Short answer: Nothing.
Longer answer:
1. Scrap any of the stupid changes they are making to the Forgotten Realms (and that would, IMO, be all of them).
2. Roll the parties responsible for the above changes into the town square and have them stoned (biblical old-school style)
3. Somehow convince me that they have spent more than all of about 6 months on this - there is no way it could be in such disarray as this if they've really been working on it for two years
4. Stop stealing names of things and applying them to totally (or significantly different) things - see #1 above, as well as several other examples
5. No subscription-based content. This is a blatant money-grab which clearly indicates they have no real desire to provide a complete system without a monthly cost attached.
6. Don't make people take steps backwards when comparing core books to core books. I can understand if someone can't play a Deepwood Sniper out of the gate, but a druid? That should be pretty simple.... (see #3 above)I have several other conditions, but they may not be appropriate for this forum as they involve specific people.
Anyway, I think that the Longer Answer really just leads back to my short answer. They've already forked it up so badly, as far as my interest is concerned, that I will never allow any money to flow into WotC again.
1) Absolutely agreed.
2) If only it were legal.
3) The problem wasn't 4.0. It was that they broke 3.5 to MAKE 4.0. AND, they said there will be 5th edition in just 5 years. There is no reason not to skip this edition of the game completely, financially, ethically, and worldwise. My D+D game is 20 years old this year. There is no way I'm doing an edition upgrade until at LEAST January 1st, 2009, and then it's going to be a big vote among my players.
4) I completely agree. It's not a macetail behemoth. It's a @#$^%&ing Anklyosaurus. A good roleplayer will say "My god, its a macetail behemoth!" But now we have no way to separate the good from the bad.
5) The perpetually incomplete system bothers me too.
6) I absolutely agree. Now let me add #7.
7) Warlord should be nuked. There should not be a "Leader" class. A leader arises from roleplaying and their decision making skills. Taking the tactics out of the game is wrong.
1. Return Greyhawk features back to Greyhawk.
2. Include all of the races and classes in the PH which are found in the current PH.
3. Don't wait with releasing popular monsters that have been around in the MM since the advanced D&D days (Frost Giant).
4. Significantly slow down the XP system.
5. Put spells like Wish and others that have been around since the advanced D&D days back in.
6. Return to us paper Dragon and Dungeon magazines.9. Rewrite their fluff so it is consistent with the previous 30+ years.
10. Continued strong Greyhawk support.
I've heard the arguments from people who don't want WOTC to pick up the GH mantle again and run w/ it, based largely on what they've done to other settings (see current FR fiasco). So I'd remove 10) from the list above, and stick w/ those who'd like to see Paizo take over GH. Yes, yes, they don't have the human resources to develop both it and Golarion. I know that. But in my perfect little world, Paizo would expand by, say, hiring some of the people who've done such great work on GH over the years, and let them develop GH while the current staff works on Golarion. The new revenue stream from those interested and grateful for official GH support would pay for the expanded staff. And everyone's happy! Yes, as John Lennon sang, "You might say I'm a dreamer...but I'm not the only one..." :)
If Paizo supports 4e with the outstanding campaigns and campaign support that they have for 3e and 3.5, I might swith to 4e quickly. I say might, because I have to see the new game and see how much I like it.
I will most definately buy the core books and try out the game. I am currently in a campaign (Shattered Gates of Slaughtergaurde) and our group has no intention of "upgrading" our campaign, but the next one might be 4e.
I've run events in most of the World Wide D&D Game Days, and I'm looking forward to running 4e games this November.
Now, having said that, I really like 3.5 a lot. I love the campaign materials that Paizo in particular have created. The amount of 3.5 Paizo stuff I have is enough to keep me gainfully playing for 5 more years or more.
5th edition in 5 years? I missed that one. Can anyone name a source please?
Oh, and to the original point:
1) Outstanding mechanics.
2) Superb artwork.
3) The heads of the PR people on pikes outside my window, the bodies as compost at the greenhouse. At the least, their jobs.
4) All the current PH classes and races in the PH1.
5) Contractual assurances that there will be no more decisions made that might make the game like a video game.
Enough to start with, at least.
I've heard the arguments from people who don't want WOTC to pick up the GH mantle again and run w/ it, based largely on what they've done to other settings (see current FR fiasco). So I'd remove 10) from the list above, and stick w/ those who'd like to see Paizo take over GH. Yes, yes, they don't have the human resources to develop both it and Golarion. I know that. But in my perfect little world, Paizo would expand by, say, hiring some of the people who've done such great work on GH over the years, and let them develop GH while the current staff works on Golarion. The new revenue stream from those interested and grateful for official GH support would pay for the expanded staff. And everyone's happy! Yes, as John Lennon sang, "You might say I'm a dreamer...but I'm not the only one..." :)
I understand your point Ben. I can't say I am familiar with Paizo products but from what I understand their world is rather popular here. What I can comment on is the efforts Paizo put into Dragon and Dungeon during their reign of the magazines. There efforts so far as I'm concerned exceeded anything previously done with Greyhawk.
The original work by Gary Gygax always gave me butterflies when I would see Greyhawk material in Dragon Magazine, a module etc. Guess I will always have a soft spot there because it was my fondest moments of growing up). But I will say that from a technical point of view, Paizo has been better primarly because gaming has matured over the years.
I would love it if Paizo could take over Greyhawk. I understand that is not going to happen, but I do sleep better with pleasant thoughts.
As far as WOTC doing anything with it....allow me to clarify my position....in their current state I would not want WOTC to do anything with Greyhawk what-so-ever. I don't trust their goals, staff, effort, or word. PERIOD! Basically, in a nut shell, by posting a list of conditions in which I would accept 4th edition is if they got their **** together. Each point made as far as I concerned brings WOTC towards that direction. Until they get their act together, as far as I'm concerned, they are not qualified nor have they earned the privelage of working on Greyhawk. So, NO, I don't actually want them to touch it, just like I won't be joining in on the 4th edition audience.
In short, my list was my way of saying just that...."WOTC get your act together!" (At least by the standards I measure a D&D game and the company that produces/owns it.")
Actually, if I had my way....I would own it!
So do you want a job?
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For me, the ONLY thing that would get me to try 4th edition is if Paizo got the rights to Greyhawk and came up with a Player's Guide that included its take on gnomes, druids, bards, and all other classic races and classes left out of WotC's PHB.
It would be 4th edition with a classic D&D feel to it.
So far WOTC marketing behaviour seems so disgusting that I would not even touch the rules system with a hot poker. I want nothing to do with it.
I might still buy some 4e adventures, just so I can savage the plot ideas and dump the whole rest, or buy the return of an old favourite world, but I would buy just these precise books, and only if after i see good reviews of them. Just so I don't pay to go through the Forgettable Ruins fiasco.
What could make me change my mind ? hmmm ? ..... ??? ..... ??? ..... ??? Al-Qa... no : they would flame it much the way of FR. Hmmmm .... ...... . Well I love Living Arcanis. So if Paradigm goes 4e, I might be forced to try the 4e system someday.
But even this might not be enough
Easily compatable with 3.x. I think it is the lack of this that is really hurting them. My group wasn't really upset about going to 3.5 from 3rd, because many of the changes in 3.5 felt "right" to my group. Add in the fact that many 3rd ed. foes and creatures could be updated on the fly (large, oh its space is 10'x 10') or just left as is (fort save is +7, sounds good), and it wasn't a problem.
A hottie and a bag of blow.
Yah, I'm cheap.
I don't think I can be swayed to D&D4. I'm going to skip it like I did AD&D2.
I don't know why, but the even numbered D&D editions just don't interest me.
If they decided not to scrap the entire cosmology. That announcement really put a sour taste in my mouth. I was originally excited about the online aspect of it (since a lot of my gaming buddies are in hard-to-reach places like Iraq) but since the initial announcement I have gone from cautious optimism to sad disbelief. I am not making any rash promises that I wont try 4E, but I am sure that now I will wait until someone else buys the core books and plays it with me so I can at least try it for free.
A couple of things:
- Apologies from all the wizards personnel who lied to the fans and made fun of them. Alternately, firing the whole bunch would work, too
- Scrapping the whole FR b&!~$*%$ they've been doing (say, ignoring anything beyond 1375 DR or something), restoring the Realms to something recognisable, and easing off of the Realms Shattering Events.
- In the same vein as the point above: Restoring D&D's history.
- Making the game as universal as 3e was. Making it easy to use as many different fantasy worlds as possible.
- Restoring all the 3e base races, doing away with nonsense like dragonborn or tieflings as core races. (Okay, tieflings can stay, but with the old background history, and bring in aasimar as well. In fact, make it one big planetouched race you can customise to whatever supernatural ancestry you want: good, evil, lawful, chaotic, fire, water, whatever). It goes double for the eladrin nonsense. Call them by name: ELVES. If they have to, they can create two distinct elven races (high elves and wood elves), with drow being their own race as well (if they want to keep kidding themselves that 4e doesn't have "subraces" any more). And don't overdo the hardwiring (well, this ties into the previous issue) so that if someone doesn't want to use dwarves as (whatever they're depicted as in the core rules), there won't be too much trouble to do that.
- Giving us all the basic classes, and giving them to us right away, not with PHB23 or anything.
- Ease off the DDI. It's all nice and well and "no one needs it", but when stuff that I consider essential ends up there, I start to consider that statement false
- A 3e style SRD, and the possibility to do other games with the 4e d20 rules, just as it was possible with 3e
- Stop that crap about paying to be allowed to see and use the rules earlier.
- Paizo to support 4e
I guess I forgot a couple of things.
I might add that right now, the last one isn't enough. For a while I thought that I'd pick up the core rules if Paizo decides to go with 4e, but right now, I won't even then. If that means that Paizo Stuff becomes useless to me in a year, so be it. I won't be happy about cancelling the subscriptions, but I'll do it. I have enough material to see me through another couple of years full of adventures, and there's always the option of making my own. And there's other RPGs as well.
The only way I can see myself keeping my subscriptions after Pathfinder goes 4e is if we got good conversion documents for the APs, and get them fast (I.e. as soon as the book is released).
The system coming out. Oh wait, someone said that. ;)
Now, whether I buy any further upgrades or yearly edition releases is a different issue.
I'll also be curious to see how many Over My Dead Body Gamers choose to convert anyway.
I'll take a look at 4e (and play if the opportunity arises). Whether or not I'll switch (and probably when if I do) depends on other factors: the quality of the system, how easy it is to tweak to cover various character/setting concepts, the group(s) I'm playing with, the amount of decent source material, etc.
I'm not a 4e hater, I'm a 4e skeptic.
How about Nicholas Logue in a tight skirt and a bag of cheetos?A hottie and a bag of blow.
Yah, I'm cheap.
Hey! I was eating! I've met Nicholas Logue. Want proof that Law and Chaos as alignments still belong in the game? You, sir, are living proof of this. Because if you're not Chaotic Evil, no one is.
Kick ass mechanics supported by easy to modify fluff (I'll keep my great wheel thanks).
Easy directions or examples to make new classes and/or races from so that I can make Bards and Druids.
Paizo thinking the system is good enough for their things.
Frankly, though it'll be at least a year before I seriously look. Currently I still have to run Rise of the Runelords and SCAP, not to mention whatever else comes out of Pathfinder until Paizo switches (if they do).
Half a bottle of 15 years old Bruichladdich whisky. Or the same amount of Bunnahabhain, 18 yo, in a pinch.You brought a tear to my eye. Isle of Islay Whiskey ftw. Laphroig is good too, but its a love it or hate it Islay malt. Anything 15+ years. 12 year old is crap.
I'm a Lagavulin man, myself.
I'm a Lagavulin man, myself.Half a bottle of 15 years old Bruichladdich whisky. Or the same amount of Bunnahabhain, 18 yo, in a pinch.You brought a tear to my eye. Isle of Islay Whiskey ftw. Laphroig is good too, but its a love it or hate it Islay malt. Anything 15+ years. 12 year old is crap.
Isn't this a whole separate thread? :D
Bowmore, Highland Park and Macallan all work for me. Not to mention the "off-label off-island brands".
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I'll also be curious to see how many Over My Dead Body Gamers choose to convert anyway.I'll be surprised if less than 75% of the "I'm never playing 4th edition" were still holding out by June 2009.
Heh, by June 2009 it might actually be worth looking at. ;)
In any case, I really don't appreciate when people say things like this.
I don't go around saying "I expect at least 52% of the 4e sycophants will be crying in their cheerios because they are so ashamed of their decision to play 4e" now, do I? Or "people who are switching to 4e are the kind of people who would eat a spoonful of crap if WotC put a Dungeons and Dragons label on it and told them that their cheerios paled in comparison to their cool new stuff".
That would be wrong of me to do.
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Well lets start with this:
1) Giving races back negatives to stats where applicable.
2) Getting rid of the stupid, "as i gain more experience I get better at doing things my race can do." NO NO NO NO NO...you dont "learn" to be better at your race. You "learn to be better at your profession or class.
3) Give us 3 core books....NOT 3 core books for every campaign setting.
Thats a start...I might consider looking at the books if those things are changed.
That or 100k.....
If that means that Paizo Stuff becomes useless to me in a year, so be it. I won't be happy about cancelling the subscriptions, but I'll do it.
Myself, I have decided that if Paizo goes 4E, I'll be changing my subscription to Planet Stories. This way they won't be "useless" and I still dodge 4E.
Kick ass mechanics supported by easy to modify fluff (I'll keep my great wheel thanks).
Good luck with that
A 4th Edition D&D adventure for characters of levels 1–3
Players can now expect to go plane hopping at 1st level.
I've met Nicholas Logue.
Question: Does he have a handle bar mustache?
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The Worlds and Monsters book talks about using The Far Realms and Faerie (Feywilds) more. If they put out cool supplements for one or the other, and the basic mechanics of the game are good, it's conceivable that I could run a game. But it wouldn't really be a D&D game. It'd be more like fantasy Call of Cthulhu or The Books of Magic RPG at that point.
And even if I did, it would be core only; because there's no way I'm buying dozens of splatbooks again.
How about Nicholas Logue in a tight skirt and a bag of cheetos?A hottie and a bag of blow.
Yah, I'm cheap.
Sure, that's a go.
Honestly for me the better question is, "What would keep you from moving over to 4E at some point in the future?" as I see it as likely that I will be making the switch at some point in the future.
1. Paizo decides NOT to switch over and produce anything under the GSL. (This would give me pretty big pause because it would mean they would continue to pump out great material for 3.5 but if I found great stuff for 4E I would probably shift over sadly)
2. My group decides that it is not what they want to do. I think what would happen in this case is that I would finish running the available APs (plenty to go since I am on SCAP) and then I would let them know that I am not interested in running more 3.5, but would be happy to play in a 3.5 or run 4E or a Call of Cthulhu campaign.
3. The design concepts that Wizards has given have little to no direct impact and the game they produce is much worse than I think it will be so I decide that 3.5 is just a superior system. I would be shocked if this is the case, but I am willing to keep an open mind as I evaluate the system when it comes out.
And that is about it... If I was a betting man, I would bet that I will switch over somewhere between 6-12 months after release and will have been buying most/all the products to that point. Could be wrong though... hope not though, since I am anticipating really liking the new system.
Sean Mahoney
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I returned to the game after a long absence and haven't accumulated so much 3.5 stuff that I couldn't afford to switch. My son is really into the game and 4.0 will be the version his friends play when they learn to read (or 4.5 or 5.0 :-( ). These are good reasons to switch.
From what they've shown me so far though, I won't be switching anytime soon. (1) Demons on the cover are a no-no for me as they will frighten my wife. Yeah, I know! It's lame but there are still some people in this world who haven't become totally desensitized to representations of evil. (2) My son and I campaign in Greyhawk so I can't see any motivation to switch there. Golarion is shaping up to be a very exciting world, so Paizo switching would be a factor. (3) Racial levels annoys me to no end for reasons I won't go into here. (4) I have no great love of gnomes or bards ... partly because I don't really understand how to run them as NPCs. (Any novels that have a gnome bard hero that would be worth emulating?) Half-orcs however are a loss. Our home campaign currently involves helping Paladin half-orc 'Thrand Mak', half-brother of 'Turrosh Mak', attempt to kill his half-brother and free the Pomarj.
For me to switch it wouldn't take much: a second printing with a more iconic cover and Greyhawk done with great love or Paizo switching over. Even still, I'm thinking 2009 for the PHB and 2010 for the core books.
What could sway you to try 4th edition?
Mental incapacitation, maybe :P
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I believe I'd have to get the rules for free, like you could for 3.0/3.5. Even then, it would be only to play something different than D&D for while. It'd be similar to my group playing Call of Cthulu for 5 or 6 weeks before going back to D&D. I might actually do this anyway, but I'd get the books as cheap as possible, preferably used.
Nothing humanly imaginable. At this point, they'd have to change it into something that isn't 4e.
I would try it if someone wants to run it, a free demo or something. Because, hey, why not? Worst which that would come out would be some wasted hours and potentially amusing story about a session of suck.
Other than that, I will be looking if there will be good fluff there at some point, something to convert to the system of choice, spark imagination or just be entertaining to read. Only way to get me interested in crunch and actually invest my money and time to it is to get lots of positive, informative peer reviews which suggest that this would be my thing.
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Honestly, I can't imagine that WotC can do anymore than it has done already to sway me. The company really hasn't released anything that makes me excited. Its most recent release - the "new and improved" death and dying" has only added another coffin nail to my already dying interest.
As much as I hate to say it, even if Paizo converts, I may not. Much now depends on the interest level of my game group.
What bugs me the most about 4e is that I am already considering house rules. Darkvision? In. Death and Dying? Out. Condition Track. In.
Honestly, I was hoping that 4e would really grab onto a lot of what was improved with Star Wars Saga Edition. Nope.
Ladies and gentlemen, this isn't a revised edition. It isn't an extension of 3e/3.5. It isn't meant to improved either of those editions. Rather, 4e is clearly WotC's attempt to reinvent the game.
And that's a bummer for those of us who aren't ready to throw out our 3e/3.5. But that is life in WotC's corporate community.
From what I have seen so far, my reply would be "nothing".
The fundamental assumptions about the gaming styles of D&D Players and the character dynamic they try to attend are so far away from what I like, that it seems hopeless.
For me the deal breaker is actually Mike Mearls and his relentless enthusiasm for "Exception Based Design."
Sure, there's a lot of things that hack me off. I actively don't like WoW, and I really find it annoying when people bring WoW thinking into D&D. I understand why they are bringing in "auras" and Blood Elves, and I don't like it. But I'd be willing to accept it. I understand where they are coming from with their "roles" of Tank/Crowd Control/Support/ and DPS. It's not a really applicable distinction in a role playing game where manticore make informed decisions and don't have "hate" mechanics. But I understand why they are doing it.
But the fact that each and every monster with a petrification gaze has a unique petrification gaze written up on their monster entry which isn't related to other gaze attacks, other petrification attacks, or even other petrification gaze attacks is something I won't accept. There's no learning curve to the new edition as they've described it. No matter how long I play I will never get good at it because every single monster has its own subsystems for every single thing that it does. And so I feel no reason to learn any part of it.
So that's what it would take to get me to try to learn 4th edition. I'm willing to put up with all the WoW crap, and I'm even willing to overlook the whole "Succeed and Win" replacement for the "Save or Die." But really unless and until someone ties Mike Mearls up in a carpet and removes him bodily from 4th edition game design I don't think I can be persuaded to play.
-Frank
a $600 dollar credit for all of the 3.0 and 3.5 books that will have to be left on the shelf if I move on. And before any of the "you can always still play" people start ranting, how many people really ever use their 1st and 2nd ed. stuff for anything other than conversation starters? Why would 3.X be any different in 5 years?
I'll also be curious to see how many Over My Dead Body Gamers choose to convert anyway.I'll be surprised if less than 75% of the "I'm never playing 4th edition" were still holding out by June 2009.Heh, by June 2009 it might actually be worth looking at. ;)
In any case, I really don't appreciate when people say things like this.
I don't go around saying "I expect at least 52% of the 4e sycophants will be crying in their cheerios because they are so ashamed of their decision to play 4e" now, do I? Or "people who are switching to 4e are the kind of people who would eat a spoonful of crap if WotC put a Dungeons and Dragons label on it and told them that their cheerios paled in comparison to their cool new stuff".
That would be wrong of me to do.
Yay! well said. Hating the haters without the hate. lol. I have a couple of folks in my group that can't wait to play 4E, until I told them I will not buy the books. Then they realized how much I had sunk into the very same 3.X books that they regularly abuse in horrifying ways. Suddenly the tenuous nature of their $12- hour jobs and the looming recession kinda hit home.
Yay! well said. Hating the haters without the hate. lol. I have a couple of folks in my group that can't wait to play 4E, until I told them I will not buy the books. Then they realized how much I had sunk into the very same 3.X books that they regularly abuse in horrifying ways. Suddenly the tenuous nature of their $12- hour jobs and the looming recession kinda hit home.
I don't go around saying "I expect at least 52% of the 4e sycophants will be crying in their cheerios because they are so ashamed of their decision to play 4e" now, do I? Or "people who are switching to 4e are the kind of people who would eat a spoonful of crap if WotC put a Dungeons and Dragons label on it and told them that their cheerios paled in comparison to their cool new stuff".That would be wrong of me to do.
Which thread were you replying to? ;)
Anyway, I don't hate anybody. If you're extrapolating hatred from a wry observation based upon the 3.5 screaming (and post-release adoption), then I guess I didn't provide enough context.
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Sword and sorcery rules. That would get me to buy it.
That's easy. Give me 10 minutes after the main rules are out, and I can give you the Sword and Sorcery rules for it.
I love S&S, and playing a more S&S game is one of the things I'm considering for my first 4e campaign, house rules and all.
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And before any of the "you can always still play" people start ranting, how many people really ever use their 1st and 2nd ed. stuff for anything other than conversation starters? Why would 3.X be any different in 5 years?
I use lots of old 2e sources. Heck, I use sources for other game systems, regularly.
Money and time.
Money - Except for my Paizo purchases, my gaming fund has for the most part dried up for the next year or so. If/when Paizo goes to 4.x, I might buy the new rulebooks. However, I will probably wait until next year at the earliest to buy the rule books.
Time - Right now I am not playing D & D, due to working the 4pm to midnight shift and having other things going on. If WotC can add a few more hours to the day, maybe I will buy the rulebooks sooner.
Cash!
Only two things would make me play 4th Edition:
1) Convert all my 3.0/3.5 material to 4th Edition. All of it. Archons, demons, devils, elves, magic, incarnum, law&chaos, the original cosmology, alignment system, all of it.
2) Put Forgotten Realms back the way it was before they ripped it apart.
Then, I'll jump on 4th Edition easily.
im gonna check it out, probably buy the core books, or maybe just the PHB.
I'm interested in seeing it. I have kinda stopped reading up on the info. There are things I dont care for, but mostly fluff. If the rules are sound, and I feel I can easily use stuff I have I will definitely give it a shot.