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after reading through the idea's I think my idea of the best way of doing things would be using the Pathfinder skill list and the 3.5 allocation method. I would say as someone who play about as much as he DM's that I don't care for making things cross class skills and I think 1 or 2 more skill points wouldn't hurt.
4. Hybrid System: In this system, characters would get a number of skill ranks equal to the number of skill choices granted by the Skills chapter of the Pathfinder RPG. Skill ranks granted by the first level of your class must be spent on class skills. Skill ranks granted after first level and those granted by a high Intelligence score at first level could be spent on any skill. Instead of the class skill/cross-class skill distinction, your bonus in a skill would be determined in the following method.
0 ranks – Untrained: Bonus = ability modifier + racial modifiers (or modifiers)
1 ranks – Trained: Bonus = 1/2 your character level + modifiers
2 ranks – Skilled: Bonus = your character level + modifiers
3 ranks – Expert: Bonus = your character level + 3 + modifiers
4 ranks – Master: Bonus = your character level +6 + modifiersThere are a few additional rules to go with this. At first level, you can have no skill higher than 2 ranks (or the skilled level). Many of the prestige...
This has to be my favorite option at the moment, I stopped reading at page 3 and will likely go bad and continue reading later, but I wanted to post now before I lost my train of thought.
I could honestly do with or without Skill Points, and this system allows for customization while keeping things simple enough that a DM can quickly stat out NPC's (I'm my groups DM and have issues with this all the time as math is NOT my strong suit).
I would also like to see the classes having a few more skill points as I've never understood why the Fighter and the Wizard got the short end of the stick when it comes to skill points, OK so the fighter really doesn't need that many as there's not that many skills that are Fighter oriented, but the Wizard?? they are supposed to be some of the most Intelligent people in the world and yet they have to stretch their skill points cut down the ranks and give up other skills they may have learned just to get 3-4 Knowledge skills out of the 10 that's there, and (at least in my groups) the Wizard is the one that always has the knowledge skills, everyone turns to the Wizard to tell them what this or that is, just like they turn to the Rogue to get rid of that trap, the Cleric to heal their wounds, and the Fighter to go be a meat shield for everyone else.
Ill stop my rant now.
[Edited for bad grammer]
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What about this small change to the hybrid system offered by Jason Bulmahn?
0 ranks – Untrained: Bonus = ability modifier + racial modifiers (or modifiers)
1 ranks – Trained: Bonus = 1/2 your character level + modifiers
2 ranks – Skilled: Bonus = your character level + modifiers
3 ranks – Expert: Bonus = 1.5 x your character level + modifiers
4 ranks – Master: Bonus = 2 x your character level + modifiers
3 ranks multiplies character level by 1.5 instead of just adding 3
4 ranks multiplies character level by 2 instead of just adding 6
My thinking is ...
#1 it keeps the formulas consistent, always multiplying character level instead of sometimes multiplying and sometimes adding, and
#2 it keeps things scaling up with character level (a +3 and +6 won't be as great at high levels as they are at lower levels).
Class skill allocation:
Please add the following skills to a class's class skill list:
Fighter: Perception, Knowledge (warfare or military & tactics)
Barbarian: Perception
What about this small change to the hybrid system offered by Jason Bulmahn?
Untrained... Trained... Skilled... Expert... Master...
There have been a lot of proposed "gradation" skill systems with "Journeyman" or "Master" skills, "hobbies," etc. To my mind, these are a "worst of both worlds" scenario: combining the complexity of skill points (with the added difficulty of remembering different types of skills and the rules for each) with the lack of flexibility of the Saga system ("you must pick some skills to max out. You may not assign individual ranks"). This combination seems sure to alienate the substantial number of people who advocate the Saga system for its simplicity, and ALSO alienate the not insignificant portion who want to be able to assign skills on a rank-by-rank basis.
Then again, someone once said that a compromise is a solution that makes neither side happy.
First, I prefer skill points to the Saga-style skill system in PFRPG. Just increase the number of skill points for Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, and Wizard from 2 + Int mod to 4 + Int mod, and the monk from 4 + Int mod to 6 + Int mod, and call it done. Rogues remain the skill-monkeys with 8 + Int mod skill points; bards, monks, and rangers are highly skilled individuals with 6 + Int mod skill points; everyone else gets 4 + Int mod skill points. With the skill consolodations, this should be enough, IMO. For people who don't want to deal with skill points, just use the Maximum Ranks, Limited Choices variant from the SRD.
Second, some comments on the skill consolodations:
Acrobatics = Balance + Jump + Tumble; Good, makes sense
Deception = Bluff + Sense Motive; I don't like this, it should be Bluff + Disguise with Sense Motive kept separate
Linguistics = Decipher Script + Forgery + Speak Language; I don't like the automatic language learning part, take it out and incorporate a Language (specific) skill that's a class skill for everyone with a three-level fluency system (basic conversation, accented conversation, fluent conversation) plus literacy
Perception = Listen + Spot, covers all senses; Good, disallow the Skill Focus feat and use Keen Senses (choose one)
Stealth = Hide + Move Silently; Good, makes sense and simplifies sneaking about
Theft = Open Locks + Pick Pockets; I don't like this, they're not really related and it pidgeon-holes characters, it should be Escape Artist + Pick Pockets
Add one more skill consolodation: Mechanics? = Disable Device + Open Lock; this makes sense because 1) they both deal with tricky mechanical devices and 2) they both require Thieves' Tools
I'll be studying the class skill lists for each class over the next couple weeks.
Ooo...Escape Artist into Theft, that makes more much more sense. My playtest group agrees too that Open Lock doesn't belong with Theft and is better suited into Disable Device. And the removal of Sense Motive from Deception.
Disguise would be much better put with Bluff.
Before I make my suggestion, I wish to point out that I am prejudiced by the fact that I like the Alpha1 version for skills and cross-class skills make sense to me.
About the problem of Player A taking 1st level rogue then multiclassing into the class he really wants to play... I believe that you should look at the players highest class. Then if he has other classes, the skills on that classes list is only a class skill for you if that class is within 1 level of the highest class. So a Rogue1/Fighter6 Dwarf may have 6 more skills than a Fighter7 but if those skills aren't on the fighter list than they're cross-classed.
A suggestion was made during our first playtest session last night in regards to untrained class skills.
It was stated that you should be able to use untrained class skills even if they are skills that require you to be trained in them. This is to represent a more general knowledge of your classes skills than anything. This means a wizard could make untrained knowledge checks even if he isn't trained specifically in that knowledge, it would still use the untrained modifier for the skill but at least you would allow you to use it.
In the second adventure I'm going to be giving the hyrbrid skill system a whirl I decided that to introduce the hybrid system off the bat may confuse the players more, so I wanted to give them a foundation to start off with.
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0 ranks – Untrained: Bonus = ability modifier + racial modifiers (or modifiers)
1 ranks – Trained: Bonus = 1/2 your character level + modifiers
2 ranks – Skilled: Bonus = your character level + modifiers
3 ranks – Expert: Bonus = 1.5 x your character level + modifiers
4 ranks – Master: Bonus = 2 x your character level + modifiers
Wouldn't the higher levels of this really mess with backwards compatibility? I pick up a 3.5 adventure, it kind of assumes that my 6th level party doesn't have more than 9 ranks in Search / Disable Device / Spot / etc. and under this system, my 6th level Rogue could be a 'master' in one of these skills and have 18 ranks in one of them.
This could lead to a power creep on the part of adventure writers, who may assume that a well-balanced party has a Rogue who has mastered his trapfinding skills, and end up with an adventure full of traps with such high DCs to find and disable that only one party in ten can actually pass that entry requirement...
One of the things that complicates building skills for characters in 3.5 is that if you increase int at 4th level from 13 to 14 you only start getting extra skill points at 4th level. I dont undretsand why this is. If you increase con at the same point the additional hit points apply to the previous levels.
I have no problem with giving a 3.5 character a whole bunch of skill points to allocate at 4th/ 8th or whatever level due to an increase.
Under the current system it means that increasing int is less rewarding.
My suggestion here is to allow the int bonus increase from to apply if gained at higher levels-- whatever the skill system.
*shudders at the thought of retro-intelligence* Gods that's just such a headache and a half to worry about. Think about what retro-constitution entails on a whole, a fluxating hp total. Now apply that to skill ranks.
*shudders at the thought of retro-intelligence* Gods that's just such a headache and a half to worry about. Think about what retro-constitution entails on a whole, a fluxating hp total. Now apply that to skill ranks.
I really do think this getting over thought. The idea behind the retro-active intelligence is to work for PERMANENT changes to a characters intelligence. This makes is similar to the way Con works with HP, but not identical.
There are three kinds of permanent positive changes that come to my mind: Racial, Inherent (like from Wish), or from the Stat increase you gain from leveling. There should be no radical fluxes since temporary things like a Head Band of Intellect or Fox’s Cunning do not impact Skill Points.
There are only two kinds of negative elements that I'm aware of that would have an impact: Ability Drain and Negative Levels (level loss). In the case of Ability Drain this is not to difficult to adjust and 'hopefully' won't happen that often. How many creatures Drain Intelligence?
Level loss from Negative Levels is a totally different issue, which should really be revised while things are getting polished.
*edit*
As to the logic issue of retro-skill points, have you ever actually gotten smarter? I can't think of any real world examples off the top of my head. I can however think of a Fictional (Sci-Fi) example. In an episode of Stargate Atlantis a main character (genius scientist type) gets zapped a super-speed evolover machine. Over the course of the episode he starts 'using' more of his brain and becomes a great deal more intelligent then he was. At the conclusion he's returned to normal and can't understand any of the work he did while super smart. It was all gibberish to him, but he remembered writing it and that it was important. I see the Retoactive Int in the same fashion, you get smarter and come to better understanding of your existing experiences (not just skills but the whole process of getting to your current character level).
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The prohibition against retroactive skill points is a matter of logic. You can't go back and have been smarter so that you would have gotten more skill points.
Think of it as gaining a new insight into something you've known for a while. An ah-ha moment. An epiphany.
You're not going back in time and pretending you knew it all along, you're just smart enough now to fill in some of the gaps in what you knew before. Quickly.
Then that's not levelling it out with retro-Con.
I mean what is the difference between the Aha! moments granted from temporary modifiers in comparison to the permanent ones. The only real difference is how long they remain. There are no real "permanent" loses to Int, even Drain can be reversed. Drain is no more permanent that a headband. So the only justification really justification for making it only "permanent" bonuses that are retroactive is for simplification that creates a double standard for a new rule that doesn't even need to exist.
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Looking at the Retro con/int arguement, I think adding Int retroly would be bad in the current skill point system but if you went the Alpha route, it would only be 1 new skill gained at that level. Just helping to support me transfering over to the Alpha system. I like customizable characters with the skill points, but I hate the book keeping especially since I think skills are on the third tier of importance.
John Robey summarized most of the changes that I think are needed. Adding some of my own comments and some ideas that are a little
different:
- don't make cross-class skills cost more than class skills
(sucks otherwise to put skill ranks in cross-class skill)
- still distinguish max rank in class and cross-class skills by class
(Rogue still better at Stealth than Fighter)
- get rid of skill synergies (Bluff too good for synergy)
- get rid of front loading, so that calculating skill points does not
depend on which class I took at first level (Rogue for skills is the
best option for 1st level in 3.5E if building say Fighter/Rogue)
- optional rule to have x many skills at max rank, rather than choosing
where to spend skill points is fine, but don't make this the default
(good for simplifying builds, but it reduces character build
diversity)
- simplify the skills by merging similar skills, and getting rid of weak
skills ... be careful with this: Stealth = Hide + Move Silently could
become overly cheap
- make Intelligence raises retroactive to simplify calculating skill
points
- limit the maximum bonus of Intelligence to skills (uber-Int at high
levels does not result in having every skill, though will be very
good in Int-based skills). I would almost prefer that the stat that
gives more skills be different from the one that improves magic, to
avoid this issue. Maybe just solve the whole problem by removing Int
affecting skill points, and giving say Int-based classes an extra
2 skill points/level to make up for it.
Regards merging skills, I handled the trade-off by making some skills cost more, with these all cost 2 skill points to increase 1 rank: Stealth (Hide + Move Silently), Occult (Knowledge Religion, Knowledge Arcana, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device), Nature (Knowledge Nature, Survival), and Perception (Listen, Search, Spot).
In the current list of Pathfinder skills, there are some skills that are much better than others - compare say Stealth to Knowledge Geography. You could easily merge Knowledge Local, Knowledge History, Knowledge Nobility and Knowledge Geography into a single skill: Regional Knowledge.
Then that's not levelling it out with retro-Con.
That wasn't the point at all. I'm sorry if that point was confusing people. The entire point of retro-Int was to speed up high level character creation, not give normal leveling a new benefit. It is far easier to total up all of character skill points and then divide them out among skills then having to go level by level with cost accounting.
Actually you do make a good point. In that case there isn't even a reason to adjust for negative modifiers at all. Makes it even easier. However nothing is truly permanent. Even race can be changed through spells.
On a related note I am now more in accord with changing class skill point allotments to:
6+Int
8+Int
10+Int
12+Int
No x4 at 1st level.
This addresses a possible pitfall with extremely low intelligence scores. As no score goes below -5 Int Mod this means that we no longer need to track which classes were in the negatives (minimum 1) when recalculating Skill Points. At the basic if you increase your Intelligence score with a Racial/Inherent/Level increase, then you would simply gain your Level in new skill points. It would also make applying Skill Point losses easier, remove your level in Skill Points/Ranks. For rare case like Ability Drain or being turned into a Baboon.
(The only creature I can find in the MM that can even do Intelligence Drain is the Ghost. Bestow Curse is another 'Permanent' negative).
I only meant to allow additional skill points from permanent chnages- this is a change I made to our 3/3.5 game virtually immediately upon getting it. On a couple of occassions it has been relevant and the player has got a whole buch of skill points which they then distribute-- I dont see it as being smarter in the past, cos in the past they were not smarter they just know as much now as a person who always had that int even though they are new to it.
Looking at the Retro con/int arguement, I think adding Int retroly would be bad in the current skill point system but if you went the Alpha route, it would only be 1 new skill gained at that level. Just helping to support me transfering over to the Alpha system. I like customizable characters with the skill points, but I hate the book keeping especially since I think skills are on the third tier of importance.
Yeah think i'm keep alpha unless they pull something really nice off and the retro int would work really nice with alpha. I am thinking of changing rogues skills to 6 though and maybe allow them new skills with a rouge ability called skill monkey.
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On a related note I am now more in accord with changing class skill point allotments to:
6+Int
8+Int
10+Int
12+Int
No x4 at 1st level.
I support this as well, although after building Jason B's fighter/rogue/wizard/arcane archer using the above points, it seemed like it might be a tad high. Or maybe not.
We should build a few characters and progress them through the levels.
Consider also:
4+Int
6+Int
8+Int
10+Int
No x4 at 1st
This might keep points down a little. They may not be as necessary with the consolidated skill list anyway.
Question: Is there any reason we always use even numbers?
Ok, I posted this in a seperat thread, but since this is the main Skill Thread I will add and link it here too:
Ok, it's sad, but I have to admit, that I don't like the current skill system at all.
My concerns in order of "severity"
1) Giving all characters automatic additional skills with increasing level is no good.
Make it a feat like in SAGA: to choose two additional skills or make two known cc-skills class skills in any combination (learn two new skills, learn a skill and upgrade the same or another, or just upgrade 2 known cc-skills).
2) The Fly skill is needless. While it might be a nice mechanic to be kept, every creature able to fly by its own can use Athletics for that. Flying through spells could use spellcraft instead (or something else). Or just a level-based check for everyone.
3) Actually, the skills list is no real improvement to the old one.
4)I personally prefer the skill point system. With one change: Get rid of the cross-class thing one way or the other.
If you keep class skill lists than allow any multiclass character to use all class skills of all his classes as class skills.
My skills suggestion:
*********************
Athletics (Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim and Running) <- "Combat Acrobatics" Feat to "unlock" the Tumble actions in combat
Craft (Craft + Appraise)
Deception (Bluff, Forgery, Disguise)
Diplomacy (Diplomacy, Gather information, Sense Motiv)
Dominance/Intimidate (Intimidate, Interrogate, Taunt, Weaken Resolve)
Handle Animal (Handle Animal, Ride, Veterinary) <- "Animal Training" Feat to actually raise and train (wild) animals
Knowledge (unchanged so far)
Languages (Speak Language, Decipher Script)
Legerdemain/Sleigh of Hand (Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope)
Mechanics (Disable Device, Open Lock) <- "Trapfinding" Feat for DC 21+ Traps (No need to make it Rogue-alone)
Medicine/Heal (Heal + Profession(Herbalist))
Perception (Listen, Search, Spot, Taste, Touch) <- "Empathie" Feat to Sense Motivs with a Perception roll (instead of training Diplomacy)
Perform (make singing and all instruments one specialty = Music)
Profession (Profession + Appraise if appropriate)
Spellcraft (Spellcraft, Use Magic Device)
Stealth (Move Silently, Hide, Shadow)
Survival (unchanged) <- "Tracking" is Feat AND Perception check! (or at least Survival OR Perception check)
Warfare (Strategy + Tactics, use Catapults and the like)
Short description:
******************
Athletics: While it might seem overburdened, I think Climb, Jump, Swim and Balance aren't that powerful skills. Making a character good at all those equally is no real loss to the game or "unfair" for any other character.
Deception: I took the SAGA approach here and made it a skill for fooling someone in ANY way. Forgery could be in Language, but since it's more about fooling than writing and could be used to "forge" other stuff as well, I put it in here.
Diplomacy: and Gather Info should always be put together. I think Sense Motiv just perfectly fits there too. While I could imagine a character good a sensing motivs but no good "speaker", its hard to think the otherway round. Therefor I added the "Empathie" feat.
Dominance: Is just Intimidate with some extra uses.
Handle Animal: Now this was discussed a lot in the other thread. To make it short: While putting the Training aspect into the "Animal Training" Feat (Besides, which might be a good Bonus Feat for Rangers) Ride and Handle Animal (calm down animals, steer a cart, etc.) just fit perfectly and also are neither a big loss to any character nor a big power advantage.
Warfare: The reason I not made this a knowledge skill is that it should incorporate active uses in combat (improve the initative etc.) and should be used to actively use catapults and the like.
THINGS TO THINK ABOUT
*********************
Concentration: I thought of making this a WILL-save, but there were certain concerns about this. Second idea is to incorporate it into Spellcraft since it's mostly used with spellcasting.
Third option, just substitute the concentration rank/bonus with the rank/bonus of the skill being used.
OTHER THOUGHTS
**************
In order to give all characters a little background and make Craft/Perform/Profession/Knowledge somewhat more common,
I would suggest to give every class a bonus skill out of all or some of those skills (Fighter: Craft/Knowledge, Wizard: Profession/Knowledge, or what ever).
2) The Fly skill is needless. While it might be a nice mechanic to be kept, every creature able to fly by its own can use Athletics for that. Flying through spells could use spellcraft instead (or something else). Or just a level-based check for everyone.
Its meant to be the equivilant of swim and climb, just like a fish still needs to make swim checks, despite living in the water and having a swim speed. And a spider still needs to make climb checks despite having a climb speed.
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2) The Fly skill is needless. While it might be a nice mechanic to be kept, every creature able to fly by its own can use Athletics for that. Flying through spells could use spellcraft instead (or something else). Or just a level-based check for everyone.
I'm running a playtest-by-post in which the players are being harpooned by batriding goblins. If there wasn't a fly skill, I'd still want the Athletics skill to spell out things like losing altitude etc.
One thing missing from the fly skill is a note that specifies whether or not the batriders should be considered to be riding or flying. I get that the bats are flying, but are the riders? If so, put some stuff on flying mounts in there. If not, make a note that the ride skill is used to ride flying creatures.
Then I have to ask: What was wrong about the way it was solved in 3.5?
(With Manouverability determining hovering etc.)
OK my thoughts this is a work in progress but lest use
skills at level 1 as in the alpha rules
All class have 4 skills +INT mod at 1st
Bards,Rangers and Rouges have 6 skills + INT mod at 1st level
Now also all Pc class get a sub set of skills chosen from this list
Each class gets 2+ INT mod of sub skills
List
Acrobatics
climb
deception
Knowledge[all]
Handle animal
languages
preform
profession
ride
survival
swim
now the mods for the skills are
*untrained 1d20 +Ability mod +racial mod
*Interest 1d20 +ability mod +racial mod +level
*Trained 1d20 +3 +Ability mod +racial mod +level
*Trained cross skills 1d20 +3+Ability mod +racial mod+ 1/2 level
Hi Folks,
i think most D&D-Gamers would like to have a simpler skill-system.
In my opinion, "trained/untrained" like "0" or "1" is not enough to make a unique and customized character.
I kind of liked the solution Star Wars SAGA took. Lets Face it, changing class skills are what really made the D&D3 Skill-system a pain in the Ass. Changing Class- and Cross-Class-Skills took a lot of checking and math to calculate.My design proposal:
-Every charakter gets all class skills and all proficiencies of the class he takes his first level in.
-If this charakter multiclasses into another class, he keeps all his class skills and can add one class skill per level of this new class to his class skills.
-But he only gets one proficiency of this class in the first level and every second level thereafter (1st, 3rd, 5th, etc.)
ok I posted this in your thread but dragodruid is correct we need to stop spreading threads out
not bad at all. heres a diff take.
-when you take a new class you may add a number of skills to your class list =to the number you normally get at 1st level.
-you do not gain a new skill for taking a new class only add that number to your list.
-you only gain new skills after 1st level every even level .
cuts down on class dip just for skills I think.
Two words: Too complicate.
EDIT:
Damn. @ Seeker. It was meant for your first post.
yeah I thought it might be was just working off my head though. I do like the Ideal but I am feed up with skill points for that same resone. anyone got any ideals to simplify it or just forget it?
[Edit what if its just 2 skills no INT mod for interest skills?]
Ok I would suggest the following:
1) Get rid of the skills every 2nd level and make it a feat instead.
This will make Skill-classes more fun again and keeps compatibi-you-know-what at hand.
2) If you multiclass, you get ALL class skills from ALL your classes. This might improve cc-skills to class skills.
(No need for making it every level, etc. "Make it nice and simple" -Bob Ross)
3) If your new class grants more skills then all of your old ones, you get the "missing number" for free.
4) Give every character at first level a free Craft/Perform/Prof./Know. for free. This will at more background feeling to any PC.
Besides, just one thing EVERYBODY should always keep in mind:
"Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
If I was to make a first level fighter like that lest say INT 12 he would have.lest make all ability's 12 to make it easy
Trained.Climb+5,Deception +5,survival+5
Interest:know[local]+2,ride+2
a rouge same stats
Trained:acrobat+5,theft+5,deception+5,swim+5,climb+5,escape artist+5 ,disable device+5,Disguise+5,appraise+5
Interest:know[art]+2,handle animal+2
WHY do you want the interests work different then the usual skills?!?!?!?!
It's just another needless complication!
Well its a thought I had.May never use it but I had it none the less it not as complicated as half the stuff on here or skill points .And it fallows the rules progression pretty well really.Think of it as a thought experiment.
Question: Is there any reason we always use even numbers?
Old artifact of the 2 points for Cross-Class skills. If we still use the Ranks/2 modifier for CC then perhaps we should keep it. However that really is kind of a minor point. As it stands those totals are only generating an extra 3 to 2 full skill by 20th level (with change). I hesitate to go any lower. This hits the rogues 1st level fairly hard, even with skill consolation.
As for building out some example characters, use Google Docs Spreadsheet program? That would put them online, editable, and easily viewable.
Some ideas:
An Elf Wizard 20 who starts with an Int of 14.
A Half-Orc Rogue 3 /Sorcerer 6 /Arcane Trickster 7/ Archmage 4.
That Half-Elf Rogue 2/Wizard 6/Fighter 2/Arcane archer 4.
A Halfling Cleric 3/Fighter 3/Rogue 3/Wizard 3/ Arcane Trickster 2/Eldritch Knight 3/Mystic Theurge 3 (I'm actually not sure this can be done).
Current Pathfinder skill consolidation?
This is the format I use for my own Min/Maxing in 3.5.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p2Mem876_vNw4nwuOcy82cw&hl=en
*Edit* This is the sheet I'm using for all the crazy builds as I work on them.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p2Mem876_vNxT4x6XsBm6WQ&hl=en
For people without a google account.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p2Mem876_vNxT4x6XsBm6WQ
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It's great being on the fence when dealing with a thread based on skills. So many ideas being flung around. So far I'm leaning on the side of Alpha skill system because of it's ease of use. Now if skills points could be as easy as this, I would keep them, but the math and metagaming involved in using skills, I don't see skill points as being easy to adjust to be as easy. Everyone has come up with good ideas so far to use skill points but they still have the problems that the old system had, multiclassing is quite a pain and maintaining your number of skill points is still a pain. Now Alpha system does have it's problems but I think we could iron those out easier than trying to get skill points to work.
I honestly wonder how Jason is doing with the revamp so far. I'm hoping we'll see an update on the skills in the next update.
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Then I have to ask: What was wrong about the way it was solved in 3.5?
(With Manouverability determining hovering etc.)
I think having 'Fly' as a skill does a number of things:
(1) It simplifies it. It now operates as any other skill check.
(2) It allows the player to get better at it by choosing it as a trained skill (though with skills automatically increasing, reflex saves are similar).
(3) It puts the information in the player's handbook.
(4) It allows for micro-adjustments to the difficulty check. My bat is trying to hover while its rider is hanging from the stirrup and a dwarf is trying to reel him in like a kite in strong winds.
This could be done with athletics or acrobatics but even then, I'd want the player to have to select it as a feat (FLY: You can use your Acrobatics skill to aid in your maneurverabilty while flying). It just strikes me that flying is something one would have to get used to to be good at.
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Question: Is there any reason we always use even numbers?
Not really. I was at one time thinking 5/10/15 for skill points which involved a couple of odd numbers, but it did involve an even progresion from one class to another. I think that is why even numbers are used. I think more people would get behind 4/8/12 than 4/7/9. The second just doesn't 'look right', since there is a difference of 3 between one and a difference of two between the other. Even if that were 'optimal' I think it would be changed to the first, or they would make a 4/6/8/10/12 and look for one class to represent the 6 and 10 that were otherwise unnecessary...
Balance and all that.
I'm glad to see that the idea for removing multiplication of skill points is gaining traction. For a number of reasons I think it is a good idea, and it at least deserves consideration.
The thing about any system that involves an even progression is that there will be a time when characters have fewer points than they would have had during 3.5. There is also a 'break even' point, and a point where they would exceed the number of skill points in 3.5. Since we know this is the case, when we look at what numbers should be used, we should be looking at that.
Some examples:
Fighter w/ 10 Intelligence. 3.5 8@1st, 10 @2nd. New System (NS) 6@1st, 12@2nd. By 2nd level the NS system grants more skill points for a low intelligence, low skill class.
Same Fighter w/ 18 Intelligence. 3.5 24@1st, 30@2nd, 36@3rd, 42@4th, 48@5th. NS 10@1st, 20@2nd, 30@3rd, 40@4th 50@5th. Because of the multiplication of the intelligence skill points, a highly intelligent fighter takes a little longer to catch up with the New System.
Rogue w/ 10 Intelligence. 3.5 32@1st, 40@2nd, 48@3rd, 56@4th, 64@5th, 72@6th. NS 12@1st, 24@2nd, 36@3rd, 48@4th, 60@5th, 72@6th. A rogue benefits from the new system from 8th level on if he has no intelligence modifier.
Rogue 2/ 18 Intelligence. 3.5 48@1st, 60@2nd, 72@3rd, 84@4th, 96@5th, 118@7th, 130@8th, 142@9th. NS 16@1st, 32@2nd, 48@3rd, 64@4th, 80@5th, 96@6th, 112@7th, 128@8th, 144@9th. It takes a little longer to catch up with a high intellignece modifier.
Of course, the other skill skill point classes work the same as the fighter. Let's look at the 6 (ranger) and the 4 (barbarian).
Ranger w/ 10 Intelligence. 3.5 24@1st, 30@2nd, 36@3rd, 42@4th, 48@5th. NS 10@1st, 20@2nd, 30@3rd, 40@4th, 50@5th.
Ranger w/ 18 Intelligence. 3.5 40@1st, 50@2nd, 60@3rd, 70@4th, 80@5th, 90@6th, 100@7th, 110@8th. NS 14@1st, 28@2nd, 42@3rd, 56@4th, 70@5th, 84@6th, 98@7th, 112@8th.
Barbaarian w/ 10 Intelligence. 3.5 16@1st, 20@2nd, 24@3rd, 28@4th. NS 8@1st, 16@2nd, 24@3rd, 32@4th.
Barbairan w/ 18 Intelligence. 3.5 32@1st, 40@2nd, 48@3rd, 56@4th, 64@5th, 72@6th, 80@8th. NS 12@1st, 24@2nd, 36@3rd, 48@4th, 60@5th, 72@6th, 84@8th.
Let's just take a moment to evaluate what these numbers mean. First of all, as can be seen by these numbers, characters with low intelligence benefit more than characters with a high intelligence. Low intelligence characters catch up to the 3.5 and exceed them in 3-5 levels, high intelligence characters in 7-9, for the most part.
While a character is 'weaker' compared to the 3.5 equivalent, the amount they are weaker steadily decreases. So, at 1st level the discrepancy is the most (with a 3.5 character having 3.5x as many skill points or so, each time a NS character advances, he gets a fraction closer.
Under this system, characters could choose to focus on fewer skills at first to maintain a high modifier (guaranteeing success) or choose a wider variety of skills at low level, but having those skills have a higher chance of failure. At low levels when the highest DC a character expects to encounter is 20-25, being able to take 20 will make it possible for 1st level characters to accomplish anything higher level characters can, only taking more time (20x as long). That seems to make sense.
At higher levels, characters will gain 'additional skills'. Since they'll be getting slightly more skill points per level, they will eventually max out those skills, even at level +5.
For example, a rogue at 15th level with 10 Intelligence has 180 Skill points (15+12). In 3.5 such a rogue could have 18 skills with a modifier of +18. Allowing him a modifier of +20 (level +5). Taking 20 ranks in 8 skills (the number a 3.5 rogue would get) leaves 20 skill points left over. That means our 15th level rogue has had a chance to 'super-max' his 'eight starting skills' and pick up a 9th skill and master it while adventuring. This means that the skills you choose at 1st level you're not going to be 'locked into' feeling like you can never advance it enough to make it worthwhile if you pick it up late in your career (8th level or so).
This also has the advantage of allowing different characters to choose how they advance. Three different simple styles are immediately possible. Option 1 - choose skills equal to your starting skills at 1st level. Your bonus will always equal your character level. (This works out perfectly assuming no multi-classing). Option 2, choose x number of skills that are most important to you. Attempt to max out these skills, and when they you eventually have spare ranks, pick up a new skill. Option 3 - Choose the variety of skills you want, and the number of ranks in each skill. Each time you advance a level distribute the skill points as you see fit. If you start at a higher level, you can simply do this all in one step (instead of level by level in 3.5). This allows a character to choose any combination of skills quickly and easily, and gives even more flexibility than the 3.5 skill system.
This is a good system. It is a simple system. Other than the fact that there are some levels with fewer skill points than 3.5, I don't really see a problem. That one 'problem' isn't really a problem in my mind, but more of a solution to an existing problem with 3.5. So, I'm curious what other objections people have to it.
This is a good system. It is a simple system. Other than the fact that there are some levels with fewer skill points than 3.5, I don't really see a problem. That one 'problem' isn't really a problem in my mind, but more of a solution to an existing problem with 3.5. So, I'm curious what other objections people have to it.
Looks good, really, and is mechanically sound.
Only problem I have with it, and I'm honestly not doing this to be contrary, is that it screws with my images of how people arrive at 1st level. Basically, characters learn as much after reaching 2nd level as they have reached 1st...and the same goes for every levely after 2nd. So basically, reaching 1st level couldn't have taken that long either. That's already all. Not much, to be honest, and I could either live with it, or adapt back to the old system. Just wanted to answer your question. :)
And yeah, in case this gets asked...I've offered Downtime skill training since I found good rules for that in the Iron Kingdoms World Guide. ;) For those characters who want to invest some more time and money into studying.
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I agree. I think the streamlined skill point system is coming along nicely.
For example, a rogue at 15th level with 10 Intelligence has 180 Skill points ...
The way you started this sentence game me an idea. One of our goals seems to be to get skill ranks to work the same for all classes and at all levels - no special bump at 1st, no 1/2 ranks for cross-class skills (although I still favor cross-class penalties or at least caps), retroactive Int bonuses, etc. You wouldn't notice it as you level up one level at a time, but for anyone creating a higher-level character, you'd really be dealing with one big pool of skill points that all work the same way. Add in all different sources [24 from 2 levels of rogue, 18 from 3 levels of fighter, +2 Int bonus x 5 levels = 52 points] and it doesn't matter how you spend them.
Why not list a characters total skill points along with all of her skill ranks. Something like this:
Skills (52)
* Acrobatics 8
* Appraise 4
* Deception 8
* Disable Devices 8
* Open Locks 8
* Perception 8
* Survival 8
It would allow for easier double checking by characters and DMs, and with NPCs that appear in adventures, it would be really easy to move a few points around, add a new skill here or there, and then check to make sure the points still add up to 52. Most NPCs will probably come max'ed out anyway, but as a DM I could take 2 points of Survival and add 2 points of Profession (baker) if I wanted to, as long as it still adds up to 52. I know I can do this without printing the point total on every NPC, but it might make it a little easier. Just a thought.
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Only problem I have with it, and I'm honestly not doing this to be contrary, is that it screws with my images of how people arrive at 1st level. Basically, characters learn as much after reaching 2nd level as they have reached 1st...and the same goes for every levely after 2nd. So basically, reaching 1st level couldn't have taken that long either. That's already all. Not much, to be honest, and I could either live with it, or adapt back to the old system. Just wanted to answer your question. :)
I see where you're coming from on that point, but after some thought I have to disagree for a couple reasons. First, a character is only awarded 'class' skill points at first level. So, even though they may have begun on their 'career' relatively recently, the skill points don't represent the kinds of things they would have been learning from a very young age, which probably didn't have much to do with roguing, or whatever it is their class skills were. So, considering that it already fails to address what they were learning from the age of 10, or 8 or six, this doesn't seem a big concern.
The fact that it doesn't repersent these skills well in 3.5 or at all in my system works out okay for me. While it can certainly be argued that the things that you learned as a child playing, or in school from a young age are 'skills' in the D&D sense, they may very well be too basic to really 'count'. For example, the skill represented by knowledge (geography) might be more along the line of what you would expect from a college education than from 3rd grade. Thus, anything you would have learned from a young age can be represented by the fact that anything with a DC of less than 10 (common knowledge) is something you're allowed to make a check for. Thus, no ranks in Knowledge (history) might allow you to realize that Abraham Lincoln was the 16th president and was president during the American Civil War. A rank in knowledge history might give additional information, including the fact that he was a Republican, that he was assassinated after winning a second term in Ford's theater. Additional ranks help you know more and more information, dates of major events, content of speeches, opponents, relationships with generals, etc, etc, etc.
So, I think there is an argument for an even progression of spells to represent the idea of starting your 'adult career', and differentiating it from the childish pastimes. All children climb trees, but how many learn mountain climbing, including the use of ropes, pitons, etc.
So, I think that a system that took into account pre-adolescent learning might be better in some ways, but since the 3.5 system doesn't do that well anyway, and for the sake of ease of play, an even progression might be best...
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Why not list a characters total skill points along with all of her skill ranks. Something like this:
Sorry - missed your post when I was posting mine. I'm a slow writer when I'm watching my baby. In any case, I like that idea.
Skills (52) Perception +15(10), Surviva +15(10) etc...
That does take a little more space when doing the stat block, but it isn't too bad. If the only bonuses are for ability modifier and racial bonuses, they wouldn't be too hard to figure out from just a stat block.
It might also be easier to see if situational modifiers need to be applied or should be (elves and vision based perception checks, for instance).
I like the Meepo version the best so far. I will offer some comments:
I am starting to like getting rid of x4 at first level. The main thing to address here is DCs ***. I like the 6/8/10/12 progression.
I like changing max ranks to +5.
Continue tweaking the new skill list.
Keep the new alpha system(or something like it) for NPCs and monsters. Simple for DM, leave the complexity for the players.
Int bonus apply retro: yes please. There is no way a wizard will not replace/heal any lost Int. Make the change at next level-up.
Eliminate synergy bonuses.
Add racial/class bonus.