerful then most monsters, because otherwise my players would lose all fear of them.
Most people don't even imagine the orc of Tolkien anymore which lurked in caves and couldn't stand the sunlight. They imagine the huge orcish hordes of the Forgotten Realms and Warcraft. Those orcs are tribal and war crazy, often with a strange sense of honor, and will come crashing down out of the wastelands to lay waste to everything you hold dear if you cross them. They aren't very mythic, but they do demand respect with an axe.
Tieflings and aasimar fit just fine in the Pathfinder setting, btw.
Excellent! I'm glad to be wrong about that.
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I agree that the text should be kept as is because orcs as a race are listed as "often Chaotic Evil" in the SRD. This means they are, most often, the epitome of evil without any regard for the trappings of a lawful society. I concede that this is not true all the time, but if the majority of the race is evil that revels in anarchy-then shouldn't the official rules reflect this as well. I can appreciate that ppl might have issue with the rules as written, but to have any sort of consistency in the game, you can't on one page say they are brutish, repulsive monsters and on another page make them out to be simply misunderstood.
Like others have voiced-I want my monsters to be dispicable and deranged so that my heroes shine all the brighter.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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There is a ton of research on the subject.
http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/THOUH/thornhill-preface.pdf
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_38/ai_75820043/pg_1
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/92013847/ABSTRACT
http://iranscope.ghandchi.com/Anthology/Women/rape.htm
All of those are by the same couple of guys, right?
I agree Erik, you lose the mystic of the Tolkien orc the moment this sort of thing happens. They were an alien and unknowable evil in Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, creatures that lived in caves and were completely foreign to the surface world. They frightened the life out of the hobbit main characters, because they were bigger, meaner, and crueler then anything Frodo or Bilbo had encountered before.Doing this dilutes the mythic quality of the orc, which is that he is the near-human bestial "other" lurking on the horizon, ready to kill you and steal your stuff.
If you put a place in the world where orcs and humans live in relative peace together, or at least in a state of not killing each other, then Half orcs make sense. A nation which is friendly witht he orcish hordes that roam the plains nearby, that sort of thing.
If you want to get really mythic with orcs, go back to the original Tolkien concept (in the Sillmarillion) of orcs as corrupted ("improved") elves, possibly with fiendish admixtures. I know the drow have mostly taken over this role for elves in D&D, but perhaps "orcs as corrupted humans" (touched on with the Sharakim in Races of Destiny) could be a valid concept. You could even link the two with the drow being the corruptors of the orcs, elven stereotypes of humans (nasty, brutish, violent creatures) being what they are. ;-)
I personally would prefer removing the half-orc from the Pathfinder core and replacing it with actual orcs using the same stats. This side steps the whole "rape is the most common starting point for this character type" completely. The parents of most orcs are both orcs, too.
It also lets the kind of player who wants a character with a "touch of darkness in his soul that he fights against daily" to be able to go all out, no half measures.
All of those are by the same couple of guys, right?
There is a ton of research on the subject.
http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/THOUH/thornhill-preface.pdf
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_38/ai_75820043/pg_1
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/92013847/ABSTRACT
http://iranscope.ghandchi.com/Anthology/Women/rape.htm
Exactly, so I'm a bit sceptical about the "ton" of research Rimlar eludes to.
One of those articles also concerns itself with rape-murder, which, to pull it back into this thread, doesn't exactly produce any offspring.Rape is an extremely nasty and damaging thing, but to gloss it over or to tuck it away behind images of e.g. daisy loving orcs doesn't do anyone any favours.
Like Erik said:
Doing this dilutes the mythic quality of the orc, which is that he is the near-human bestial "other" lurking on the horizon, ready to kill you and steal your stuff.
Orcs are supposed to be bad guys. That's why you slaughter their children in dungeons.
Earth's history is full of rape and murder happening in war zones and in connection with a lot of similar conflicts, yet we don't portray humanity as a 'near-human bestial "other" lurking on the horizon' as we do with orcs. When we then actually DO have a race described as such, some of you have issues with them doing the very same things that we humans have done repeatedly throughout history?
Doesn't make sense to me.Again, if you are uncomfortable discussing the issue for any reason (whether it's because someone at the table has gone through what the girl mentioned earlier has or something else), then you're perfectly free to leave out half-orcs in your own game. But the way things are, the rape theory still holds true for the largest amount of half-orcs in most campaigns and thus should be mentioned as the most likely background.
Or would people also disallow a straight up human (or any of the other "pure" races) who's parent was also raped?
Also, as I think someone mentioned, rape doesn't only occur to women, a man could also e.g. be held in a "harem" of a brutal female orc leader (or shaman etc. etc.).
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If you put a place in the world where orcs and humans live in relative peace together, or at least in a state of not killing each other, then Half orcs make sense. A nation which is friendly witht he orcish hordes that roam the plains nearby, that sort of thing.Doing this dilutes the mythic quality of the orc, which is that he is the near-human bestial "other" lurking on the horizon, ready to kill you and steal your stuff.
Orcs are supposed to be bad guys. That's why you slaughter their children in dungeons.
Here here. Orcs are savage, evil, and cruel. While I'm sure there is the *rare* exception, typically speaking, I imagine rape is the norm for them. Likely even amongst their own kind. It just fits the description.
I think people want to keep this for another reason. DnD 4.0 seemed to take the more 'family friendly' route, with making sure that their core rules weren't offensive, the little flash cartoons, more CCG like playing style, etc. I like seeing a bit of nitty-gritty in my core rules, and removing it I think, whether good or not, is a step in a bad direction.
My point is: I would like to have both!
It's no big deal to add a few lines like:
"Orcs live in nomadic Clans roaming through their territories. Clan rivalries are present all day. While most Clans prefer in pillaging other Clans or other races settlements at the borders of their territory, there also exist a few clans which established trade relations to other races. Usually trading precious furs, exotic reagences or other natural resources for goods of the more modern civilizations."
There's just no place where an orc and human can socialize, fall in love (or at least lust), and share a fateful evening.
If a place exists in the world where orcs and humans live in relative peace together, or at least in a state of not killing each other, then Half orcs make sense. They should just all, mostly, come from there.
Oh well, I remember that inn somewhere on the Borderlands where Orcs and us used to get drunk like mad! Things were quite peaceful back then (apart from a couple giants, but we'd band together to give them a whipping).
These orc ladies are a bit rough on the edge, but after a few drinks, when they get going, there is no stopping them!
We had much fun... ;-)
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The Bastard Races
I dont care what bannana plantation you are from...the Paizo half orc looks halforc-halfelf. Now if we are going with HalfElf- HalfWhatever then break out the Half Elf-HalfTroll so we have some thing big and tall that the NPC peasants can call a "swampelf" as the 7'-8' tall PC walks past.
Hell, the Fae qualities of the HalfOrc are sufficient to suggest comments of "Midden-elf".
A friend and I were discussing this thread face to face and we both came to the conclusion we want the flavor text about rape kept in the core book. This is the most common origin for a half-orc given the savagery of the default orc (not counting the orcs of Eberron or the Gray Orcs of esatern Forgotten Realms).
Also, we think that it is actually more likely for a half-orc born into a human society to be the result of an orc male raping a human woman. Most (if not all raiders in the tribes) are male afterall.
Secondly, in the case of a half-orc born into human society is most likely the result of a orc female raping a human male. Taking a human female for breeding purposes would be a drain on tribal resources more than a male would. After a certain period the human female could not do the same level of work due to the pregnancy. WHeras, the human male breeding slave could continue to work. Also orc female are more fertile than human ones and often have multiple children from each pregnancy. FOr a program of breeding as mentioned taking men makes more sense.
Adventurer: "We will protect your daughters from the orc menace."
Village Elder: "They're not here for the women, you idiots! They're after the men."
Does become a bit of a surreal image of orc raiders running off with several strapping young farm boys over their shoulders instead of the usual tavern serving girl. Logically, they would also take the apparently strongest and smartest they could...sustained raiding by the orcs may result in a village of physically weak and mentally slow humans whom the orcs eventually lose interest in raiding and move to another village.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Earth's history is full of rape and murder happening in war zones and in connection with a lot of similar conflicts, yet we don't portray humanity as a 'near-human bestial "other" lurking on the horizon' as we do with orcs.
All of humanity, no.
However, it is very common, both historically (Huns, Mongols, Vikings) and in modern times, to portray enemy/rival cultures/nations/soldiers as bloodthirsty/corrupt/sexual deviants. Sometimes it's not even enemies/rivals, but their own who are portrayed as such (i.e., Viet Nam veteran "baby killers").
FOr a program of breeding as mentioned taking men makes more sense.By show of hands, anyone besides me find Klingon women kind of hot in a weird sort of way?
*raises hand partially* As a whole they have that feral sexuality going for them, but the teeth are a major turn-off. Send them to a dentist first and then we are all set.
On that note, in a campaign my game master was running set in the Unapproachable East in Realms, my tiefling rogue had a penchant for orcish women from the mining camps and convinced his drow travelling companion...both decided there was a certain draw to women who could throw you over their shoulder (or through a wall) for a change. Tiefling had some odd tastes..orcish women, drow females a priestess of loviatar he sort of dated off and on.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Hey there all.
First off, lets tone down the nature of this thread. No need to argue, we are all on the same side here. As for the language, I have been thinking about toning it down a bit, if for no other reason that to make sure that there are a wide variety of options open to half-elf and half-orc characters.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If the "born out of violence" bit is kept, I'd suggest including the line "While many are born out of violence, some come from loving couples who tend their offspring in a manner best suited to their lifestyle" to the half-orc entry. There's no reason a human and an orc can't genuinely fall in love (or at least lust), when a human and an elf can.
Here's what I wrote on half-orcs for Fiery Dragon:
by Claudio Pozas
Let's face it: half-orcs got the short end of the stick when it came to assigning racial traits. All other non-human races get bonuses to skills, weapon proficiencies and more, while our boys get what? Orc Blood? C'mon!
So what follow are not one, but TWO half-orc variants. Half-human orcs (which are half-orcs raised by orcs) and half-orc humans (which are those raised in human society). Enjoy!
Half-Human Orcs
Half-human orcs are orc-human crossbreeds raised by their orcish kin. They suffer from most of the cultural drawbacks of orcs, such as a lack of education, a poor sense of hygiene and a tendency to hate everyone else. Since they're not as strong as full-blooded orcs, half-human orcs must make up for it through sheer cunning and malice, as befits a kill-or-be-killed society.
Half-human orcs generally become the scouts and hunters of orc tribes, since they have keen senses to balance their (relatively) reduced physical prowess. For a half-human orc, chiefdom is virtually unatainable, but they may become advisors and hidden masterminds among the even cruder orcs.
When away from other orcs, half-human orcs usually feel the call of their human side, which manifests usually as a sense of wanderlust or curiosity. But when meeting strangers they tend to show all the usual orc prejudices (specially hatred against elves and dwarves).
Half-Human Orc Racial Traits:
- +2 Strength. -2 Intelligence: Half-human orcs are physically imposing, but have a hard time reasoning.
- Medium: As Medium creatures, half-human orcs get no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
- Half-human orc base land speed is 30 feet.
- Darkvision: Half-human orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
- +1 racial bonus on Survival and Listen checks.
- +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks and on level checks to resist intimidation.
- Half-human orcs receive Endurance as a bonus feat.
- -2 penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy and Gather Information checks. Half-human orcs are generally distrusted.
- Weapon Familiarity: A half-human orc treats the orc double-axe as a martial weapon instead of an exotic one.
- Orc Blood: For all special effects that depend on race, a half-human orc counts as an orc.
- Favored Class: Barbarian. A half-human orc heeds the call of its orcish ancestry.
Half-Orc Humans
Half-orc humans are orc-human crossbreeds raised by their human kin. They endure a great deal of prejudice while growing up, and that tends to toughen them up to face the world. At the same time, their faster growth rate ensure that they are larger and stronger than most humans of their age, leading to a sense of personal power. Unless reared by a loving parent, half-orc humans tend to become bullies.
Half-orc humans tend to work where their savage features go unnoticed and their great strength is appreciated, becoming blacksmiths, sailors and hunters. They tend to be either too reserved and wary or too boisterous and imposing. But once one gets past that defense mecanism, the half-orc human shows all the personality ranges of a human, even if a bit short-tempered.
Half-orc humans don't have any special attitude towards elves and dwarves, but are so often treated badly by such individuals that they develop a dislike for them anyway (but mostly geared towards the individual than to the race as a whole).
Half-Human Orc Racial Traits:
- +2 Strength. -2 Intelligence: Half-orc humans are physically imposing, but have a hard time reasoning.
- Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orc humans get no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
- Half-orc human base land speed is 30 feet.
- Darkvision: Half-orc humans can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
- +1 racial bonus on Listen checks.
- +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks and on level checks to resist intimidation.
- Half-orc humans receive the Endurance feat as a bonus.
- Orc Blood: For all special effects that depend on race, a half-orc human counts as an orc.
- Favored Class: Any. A half-orc human can heed the call of their wild orcish heart or the adaptability of their human spirit.
I was going to say something that probably wouldn't be taken well, but honestly, if this bothers someone, I don't want to belittle them, but honestly, given the context of the game, I see nothing wrong with the descriptions of the origins of half-orcs and half-elves.
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If you put a place in the world where orcs and humans live in relative peace together, or at least in a state of not killing each other, then Half orcs make sense. A nation which is friendly witht he orcish hordes that roam the plains nearby, that sort of thing.Doing this dilutes the mythic quality of the orc, which is that he is the near-human bestial "other" lurking on the horizon, ready to kill you and steal your stuff.
Orcs are supposed to be bad guys. That's why you slaughter their children in dungeons.
Perhaps. But players of half-orcs will concoct elaborate histories of circumstances of their conception, parentage, upbringing, social adjustment, and how this shapes their lives today.
One of the half-orcs I play is a Monk, who has seen much destructive behaviour by the hands of humans, and considers orc savagery merely a result of their deliberate social exclusion from the privileges of civilisation. Whether this view is accurate or not, it is his personal view. He only gets 3 skill points per level, which he uses to max out Jump, Tumble and Diplomacy, which he uses any opportunity to smooth relations between humans and orcs. As a monk, it is his personal moral stance to deal ONLY non-leathal damage to orcs and half-orcs (humans don't always receive this benefit).
Another half-orc character I play grew up on the hard side of the street as a rogue, before pulling himself out of the gutter and following the path of a ranger. He experiences discrimination every day and blames his orc parentage for everything that has gone wrong in his life. As a ranger, his favoured enemy is orc, and woe any orc he scores a critical hit with his orc double axe!
These two characters have very similar stats (one copied from the other with a few hurried changes between sessions at a convention). I didn't want one to feel like a copy of the other, so I deliberately differentiated them by playing opposite personalities, and each has grown and taken on a life of their own, becoming two of my favourite characters. (One wonders what would occur should ever one meet the other?)
I guess my point is:
Orcs may have a specific history, culture and role as defined by the campaign setting, and this should be encouraged as the base-line by which everything else is measured. However, in a world as large as Golarion, with orc tribes bordering on human settlements, and adventurers moving from region to region, anything is possible.
Consider real-world ethnicities, where several generations ago, there may have been very clear distinctions between black and white, or latin and asian, or whatever. But as a result of several generations of colonisation, immigration, internet dating etc, the lines between ethnicities have definitely blurred. Many individuals now describe themselves as "mixed", and this can be observed by looking at the population differences in certain countries - Philippines (asian/spanish mix) or US States or suburbs.
Golarion may not yet have reached this melting pot status with regards to humans and orcs, but there may be evidence in some remote settlements, or passing unnoticed amongst the hustle and bustle of a large city, of half-orcs gravitating towards each other for comfort and to avoid the discriminations of others, raising their own half-orc families living by their own values, rather than the values of either human or orc.
I agree. My understanding is the 3e development team talked about dropping half orcs for orcs as well. I don't know how serious they were about though. For all I know it was a 2 minute conversation.
Huh. It might've happened, but I don't remember that conversation at all. Early drafts of the PHB had the seven races we have today. I remember the half-elf being on the chopping block early on (and I still don't get why it's that interesting to folks), but never the half-orc.
I do vaguely remember discussing whether the half-orc would get its own entry in the Monster Manual, though. I can't remember much about it, but I think some of these arguments were brought up then. I think if the 3E team wanted half-orcs to constitute their own subspecies, they would have gotten an entry. Same with the half-elf.
However...
I know that the concept of the "half-human" template was floated, because I floated it. Basically, the concept was "take half the variance from human in all cases." The concept shows up in the half-orc's +2 Strength bonus (half the orc's +4). I remember the details being nearly impossible to work out in abstract because a few abilities didn't easily halve, but I think the concept held throughout design.*
All that stated, I think a half-orc and a half-orc make a baby half-orc. They ain't mules, and even if they were, you can't trust Mendel's law of independent assortment anyhow.
Mike
*Not that I wrote a single word of the core books, mind you. I just stayed in the background and threw things at the wall.
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After a certain period the human female could not do the same level of work due to the pregnancy. WHeras, the human male breeding slave could continue to work. Also orc female are more fertile than human ones and often have multiple children from each pregnancy. FOr a program of breeding as mentioned taking men makes more sense.
Adventurer: "We will protect your daughters from the orc menace."
Village Elder: "They're not here for the women, you idiots! They're after the men."Does become a bit of a surreal image of orc raiders running off with several strapping young farm boys over their shoulders instead of the usual tavern serving girl. Logically, they would also take the apparently strongest and smartest they could...sustained raiding by the orcs may result in a village of physically weak and mentally slow humans whom the orcs eventually lose interest in raiding and move to another village.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Yes there is a certain evil logic to that...the Prospect of My Male Apprentice Wizard being abducted for breeding purposes sounds rather scary...
Then the Prospect of Human Women having to rescue their men from certain sex...