When the Ranger and Paladin get their write-ups, I'd like to ask that the damage for Favored Enemy and Smite be changed to extra d6's for damage (kind of like Sneak Attack). It will bring the Paladin some needed oomph and bring both abilities more in line with sneak attack and other abilities.
As an aside, I'd also like to see Spirited Charge tweaked so it grants an extra d6 to damage (+2d6 with a lance) rather than the doubling/tripling it does now. Doubling/Tripling damage is just too easy to abuse.
When the Ranger and Paladin get their write-ups, I'd like to ask that the damage for Favored Enemy and Smite be changed to extra d6's for damage (kind of like Sneak Attack). It will bring the Paladin some needed oomph and bring both abilities more in line with sneak attack and other abilities.
As an aside, I'd also like to see Spirited Charge tweaked so it grants an extra d6 to damage (+2d6 with a lance) rather than the doubling/tripling it does now. Doubling/Tripling damage is just too easy to abuse.
Since rangers have become my class of choice over the last few years, replacing my interest in the bard before it, I'm also keen as to see what changes will be made to the ranger class.
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When the Ranger and Paladin get their write-ups, I'd like to ask that the damage for Favored Enemy and Smite be changed to extra d6's for damage (kind of like Sneak Attack). It will bring the Paladin some needed oomph and bring both abilities more in line with sneak attack and other abilities.
As an aside, I'd also like to see Spirited Charge tweaked so it grants an extra d6 to damage (+2d6 with a lance) rather than the doubling/tripling it does now. Doubling/Tripling damage is just too easy to abuse.
Nice. I kind of like these ideas...since this sucks:
"I attack with my Smite Evil"
"OK, you do an extra whole point of damage"
"Yeah"
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In my playtest group we have 1 player for each of the classes in PF-RPG Alpha which is great. Next weekend, a 5th player will be joining us and would like to play a Paladin. At first I was ok with it as it will be a nice test for the compatibility of the new classes with the old. But now I'm thinking that it's also a chance to try out some new class-tweaks that might be under consideration by Paizo.
So what do you think a PF-RPG Paladin will look like?
Add my vote for a [+xd6] Smite Evil. It might make that Balor's think twice about ignoring the 10th-level paladin, knowing he can pump out an extra 10-60 points on a smite attack.
Some say that would be overpowered, but look at the rogue- they can get nearly that much extra damage every round (if they angle themselves right) and includes two-weapon fighting and iterative attacks. If a paladin is still limited to times/day (which makes sense) let's make it worth it for them.
Paladins lost a lot of flavour in updating to 3rd edition, I'd like to see at least some of that restored.
One aspect of changing it from a flat bonus to bonus dice is that, under the standard mechanics, those bonus dice will not multiply on a critical. Several ranger and paladin spells take advantage of the critical, IIRC (allowing auto-confirms on certain enemies, for example), which would render their special damage less impressive.
Wouldn't giving the paladin class features that are actually useful be a better option? Because, really, the paladin spends 95% of the day as a fighter without the mediocre benefits of feats.
And thats just sad.
When the Ranger and Paladin get their write-ups, I'd like to ask that the damage for Favored Enemy and Smite be changed to extra d6's for damage (kind of like Sneak Attack). It will bring the Paladin some needed oomph and bring both abilities more in line with sneak attack and other abilities.
As an aside, I'd also like to see Spirited Charge tweaked so it grants an extra d6 to damage (+2d6 with a lance) rather than the doubling/tripling it does now. Doubling/Tripling damage is just too easy to abuse.
Nice. I kind of like these ideas...since this sucks:
"I attack with my Smite Evil"
"OK, you do an extra whole point of damage"
"Yeah"
I kind of like the standard smite from the WoW tabletop game (which you need a feat to get in standard D&D), which does 1d6 + 1/level with a smite, plus your strike is considered to be good for purposes of damage reduction while smiting.
My poor paladin player was so happy the first time she used her smite ability, and then realized she only added on when she was first level.
I have to agree with the idea of changing Smite and Favored Enemy from the current 3.5 version to something closer to the Rogue's sneak attack. However, using d6 at the same progression may be a bit high. Perhaps either use d4 for the base or use a 1d6/4 levels instead?
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I have never thought of the favoured enemy bonus to damage as weak, I have more of a problem with the rubbish spells and useless companion (but that is a different subject).
I agree the Paladins smite ability is just plain old rubbish, I have always wished that the smite evil attempts were not once per attack, but instead you could declare a single enemy as the target of your smite and all your attacks against him are smite attacks until the end of that encounter. Still pretty weak at 1st level, but becomes pretty handy at higher levels and makes that Charisma bonus even more important. The same increase in smites per day would then be a good power level.
I have to agree with the idea of changing Smite and Favored Enemy from the current 3.5 version to something closer to the Rogue's sneak attack. However, using d6 at the same progression may be a bit high. Perhaps either use d4 for the base or use a 1d6/4 levels instead?
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Personally, I like the d6 progression for Smite, especially if it keeps the times/day restriction. Big Bad Evil Dudes should be scared to death when a 10th level paladin comes at them with a gleam in his eye. This would do that. The number of times per day, especially with the other changes that mean there should be more encounters per day, keep things from becomming too obscene.
Favored Enemies might make more sense at d4, but that because of the OTHER bonuses that go along with favored enemy.
Regardless, both need overhauls when it comes to damage bonuses to be even remotely close to rogues. As it is, I almost prefer a rogue with Improved Feint to almost ANY fighter type. Of course, this prings into question whether Fighter shouldn't have some similar talent, but there there are a host of compatability issues.
In further regards to Paladins...I would not mind seeing them get the same tweak Rangers did in the change from second to third edition...namely, the change in alignment requirements. I see no reason why only Lawful Good should have a crusader base class. I would very much like to see a Paladin with several options based upon their alignment or if such things emerge options based upon the specific order they belong to if any.
John,
After taking a bit more to think over your post i have to agree.
Smite would be solid using a d6 progression (though that would depend on how often it goes up as level increases). I had spaced that the uses per day are limited.
Favored enemy would be solid at d4 progression (again depending on how often it increases). This is also assuming it remains usable anytime upon the favored enemy (i see no reasonable way to make such an ability usable only a set number of times per day).
They would both be more restricted than a rogue's sneak attack ability which has unlimited uses per day (if the rogue can set the target up for it) and works on any target (assuming the target is vulnerable to sneak attack).
Changing Smite to a d6 would also have the intresting result of a paladin who takes improved sunder and uses his +3d6 Smite Evil to target the Blackguard's evil-aligned +3 Unholy Vampiric Long Sword instead of the the Blackguard himself. (or the reverse).
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Speaking of Rangers, I noticed that Track has been subsumed into something else or othewrwise done away with. I have to wonder what will be added to compensate for the loss of a signature class ability.
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When the Ranger and Paladin get their write-ups, I'd like to ask that the damage for Favored Enemy and Smite be changed to extra d6's for damage (kind of like Sneak Attack). It will bring the Paladin some needed oomph and bring both abilities more in line with sneak attack and other abilities.
As an aside, I'd also like to see Spirited Charge tweaked so it grants an extra d6 to damage (+2d6 with a lance) rather than the doubling/tripling it does now. Doubling/Tripling damage is just too easy to abuse.
Nice. I kind of like these ideas...since this sucks:
"I attack with my Smite Evil"
"OK, you do an extra whole point of damage"
"Yeah"
It's more like this:
"I attack with my smite evil!"
"What's your CHA modifier again?"
"+4. I hit!"
There's more to smiting than bonus damage. At lower levels, smiting is more about actually connecting with what you swing at.
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Wouldn't giving the paladin class features that are actually useful be a better option? Because, really, the paladin spends 95% of the day as a fighter without the mediocre benefits of feats.
And thats just sad.
I beg to differ. Paladins just have to bide their time a bit, but when the time comes, a well-played paladin can hit INCREDIBLY hard. When you throw power attack, divine might, and divine sacrifice together with your smite you're looking at around weapon damage + STR + 30 points of damage out of ONE SWING (on average). That's not bad for a level 6 character.
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I beg to differ. Paladins just have to bide their time a bit, but when the time comes, a well-played paladin can hit INCREDIBLY hard. When you throw power attack, divine might, and divine sacrifice together with your smite you're looking at around weapon damage + STR + 30 points of damage out of ONE SWING (on average). That's not bad for a level 6 character.
True, and that's cool about paladins.
But as stated above, the other 95% of the time they're feat-impaired fighters.
Granted, they pick up some nice saves though.
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I beg to differ. Paladins just have to bide their time a bit, but when the time comes, a well-played paladin can hit INCREDIBLY hard. When you throw power attack, divine might, and divine sacrifice together with your smite you're looking at around weapon damage + STR + 30 points of damage out of ONE SWING (on average). That's not bad for a level 6 character.Wouldn't giving the paladin class features that are actually useful be a better option? Because, really, the paladin spends 95% of the day as a fighter without the mediocre benefits of feats.
And thats just sad.
the issue with your example is that Divine Sacrifice and Divine Might are not SRD. Mighty as they are they are not viable for use.
Then again I am nit-picking.
I also favor the article from Dragon about paladin's bonded weapon instead of mount, and as they gained power their weapons became more powerful.
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I beg to differ. Paladins just have to bide their time a bit, but when the time comes, a well-played paladin can hit INCREDIBLY hard. When you throw power attack, divine might, and divine sacrifice together with your smite you're looking at around weapon damage + STR + 30 points of damage out of ONE SWING (on average). That's not bad for a level 6 character.Wouldn't giving the paladin class features that are actually useful be a better option? Because, really, the paladin spends 95% of the day as a fighter without the mediocre benefits of feats.
And thats just sad.
the issue with your example is that Divine Sacrifice and Divine Might are not SRD. Mighty as they are they are not viable for use.
Then again I am nit-picking.
I also favor the article from Dragon about paladin's bonded weapon instead of mount, and as they gained power their weapons became more powerful.
Hey, that's a really good idea. That could be a primary difference between a melee and mounted combat path, if that's a class mechanic that gets picked up.
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Personally, I like the d6 progression for Smite, especially if it keeps the times/day restriction. Big Bad Evil Dudes should be scared to death when a 10th level paladin comes at them with a gleam in his eye. This would do that. The number of times per day, especially with the other changes that mean there should be more encounters per day, keep things from becomming too obscene.
I like this idea, hopefully the number of times per day it could be used would balance out the increased damage.
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the issue with your example is that Divine Sacrifice and Divine Might are not SRD. Mighty as they are they are not viable for use.Then again I am nit-picking.
I also favor the article from Dragon about paladin's bonded weapon instead of mount, and as they gained power their weapons became more powerful.
Actually, Divine Might is in the SRD. It's found under Divine Abilities and Feats.
And I like the damage bonus. Combining a smite with Divine Might and Devastating could be fun.
I admit that the damage bonus on low level is rather weak, but in my opinion bonus dice aren't the way to go. How about giving the paladin a multiplier instead? So, at first level a paladin would be dealing double damage while using a smite. That multiplier might increase as the Paladin gains levels. I would also recommend replacing the daily limit of smites with making it usable once every 5 rounds like a Binder bound to Andras from Tome of Magic. If that would be to powerful on low levels, the paladin could get a 1/day smite on level 1 and the 1/5 round smite on level 5. It could also be limitted to being a standard action instead of a normal attack.
I think the giving Paladins and Rangers a version of Sneak Attack (at its full damage of d6) stacking every few levels would be rather nice. Although it might only work against certain monsters. Undead and Evil Outsiders for the standard Paladins. With Rangers being restricted to certain types that they trained or encountered before like giants, humanoids, animals, vermin, magical beasts and aberrations.
I think the giving Paladins and Rangers a version of Sneak Attack (at its full damage of d6) stacking every few levels would be rather nice. Although it might only work against certain monsters. Undead and Evil Outsiders for the standard Paladins. With Rangers being restricted to certain types that they trained or encountered before like giants, humanoids, animals, vermin, magical beasts and aberrations.
I'm going to have problems with any version of a paladin's smite that does less than it does now, i.e. it should work against anything with an evil alignment, otherwise its kind of missing the point of why a paladin exists. They aren't just undead or fiendslayers, but champions of good.
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I think the giving Paladins and Rangers a version of Sneak Attack (at its full damage of d6) stacking every few levels would be rather nice. Although it might only work against certain monsters. Undead and Evil Outsiders for the standard Paladins. With Rangers being restricted to certain types that they trained or encountered before like giants, humanoids, animals, vermin, magical beasts and aberrations.
I would like to avoid making their special abilities to much like sneak attacks. One of my concerns with 4th Edition is that it seems all classes use the same mechanics. I would like to avoid such a thing. It may work as an alternate class feature, though.
When the Ranger and Paladin get their write-ups, I'd like to ask that the damage for Favored Enemy and Smite be changed to extra d6's for damage (kind of like Sneak Attack). It will bring the Paladin some needed oomph and bring both abilities more in line with sneak attack and other abilities.
As an aside, I'd also like to see Spirited Charge tweaked so it grants an extra d6 to damage (+2d6 with a lance) rather than the doubling/tripling it does now. Doubling/Tripling damage is just too easy to abuse.
I really like this idea, too.
How about something like:
Smite Evil (Su): As part of a melee attack, you may channel holy power to deal more damage to an evil creature (if used against a nonevil creature, the smite is wasted and has no additional effect). You may add your Charisma modifier (minimum +1) to your attack roll. If you hit, you deal +1d6 holy damage per two paladin levels (maximum +10d6 at 20th level). Your attack counts as good-aligned for damage reduction purposes. You may smite evil once per day at 1st level, and an additional time per day at every 4th level (up to six times per day at 20th level). You may only smite evil once per round.
Favored Enemy (Ex): Select one creature type. Against creatures of that type, you gain a +2 bonus to Listen, Search, Spot, Survival and Knowledge (as appropriate to the creature type) checks, and you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage with a successful melee attack, and ranged attacks within point blank.
At levels 5, 10, 15 and 20, you gain an additional favored enemy. In addition, you may choose to increase the bonus against one of your favored enemies (including the one you just selected) by +2 (to skills) and +1d6 (to damage).
I'm not sure I want it to stray even that much from what it is now (regarding smite evil). I kind of like the Complete Warrior feat/WoW d20 ability that does 1d6+(paladin level) in damage instead of +1/level, and treats the smite as a good aligned attack.
I am a fan of potentially giving the smite more "side effects" as the paladin gets higher level (i.e. a smite might force a save or blind an opponent at Level X).
I liked the suggestion that someone had in one thread about paladins gaining a set number of smites plus cha per day, and not advancing them per level, but at the same time, this compounds the problem of the class being front loaded, so I'd probably understand keeping smites as advancing according to level.
Perhaps the levels at which a new smite is gained would be a good time to gain an additional effect for when the smite is used.
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okay, I think one of the goals is to make this simpler to understand. add side effects strikes me as making things unreasonably messy. I personally like the idea of +1d6 per two levels, and being a DM I see it as something that is easily understood and a simple fix to a broken ability.
I would like to hear of some people who have play tested this and get their thoughts.
okay, I think one of the goals is to make this simpler to understand. add side effects strikes me as making things unreasonably messy. I personally like the idea of +1d6 per two levels, and being a DM I see it as something that is easily understood and a simple fix to a broken ability.
I would like to hear of some people who have play tested this and get their thoughts.
I think adding additional dice instead of a flat number helps prevent massive damage through a critical or class ability. For kicks, I once statted out a Paladin 10/Cavalier 10 who did over 200 points of damage on a charging smite (even more on a crit).
I really like the idea of added Dice for both The Smite and The favored enemy. Smite more then Favored Enemy but streamlining is good I think
excellent idea OP, I completely agree. D6 per favored "plus", and smite could be d6 per...hmmm...4 levels to keep the power creep identical to ranger.