Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Judging from the other posts by the Paizo staffers, advertisers will only pay if they believe the publication is widely distributed. Furthermore, advertisers don't normally run ads in books, which is what Pathfinder is. Given these facts, it's unlikely that advertisers would be willing to pay a price for space in Pathfinder that would result in a significant decrease in the cost.
I could be entirely incorrect, but that's my understanding.
I would argue, however, that unlike traditional magazines, readers of Dragon and Dungeon are a niche market. Those advertisers already know that the readers of Pathfinder are their market, and if the subscription numbers are good, they might want in. Obviously they couldn't charge as much for ads, but it might help a bit.
Creative Director
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Is there any chance that at some point a Pathfinder series (6 books) will be for a genre other then Fantasy? I really cannot see needing two Adventure Paths a year for Fantasy; at least not after the first year or so. So is there any chance we will see a 6-issue run for Supers, Sci-Fi, Modern, or Pulp thrown into the mix?
Traditionally... non-fantasy RPGs have been the kiss of death. Pathfinder will be focusing its energy on the most popular genre of RPG play as a result. Now, as they say: Never Say Never. There's certainly a possibility some day of a Sci-Fi or Super or Modern adventure path, but if Paizo decides to do one of these, it'll probably be its own thing and not something in Pathfinder.
Cool ! Thanks for the clarification, James.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I would argue, however, that unlike traditional magazines, readers of Dragon and Dungeon are a niche market. Those advertisers already know that the readers of Pathfinder are their market, and if the subscription numbers are good, they might want in. Obviously they couldn't charge as much for ads, but it might help a bit.
Well, if you can successfully make that pitch to advertising agencies, I foresee a future in sales. It's not really a theoretical exercise: advertisers pay for ads or they don't. I can't think of the last time I've seen an ad in a book, even a book that is marketed to a particular niche audience (including other gaming books).
While I'm saddened at the loss of Dragon and especially Dungeon, I've already subscribed to Pathfinder. It sounds like a worthy successor to Dungeon. While I've never sent in a letter to either (soon-to-be-canceled) magazine I've been a silent supporter of both for decades. I've been around both magazines since the late 80's (with a 5 year or so hiatus in the late 90's). The quality of the magazines has only gone up in recent years, since Eric Mona and James Jacobs took over, so that's why I'm buying Pathfinder sight unseen.
Dragon and Dungeon are dead, long live Pathfinder.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Oh I'm not a charter member:( I signed up yesterday and everything...
But I would like to bring up the point to Erik... is the new Setting going to be greyhawk-esque??? I'd only looked the GH in 2e a little but Dungeon and Dragon hooked me into it! I know we can't use WotC's IP but is there gonna be analogies to some of GH's institutions??? What's the "Free City" of the new setting gonna be? Who's the top dog wizard in the land, any evil demonic demi-gods ruling nations, or strange southern slaver monks... LOL
I'm itching to see the new setting in all it's glory. Seeing as I just got done reading Dark Horse's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser I'm fiending for a good metropolis to run a Roguish campaign in!!!
That's a pretty powerful disincentive for customers to shop from me instead of you. For the same price from you they get two products.Speaking as a bookseller, is there any way that I can offer my customers the pdf version? If they want it do they have to buy it from you, or will there be a way for them to obtain it?We'll be selling individual PDFs for $13.95. I suppose we might contemplate making CD-ROM compilations available through retail in future, but even discussing that is a long way off.
Yeah - I want to support my FLGS. I can support them and you at the same time but you have to play nice with them.
Some questions:
Is there any chance of the installments for each Adventure path being collected into a single book like Shackled City?
What's the # of issue conversion rate of switching to the Pathfinder subscription?
And if you initially convert your subscription to Pathfinder but after an issue or two you decide that you don't want it, can you convert the remaining part of your subscription to either other 2 options (store credit or refund)?
In regard to having Pathfinder containing AP's of other genre's . . . sci-fi, horror, and such . . .
I like the idea of keeping Pathfinder fantasy specific. But, assuming it does well and you decide to have another series of books along the same vein as pathfinder but in other genre's . . . I'd like to suggest the name of Starblazer for the scifi equivalent.
Since Paizo is teaming up with Necromancer, I hope that some of the critters from Tome of Horrors will show up in Pathfinder.
This is so awesome!
You get to create a new world! AND it's all yours! Congratulations! (I'll stop with all the "!'s" now!)
Now, I'm only sad that I have to wait 4 whole months.
I propose Mona, Jacobs, Schneider, Sutter, Bulmahn, McArtor, and Walker as the gods of the new world. Choose your domains. ;)
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I like the idea of keeping Pathfinder fantasy specific. But, assuming it does well and you decide to have another series of books along the same vein as pathfinder but in other genre's . . . I'd like to suggest the name of Starblazer for the scifi equivalent.
Great. Now I have that theme song from my childhood stuck in my head.
Oh we're off to outerspace
to save the human race!
Our STARBLAZERS!
Yeah, I watched too much TV as a kid, and remember really really old anime TV shows.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Is there any chance of the installments for each Adventure path being collected into a single book like Shackled City?
Given that Pathfinder is a book (meant to stay in print and on your FLGS shelf), there's probably no need. At least not for a long while.
What's the # of issue conversion rate of switching to the Pathfinder subscription?
It's a complex calculation depending on several factors, not a simple "x gets you y" thing.
And if you initially convert your subscription to Pathfinder but after an issue or two you decide that you don't want it, can you convert the remaining part of your subscription to either other 2 options (store credit or refund)?
We'll find a way to fix you up if that happens.
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Creative Director
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I like the idea of keeping Pathfinder fantasy specific. But, assuming it does well and you decide to have another series of books along the same vein as pathfinder but in other genre's . . . I'd like to suggest the name of Starblazer for the scifi equivalent.
Great. Now I have that theme song from my childhood stuck in my head.
Oh we're off to outerspace
to save the human race!Our STARBLAZERS!
Yeah, I watched too much TV as a kid, and remember really really old anime TV shows.
How much damage does a wave-motion gun do, anyway?
I'm definitely looking forward to Pathfinder. Hopefully I can convince my FLGS to order it just for me. They usually bring stuff in when I want it because I'm the only published D&D person they know.
Be prepared for a deluge of material (monsters obviously) from me James. I'm not sure if this question has been asked already (these messageboards are crazy at the moment) but what's the chance of fans being able to add to the Pathfinder campaign world (in the form of gods, places, magic items, or whatever)?
Come to think of it, it's probably a question that will be answered soon enough, so I won't press anyone for info. I'll just get cracking on writing stuff when I can! ;-)
How much damage does a wave-motion gun do, anyway?
Hee hee.
Inquiring minds want to know!
A sister scifi setting Would be pretty cool.
im sorry if this is a repeat question or has been answered already, there are four pages of posts to go through and im basicly lazy... :-)
but im sort of confused by the monmth to month subscription rate, is it going to be $17 a month or am i reading this way wrong?
and just to voice my shock and awe about the whole end of dragon and dungeon, i really dont know a world where there is no such magazines. even when i was not actively playing, there was always a dragon or dungeon mag to help keep me going, be involved and kept my interest.
it truly is an end of an era.
i will give the new pathfinder a try and will have to wait and see what the price really is going to be.
Paizo,
I'm looking forward to Pathfinder and wish you guys the best of luck. Do us proud! :)
Best.
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I was quite upset by the news yesterday about the two magazines. However, you guys have done a spectacular job of managing this potentially devastating issue. After getting past some of the initial shock what I realized it isn't the publications that I care about, so much as the focus on quality and the passion that you guys have put behind them.
What I want to know is besides buying the products (which is a given) what other ways can we help you guys out? Can you give us a top ten list of things that would really help move the needle for you? What are the major challenges that you guys need to overcome in the next couple months and how can the fans help?
Hi, folks. I just wanted to chime in with some praise for the way you've handled this transition. You clearly had a plan and were prepared to enact it. You've been present and responsive-- ready with an answer and (most importantly) an option.
When I dashed over here half in a panic after reading that I'd be losing two magazines, it only took about 5 minutes to decide that Pathfinder was in essence more of what I want from Dragon and Dungeon, and less of what I don't. I'll happily pay more per month for it.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, WotC had nothing on offer and didn't even give out details of their plan! Sure, the transition is still several months away, but the *announcement* is right now. I'd say they dropped the ball, but it really looks more like they weren't even paying attention and took the ball in the grill. (In fact, I think their glasses might have been broken.)
Add in the fact that they have already been offering online D&D content for years, and it's never struck me as being particularly good, their vague assurances aren't cutting it.
On your end, you said very clearly, "we're taking the great work we've already been doing and making it go to eleven."
They should have hired you all as consultants. ;) I'm both shocked and somehow not shocked at all as to how clumsily they've handled this, but Paizo comes out smelling like a rose (and with more of my money in your pocket)!
Looking forward to giving you my hard earned cash each month -- you guys always deliver the goods.
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Check me out, guys. Pathfinder Charter Subscriber!!!!
I am excited by this new product line. I will always feel a hole from the loss of Dungeon and Dragon magazines, but I am with you Paizo. You now get every penny of my RPG moneys. WotC will never get another cent from me.
Charter Subscriber name Bling gives me more street cred, right?
FH
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I was really bummed that Dungeon and Dragon were ending - especially since I resubscribed to Dungeon just a few hours before the announcement came down!
But life goes on and I am really psyched about Pathfinder!
by the way, is there anything special I have to do to be a "charter subscriber" besides fill out my transition form?
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How much damage does a wave-motion gun do, anyway?
I like the idea of keeping Pathfinder fantasy specific. But, assuming it does well and you decide to have another series of books along the same vein as pathfinder but in other genre's . . . I'd like to suggest the name of Starblazer for the scifi equivalent.
Great. Now I have that theme song from my childhood stuck in my head.
Oh we're off to outerspace
to save the human race!Our STARBLAZERS!
Yeah, I watched too much TV as a kid, and remember really really old anime TV shows.
I would do a Starblazersish or Voltronish RPG.
FH
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Check me out, guys. Pathfinder Charter Subscriber!!!!
I am excited by this new product line. I will always feel a hole from the loss of Dungeon and Dragon magazines, but I am with you Paizo. You now get every penny of my RPG moneys. WotC will never get another cent from me.
Charter Subscriber name Bling gives me more street cred, right?FH
Coitinly!!!
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I was really bummed that Dungeon and Dragon were ending - especially since I resubscribed to Dungeon just a few hours before the announcement came down!
But life goes on and I am really psyched about Pathfinder!
by the way, is there anything special I have to do to be a "charter subscriber" besides fill out my transition form?
Go to your subscriptions and buy a month-to-month. I had credit for the first edition of Pathfinder (thanks for the generosity, Paizo, I didn't have near that much left on my current subscription) and when I converted over to Pathfinder I got Subscriber status. And a month and you get Charter Member.
FH
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by the way, is there anything special I have to do to be a "charter subscriber" besides fill out my transition form?
I think you mainly have to sign-up for the on-going subscription before the initial issue ships. Hopefully, Vic Wertz will chime in on this. He's fielded most of the questions regarding this type of stuff on other threads.
After reading a lot of the posts and the blogs, I decided to take the plung. I'm a new DM (I've been a PC for as long as I can remeber, 1st ed).
I a friend showed me the Savage Tide AP and just had to become a DM since I always wanted to run a Sea faring campaign. Now I'm hooked on Dungeon (been a Dragon subscriber for a while now) and its going away. :( At least I will be able to finish the campaign.
As a player I always enjoyed Dragon, but once I became a DM, Dungeon and Dragon became that much more useful.
I am hoping that Pathfinder continues that quality.
I transfered my subscription to Pathfinder, but I need to add the month to month to get all the release goodies. Is there info on how month-to-month works? Is it billed at shipping?
I for one curse WotC for this, Dragon and Dungeon are ICONS of the game and for them to remove them like this really sickens me. My hats off to the folks at Paizo who took two magazines that WotC didn't want and turned them into something that fans of 3E really enjoyed. Unlike most folks at WotC the folks at Paizo always have sounded like gamers, who cared about the game (past, present and future).
I have no love for 3E, I gave up on this a long time ago but the Pathfinder series had got my attention, and I plan on giving it a shot, 20 bucks sounds a bit steep when compared to a magazine price, but 20 bucks for a 96 page soft cover book, with very few ads sound like a pretty good deal.
Plus Paizo has done something that I wish all companies would take not of, the small players book is a huge thing for me. Having a seperate book with players info is a great idea. As a DM I hate trying to explain all the little details of a new campaign to my players, and allowing them access to the DMs notes and books is not good either, too much info.
Best of luck to everyone at Paizo, I hope Pathfinder takes the game world by storm.
Well, I for one am really jazzed about the new Pathfinder series.
WotC shot themselves in the foot. I'll be spending more money on Pathfinder than I did on Dragon/Dungeon, and they won't see a dime of that. Plus that leaves less money for me to buy WotC products. So in my case at least, they lost out. But that doesn't mean the majority will take a similar course of action. Only time will tell. But I must say, the quality of Dungeon adventures is vastly greater than those published by WotC. Couple that with superior customer interaction by Erik, James, and the rest of the gang, and you have a sure fire recipe for success.
The king is dead. Long live the king.
Is there info on how month-to-month works? Is it billed at shipping?
It's my understanding that you'll be billed at shipping, once a month. It should be around $17-20 a month.
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Creative Director
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I'm definitely looking forward to Pathfinder. Hopefully I can convince my FLGS to order it just for me. They usually bring stuff in when I want it because I'm the only published D&D person they know.
Be prepared for a deluge of material (monsters obviously) from me James. I'm not sure if this question has been asked already (these messageboards are crazy at the moment) but what's the chance of fans being able to add to the Pathfinder campaign world (in the form of gods, places, magic items, or whatever)?
Come to think of it, it's probably a question that will be answered soon enough, so I won't press anyone for info. I'll just get cracking on writing stuff when I can! ;-)
Hi Phil!
We're not quite ready to release submission guidelines for Pathfinder or the GameMastery line, but rest assured, we'll be having something up soon that talks about how people can freelance for us. It'll be less than what we were able to do with Dragon and Dungeon (simply because of the nature of the beast with these new products) but it's certainly not going away.
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CEO
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Hey there!
I would love to figure out a way to give brick and mortar store customers the PDF bonus too, but the logistics of it are something that escapes me at the moment. I will be sure to tap into the great retail store brains at GTS in Las Vegas next week and see if we can come up with a solution. Thanks for your interest!
-Lisa
That's a pretty powerful disincentive for customers to shop from me instead of you. For the same price from you they get two products.Speaking as a bookseller, is there any way that I can offer my customers the pdf version? If they want it do they have to buy it from you, or will there be a way for them to obtain it?We'll be selling individual PDFs for $13.95. I suppose we might contemplate making CD-ROM compilations available through retail in future, but even discussing that is a long way off.
Hi Phil!We're not quite ready to release submission guidelines for Pathfinder or the GameMastery line, but rest assured, we'll be having something up soon that talks about how people can freelance for us. It'll be less than what we were able to do with Dragon and Dungeon (simply because of the nature of the beast with these new products) but it's certainly not going away.
That's good to know. I haven't personally sent anything into the magazines in years, but I know that many of the current writers for Pathfinder got their start because of the freelance work. It would be a shame to see that go completely by the wayside.
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You can count me in the Pathfinder Camp and I'm absolutely planning to go for a subscription ASAP. Never thought I'd do that (I never did it with my beloved old Dungeon and Dragon Magazines). But given the circumstances it may well be the best thing I can do to show you my lasting support.
I'm quite happy to see the good Paizo folks continue their work in their own brand-new world and given the quality improvements in the last three years I'm really confident (convinced, in fact) that the Pathfinder Series will rock.
I'm quite happy as well to see the Pett-Logue Vendetta transfers from the old to the new world; not to forget Greg A. Vaughn and those other writers of great adventures and other quality material. I wish you all the best luck. Let your creativity flow free (not to say run wild ;) ).
Dungeon and Dragon Magazine will ever have a place in my heart. And since this is not least cause off what Paizo did with the Mags, I think they'll get company soon enough.
Wormy
Do it Celeste... er WormysQueue! Subscribe to the cause!
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Seems that the world is a hamlet nowadays :D.
In fact the only thing missing is a credit card so that's what I was subscribing for yesterday (after some hours of crying - now I know what the Day of Mourning feels like ;) ). Hope I don't have to wait long so I can get my hands on this nifty "Subscriber"- title.
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A few semi-random thoughts...
First up, I'm a little taken aback by the vehement anti-wotc rants that have popped up in a few places.
Although I certainly regret the loss of Dragon & Dungeon, it's not really much of a shock -- magazine publishing is a notoriously tricky business, and one in which it's very easy to lose money. It's always been a bit of a (pleasant) surprise that 2 magazines could be supported.
What do I particularly regret being lost?
When it comes down to it there are probably only three things...
1. There will now be no (semi-)official Greyhawk material produced (LG doesn’t count, but that's a rant for another time/place) unless WotC do one of two things that they seem reluctant to do.
2. In terms of price effectiveness, Dungeon magazine was tough to beat.
3. I like dead-tree-format.
However, none of this stands up too well when publishing & shipping magazines is slow & expensive, particularly compared to publishing online.
Gamers are, in general, a very computer-savvy bunch, and I suspect that a highly disproportionate number of Dragon readers are online regularly. So shifting to online publishing makes sense.
However this also touches on one of my immediate concerns for Pathfinder. In short, I'm not convinced the financial model works.
USD20/month is fairly pricey -- pricey enough for some people not to buy it because of the cost, or to postpone buying it until a later date.
From my (brief) reading of how Pathfinder's been described we're looking at:
- 1 issue a month
- a single AP adventure taking up 50%
- dragon-style supplementary articles taking up the rest
- 6 issues making up an AP
Am I going to fork out USD120 over 6 months for an adventure path?
Given that this is intended to be a book-style publication rather than a magazine, and issue 1 will remain in print for a while (and presumably kept in stock by everybody's FLGS -- or possibly not!) I'm more likely to wait until I've got a feel for the AP (e.g. from reading discussion boards) then pick them all up in one go later on.
Keeping many issues in print is going to be awkward; keeping them in stock is likely to be awkward/expensive for shops. PDFs of course are likely to be viable, but many people like dead tree format (plus it dispenses with the "nice quality paper" benefit). Plus it will be very easy for people to not-buy six issues in a row if they decide the AP isn't of interest (either through word of mouth, or having bought issue 1). It's probably just as well Pathfinder won't be relying on advertisers to fund it!
So we've got a publication that's only of most benefit once you've spent USD120 over 6 months on it, that needs to be bought/not-bought in blocks of 6, that likely won't be stocked comprehensively by most FLGS, but that is available in PDF, and that's aimed at audience that's highly computer literate.
Dragon & Dungeon magazines probably didn't suffer too much from illegal downloading from the Internet -- I suspect that Pathfinder won't be so fortunate, with piracy hitting both primary sales, back issue sales, and allowing would-be buyers to "preview" issues before buying the hardcopy.
I'm certain initial print sales (first 2 issues) will be very good, and depending on the pricing the PDFs will work well for picking up back issues (excellent! I don't have to go into my FLGS to pick up the latest Dungeon...), but I suspect that by about issue 3 or 4 the drop in hardcopy sales will be significant and that around the same point we'll start seeing torrents of the latest issues appearing online within a couple of days of publication.
I don't know what the right answer to the problem is -- Dragon/Dungeon type magazines are often very marginal financially, a Pathfinder type publication really shifts the price point and market, it's not immediately obvious that the Dragon-market maps readily on to the Pathfinder-market.
That said, good quality Adventure Paths seem to be the way to go -- they seem to have in general been even better received than the standard super-modules (RttToEE etc). But what about readers who, for some reason, don't like a particular AP (I loved AoW, but didn't take to SC or ST) -- is there enough in the rest of each issue to attract them. Many people don't go for APs at all -- they favour the short, one-issue adventures (or taking individual sections from an AP in an issue they bought for reasons other than the AP). At the other end there are those who love APs, who started with SC, then AoW, now ST -- but this takes a long time, and I suspect that few groups are able to keep up with one complete AP a year, let alone one every 6 months. Are some of your target audience already falling behind (RotRL! Great! We've nearly finished AoW, so once we've done ST we'll start on RotRL)?
Anyway, just random thoughts.
I'm not too shocked that Dragon & Dungeon are going, though it's a shame.
And I'm not in any sense anti-Pathfinder (I certainly wish everyone involved the best of luck with it and really hope it succeeds).
I'm just not certain that the market will support Pathfinder.
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You guys have done awesome. I was over at the OOTS site and read Rich Burlew's announcement, which then (after a few moments of stunned disbelief wherein I almost forgot to breath) led me back here to get the scoop. I went one day without checking the messageboards and the entire world turned upside down. But it didn't take me very long to see that there really wasn't that much to worry about. You folks here at Paizo, as always, have things well in hand. I honestly believe that there is not another publishing house out there that would have done such an incredible job of handling this transition.
Thanks
Tam
The more I think about Pathfinder the more excited I am for it now that the sadness over the end of Dragon and Dungeon mags has set in.
One question...if 50% is the adventure path, then only DMs will get to read all $20 worth of the mag each month.....won't this be a drawback to the bulk of potential subscribers?
Good job on the Pathfinder blog. It took me from "I'm not so sure." to "This looks really cool." over the course of 2 days. I'm definitely willing to give the first 6 issues a shot (especially since the first 3 are already paid for out of my leftover subscriptions).
Sure, US$20 is 'pricey' for a monthly subscription, especially when compared to Dungeon magazine. So do what our playing group does ... everyone pays an equal share towards the subscription price. In our case that means we only pay US$4 each a month.
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Chief Technical Officer
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One question...if 50% is the adventure path, then only DMs will get to read all $20 worth of the mag each month.....won't this be a drawback to the bulk of potential subscribers?
We know Pathfinder won't be for everyone who read Dragon and Dungeon, and have ensured that the line will succeed if we capture only a smallish percentage of current readers.
That said, we're looking into other things we can do to keep other segments of our audience entertained and informed.
