Ok, after being served heaps of unnecessary vitriol in previous 4E threads, I've generally steered clear. But after reading the preview books and the last month or so of information on the net, it seems clear to me that Paizo will end up going to 4th edition. In fact, my prediction is that not only will Second Darkness be 4E, so will the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting hardback.
Why?
(1) There is simply too much advantage in going with the newest rules. If WOTC manages to draw in new audiences, you want to be there for that. Think about it; if you stay 3.5, you're basically consigning yourself to the fact that your sales (at least those based on original products) have nowhere to go but down. Successful businesses aren't run that way.
(2) Launching the hardback alongside the first 4E setting, with a real shot of outshining it, is just too great an opportunity to pass up. Besides, why launch your flagship new setting with an out-of-print ruleset? And all the talk of lead times is irrelevant in this case...this product is already announced.
If Paizo hasn't come to the same conclusion yet, they soon will. At most they'll release the campaign setting and Second Darkness dual-statted, which will prove to be a short lived mistake.
No doubt some people will disagree, and others will actually get angry (?). I'm not spoiling for a fight...I just think the writing is on the wall and I wanted to call it "on the record" so to speak.
Ok, after being served heaps of unnecessary vitriol in previous 4E threads, I've generally steered clear.
If you have had too much vitriol, then why are you bothering to stir up the pot again?
Besides, there really hasn't been as much vitriol as posters have claimed. Most of that was the claimants assuming a certain tone in a post that wasn't really there.
But to each their own.
I do believe your post is troll-bait, even if not intentional.
((And "for the record," I call that the OGL will 'scare off' Paizo from making 4th Edition products.))
Did somebody call for me?
I see paizo switchin to 4e, there are a lot more kids/children/young adults whom will buy into the 4e machine, Why keep a bunch of grumpy old grognards for a customer base? are there that many of us grognards?
Besides there's gold to be had in 4e, modules are now $29.95-so a super module be like $49.95...Laughter all the way to the bank!
For the record I am a grognard and proud of it..I will not go to 4e just not my cup of tea/slice o'pie/etc...
*NOTE: Not all grognards are grumpy. D&D gets passed on to another generation whom grew up on a different taste of fanasty..Yesterday I said I believe 4e is gonna belly up..nah I don't think so really it's gonna sell like coke at studio 54...
Did somebody call for me?
I think you kinda look more like a slaad. Yes? No? Maybe? Only on Monday-Tuesdays?
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I suspect the OP is right - I would be very surprised if Paizo don't go with 4E, as the new edition will stir interest in D&D not only for WotC but for Paizo too. Also, Paizo will be taking a risk sticking with an edition of the game which has no official support. A splitting of the D&D community would be no good for WotC but it would hurt all participating companies - it would limit the sales for all those participating in the market. The logic, as I see it, is pretty inescapable commercially - it is in no one's interest for that to happen, it would be the death knell for D&D. So everyone has a strong incentive to support WotC and 4e.
Of course, any discussion of this is pure speculation. Very few of us posting here really know anything, and the ones who do know aren't saying (for perfectly sensible, commercial reasons). Until the contents of the OGL are known, and possibly plenty of other factors none of us are aware of, any of the 4e threads are repositories for hot air and probably trollbait. It is fun to speculate, of course, but I'm deciding nothing until I know more. As far as I know, that is Paizo's view too.
I suspect the OP is right - I would be very surprised if Paizo don't go with 4E, as the new edition will stir interest in D&D not only for WotC but for Paizo too. Also, Paizo will be taking a risk sticking with an edition of the game which has no official support. A splitting of the D&D community would be no good for WotC but it would hurt all participating companies - it would limit the sales for all those participating in the market. The logic, as I see it, is pretty inescapable commercially - it is in no one's interest for that to happen, it would be the death knell for D&D. So everyone has a strong incentive to support WotC and 4e.
Of course, any discussion of this is pure speculation. Very few of us posting here really know anything, and the ones who do know aren't saying (for perfectly sensible, commercial reasons). Until the contents of the OGL are known, and possibly plenty of other factors none of us are aware of, any of the 4e threads are repositories for hot air and probably trollbait. It is fun to speculate, of course, but I'm deciding nothing until I know more. As far as I know, that is Paizo's view too.
Agreed.
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3.5 is a sophisticated rule set consistent with the tradition of Dungeons and Dragons. 4E is a clear departure from that tradition. The time is right for a revolution in the way we think of our game. Is this hobby of ours simply owned by the biggest corporation with the least imagination? Or, as consumers do we SHOUT back about the sick treatment and greed that has manifested in this new game they seek to sell under the name D&D? The voices of gamers could move mountains. The question I'm asking is who has the integrity to stand up to the ringlords right now in this historic moment?
*crickets*
Yes, I tend to agree that the handwriting is on the wall. Still, hope springs eternal. There are a few ways I'm sure we can think of to outsmart Wizards at their own game (pun intended).
are there that many of us grognards?
If This poll is accurate, and I don't claim it is, then there are quite a bit more of us "grognards" than many of the "Paizo has to go 4th Edition" posters realize.
Again though, I am not claiming that poll is an accurate representation of Paizos customer base. It is the only info I have to go on for this topic.
Of course Paizo's going 4e - they have to or they'll get left behind. The only real question is, "When?"
What I'm really hoping is that Paizo will continue to support BOTH 4e and 3.5e. Why should they trade one market for another when they can have both? It might take a little shuffling of resources, but I'm betting they can pull it off.
I even have an idea of one way they can do it: Suppose Paizo starts accepting adventure submissions in a non-statted, edition-neutral format similar to that of an RPGA adventure without the stat blocks. A staff member or hired designer could provide the stats. For those products that will have broad appeal to everyone, stat blocks for both editions can be made available. If the product will appeal only to 4e fans, then only 4e stat blocks need be supplied. The same goes for products that will appeal primarily to 3.x fans, of course. For adventuers that are of less than premium quality, Paizo can make them available only in .pdf format, with stats for either system (or both) available at the time of purchase in a separate file.
That's just a thought off the top of my head. I'm sure it needs a little development, but I bet Paizo can make it work. You listening, Lisa? Erik?
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Of course Paizo's going 4e - they have to or they'll get left behind. The only real question is, "When?"
What I'm really hoping is that Paizo will continue to support BOTH 4e and 3.5e. Why should they trade one market for another when they can have both? It might take a little shuffling of resources, but I'm betting they can pull it off.
I even have an idea of one way they can do it: Suppose Paizo starts accepting adventure submissions in a non-statted, edition-neutral format similar to that of an RPGA adventure without the stat blocks. A staff member or hired designer could provide the stats. For those products that will have broad appeal to everyone, stat blocks for both editions can be made available. If the product will appeal only to 4e fans, then only 4e stat blocks need be supplied. The same goes for products that will appeal primarily to 3.x fans, of course. For adventuers that are of less than premium quality, Paizo can make them available only in .pdf format, with stats for either system (or both) available at the time of purchase in a separate file.
That's just a thought off the top of my head. I'm sure it needs a little development, but I bet Paizo can make it work. You listening, Lisa? Erik?
The problem of Paizo supporting both is (assuming what WotC has said holds true) the monsters used in a 4e module, will NOT be even in Challenge Rating with the same type of monster in 3.5e. So therefore Paizo will have to come up with an entirely different monster to be used in the 3.5e module. Yes I said module, I am old school, get over it. :)
Now if Paizo wanted to outsource a position like that (HINT: pick me, pick me!) then I am all for it, but its not a cost efficient situation for them.
Hopefully, Paizo will wait a long time before "firing their customer base" and joining 4e.
What I'm really hoping is that Paizo will continue to support BOTH 4e and 3.5e. Why should they trade one market for another when they can have both? It might take a little shuffling of resources, but I'm betting they can pull it off.
From what little we've seen of 4.0, it's not at all obvious there's an easy or simple conversion between 3.5 and 4.0.
First, there's no good way to deal with things like Dragonborn or Warlords that are in the 4.0 SRD and not in the 3.5 SRD. So right there, you start having to do some tricky rewriting (turn the Dragonborn into Lizardfolk for 3.5? Ignore all the new races and classes? Maybe make the Warlord a Bard, but now we have to rewrite all the tactics blocks). Then you get into the really difficult problems--since alignment (apparently) works in vastly different ways between 3.5 and 4.0, if you have an investigative mod you suddenly need to worry about a paladin blowing up the plot by detecting evil at the wrong time. Magic items are going to work differently, so if you've got an NPC capable of producing X scrolls in a week in 3.5, they're probably going to produce Y scrolls a week in 4.0. If that's an important plot point, you need to rewrite it entirely. Or the "dominate person" spell the villain cast isn't available in 4.0, so you need to invent a whole different plot device.
These problems aren't exactly insurmountable, but they do represent a lot of time and effort, and they have the net result of making a weaker product--you can make a great 4.0 product that sort of works in 3.5, or a great 3.5 product that sort of works in 4.0. I wouldn't be happy putting that much effort into a less-than-great product, and if you want a great product for 3.5 and 4.0, I think you have to write two separate products.
I have no problem with Paizo going 4th Ed at all- it makes no financial sense backing a defunct rules set. That said, if they offer 3.5 support/ conversion of some level, I'll be keeping my subscription (even Green Ronin's True20 RotRL PDFs could suffice).
I still find it so humerous that these are the exact same arguments that I heard when it went from AD&D 2nd ed. to 3rd. While there are still some 2nd ed. hold outs out there, I think you will find that most of those who claimed they would never switch did so. Or perhaps they all did leave the hobby and that many people have just joined... who knows.
For my 2 cents I think the OP is right... although I would surprised if the CS is actually 4e just because of timing. I do think it likely that Paizo will switch.
I also think it is likely that many people talking about how horrible 4e is before seeing it will be surprised by it. I am not saying it is good... I haven't seen it either... but frankly I think WotC has done a fair job with D&D (3rd ed) even if I didn't agree on every point and they get the benefit of the doubt until I actually see the thing.
Is that really such a crazy thought? Wanting to see it before making up my mind that I would never switch until you pry 3rd ed. from my cold dead hands?
Sean Mahoney
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There is one Path for Paizo that does not offend the 3rd Generation and those who go 4th:
They can make the Campaign Setting Book without any reference to a system!
See, Green Ronin did this with their Pirate's Guide to Freeport. 256 Pages full of Fluff!
And now they produce Guides for their True20 system and the D20 system. These Guides include important NPC stats, variant rules, PRCs and so on.
I think this is a brilliant way to go:
1) Golarion Fluff only without space consuming Stat-Blocks.
2) Even Non D&D Players might pic this Book up and use it for their system
3) The Guides with the mechanics and Stat Blocks are firmly in the hand of the DM and no Player "accidently" sees the Stats of the Linnorm King while looking up infos on his home village.
4) This might even be financial advantageous for Paizo as they sell the Cmapaign Guide and the MEchanics Guides!
5) Maybe other Companies will use Golarion for their Game. i can think of a True20 conversion for example.
I for my part will pimp the systemless Campaign Guide!
IMO, the only way to NOT alienate 3rd edition players while at the same time going 4e is to make Second Darkness and the Campaign setting 4e books, but to provide a downloadable 3.5e conversion. I suppose they would be able to pull this off for a time, but I fear for "continued" 3.5 support. I hope I'm wrong, though.
I still find it so humerous that these are the exact same arguments that I heard when it went from AD&D 2nd ed. to 3rd. While there are still some 2nd ed. hold outs out there, I think you will find that most of those who claimed they would never switch did so.
I find it anything but humorous that some people still try to compare this edition change to any previous edition change.
Just because the arguments might sounds similar, doesn't mean the results will be any where near the same.
We will have to wait and see what the sales figures might be like.
EDIT:: By the way, this:
than many of the "Paizo has to go 4th Edition" posters realize.
should read "posters seem to realize."
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Think about it; if you stay 3.5, you're basically consigning yourself to the fact that your sales (at least those based on original products) have nowhere to go but down. Successful businesses aren't run that way.
If the decision was that straightforward, it would be made already. Or do you think the decision is made, and Paizo's just putting off breaking the bad news to the majority of their fanbase? The poll cited above is the only source of numbers you have to go by, so the use of the word 'majority' does seem appropriate.
Besides, why launch your flagship new setting with an out-of-print ruleset? And all the talk of lead times is irrelevant in this case...this product is already announced.
The new setting is already launched with an out-of-print ruleset. That's in the past. Paizo has a subscriber base *right now* that buys the 3.5 version. You're assuming that this subscriber base will survive if and when they jump editions. They may make that decision, but I haven't seen that announcement.
And the talk of lead-times isn't in any way irrelevant. You can't make a day have more than 24 hours. If Paizo is just now getting a look at the rules, then they have between now and the time they have to push the first 3rd AP adventure out the door to master that ruleset to the point that they feel comfortable creating in it. Not playing it, but writing for it. My sense is that if they do make the decision to go 4e with the Second Darkness, then the encounters in those adventures will need serious revision as the play imbalances of 4e are discovered. Better to let those shake out in a couple GM modules rather than fouling an entire AP.
Maybe things will play out as you say, but I don't think the outlook is anything near so straightforward as you claim. If and when Paizo decides to take the APs to 4e, they are going to take a hit to their subscriber base. The sheer number of folks on these boards against the new edition guarantees that. There are no such guarantees on the other side of the coin.
Besides, why launch your flagship new setting with an out-of-print ruleset?
I think this is the real kicker. I'm getting the Gazetter simply because I know that'll be in 3.5. If Paizo goes 4E, I won't blame them in the slightest. I won't be happy, but thus is life.
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There is one Path for Paizo that does not offend the 3rd Generation and those who go 4th:
They can make the Campaign Setting Book without any reference to a system!
See, Green Ronin did this with their Pirate's Guide to Freeport. 256 Pages full of Fluff!
And now they produce Guides for their True20 system and the D20 system. These Guides include important NPC stats, variant rules, PRCs and so on.
Good idea. I just finished reading through Cults of Freeport, and I really liked the book. I think Green Ronin really hit on a good way to do their setting.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Good idea. I just finished reading through Cults of Freeport, and I really liked the book. I think Green Ronin really hit on a good way to do their setting.
now if only they'd get the d20 freeport guide out the door! *sighs, taps foot*
I do think Paizo publishing something in 4.x is inevitable. Resistance is futile and all. I'm hoping 2nd darkness is 3.5 and, as others have said, Game Mastery is a test bed for Pazio to work with 4x mechanics.
Come on Wizards, keep dragging your feet on getting that paperwork out!
Come on Wizards, keep dragging your feet on getting that paperwork out!
I selfishly agree.
Im sure its just a matter of "when" and not "if" (unless 4th edition tanks which is a possibility).
Paizo in an effort to appease their fans really should make the 3rd adventure path 3.5. The feel of Paizo's campaign setting is for grognards anyway. I know thats wasnt the original intent but thats what the case is now.
Honestly if the third one is 3.5 and Pathfinder #19 is fourth edition I will be Ok no hard feelings I will understand.
If Pathfinder #13 is 4th edition I'll feel unreasonably betrayed in a way. Its silly but I cant help it.
Paizo can make plenty if 4th edition moduals and products right away. I dont see why it has to be Pathfinder gettign messed with immediatly.
Maybe I'm just anal...But if I was a new player who started in on the hobby at 4th edition I wouldnt want to buy Pathfinder anyway.
It wouldnt match the fluff Im used to...plus who would want to jump in at issue #13 or #19? The collector in me would want to go back and collect them all from issue #1. And if previous issues are not 4th edition it would just turn me off from the whole series.
Man, why do I keep posting when I tell myself I'm not going to anymore?
Anyway, if 4th edition does as well as WOTC hopes it does, then it probably doesn't make a lot of sense for Paizo not to convert over, unless the SRD is particularly problematic for them.
That having been said, if Paizo jumps onto 4th edition more or less right after the release of the system, without seeing how its going to do, its kind of the "end of the line" for any 3.5 support. They can't really spare the manpower or the effort to do both systems "halfway" and I don't think that would make anyone happy one way or the other.
Erik mentioned that if 4th edition is horribly bad, its not a question because they won't use it, and if its brilliant, its not a problem, because it will be the best thing since sliced bread, the problem is if its "eh." If its "eh," nobody knows how 4th edition will sell, even in the short term, and this is why none of this is automatic yet.
I do hope that Second Darkness manages to be 3.5, and as has been said, if the fourth adventure path ends up 4th edition, after all is said and done and some facts and figures come in, I'll understand even if I'm not on board. But that is just what I would prefer. Paizo has to do what is going to be good for Paizo. Part of that is keeping fans happy, but I am by no means representative of their whole fan base.
Man, why do I keep posting when I tell myself I'm not going to anymore?
Because it is addicting!
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If the original post is a troll, then think of this as a gnome trying to grapple a troll…
I have all the pity on Paizo decision makers if what I think will happen will happen. There was lots of vague references around the fact the new OGL will have a set of content clauses that will prevent folks selling “the book of erotic sex” and “the gritty module that sacrifices dogs and innocents” and similar stuff and being able to claim it is for D&D.
I’m wondering if the stuff I’ve seen in Pathfinder already isn’t going to fall right under this clause. So will Paizo go 4e and hope their grumbling grognards among them (including me) eventually put up or shut up AND sell Golarion’s ‘soul’ of grit and hard-hitting stories or will Pathfinder go vanilla in tone to comply with WotC’s rules?
Or will they stick with their statement which went something like “we won’t go 4e if we can’t tell the stories we want to tell or are forced to alter our world” and thus hang around with 3.5?
As said, I don’t envy the meetings going on soon about this!
-DM Jeff
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Contributor
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I won't speculate as to which way Paizo will go, because I haven't seen the OGL or the SRD.
But I think one big factor in their decision will be (or should be) how much control of the OGL will WotC maintain?
If the new OGL is more like the d20 license than the old OGL, it may give Wizards the right to revoke it and change it at will, and force publishers to comply with the new version (or even stop publishing).
It is true that it would be a risk for Paizo to hang their hopes on a discontinued game system. But it may be more risky to hang their hopes on a system and license that can be taken away and/or changed without notice.
I don't envy them this decision.
One thing I failed to consider in my earlier reasoning is that Paizo occupies a different niche than WotC. In essence, Paizo sells to the hardcore gamer - the dedicated hobbyist roleplayer - while WotC sells to everyone. Because of this Paizo might be able to handle sticking with 3.5e a little longer. My feeling is that they'll still have to convert eventually, but another year or two of 3.5e doesn't seem unreasonable.
Of course, there is the possibility that 4e will truly and deeply suck and that it will fail miserably. I don't expect this to happen for a variety of reasons. If it does happen, though, Paizo might be able to occupy a unique position in the market by becoming "the grognard's store" and sticking with 3.5e much longer. IMO this is an unlikely scenario, but it's fun to think it might happen.
Are they going to give Paizo carte blanche to use or not use the races in the new PHB?
Those that know the answer to this are bound to be under NDA.
Golarion camapign setting Fluff only without space consuming Stat-Blocks.
I believe Erik already said the book is System free.
I believe Erik already said the book is System free.
Nifty^2
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Man, why do I keep posting when I tell myself I'm not going to anymore?
Anyway, if 4th edition does as well as WOTC hopes it does, then it probably doesn't make a lot of sense for Paizo not to convert over, unless the SRD is particularly problematic for them.
That having been said, if Paizo jumps onto 4th edition more or less right after the release of the system, without seeing how its going to do, its kind of the "end of the line" for any 3.5 support. They can't really spare the manpower or the effort to do both systems "halfway" and I don't think that would make anyone happy one way or the other.
Erik mentioned that if 4th edition is horribly bad, its not a question because they won't use it, and if its brilliant, its not a problem, because it will be the best thing since sliced bread, the problem is if its "eh." If its "eh," nobody knows how 4th edition will sell, even in the short term, and this is why none of this is automatic yet.
I do hope that Second Darkness manages to be 3.5, and as has been said, if the fourth adventure path ends up 4th edition, after all is said and done and some facts and figures come in, I'll understand even if I'm not on board. But that is just what I would prefer. Paizo has to do what is going to be good for Paizo. Part of that is keeping fans happy, but I am by no means representative of their whole fan base.
I agree 100%.
Golarion camapign setting Fluff only without space consuming Stat-Blocks.
I believe Erik already said the book is System free.
System light, IIRC. The "crunch" stuff (anything rules-related, with stats, feats, etc.) will be in the end chapter/appendix.
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Here is my take on this. Paizo is a Online Gaming Store. They also are a kick-@ss publisher with Planet Stories, Gamemastery and Pathfinder(plus other stuff). They distribute things from most other gaming companies. They aren't just making money off of Gamemastery and Pathfinder. Sure it is probably a good chunk of income, but I think they can afford to test the waters and see what is going on without falling by the wayside. They are gonna be distributing 4E stuff and they may want to start doing Gamemastery modules in 4E, but they could also decide to make Pathfinder into an RPG all it's own if they so desired, while doing so.
Paizo is in a fairly unique situation and I really have no idea where they are headed but I believe that wherever they are headed is in the best interest of the game. I don't think they will fold their scruples and go 4E if they believe it runs against what D&D is.
I could see them partnering up with some other gaming companies to make an RPG game, I could see them going 4E and making 4E work within their requirements, I could see them staying 3.5 and remaining viable, I can see them building a Pathfinder RPG if they feel like that is the only way to tell the stories they want, But regardless of which path they take, I believe they will try to stay true to D&D's feel.
Too early to tell......*shakes magic 8-ball*
Future is clouded.
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Everybody is a future grognard. We're like zombies on a battlefield.
But you do not have to be. If you walk through life with an open mind you can avoid it.
Take music as an example. I am 40. Yep - 40.
The oldest song on my iPod is from 1994 and most are from 2003 to 2007.
I play xbox. I play WoW. I watch Adult Swim.
I have made a conscious decision to NOT get stuck in one place for too long, to try new things out to see if I like them, and to be willing to put the familiar aside and explore.
Its not for everyone - my wife's best friend is stuck in the 80s - but it can be done.
Mark my words--you will turn too. You just have mor hit points or something. ;)Nah, just the supernatural ability to remain immature no matter what my chronological age happens to be.
Some people don't like change because they are insecure, others don't like change because they are already happy. Others don't like change because they feel everything must be a certain way or the universe might collapse. I still live in the 80's and I'm immature. I also don't like change.
I think you'll see a transition period, where Paizo supports 3.5 and 4E until the 4E numbers get where they need to be.
If Paizo announced today that it's 4E all the way, they risk losing up to 50% of their customer base (per the unscientific message board poll done a couple of months ago). The interesting thing about this poll was that it was the only one I saw on any message board where *so many* were in favor of staying 3.5. EN World was running about 67% *pro* 4E.
Now, I don't think that they would *actually* lose 50% of their customer base, but what effect would it have on the company to lose 10, 20, or 30%?
These are hard decisions that, if they choose one way or the other exclusively, will most-likely hurt Paizo in the short term.
I think the idea of supporting both editions (not with dual-stat products, but with products designed for one or the other) is good for the short term, with an eventual complete move to 4E *if* sales numbers rise with the new edition.
All of this, of course, presumes that the new ruleset won't be as bad as it sounds to me. ;)
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Mark my words--you will turn too. You just have mor hit points or something. ;)Nah, just the supernatural ability to remain immature no matter what my chronological age happens to be.Some people don't like change because they are insecure, others don't like change because they are already happy. Others don't like change because they feel everything must be a certain way or the universe might collapse. I still live in the 80's and I'm immature. I also don't like change.
If it works for you then that is very cool.
Contentment is a worthy goal no matter how it is attained.
My worry is this - I do not want my contentment tied to the continued existence of a product. That gives too much power to a corporate entity.
People that are truly and deeply injured by the change to 4E gave too much control over to something that was completely out of their control.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Dude - you have no idea. My game room is a monument to open mindedness - as is my monthly tally at my local game shop.Open mind--how come most times I've heard that phrase in life, it preceded somebody trying to screw me outta dough?
I'm plenty open minded.
Funny you'd mention that. I've sitting at home on my bookshelf:
My music tastes run from Mozart to Metallica, more and more I like soundtracks though.
Gamingwise, I can't stand ClickyTech, but I've grown to appriciate how Catalyst is mapping out the Jihad.
The key is, don't let your mind be so open that your brain falls out.
If it works for you then that is very cool. Contentment is a worthy goal no matter how it is attained.
My worry is this - I do not want my contentment tied to the continued existence of a product. That gives too much power to a corporate entity.
Eileen said:
I agree. I play Top Secret/S.I. as well and am currently trying to write my own Legion of Super-Heroes game. I don't liked being locked into just one game. This gives me some contentment. But at the same time, if you bounce from one game to the next it is hard to get anywhere with any one of them from a world building/game design point of view.Crosswiredminded wrote:
People that are truly and deeply injured by the change to 4E gave too much control over to something that was completely out of their control.
Eileen said:
I agree that it was out of their control to begin with. I think a lot of people who are displeased with 4th edition fall into the category of already being happy with the game as it is or fall into my category of not wanting any more changes to the game because to many have happened already. It isn't a right or wrong thing, different things for different people. D&D 3.0-3.5 already went further than I like with changes (for me personally) which is one of the reasons I don't have an interest in getting to know the 4th edition version of the game. The primary reason is the cost involved and starting all over with buying books and getting little use out of my current purchases. The fluff changes they have discussed bother me more than the game mechanics however.
Funny you'd mention that. I've sitting at home on my bookshelf
Why are you sitting on a bookshelf?