Hey, I was listening to this video and she let it slip about 4th Edition.
LISTEN CLOSELY
Video Answer on converting 3.5E material to 4E
Did you catch what she said?
She said 4.0
That's right. I don't want to hear "Oh, that's not what she meant." She slipped. What other reason is there to call 4th Edition 4.0 when it obviously implies that there will be a 4.5E?
Scott Rouse is such a liar, as he has been since the few weeks before 4th Edition was announced and continues to be, about there never being a 4.5E. Her statement alone already slipped what they have planned. 4th Edition is so much change, that you're definitely going to have players find problems with the game they couldn't find and then here comes 4.5E! Same thing happened with 3.0 and 3.5E.
Oh man, WotC cracks me up so much.
Like I said, I'm not buying 4th ed for at least a year and a half.
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Hey, I was listening to this video and she let it slip about 4th Edition.
LISTEN CLOSELY
Video Answer on converting 3.5E material to 4E
Did you catch what she said?
She said 4.0
I think you're reading too much into what she's saying. That's the way people talk now. Plus, as far as speaking goes, it's an easier transition to go from saying "three-point-oh" or "three-point-five" to saying "four-point-oh" than it is to go to "fourth edition". I'm not saying there will or won't be a 4.5 or 5.0, but you can't just take a little nuance like that and use it as proof that there *will* be.
I don't care, I'm still not buying it... I didn't shell out $35 bucks a month for the past four years on new material just so they could tell me, "We didn't get it right the first time; here, throw out all that new gear and buy THIS gear instead! We're pretty sure we've got it right this time... well, almost nearly positive. Till we change our minds again." A new upgrade every four years just isn't necessary.
Razz, even I'm not that much of a conspiracy theorist to believe that they already have a 4.5 in the works (or even on the drawing boards) at this time. It is certainly possible that there will be a 4.5, but I can't believe that they're already planning it.
Razz, even I'm not that much of a conspiracy theorist to believe that they already have a 4.5 in the works (or even on the drawing boards) at this time. It is certainly possible that there will be a 4.5, but I can't believe that they're already planning it.
Especially because they seem none too sure what the 4.0 rules will actually be, yet.
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I think it's safe to say that we can expect either a 4.5 or a 5th edition in five years. To some people, five years seems like forever and aren't afraid to invest in the next edition. To others, particularly the older or more seasoned gamers, five years seems like a short time to invest additional money (and/or time), i.e., just over the horizon. (Of course, my son just turned five earlier this month and it seems like yesterday that he was a new born, so I fall in the latter crowd.)
I guess the real clincher for some is going to be how radically improved 4e is from 3.5. I'm not blown away, and in fact am turned off on many different levels. But I have a confession to make. I also resisted Star Wars Saga Edition, having playing (and invested in) Revised Core Rules. But when I finally got my hands on SECR, I liked what I saw. Am I going to re-invest? Nope. Core Rulebook is fine. There's a good chance that if I go 4e, it'll be the same ... especially as I'm more attentive to Paizo's direction than WotCs ... and assuming Paizo switches, it'll be OGL. That's fine with me.
I think it's safe to say that we can expect either a 4.5 or a 5th edition in five years.
<---- Agrees. They treat the game like an operating system.
I think it's safe to say that we can expect either a 4.5 or a 5th edition in five years.<---- Agrees. They treat the game like an operating system.
Dungeon and Dragons is dead.
The company that is supposed to own it, has destroyed it. I will never buy another product from you-know-who.
I think you're reading too much into what she's saying. That's the way people talk now. Plus, as far as speaking goes, it's an easier transition to go from saying "three-point-oh" or "three-point-five" to saying "four-point-oh" than it is to go to "fourth edition". I'm not saying there will or won't be a 4.5 or 5.0, but you can't just take a little nuance like that and use it as proof that there *will* be.Hey, I was listening to this video and she let it slip about 4th Edition.
LISTEN CLOSELY
Video Answer on converting 3.5E material to 4E
Did you catch what she said?
She said 4.0
So what you say instead is: "4E"
Not: "4.0"
She slipped something, I believe, that wasn't really supposed to be known to us now because there's no reason to call something 4.0 unless you plan on a 4.5 and then 5e. It's as simple as that.
If the Brand Manager, Scott Rouse, says there "won't be a 4.5E" and then his Assistant Brand Manager turns around and calls it "4.0", then you know something is up. There's nothing to "read between the lines" because she made those lines very distinct just now.
Why they showed that video knowing she slipped that information out her mouth is surprising, and it's probably too late to take back what she said.
Razz, even I'm not that much of a conspiracy theorist to believe that they already have a 4.5 in the works (or even on the drawing boards) at this time. It is certainly possible that there will be a 4.5, but I can't believe that they're already planning it.Especially because they seem none too sure what the 4.0 rules will actually be, yet.
Did all of us already forget that these same people were working on 3.5E just as soon as they released 3.0E? (as stated by Monte Cook a dozen times already)
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I'll say the same thing I always say when someone talks about a new edition...
"So frakking what?"
Here, more than any other place on the internet, I see lots of negativity towards 4thEd. If you don't like it, that's fine. Just put on your big boy pants and deal with it.
Also, treating the game as an ever evolving, ever changing medium (akin to the Operating System analogy earlier) is a good thing in my mind.
-TRRW
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@atreides - oftentimes operating systems are backward compatible, this 4th hodgepodge is not. Oftentimes, software companies build upgrades with the ideal that it adds features to an existing application to benefit the end user, 4th seems to be its own thing - far removed from the dungeons and dragons features that many have enjoyed for 30+ years. In fairness, at least the upgrades to MS Word have left me feeling like I was using an enhanced version MS Word, i.e. new features added but upgrades honor the look & feel and what the user already knows. Disimilarly, 4dventure seems to be like asking owners of Microsoft Office to also concurrently buy a different, unnecessary, jumbled operating system that is greatly unknown except for the fact it is sold under the same software name in hopes of instantly popularizing what novice designer/developers "think" is cool.
I can't simply BUY into the notion of "put on your big boy pants" as mentioned in another post, because I clearly see the disparity in quality between 3.5 and 4.0. 3.5 was a revision based greatly on fixing things for the end-user. 4.0 and seeming plans to release 5.0, 6.0, 7.0 in faster, more rapid iterations is just unacceptable when there has been such a break of faith in the community of users who appreciate the care with which designers have handled the traditions and trusted culture of three decades. Anyone who calously says, "hey, that's just the way of the world," may not realize the power of consumers to ralley against what seems to be corporate greed and abuse of the mantle of leadership for our precious game. I recognize we live in a world where its true we no longer buy MS Word—we subscribe to MS Word! However, why must our game's heritage be wontonly "re-concepted?" In an epic ending, WOTC has destroyed the realms, abandoned support for 3.5, abandoned it's hisorical fan base, abandoned greyhawk, and thrust their mighty sword +5 of corporate greed into thier own gut.
Epitaph: Here Lies The So-Called 4th Edition-behold the greed that changed our game from a story of heroes fighting for good to an incoherent munchkin realm where morality involves killing stuff, taking stuff, and buying more stuff... and buying more stuff... and buying more stuff... and buying more stuff... and buying more stuff...
RPG Superstar 2013
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Who? Voldemort? D'oh! I said it!Dungeon and Dragons is dead.
The company that is supposed to own it, has destroyed it. I will never buy another product from you-know-who.
Admittedly: thus far I don't like a lot of what I have read about 4e so far, but I don't have it in a context yet, either.
Pronouncing the game dead, and assuming there's a 4.5 already in the oven just because someone referred to it as 4.0 is highly self-important and unreasonable.
You know, DND might appeal to the new market the company is aiming for. And since, by and large, we are a community of self-important, smug types who love to sit on our ass and critique the work that someone else has the balls to actually write and market, I hopw they do get lots of new attention and sales from their new target. It isn't like we've been recruiting new customers and treating new gamers as if they will some day be important to the hobby. Hell, we can't even get the so-called faithfdul to agree that they should actually pay for the product instead of steal it from a pdf and say 'serves those corporate bastards right.
If you don't like 4e, try to recognize we got where we are today for a reason. DnD makes less money than any other kind of game because we don't value new players and customers, so we scare them off or offend them. And we don't treat the makers of the game with any kind of respect. We piss on them because of our vague and ultimately pointless assumptions.
I know there's a lot of love for Paizo here. But I weep for the great gamers here because should they ever decide to change their business model, a certain 'class' of self-righteous lurker will get their feelings hurt and then out come the pitch forks.
Jesus. It is just a game. And if you don't like the changes, admit that as a community that we are responsible for them. Want to create an incentive for a maintained 3.5 license? Buy books, and run games for new people and encourage them to buy books. And if you aren't a champion for the hobby, don't complain when it evolves.
Rant over. I have to go back to work.
Did all of us already forget that these same people were working on 3.5E just as soon as they released 3.0E? (as stated by Monte Cook a dozen times already)
Oh, I am sure they are going to start planning the new edition the day after the release. I don't believe it'll be called 4.5. I'd sooner believe it'll be called 4R (4th edition revised). There actually is a very good marketting reason why not to call 4.5 "4.5". Short of the long. If they call the revised 4.5, then they won't be able to convince anyone to buy 5.0. Everyone will just say, "We're going to wait for 5.5"
But either way, what I am saying is that I don't believe they are working on it at this exact moment.
They aren't working on it at this exact moment because they're waiting a few months so they can tell us how we were playing 4th edition wrong...
Admittedly: thus far I don't like a lot of what I have read about 4e so far, but I don't have it in a context yet, either.
Pronouncing the game dead, and assuming there's a 4.5 already in the oven just because someone referred to it as 4.0 is highly self-important and unreasonable.
It's very reasonable. It is very dead to most grognards, that's for damn sure.
You know, DND might appeal to the new market the company is aiming for. And since, by and large, we are a community of self-important, smug types who love to sit on our ass and critique the work that someone else has the balls to actually write and market, I hopw they do get lots of new attention and sales from their new target. It isn't like we've been recruiting new customers and treating new gamers as if they will some day be important to the hobby. Hell, we can't even get the so-called faithdul to agree that they should actually pay for the product instead of steal it from a pdf and say 'serves those corporate bastards right.
The new market is not necessarily the RIGHT market for the survival of D&D or anything remotely related to D&D.
If you don't like 4e, try to recognize we got where we are today for a reason. DnD makes less money than any other kind of game because we don't value new players and customers, so we scare them off or offend them. And we don't treat the makers of the game with any kind of respect. We piss on them because of our vague and ultimately pointless assumptions.
No, the reason why it makes less money is because all this generation cares about is hack&slash, loot, move on to the next room, doesn't like to read books, hates too many numbers, must be told how to play a game, and only care about visually seeing things and not just using their imagination. The Tabletop Gaming will NEVER outsell any other gaming type, period. Hell, it can't even freaking beat the damn Ouija board for goodness sake. It will always be a niche market and the only folk that has kept it alive for 30 years are the very same "grognards" they're alienating.
I know there's a lot of love for Paizo here. But I weep for the great gamers here because should they ever decide to change their business model, a certain 'class' of self-righteous lurker will get their feelings hurt and then out come the pitch forks.
It's true, I refuse to support companies that support the crap WotC is forcing down everyone's throats. It just gives them all that much more power when it should be taken away from them.
Jesus. It is just a game. And if you don't like the changes, admit that as a community that we are responsible for them. Want to create an incentive for a maintained 3.5 license? Buy books, and run games for new people and encourage them to buy books. And...
We were responsible for them until WotC decided not to listen to us anymore, but the "new target audience" of WoW and FFXI players. The wrong people to turn to when it comes to Tabletop RPGs, and any self-respecting Tabletop Gamer can agree with that.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Well, I would grant that your response to my post is more reasoned than most 'burn 'em at the stake' posts, but I still disagree.
Businesses follow the money. There are a lot of people working for WotC that have been these lifelong gamers, and I doubt the likes of Mearls and Slaviscek are jumping the old-school ship in favor of this MMORPish game that hasn't really been unveiled yet, unless they feel they are giving the game a facelift that will preserve DnD.
Now I don't know them personally, just like I don't know Erik Mona.
(but it was really cool to shake your hand, dude)
But can you see Mr Mona retooling the game in a manner clearly willing to throw you or me overboard without a good reason?
We judge a lot, but what do we contribute? Gamers didn't suddenly become creepy and high-browed and smelly in response to WotC not listening to us. Either we taught them that they can do what they want and we'll drink the kool-aid, or we taught them that we are just gonna steal their product and kibitz their game from our couch and not contribute menaingfully to the development of the hobby.
I present as evidence most local game stores. Focused more on cards and minis than books. And why? Because of the money. But why are gamers focused on those games? NOT because of the money. They could finance their own presidential campaign with the money they spend on Warhammer or WizKids (screw WizKids, by the way)or VS. Those games have product champions who know the game and recruit players and make the game look fun.
We make the game look complicated, and somehow nerdier than all other games. Am I a bigger nerd than the 40 year old guy who plays Yu Gi Oh? Nope, but in the public's eye we're equivocal.
We are bad PR, and our response to change is 'let those bastards rot with their money'. We should be changing the game, not them. But we don't send messages to tell WotC what to do. I grant, they dson't ask. Not to the extent that Open Design or Paizo asks. But we could find a way.
There is a card game, L5R. And there was a time when if you wanted to impact the story and direction of the card game, you corrupted your deck for easy victory. And sometimes, players of clans have risen up and organized these movements: as one voice (in this case a subset of voices), they forced an Honorable Dragon Movement, or they convinced Scorpion players to limit themselves to Tainted, or whatever. The point is the players organized a voice and spoke with it.
Instead of 'off with their heads', we should have a voice, and it should tell WotC that we love their game, but we want roleplaying and skillsets and complicated builds, rather than dumb-downed monkey-goblin poop (if that indeed is what we get). We could extend the 3.5 license, or we could beg for Greyhawk. But the tired, smug crap about 'only for the money' or 'I'll just wait three months for 4.5' doesn't tell them anything.
The question is, how do we become champions at this point? Is it too late?
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Instead of 'off with their heads', we should have a voice, and it should tell WotC that we love their game, but we want roleplaying and skillsets and complicated builds, rather than dumb-downed monkey-goblin poop (if that indeed is what we get). We could extend the 3.5 license, or we could beg for Greyhawk. But the tired, smug crap about 'only for the money' or 'I'll just wait three months for 4.5' doesn't tell them anything.
The question is, how do we become champions at this point? Is it too late?
Thank you ancient sensei, for your words of wisdom on the matter.
You raised some pretty interesting questions.
First I believe that indeed RPGs are not for everybody. I say is because at some point, I tried to convert some of my non-gamer friends to D&D, and I succeeded in few cases.
The turn-off is the huge number of books, and the fact that you remain seated focusing on a game for endless hours. Some people just plain don't like this, even if they are great friends.
Then tell them about the cost ... I think I could have several cars by selling my D&D collection.
And then, bring a newbie player to a table with a rules lawyers ... how many LGH games, which could have been enjoyable have been sabotaged by a two-hours rules discussion in the middle of a sword swing ?
So no, D&D is not for everybody, and I agree with Razz here, it is futile to believe there is any chance it will ever be more than a niche market.
What makes things worse, is indeed the WoW phenomenon. people who would otherwise be interested in a game of D&D can now have kind of a fantasy fix from their sofas.
4e is maybe more of an attempt to get these players than the rest of the crowd. And from a business perspective, that would make sense.
Alienating any part of your current audience is however stupid. Let's put it bluntly : NO company ever fires its customers. That's one of the basic rules of business.
You can indeed target specific parts of your audience more than some others, but you always try to keep everybody on board. the communication from WOTC is really bad on this part.
Now, why do you think they believe they can pull this off ?
Because, for every year so far, we have bought their products, even if they were badly written, even if we had no need for them, even if we don't read them.
Of course, some people complained, but not enough, so ... Why would they care ?
Much like TSR felt at some point, they believe themselves invincible, and they have every right to, since people keep singing their praise on a lot of forums.
It is already too late to change anything on 4e, as it is nearing print, and they don't ask you for input anyways. The three corebooks will sell well, even if they were written by a monkey, just because of the logo. Sales will go up.
After that, if the products are bad, sales will resume going down. Until the next edition.
But whatever happens, the official word from WOTC will always be that they rock, because admitting failure is not a part of corporate culture.
So I believe our best bet is to make enough noise that we still want 3.5 products, and if there is enough interest, and enough spent on them, then it might happen, even if not necessarily by WOTC.
And if we do not like something, the best way is not to buy it, and pubicly state why.
Oh, I am sure they are going to start planning the new edition the day after the release. I don't believe it'll be called 4.5. I'd sooner believe it'll be called 4R (4th edition revised). There actually is a very good marketting reason why not to call 4.5 "4.5". Short of the long. If they call the revised 4.5, then they won't be able to convince anyone to buy 5.0. Everyone will just say, "We're going to wait for 5.5"
I read a lot of the posts but I may have missed someone saying this:
Ahhh Void_Eagle said it.
I agree. Perhaps the person who said 4.0 did it out of usage habit. THere was 3rd then 3.5, there will be 4th, so it would be easy to slip up and say 4.0. The fact that this kind of labeling is common in computer programming increases the tendency to speak of editions in this way.
Pronouncing the game dead, and assuming there's a 4.5 already in the oven just because someone referred to it as 4.0 is highly self-important and unreasonable.
Self-important and unreasonable?
LOL
I'm sure posting that made him feel very important, people often write voluble blustery posts to feel important. OP, do you feel important?
Ancientsensei... is it necessary to make personal remarks? THAT is something I expect from the self-important.
Unreasonable? Well, he is just speculating, so maybe he should say that clearly, but.... history does repeat itself and WotC has made a habit of repeating poor decision, sooooooo.
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Razz, even I'm not that much of a conspiracy theorist to believe that they already have a 4.5 in the works (or even on the drawing boards) at this time. It is certainly possible that there will be a 4.5, but I can't believe that they're already planning it.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were planning 4.5, but even I think that her saying 4.0 instead of 4th edition isn't exactly air tight evidence that they are planning 4.5. Their past history, however, is much better "evidence" of the possiblity for 4.5 than her sound bite.
I read a lot of the posts but I may have missed someone saying this:
Ahhh Void_Eagle said it.
I agree. Perhaps the person who said 4.0 did it out of usage habit.
Agreed.
Their past history, however, is much better "evidence" of the possiblity for 4.5 than her sound bite.
Doubly agreed.
OP, do you feel important?
It's not that I feel important, I feel betrayed.
D&D developed it's own "fluff", as we call it, and it has become mainstream for 30+ years without the help of WotC at all. That, alone, should tell anyone D&D will never die.
But, I agree, it will not make (in the words of Dr. Evil) "A billion dollars..." And, honestly, I don't believe it ever will for many reasons. Yet WotC believes they can do it. And if it means destroying all the core concepts of D&D just for the sake of change, just so they can tell US how to play a game, and just so they can make it easier for the uncaring MMORPG players out there is simply ludicrous.
Law, Chaos, Evil, Good, Neutrality are all cosmic forces of the multiverse. Elves are the elder race living centuries. Paladins are Lawful Good. Dwarves have better vision in darker areas due to their tendency to be an underground race. Representatives of the cosmic forces exist: Archons, Angels, Guardinals, Eladrins, Devils, Demons, Yugoloths, Slaad, Rilmani, and Modrons. Half-orcs have a place in the game.
These, and many others, are suddenly wiped out just because WotC had some alien reason why it would make the game better when it doesn't. It destroys people's current campaigns. At least most of them. For them to not even attempt to KEEP these in the game just reeks of superiority and the fact they really don't give a crap who they piss off in the process of their self-righteous crusade of "making 4E the best D&D edition ever, because all your other editions really sucked, that is until we bring along 5th Edition."
That's what I loved about all the other editions. You were given the tools and options, and you ran with what you wanted. If you wanted more hack&slash, then grab a monster manual and run it. If you wanted more role-play, then the books offered tons of fluff such as monster ecologies, habitats and society, rules for running a business, and all other sorts of information to run a more heavy role play game.
But for WotC to have the nerve to literally state in Races&Classes that "D&D is not about interacting, it's about slaying monsters" is really self-centered (or just appealing to large demographic of MMORPG players out there, who only care about the kill and the loot).
Imagine if Hasbro were to suddenly change the rules of Monopoly just so "people can sit, have a game of Monopoly, streamline the rules and make it easier so so the game can finish in just an hour?" Everyone tailors their own Monopoly game. Some allow auctions, some don't bother with it. Everyone has their own unique rules to Free Parking. Imagine if they said something like "We're taking out Free Parking because it never made sense and it's just one more board square to deal with in order to get to pass Go, which is something most people only care about anyway." or, better yet, "We're going have it where Free Parking actually does this, cause it's better for the game." and something like,"We want all the places you purchase to be as equally important, so we modified the rules for those too."
Not that many people would enjoy all this and many people would definitely state,"This isn't Monopoly anymore, how dare they! What is this crap and what was so terribly wrong with it before?"
D&D wasn't broke. It needed patches, yes, like any system. But it did not need to be thrown in the trash and suddenly presented with a new, shiny model that barely resembled the old.
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I sincerely hope they are thinking about 4.5. I would hope that they have R&D thinking about improvements all the time. Heck, when 3.0 first came out and we played a few games I sent Wizards a small list of rules questions hoping that they had thought about some of the problems we were encountering.
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It's kinda like buying a new model automobile the first year it comes out.
Do you want to buy it, or let the other guys buy it, fumble around with the problems, let the manufacturer figure out how to fix it, and then buy it in 3 years when it actually works?
I'm pretty sure they are gearing up for 4.5 in some way shape or form, unless Hasbro's going to do one last pump and dump and forget the whole thing. Who knows?
You know, its threads like this that make sure that, not matter how well reasoned and diplomatic my misgivings with 4th edition are presented, they will fall into the "4th edition haters" label, because of the louder, sillier arguments out there.
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Yeah, I think the whole "4.0" statement this thread is based on is a bit of a reach. It could infer a 4.5, or it could infer that the speaker was used to saying "3.0," or "3.5" so much that saying "4.0" is just a natural slip of the tongue.
Regardless, the PHB's and/or core books are the big sales items, so there's a definite economic impetus for WOTC to create more PHB's.
It stands to reason that if the new PHB every year model doesn't at least come close to the comparative revenue flow from a new edition, then a "4.5" or whatever it will be called is the next step.
I wonder, too, with all the grumbling about sacred cows if one of "4.5's" big selling points won't be a resurrection of said cows.
D&D getting back to it's roots, so to speak.
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No, the reason why it makes less money is because all this generation cares about is hack&slash, loot, move on to the next room...
You could be describing a lot of 1st Edition players I knew!
There's a reason Hackmaster was popular. It may be seen by many as a parody, but it can't be denied that it's a very accurate parody of how many groups actually played.
I think the general opinion is that it nails the 'old-school, first-edition-feel' with great success.
I think with the plans WOTC have to print a PH, DMG, and MM each year, we are going to see all of the additions, subtractions, and corrections to the game without them claiming it is a new edition. I think this is one of the reasons (but an important one) they are taking this approach. If things are messed up really bad, they may have to use one of these yearly updates to reprint the entire book. If things are not messed up to bad we will get it in tidbits. What concerns me is if they do this in tidbits, we will have the basic information which has been corrected spread out throughout a few books. It could become difficult to find the updated rules if they take that approach.
I think if they do decide to reprint the PH for example as one of the yearly updates, they will make the claim that it isn't a new addition, just a yearly update. They will read in between the lines on this one. Players and DMs will interpret it however they want, be it an update or a new version.
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It isn't like we've been recruiting new customers and treating new gamers as if they will some day be important to the hobby. Hell, we can't even get the so-called faithful to agree that they should actually pay for the product instead of steal it from a pdf and say 'serves those corporate bastards right.
I agree that this is a problem; I'm just not sure that the current younger generation are the ones to be trusted not to engage in rampant piracy and file-sharing, though.
I'm not saying I've never viewed a pirated file, but at least I felt dirty afterwards. Mention terms like 'copyright', 'acceptable use' and 'intellectual property' to a kid these days, and you'll get either a blank look, or some claptrap about 'stickin' it to The Man'.
I bet the music companies have hundreds of calls every year from indignant 'customers' demanding to know why the disc they bought from 'some guy round the back of the pub' doesn't play....
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I've heard at least one ethics professor say there is an ethical downslide in this country,.... recent two hour-long ethics class for work....
I don't think it can be necessarily laid at the feet of the younger, more computer savvy generation. We of a certain age have to take responsibility for the world we have made.
I've heard at least one ethics professor say there is an ethical downslide in this country,.... recent two hour-long ethics class for work....
I don't think it can be necessarily laid at the feet of the younger, more computer savvy generation. We of a certain age have to take responsibility for the world we have made.
Good point Heathy. In think our generation and some of those in the one directly proceeding ours really mastered the idea of "we can imply something, and damn near say it, but as long we don't technically say it, we aren't lying," and that mindset has seeped into a lot of things. That's not the "kids" fault, its the fault of the generation setting the pace at the top currently.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I've heard at least one ethics professor say there is an ethical downslide in this country,.... recent two hour-long ethics class for work....
I don't think it can be necessarily laid at the feet of the younger, more computer savvy generation. We of a certain age have to take responsibility for the world we have made.
As a kid who grew up being allowed to get away with almost anything by hippie parents who believed in 'letting me find my own way', I'm entirely comfortable laying the blame at the feet of hands-off parenting.
ITT: tinfoil hats.
They promised there will not be a 4.5 but they never promised 4th edition advanced or some other adjective.
OP, do you feel important?
It's not that I feel important, I feel betrayed.
Yah, I was posting an ironic statement because ancientsensei pissed me off. I totally hear you man.
You know, its threads like this that make sure that, not matter how well reasoned and diplomatic my misgivings with 4th edition are presented, they will fall into the "4th edition haters" label, because of the louder, sillier arguments out there.
I'm right there with you, KEJR. I'm right there with you.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You know, its threads like this that make sure that, not matter how well reasoned and diplomatic my misgivings with 4th edition are presented, they will fall into the "4th edition haters" label, because of the louder, sillier arguments out there.I'm right there with you, KEJR. I'm right there with you.
Me three,
The desperation to find something conspiratorial in WotC's actions is pathetic. Of course they're going to eventually revise/revisit/reedit the rules. No system is perfect, no system is static (well, Rules Cyclopedia may be an exception, but since I'm not playing it, it's clear it has issues too)
Something I always teach the newbies at work is "Do not blame on malice what can be explained by stupidity." So they call it 4.0 as an accident? So what?
Razz, put down the kool-aid and back away from the keyboard, very slowly...
So they call it 4.0 as an accident? So what?
Hell, I call it 4.0 sometimes. But I blame that on software. I think that if the hadn't called 3.5 "3.5", no one would call it 4.0. But now we're use to thinking of D&D editions like software. So its only natural to use the terminology of software.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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You're reading way more into this than you should. I suspect that the designers call it 4.0 because it fits in the 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 progression and for no other reason.
I frankly wouldn't be surprised at all if the books don't even say "fourth edition" anywhere on them. I suspect very shortly WotC will refer to the game as "Dungeons & Dragons," without any sort of number qualifier whatsoever.
They almost seem to be behind schedule on 4.0. I do not think they even have the time to worry about later editions or iterations of the rules right now.
