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This is just a spitball idea for fixing the inherent nerf in multiclassing.
Effective Base Class Level
* A multiclassed character may add 1/2 of all other class levels to each class for class abilities, caster level, etc.
* These bonus levels do not apply to hit dice, BAB, or saves.
* The number of bonus levels a character could receive in any class would be capped at a number equal to the class level. IE, the EBCL in any class would be no more than twice the Actual Base Class Level.
* Prestige Classes do not benefit from EBCLs. However, levels in Prestige Classes would be included in determining the EBCLs of the character's base classes.
Example 1: A Rog5/Sor5 would have the abilities of a Rog7 (such as sneak attack damage) and the spellcasting of a Sor7.
Example 2: A Ftr1/Clr1/Wiz1/Rog1 would have the class abilities of a Ftr2/Clr2/Wiz2/Rog2. As soon as this character purchased the second level in Ftr, his effective Ftr level would increase to 3. If he then picked up the second level of Clr, his effective Ftr level would increase to 4.
Example 3: A Wiz8 picks up one actual level of Rog. He would gain EBCL of Rog2 (capped). He picks up another actual level of Rog, and now his EBCLs are Wiz9/Rog4 (his actual levels are Wiz8/Rog2).
I'm sure there are some huge problems with this idea. What do people think?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm
Check that out. Basically what you're saying. I'd want to see three different ratings, Martial, Arcane and Divine. It would apply to how effective spells or special abilities are, but not actually add new ones.
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http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm
Check that out. Basically what you're saying. I'd want to see three different ratings, Martial, Arcane and Divine. It would apply to how effective spells or special abilities are, but not actually add new ones.
I wouldn't use it as written (the third column is too weak for synergy) but it is interesting as a basis for another idea. Having Martial, Arcane, and Divine ratings is a good idea.
Yeah, I use full, 3/4ths and 1/2.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Speaking of tweaking multiclass - I would love to see stacking favored save bonuses (the +2 at 1st level) vanish into the ether. As it stands, casters with prestige classes and combat mutts wind up with the same favored same two or more times. It artificially weakens single-classed characters.
I'd support reduced (but present) advancement for casting levels from non-casting classes.
Yeah and also you maybe shouldn't get the full weapon and armor proficiencies. You should get proficiency in one weapon the class you're multiclassing into is proficient in, go up on level of armor proficiency if it has higher armor, and maybe shield proficiency. It doesn't makes sense to just suddenly learn how to wear plate and tower shields by multiclassing. Learning it gradually makes much more sense
It's really funny, but what's proposed sounds very reminiscent of the wacked out pre 3.0 multiclassing rules where you take the averages of your classes and all that nonsense. As someone who has always multiclassed a lot, I found the 3.0 multiclassing rules to be a dream come true. However, after years of playing I realized that spellcasters really get the shaft when multiclassing, much more than any other class.
So, maybe going back to some more akin to the old multiclassing might be in order. It hurts me to type that, but it might be true.
I'll have to really digest these ideas, but I know that one of my personal biggest gripes with 3.x is how quickly multiclass spellcasters fall behind. I haven't found it to be as bad with other classes, but spellcasters quick become rather worthless if they multiclass. Even just raising their highest spell level would be great (like the Bo9S multiclassing rules). Even if they have fewer spells, as long as they aren't as far behind in highest spell level, they aren't so worthless.
Arcana Unearthed/Evolved has a perfect system, but having all classes basically casting the same and stacking feels less core D&D to me. It's great for a particular world, but as core D&D it would feel odd if clerics and wizards did basically the same thing, just with a few selections particular to themselves. But having progression being completely separate like in 3.x, then a wizard/cleric character isn't just behind a bit on spellcasting, they become quickly worthless unless you introduce some sort of patch like the mystic theurge rather than fixing the underlying problem.
But whatever system is used, I greatly encourage addressing multiclassing, especially with spellcasters.
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A few thoughts on multiclassing, badly organized as I'm half asleep.
I like multiclassing. I'm not a specialist kinda guy. There absolutely shouldn't be a penalty to multiclass, experience or otherwise.
Nerf in multiclassing? You're kidding right?
Everyone wants their cake and to eat it. Full or highest level spell progression while taking a level of fighter? Uh that'd be the duskblade, I'm playing one and yes it's broken. There's no reason to take sorcerer or fighter anymore as you can have both at the same time. Not cool.
Ooo I know double progression, cleric/wizard same time. Mystic thurge, munchkin favorite. Should be resigned back to the layer of the abyss that spawned it.
In 3.x it's not worth riding a class all the way to high level to get a cool 17th or 20th level power. The versatility and benefits I get on the path to those high levels far outweighs the backloaded uber power or apotheosis BS at the end of a class progression.
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There is a feat (practiced spellcaster) that improves the level dependent aspects of your spells, but it certainly does not grant higher level spell slots.
Your suggestion is that a Fighter 5/Wizard 5 should be able to cast spells like a 7th level wizard (4th level spells instead of 3rd level spells for a normal Wizard 5). A straight wizard (10th level) would have 5th level spells.
I honestly don't think it is a bad concept, but the 1/2 level is probably not right. Only having spells 1 level lower than a regular wizard is probably not much of a handicap considering the benefits of the 5 levels of fighter - and lets face it - highest level spell means more than spells per day of your lower level spells.
That said, I don't think it is an entirely bad idea. I don't think that it will get play in the Pathfinder RPG, but something like 1/4 might work. Or you can assign one of your classes to get the benefit, but only one class.
So a rogue 5/wizard 5 should not have 7th level sneak attack and 7th level spell casting - but maybe 5th level sneak and 7th level spells isn't TOO broken.
Maybe splitting the difference - 1/3 of levels and you apply it to only 1 class. So, a Rogue 5/Wizard 5 could choose to have level dependent abilities of a 6th level rogue or a 6th level wizard, but not both. As a Rogue 6/Wizard 5 they could be counted as a 7th level wizard for the purpose of spell casting.
Just a thought.
Your suggestion is that a Fighter 5/Wizard 5 should be able to cast spells like a 7th level wizard (4th level spells instead of 3rd level spells for a normal Wizard 5). A straight wizard (10th level) would have 5th level spells.I honestly don't think it is a bad concept, but the 1/2 level is probably not right. Only having spells 1 level lower than a regular wizard is probably not much of a handicap considering the benefits of the 5 levels of fighter - and lets face it - highest level spell means more than spells per day of your lower level spells.
That said, I don't think it is an entirely bad idea. I don't think that it will get play in the Pathfinder RPG, but something like 1/4 might work. Or you can assign one of your classes to get the benefit, but only one class.
So a rogue 5/wizard 5 should not have 7th level sneak attack and 7th level spell casting - but maybe 5th level sneak and 7th level spells isn't TOO broken.
Maybe splitting the difference - 1/3 of levels and you apply it to only 1 class. So, a Rogue 5/Wizard 5 could choose to have level dependent abilities of a 6th level rogue or a 6th level wizard, but not both. As a Rogue 6/Wizard 5 they could be counted as a 7th level wizard for the purpose of spell casting.
Just a thought.
I actually agree with DeadDmWalking here and would only like to add a suggestion that if favored class for race is being used then if that class is the "dominant" class use the 1/2 if the class isn't favored use the 1/3rd in stead
I honestly don't think it is a bad concept, but the 1/2 level is probably not right. Only having spells 1 level lower than a regular wizard is probably not much of a handicap considering the benefits of the 5 levels of fighter - and lets face it - highest level spell means more than spells per day of your lower level spells.That said, I don't think it is an entirely bad idea. I don't think that it will get play in the Pathfinder RPG, but something like 1/4 might work. Or you can assign one of your classes to get the benefit, but only one class.
So a rogue 5/wizard 5 should not have 7th level sneak attack and 7th level spell casting - but maybe 5th level sneak and 7th level spells isn't TOO broken.
Maybe splitting the difference - 1/3 of levels and you apply it to only 1 class. So, a Rogue 5/Wizard 5 could choose to have level dependent abilities of a 6th level rogue or a 6th level wizard, but not both. As a Rogue 6/Wizard 5 they could be counted as a 7th level wizard for the purpose of spell casting.
Just a thought.
I actually agree with DeadDmWalking here and would only like to add a suggestion that if favored class for race is being used then if that class is the dominant class use the 1/2 (or 1/3 if you prefer) and the main class isn't favored use the 1/3rd (1/4).
Now are we talking about actual class abilities here? Such that an Effective Fighter Level 5 would have 3 Bonus Fighter feats, 1st Armory Mastery, 1st Weapon Mastery. I just don't know if I like this. Certainly there must be a feat(s) expenditure and not built into the system. What does this do for meeting requirements of Prestige Classes? Are Prestige Classes added to this calculation?
I'm going to have to stop and think hard about this suggestion but right now it isn't sitting right with me, even being the avid multiclasser I am. I guess part of that is my meta-game-disgust of most caster prestige class that give a free pass on spell casting. As a player I love them for the free lunch but they really did harm single classed casters.
Guess I'm agreeing with Alex Draconis. What Nerf? Granted there are some class combinations that don't work quite as well as others but does that really mean?
I do agree with the suggestion to Stack class levels that have same progression in BAB and Saves, for calculating the bonus from that progression. That will clean up many of oddities in multi-classing. It's one I was going implement in my own hacked-up rewrite before the Paizo's announcement.
Removing the EXP penalty and instituting a benefit bases favored class system, +1 Hp per class level is decent, also should make the list of alterations to multiclassing.