I'd say that they should also about eliminate Arcane Spell Chance failure, because divine casters can wear any armor, while Arcane Get a very limited list of spells they cast. At the same time divine know all their spells they can cast mediately when they gain a new level.
CODZILA still lives.
P.S. I agree completely!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Long live ASF!
And I think the clerics have their powers downgraded a bit. They're losing the 'traditional' domain powers from the SRD, and since their granted powers are now spell like, rather than bonus spells, they no longer can use spell completion items for those spells.
Long live ASF!
And I think the clerics have their powers downgraded a bit. They're losing the 'traditional' domain powers from the SRD, and since their granted powers are now spell like, rather than bonus spells, they no longer can use spell completion items for those spells.
I don't mind keeping ASF so long as clerics and druids are powered down to meet arcane casters in power level. Being able to wear heavy armor, with everything else they are getting is still over powering.
Maybe just make it "Spell Failure Chance" and have it apply to both arcane and divine? Some other modifications might be a nice idea, like giving clerics ability to wear light armor with no SFC.
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Maybe just make it "Spell Failure Chance" and have it apply to both arcane and divine? Some other modifications might be a nice idea, like giving clerics ability to wear light armor with no SFC.
Maybe when wearing armor, both arcane and divine casters must make a Spellcraft check with a DC something like 10 (or 15) + spell level and apply any armor check penalty to their roll.
Divine casters (or even just specific classes) could receive an untyped bonus to this roll to reflect the existing lack of spell failure for divine casters.
Edit: or maybe divine casters could ignore the first [x] armor check penalty rather than a flat bonus. If you let them ignore up to -4 penalty for armor, they'll still have to make the roll when wearing armor but would only receive a negative modifier while wearing heavy armor (or chain mail), and even that would be much reduced compared to arcane casters who can't ignore armor penalty.
Further Edit: or, just to give divine casters even less chance of spell failure, they (unlike arcane casters) would only need to make a spell failure roll if the adjusted armor check penalty (after accounting for whatever you allow them to ignore) is non-zero.
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Long live ASF!
And I think the clerics have their powers downgraded a bit. They're losing the 'traditional' domain powers from the SRD, and since their granted powers are now spell like, rather than bonus spells, they no longer can use spell completion items for those spells.
I don't mind keeping ASF so long as clerics and druids are powered down to meet arcane casters in power level. Being able to wear heavy armor, with everything else they are getting is still over powering.
Maybe just make it "Spell Failure Chance" and have it apply to both arcane and divine? Some other modifications might be a nice idea, like giving clerics ability to wear light armor with no SFC.
I agree. The "holy tank" syndrome has bothered me for a very long time.
Maybe a armor proficiency progression similar to the one applied to the War Mage (from Complete Arcane) could do the trick, getting medium armor and light shields from the start, then heavy shields, and finally heavy armor.Clerics with the War domain should get the proficiency for free - keeping a more "crusader" feeling - but their domain power should be adjusted to balance it out.
Maybe just make it "Spell Failure Chance" and have it apply to both arcane and divine? Some other modifications might be a nice idea, like giving clerics ability to wear light armor with no SFC.Maybe when wearing armor, both arcane and divine casters must make a Spellcraft check with a DC something like 10 (or 15) + spell level and apply any armor check penalty to their roll.
Divine casters (or even just specific classes) could receive an untyped bonus to this roll to reflect the existing lack of spell failure for divine casters.
Edit: or maybe divine casters could ignore the first [x] armor check penalty rather than a flat bonus. If you let them ignore up to -4 penalty for armor, they'll still have to make the roll when wearing armor but would only receive a negative modifier while wearing heavy armor (or chain mail), and even that would be much reduced compared to arcane casters who can't ignore armor penalty.
Sounds like a nice start.
An element that is being ignored here is the difference between arcane and divine spells. It is reasonable to restrict the wizard/sorcerer's spellcasting because of the efficacy of their spells (particularly compared to cleric/druid spells).
wizard: magic missile, web, sleep, fireball ... these are mighty spells and all low-level.
cleric: bless, hold person, cause fear, searing light ... (obviously, I'm leaving healing out of the mix)
Although cleric spells are all useful and have their place in a party, level-for-level, the wizard and sorcerer have WAY more bang for your buck. Thus, arcane spell failure is a reasonable handicap to balance the classes.
I honestly have a hard time imagining a wizard running around in full plate, dropping fireballs on the enemies with impunity (sounds overpowered to me).
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Maybe when wearing armor, both arcane and divine casters must make a Spellcraft check with a DC something like 10 (or 15) + spell level and apply any armor check penalty to their roll.Sounds like a nice start.
Hrm, some maths:
The ASF is currently 10% for leather armor. A base DC of 10 + 1 (1st level spell) means a 1st level caster wearing leather armor (no armor check penalty) with 4 ranks in Spellcraft (in 3.5), assuming ability mod of +3, would need to roll a 4 or better (15% chance of failure) to get the spell off succesffully.
So while I like my idea (of course!) it needs testing to make sure it doesn't make spell failure worse than it already is. Now if only I could get a full-time job dreaming up and testing new mechanics, my life would be complete ;)
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Maybe when wearing armor, both arcane and divine casters must make a Spellcraft check with a DC something like 10 (or 15) + spell level and apply any armor check penalty to their roll.
Ooooo!!! I like! Make it DC 15 + Spell Level + ACP! That's nice!
Although I'd say it's another reason to bring back Concentration as a distinct skill ... :)
Guys your missing the point of divine magic . it don't have arcane failure chance, and I wouldn't want to see it. much easy to only give cleric light and medium armor only at 1st.
The cleric spell list really doesn't work with the poor BAB, if you ask me.
One solution I used for the Cleric was to remove heavy armor proficiency, give them only one domain, and drop their fort save down to "bad."
Some of my cleric players complained, so as a compromise I settled for dropping the heavy armor and losing a domain. That being said, clerics are still very powerful.
As for the D side of CoDzilla, I just removed wildshape. Completely. With that gone, the druid still makes a very decent addition to the party while not quite being overwhelming.
I fail to see how Armor proficiency and ASF are the glaring problems with CoDzilla.
Persistent spell, Night sticks, rampant Divine Metamagic and a bloated spell list that borrows too much from other class's spell lists seem to be bigger issues (granted, some of this can be solved by limiting availability to splat books.)
I fail to see how Armor proficiency and ASF are the glaring problems with CoDzilla.
Persistent spell, Night sticks, rampant Divine Metamagic and a bloated spell list that borrows too much from other class's spell lists seem to be bigger issues (granted, some of this can be solved by limiting availability to splat books.)
It just seems that they get everything an arcane caster gets + they know all their spells, they can wear any armor and cast with no problem, get better saves, better skills, and even better hit die, then the cleric gets domain powers, and the druid gets wild shape. Why the hell would you ever want to play a wizard or scourer any way?
CODzilla still exsists at this point, and ASCF is just one Giant shot in the foot of arcane casters that doesn't need to be there.
I like the idea of dropping the base attack bonus down!
How about we give intermediate saves? poor but a +1 at levels 1, 10, and 19? Intermediate saves for fort for cleric and druid, and refex for wizards? What do you think of that for starters?
I fail to see how Armor proficiency and ASF are the glaring problems with CoDzilla.
Persistent spell, Night sticks, rampant Divine Metamagic and a bloated spell list that borrows too much from other class's spell lists seem to be bigger issues (granted, some of this can be solved by limiting availability to splat books.)
It just seems that they get everything an arcane caster gets + they know all their spells, they can wear any armor and cast with no problem, get better saves, better skills, and even better hit die, then the cleric gets domain powers, and the druid gets wild shape. Why the hell would you ever want to play a wizard or scourer any way?
because they get better spells over-all (sans healing ones)... there are some levels of cleric spell that I literaly have a hard time deciding what to prepare, it seems like one sucky choice after another... I rarely have that problem with arcane casters (Wizards mostly, I don't really like the socrerer class, I dislike the limited spells known).
because they get better spells over-all (sans healing ones)... there are some levels of cleric spell that I literaly have a hard time deciding what to prepare, it seems like one sucky choice after another... I rarely have that problem with arcane casters (Wizards mostly, I don't really like the socrerer class, I dislike the limited spells known).I fail to see how Armor proficiency and ASF are the glaring problems with CoDzilla.
Persistent spell, Night sticks, rampant Divine Metamagic and a bloated spell list that borrows too much from other class's spell lists seem to be bigger issues (granted, some of this can be solved by limiting availability to splat books.)
It just seems that they get everything an arcane caster gets + they know all their spells, they can wear any armor and cast with no problem, get better saves, better skills, and even better hit die, then the cleric gets domain powers, and the druid gets wild shape. Why the hell would you ever want to play a wizard or scourer any way?
No amount of damage a wizard can do can compare to a save or die a cleric pulls off.
P.S. Or un-die when it comes to turns.
ummm....wow im old, i guess. i remember when a arcane spellcaster COULDNT cast in ANY armor, period. and hitting them AUTOMATICALLY disrupted their spells......and people (including me) loved to play them. ignorance may be bliss.
we dont need to nerf the wizard, but we also dont need to upgrade them, the cleric is the focus, it needs to be brought DOWN.
if you think mages are a tad weak, let the player have access to the complete mage, it supes them up nicely
I've strongly contemplated doing the following to clerics, but never have been bold enough to actually do it:
1) ALL caster (including Clerics) suffer spell failure in armor, but create feats that can reduce ASF (or as this would be implemented SF)
2) Remove Heavy Armor from the cleric's armor proficiencies. That leaves only Fighters and Paladins with heavy armor giving them a "class perk".
3) Limiting clerics to a list of "known spells" like the wizard (possibly having them carry around a Canon, like a spellbook, with their known prayers listed in it - which makes the Favored Soul a more viable choice) to cut down on the "My List Goes On Forever" that occurs when you add in books like Spell Compendium.
3) Change ASF to a Concentration check modifier (perhaps cutting it down to using the Armor's Check Penalty, with an additional -5 or -10 modifier if you're not proficient with the armor).
ASF and armor proficiencies are on the bottom of the list of what's wrong with CODzilla. Psions don't suffer ASF, and they're quite balanced.
Yeah, I personally would give clerics up to medium armor with no SFC,
but I would drop their base attack to poor. I would make it so they would get maybe max 3 spell for each spell level.Wizards, 3/4 bab, and wear light armor or equivalent % with no SFC.
Wizards are more attack focused spells, so it makes more sense.
With all the problems with the cleric's power level, they get something else in the PFrpg that makes them even more powerful. They can now convert turning attempts into healing. I don't know about all of you but I think the ability to heal 1d6 for the entire party at least 3 times a day for a low level cleric is getting a little bit uber for me. It's a great idea but it needs to be toned down a little.
With all the problems with the cleric's power level, they get something else in the PFrpg that makes them even more powerful. They can now convert turning attempts into healing. I don't know about all of you but I think the ability to heal 1d6 for the entire party at least 3 times a day for a low level cleric is getting a little bit uber for me. It's a great idea but it needs to be toned down a little.
The problem with clerics isn't so much that they can heal, but rather what they can do if the decide they don't want to heal and leave that to another cleric. This was a good idea to replace the spells they don't get any more, and putting it more towards what they should be doing already.
My only problem with nerfing clerics is that none of my players really want to play one now. If they were downgraded, they would NEVER play them(I know, they're fools).
two downgrades that I could see working:
drop heavy armor proficiency -at least this makes them burn a feat
create cleric version of spellbook.
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My only problem with nerfing clerics is that none of my players really want to play one now. If they were downgraded, they would NEVER play them(I know, they're fools).
two downgrades that I could see working:
drop heavy armor proficiency -at least this makes them burn a feat
create cleric version of spellbook.
I have the opposite situation, my players (from group A) are currently discussing the 3 clerics + 1 roguish character approach. ;-)
However, i proudly support - as I've already stated before - the "drop the heavy armor proficiency" option.
Moreover, the (interesting) spellbook for clerics concept has been tackled by the Ultimate Classes, with a nice idea:
Prayer Book: Spells are granted by the gods on the term that the cleric remains pious and prays. Every day a cleric must read prayers from his book for 1 hour (this must be done at any point of daytime for clerics who can destroy undead and at any point of nighttime for clerics who can command undead. Praying allows the cleric to please his deity and keep his spellcasting abilities at peek efficiency. For each day the cleric does not study his prayer book, his caster level is reduced by 1 when determining effects of spells, unless he prays with his prayer book for an hour. A cleric can use his prayer book as divine focus.
With all the problems with the cleric's power level, they get something else in the PFrpg that makes them even more powerful. They can now convert turning attempts into healing. I don't know about all of you but I think the ability to heal 1d6 for the entire party at least 3 times a day for a low level cleric is getting a little bit uber for me. It's a great idea but it needs to be toned down a little.
I don't think that's so bad. But then again, I grated all clerics in my games the healing touch ability from the Book of Experimental Might. With that, clerics can heal without spending resources (but there's a limit on how many people he can heal - or a single cleric could heal whole armies - and a limit on how many times a character can receive magical healing per day).
ASF and armor proficiencies are on the bottom of the list of what's wrong with CODzilla. Psions don't suffer ASF, and they're quite balanced.
Wouldn't call them quite balanced. I do think lack of spell failure and virtual lack of tell-tale signs for casting/manifesting isn't that big of an issue. There's other issues with him.
I'd personally make it easier for everyone to cast in armour. I'm not speaking of one feat that lests mages suddenly casta way in full plate, but something that makes some armoured casting possible for all casters.
1) ALL caster (including Clerics) suffer spell failure in armor
As I said, I'd go the other way. Doesn't make sense for clerics to have divine spell failure. Plus, I'm used to see clerics run around in metal.
2) Remove Heavy Armor from the cleric's armor proficiencies. That leaves only Fighters and Paladins with heavy armor giving them a "class perk".
That I can see.
3) Limiting clerics to a list of "known spells" like the wizard (possibly having them carry around a Canon,
A Canon? To print out their prayer books? ;-P
like a spellbook, with their known prayers listed in it - which makes the Favored Soul a more viable choice) to cut down on the "My List Goes On Forever" that occurs when you add in books like Spell Compendium.
One way to treat the splat book issue is to say that clerics only get the spells from the core rules automatically. Everything else, they have to bargain for (research, or trade new spells for others, find someone to teach them).
And, of course, limiting access to extra books is always an option.
Personally, I don't see the limitless spell list as such a problem.
Persistent spell, Night sticks, rampant Divine Metamagic and a bloated spell list that borrows too much from other class's spell lists seem to be bigger issues (granted, some of this can be solved by limiting availability to splat books.)
A lot of it is more the problem of overpowered rule snippets than the overpowered class.
It just seems that they get everything an arcane caster gets + they know all their spells, they can wear any armor and cast with no problem, get better saves, better skills, and even better hit die, then the cleric gets domain powers, and the druid gets wild shape. Why the hell would you ever want to play a wizard or scourer any way?
First of all, wizards get school powers now, and sorcerers will get bloodline abilities.
And one important part about spells: Clerics aren't nearly as good with the mass destruction as a wizard or sorcerer. They get less area damage spells, they get them later, and most of those spells are fire spells, something a great deal of critters have resistances or immunities for.
Slay living might kill a single guy up close, but if he saves, you got nothing. Wizards might have to wait a bit longer until they get the finger (of death, that is), but they get to harm a lot of enemies plenty pretty soon.
Damage spells can be a lot more useful than death spells, I think, and clerics are seriously deficient in that department.
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The CoDzilla shenanigans happen not because the Cleric's bonus inducing spells are especially over the top. It happens because as characters get to high level, Fighters Don't Get Nice Things! When a Cleric buffs himself out at 13th level he's really just got himself a BAB of 13, a +6 Enhancement to Strength, a +4 Luck Bonus to Attack and Damage, a +2 Morale Bonus to Attack and Damage, a +10 arbitrary bonus to damage, a +3 Enhancement bonus to attack and damage, and probably a few other bonuses on the side as I haven't checked recently and I'm doing this from memory. And yeah, that's way bigger than anything a Fighter is doing. But it doesn't leave the Rogue in the dust. The Rogue gets an extra 7 dice of damage with every hit even if he is using cheater weapons like Acid Flasks. The Wizard can stop a room full of enemies literally dead with an acid fog.
Our self buffing Cleric is running up and swinging his wooden morning star with a +30 (or so) to-hit, and inflicting about 32 points of damage per swing. That's kind of cool, but it's scarcely adequate against the Storm Giant he is supposed to be meleeing.
So yeah, when we put the Cleric side by side against the Fighter we notice that the Cleric is much stronger than the Fighter. But we should be open to the idea that perhaps the problem is that the Fighter is too weak and not that the Cleric is too strong.
-Frank
So yeah, when we put the Cleric side by side against the Fighter we notice that the Cleric is much stronger than the Fighter. But we should be open to the idea that perhaps the problem is that the Fighter is too weak and not that the Cleric is too strong.
-Frank
Yes, this may be the case; but I'm in the camp of "things have een going upwards for too long, let's nerf something". While power creep ion PF Alpha i snt a real concern for me, it would be nice to see a trend away from "upward balancing".
I agree. The "holy tank" syndrome has bothered me for a very long time.
Maybe a armor proficiency progression similar to the one applied to the War Mage (from Complete Arcane) could do the trick, getting medium armor and light shields from the start, then heavy shields, and finally heavy armor.
Clerics with the War domain should get the proficiency for free - keeping a more "crusader" feeling - but their domain power should be adjusted to balance it out.
Seconded. I think that this, coupled with the prayerbook idea, would do a some good to help curb the "C" in CoDzilla.
On the prayerbook. I don't think it should be exactly like a wizard's spellbook. Maybe give them twice as many spells as the wizards gets to start off or something similar. [/needs_more_coffee]
Yes, this may be the case; but I'm in the camp of "things have een going upwards for too long, let's nerf something". While power creep ion PF Alpha i snt a real concern for me, it would be nice to see a trend away from "upward balancing".So yeah, when we put the Cleric side by side against the Fighter we notice that the Cleric is much stronger than the Fighter. But we should be open to the idea that perhaps the problem is that the Fighter is too weak and not that the Cleric is too strong.
-Frank
The fact of the matter is that the power line was established with the very first wizardly spell list. It's either a question of nerfing all the casters, or making the Fighter more competitive. I think the latter is both A) less work and B) more rewarding for all involved.
I don't like the 19th level Fighter DR bonus being reduced from 10/- to 5/-; The former does a lot to making them the force they should be at 19th level (especially for a single classed fighter) while the latter is a rather meager measure that doesn't seem to do that much in tests.
A few things that might need to be done is the nerfing of some cleric spells. Paizo can create spells of the same name, but have them do something completely different.
There are a few spells that have specific abilities that make the cleric unbalanced.
Spell that grants full base attack bonus.
Spell that grants increase in size.
Save or die/incapacitated/other wise offensive spells for clerics that are not purely evil.
Spells that do massive amounts of damage probably should be towned down, but not sure Paizo can do much about that.
On other matters.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the iconic characteristic of a cleric is to be a front line healer? So they do need the hit die, and the heavy armor, but they should get the worse BAB. Good fort save should be traded in for poor but add battle fortitude, ignoring heavy armor. That way they can be sure to be able to move up and heal, and are not completely valnirable in front lines to fort based save spells.
What we also should do is drop their spells to 3/day per spell level max, but give them an additional turning attempt, sense that heals not, at the point in which they would have gotten the 4th spell of a spell level. This enables them to do more of what they are supposed to, and heal.
Making clerics that are over powered when they decide to fight, makes people forget fighter classes and play clerics leaving one willing to heal. We have that problem in our current game.
P.S. I like the idea of a holly book.
My thoughts:
Regarding the cleric- Removing heavy armor proficiency is a good way to counter the slight increase in power-level from gaining the powers of both domains instead of having to choose one bonus spell from the two at each spell level.
Regarding the fighter- Let the DR 5/- from Armor Mastery stack with any DR x/- from the armor (i.e., adamantine). It is called Armor Mastery, after all...
My thoughts:
Regarding the cleric- Removing heavy armor proficiency is a good way to counter the slight increase in power-level from gaining the powers of both domains instead of having to choose one bonus spell from the two at each spell level.
Regarding the fighter- Let the DR 5/- from Armor Mastery stack with any DR x/- from the armor (i.e., adamantine). It is called Armor Mastery, after all...
I am sorry, but I am heavily apposed to the idea of removing heavy armor proficiency as it limits ability to do its designed job.
I am sorry, but I am heavily apposed to the idea of removing heavy armor proficiency as it limits ability to do its designed job.
I am curious... what exactly do you feel is the designed job of the cleric... because without spelling it out we might not all have the same idea of what a clerics designated job is...
If we go back to arneson/gygax the cleric did most certainly have defense (he could wear any armor/shield), however his weapon selection sucks (and before you say the Paizo cleric weapons suck... human clerics can have any one weapon of choice, halforcs get greataxe, elves get...etc) and his spell repertoire was more limited (certainly the 3.5 cleric has more offensive spells plus access to higher level spells than the original)...
I agree removing Heavy Armor proficiency would help. I'd also like it if the granted Domain Powers was reduced to one Domain per day. With the domain being chosen when the cleric prays for spells.
I will chime in with support for removing heavy armor prof. at start. It can be picked up later. A prayer book and limited domains could be good. Weapons should be incl. a bonus for using the favored weapon of the deity.
Even for humans.
I am still not sold on the turn undead while healing the living ability.
But I will keep watching how the cleric develops. D6 hd seems fine to me the fighter should be THE tank and no one else should come close.
On other matters.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the iconic characteristic of a cleric is to be a front line healer?
Hasn't been since 3rd edition. Casting healing spells in combat is generally a waste of time - monster attacks are much larger than most healing spells. The 3rd edition Cleric is a front line warrior who casts healing spells out of combat.
And while Andy Collins has said that it is design intent for Clerics to be better than other warriors because they are probably going to end up spending some time healing and that's not as good as other combat actions - that's a really bad design principle for really obvious reasons. After all, what people actually do with the Cleric is just spend almost all of their combat actions beating the crap out of enemies and outperforming the Fighter and then after combat is over they spend their remaining spell slots on Healing when the fact that it takes several combat rounds to heal a meaningful injury does not even matter.
-Frank
After all, what people actually do with the Cleric is just spend almost all of their combat actions beating the crap out of enemies and outperforming the Fighter and then after combat is over they spend their remaining spell slots on Healing when the fact that it takes several combat rounds to heal a meaningful injury does not even matter.
-Frank
Huh. Then I guess every game I have been in, people play Clerics wrong.
Either that, or you are making a generalization founded only by your experiences.
The fact that CoDzilla is an actual word indicates that my experiences are not unique.
However I do get the impression that you do many things wrong.
-Frank
Clerics wear heavy armor and shields.
Clerics use "simple" weapons.
Clerics turn undead.
Clerics are a full progression spell caster.
If you want to move clerics towards being "priests" from WoW, that's fine, but it is moving away from what clerics have been since 1st edition.
Also, this is an interesting trend that I've seen. Up until a few months ago, I had never seen anyone claim that no one gets healed in combat, only between combats, but in the last few months I've seen this comment start to crop up from time to time. Its not something I've ever seen in my campaigns though.
I've seen plenty of healing in combat. And, having played a few clerics and mystic theurges in 3rd/3.5, I know I've done a bit of healing in combat before too.
The fact that CoDzilla is an actual word indicates that my experiences are not unique.
That doesn't invalidate my point. Primarily because I never claimed your experiences are unique, or wrong.
However I do get the impression that you do many things wrong.
Like showing you anything resembling respect? I can agree with that.
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Cutting the spell lists to something more like 2nd Editions Spheres system might help curb some of the extremes, but I think this is beyond the scope of a backwards-compatible-with-3.5 tweak and more in line with a major overhaul of the Cleric concept.
I really liked Specialty Priests, and had a little spreadsheet with all of the Realms dieties worked out. Some had more spells but less armor, hp, etc. Others had smaller spell lists and looked kinda like paladins. It was neat, but far more complex than the 3.5 system of 'pick two domains, an alignment, whether you channel positive or negative energy, a god (optional), and your customization is now over,. Barring Domain spells, your priest of the goddess of beauty and cute animals is exactly the same as a priest of the god of murder and necromancy.'
The fact that CoDzilla is an actual word indicates that my experiences are not unique.
You're new to the internet, eh? ;-P
I think they invent more new "words" on the internet than they open new websites.
But in this case, youre experiences actually aren't unique.
Spell that grants full base attack bonus.
Spell that grants increase in size.
I honestly can't imagine my clerics without those two.
Still, it might not be such a bad idea.
Save or die/incapacitated/other wise offensive spells for clerics that are not purely evil.
What about offensive spells for wizards that aren't evil? Or weapon proficiencies for fighters that aren't evil? Or sneak attack for rogues that aren't evil?
They're not catholic priests. Cleric doesn't mean pacifist. If you're the deity of a war god, being a pacifist would probably be blasphemy.
Spells that do massive amounts of damage probably should be towned down
Nope. Paid too much for my block of d6es ;-P
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the iconic characteristic of a cleric is to be a front line healer? So they do need the hit die, and the heavy armor, but they should get the worse BAB.
Since BAB and HD is tied together in Alpha, this would not work.
A cleric from my understanding/interpretation of it's iconic idea of a front line healer needs to be able to come up to the front lines and heal, cutting heavy armor would limit this. Personally I think the idea of Hit Die and BAB linkage isn't such a good idea (what next, linkage between spells per day and amount of spells know?). Clerics are not supposed to be all that offensive really. So I say let that we should do the following.
D8 Hit die
Base Attack: worst
Weapon Prof: Light weapons only
Armor Prof: All, including tower
Max 3/day spells of each spell level.
(allowing them to heal more now) Additional Turn attempt at levels 2, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, and additional 2 at level 20.
For balancing factors: Require their god's holy book of prayer to prepare spells; and maybe even cast them.
Changing the spell that grants you full BAB for its duration just is too much and needs to be changed, but with these changes this might not be too much a deal.
Save or die/incapacitated/other wise offensive spells for clerics that are not purely evil.What about offensive spells for wizards that aren't evil? Or weapon proficiencies for fighters that aren't evil? Or sneak attack for rogues that aren't evil?
They're not catholic priests. Cleric doesn't mean pacifist. If you're the deity of a war god, being a pacifist would probably be blasphemy.
Clerics IN DND have to charge positive and negative energy to use their spells. So for the least I don't see a positive channeling cleric having access to a spell that can snuff out life of any type.
About the damaging spells, maybe they should up their spell level by 1 at the least. Clerics are supposed to be the healers, not the caster damage dealers. That steps on the wizard's toes too much. The only thing that now keeps the two classes apart spell wise now is that wizards can't heal normally.
Sir Hexen Ineptus, I do not agree with your changes. However, if they must be done, there are a couple of alterations that would need to be made.
Base Attack: worst
If Combat Maneuver Bonus doesn't get changed, then I would have to petition that they, at least, get a defensive modifier to offset this, or they will suffer trips and bullrushes preventing the iconic roll you define.
For balancing factors: Require their god's holy book of prayer to prepare spells; and maybe even cast them.
I would say Holy Symbol instead. And throw in a formula that bases the cost of a Holy Symbol off of caster level. After all, the more of your deities power you are channeling, the better made the Symbol will have to be to withstand that energy.