Chech this out every one. I'm in the navy and curentl deployed and my wife and I have been in the process of adopting a child for over a year now. I get and e-mail from my wife the other day saying that the reason that we've been waiting so long is that one of the social workers for the state has stated her opinion is that she is,"unsure about the wefare for our child", because we play dungeons and dragons. so now they are telling us that if we want to adopt him that we either have to quit and give up all my gameing gear (which I spent a lot of money on) or just send him to a licenced foster home while we play. Now am I over reacting when i am offended by their reaction? I mean I plan on just saying ok and play any way, but the ignorance of this woman is really mind boggling. I just can't help but wonder how many other would be mothers and fathers out there have been denied because of this GAME that we all love so much. Any feed back would be greatly apreciated.
If you can get hold of PulpCruciFiction he might be able to help.
See the D&D Club = Satan in School? thread. Pulp said, "EDIT: I wrote a paper on the misperceptions surrounding D&D for graduate school - if you'd like, I can point you in the direction of a few good psychological studies on the effects of RPGs, none of which show any kind of negative effect."
You you can't get him, or you need to do quick research, you should be able to do some internet searches for ammuinition, like articles that support the gaming view, psychological papers (like his) that show the positive effects of a gaming environment, etc.
I say "fight them", but I think this is an area where you're gonna do what you feel necessary without anyone elese's "advice."
Director of Narrative
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That pisses me off! I can't even articulate the hows and whys, because it seems some obvious.
If I were to have children I would adopt. It's ridiculous how difficult it is to adopt a child in this country. There are so many children that could benefit from being raised in a solid home. Gamers for the most part are a pretty solid and intelligent lot. Jack-ass social services people make me vomit.
dude if you could point me in that direction it would be greatly apreciated.
My wife and I are going though the same thing - international adoption - and I can't tell you how much it sucks to hear someone having this problem. Playing D&D was one of my big fears too. I've been playing since the 70's and I've heard all the negative crap about the game.
I wasn't sure how it should come out at our meeting with our social worker, but it just sorta did. I mentioned that D&D was one of my big hobbies in high school (that and music) and mentioned that I still play today. Nothing more than that. They ok'd it, and our file is now in China.
I don't really know what advice to give you other than try to educate the people there. But my personal opinion is that you shouldn't have to give up your game, and you shouldn't be forced to send your child away on game night.
So, I agree with the others. Fight. Fight as hard as you can. I've heard of people being denied for many reasons (medical condition of the parents being one) but in many cases, they fought and eventually convinced the social workers to approve them.
Good luck,
Greg
We are trying to adopt domestically and had trouble with this too. The social worker was baffled by the idea of 40-year-old professional people playing D&D. (She also had a lot of issues with our religion, but to my surprise, the gaming seemed to be an equally big issue.) It took 9 months (instead of the promised 90 days) to get our home-study approved, and a personal appearance at DSHS headquarters to talk to the senior staff there. But we were stubborn and noisy--letters to the social worker's superiors, to the state ombudsman, etc.--and we did get it approved.
My best advice is to find allies: people of impeccable reputation who know about D&D and can write letters of support for you. We had letters of support from a local minister and a child psychologist.
You can also consider going through a private adoption agency which deals with DSHS for domestic adoption. In my local area WACAP is one such agency. This will be expensive, but they are often much better placed to negotiate with DSHS than you are.
My experience of DSHS is that they are so afraid of making a mistake, they behave very erratically and not in anyone's best interest. It's a sad situation, but there's not much individuals can do about it other than negotiate the system as best we can.
Good luck!
If you want to write me about this privately my email is mkkuhner@eskimo.com.
Mary
WTF? That's just...I mean, really? *shakes head* Un-freakin-believable.
*reads her scroll of summon theacemu*
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Yeah, there have been numerous studies done on the potential psychological effects of roleplaying games, and several criminal defendants have attempted to use RPG addiction as a kind of insanity defense to their crimes. Naturally, none of the psychologists have found any negative effects, and none of the legal arguments held any water. theacemu has listed quite a few resources that you could cite, but here are the ones I went over in that paper I mentioned.
1. James L. Carroll and Paul M. Carolin. Relationship Between Game Playing and Personality. Psychological Reports, v. 64 (1989), pp. 705-06.
2. Lisa A. DeRenard and Linda Mannik Kline. Alienation and the Game Dungeons and Dragons. Psychological Reports, v. 66 (1990), pp. 1219-1222.
3. Armando Simon. Emotional Stability Pertaining to the Game Vampire: The Masquerade. Psychological Reports, v. 83 (1998), pp. 732-34.
These findings were corroborated by my personal correspondence with a former director of adolescent medicine at Albert Einstein College of Medicine named Dr. Kenneth Schonberg, who found the game inherently harmless.
Michael Stackpole (the sci-fi writer) also wrote a pretty good defense of RPGs, available at http://www.rpg.net/sites/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html.
If I were you, I'd also be prepared to attempt to go above this social worker's head if necessary, as suggested by another poster in this thread. Most of the people I've come into contact with who began with anti-RPG mindsets were not open to reason.
Hopefully some of this information can help!
The insolence of office!
I am mortified!
But personally, the last thing I have had time to do since I became a dad is game.
mary-
we origonally were going through DSHS, dut they were sitting around with their thumbe up their butts. so, we decided to go through a privet agency and we've gotten a lot further along. untill the social worker from DSHS decided she still needed to be involved. she preceded to tell the higher ups at the privete agency her concerns about us and our gameing. our home study was compleat and the licence was about o be mailed untill miss "i want to impose my beliefs on others" put in her two cents.
stragely enough the fact that my wife and i are wiccan has never been an issue.
and to my wife who is undoubtably going to read this back home...see baby i CAN hod a compleate conversation while angery with out dropping the f-bomb even ounce. arn't you proud?
and to my wife who is undoubtably going to read this back home...see baby i CAN hod a compleate conversation while angery with out dropping the f-bomb even ounce. arn't you proud?
And well done to you on that sir! Profanity is the most vile and depraved abuse of the language possible, for it in truth has no value other than the shocking disruption of perfectly comprehensible communication. In short: F**k that S**t!
I'm very sorry to hear about the social worker's idiocy. It's that kind of closed mind that many of us constantly fight against. I might also suggest that, if the social worker's immidiate supervisor is as intractable, a letter to your congressperson, citing the sources provided already in this thread would certainly be in order. In fact, I rather suspect that you should probably take that action no matter what.
I hope the problem is resolved for you with as little hardship as possible, from here on out.
i really need to work on my spelling.
Let's see. You are wiccans and they don't object (freedom of religion?).
You play D&D and the kid should be sent to a foster home while you game.
Maybe shes a wiccan loather but doesn't want a FoR lawsuit.... so she justs snags you on the D&D.
Whatever, that boggles my mind... your whole situation boggles my mind, dude. That in this day and age someone thinks playing RPGs is harmful to kids just doesn't make sense. Next thing its gonna be abuse to take your kid to a hockey game.
Good luck
Strangely enough the fact that my wife and I are Wiccan has never been an issue.
Probably because the social worker knew that bringing up religion will open up a Kyuss-sized can of works, no matter which way the worker would try to spin it. However, a fun social hobby that teaches creative thinking and encourages a multitude of intellectual pursuits is apparently not an appropriate environment in which to raise a child.
*sigh*
don't think the religon thing didn't cross my mind. but it was funny seeing her look of confusion when trying to handle the cabnet full of herbs, candles, incense, and the pentacal hanging around my wife's neck...pricless.
let me just say that the privet agency has been more than awesome with us. there were no problems untill the chick from dshs piped in. then because of the fact that she is who she is they had to pull back a bit and make sure that the child had a safe home. so there's no anger toward the privet agency.
and thank you all for your input and opinions. you've all been really suportive. my wife and i apreciate it very much. thank you all.
You might also want to add Tracy Hickman's Ethics in Fantasy essay series which "<deals> with role playing games and the Christian perspective."
We are Wiccan also. I think there's a real possibility in both cases that the social worker's issues with religion (to which she legally cannot object) are being displaced onto gaming. But my impression with ours was that gaming was genuinely an issue for her as well. We had to explain it again, every home visit for nine months; it never stuck!
Mary
This enrages me. I happen to have been adopted (thank god- I've met my birthmother, and giving me up was the best thing she ever did); I am a huge supporter of those seeking to adopt. It isn't done enough in this country.
I'm somewhat confused, however- are you still suffering the risk of not completing the adoption because of this twit, or have you moved to another agency and are likely to be approved despite her ignorance? My further posting will operate under the idea of the former (and may even be applicable under the later condition, depending on the specifics of the situation).
This smacks of illegality to my totally unqualified opinion. I would say fight it, in whatever way and however vehemently you can. If you even take a posture to sue over a civil rights or some such issue, they'll probably back down. Go over this lady's head, if possible, and raise as much hell as you can with her superiors. Do not go quietly, and do not let them forget about you, ignore you, push you around, or intimidate you at all. Remain civil, or you'll shoot yourself in the foot, but fight!
Best of luck to you.
Yes, well. Gamers do eat children after all.
Calling Jebediah Utecht and his skills at screenwriting. Jebadiah Utecht, come in... I'll need a second writer on this.
You know we all need to turn this around? A mainstream romantic comedy that involves a man brought to a lady DM's gaming table and they eventually fall in love, despite his shyness and her home territory aggression. Julia Roberts and Hugh Grant together again type fare.
Show the man, say, a lawyer, being razzed by peers at work for being a gamer. (Cheese factor: later we'll see him use something he picked up in the game to his advantage in a case.)
She's got something against him because he once dated a friend of hers and who said he did something lousy to her (little do we realize this is a lie). This causes her to give him a hard time at the table which leads to the friction that makes this a romantic comedy... just how will these two, almost destined to stay apart, come together?
Rolling crits, laughing, generally confusing the game-ignorant audience with their tactical jibberish speak while otherwise being normal, sweet, complicated people. He's a bit shy in mixed company and she's a bit aggressive. Ever the bully she flirts with him just because it seems to make him blush. With a leering smile she passes him notes during the game that make him shift in his seat.
Let one or both of them be church/temple going. That'll be some subtley effective propaganda to resist the notion that D&Ders are all dripping hot red wax on their nipples amidst group chanting.
Perhaps only when these two hit if off will those behind desks who have the power to dispense small justices and injustices based on their own private interpretations of reality will think back to Hugh rolling a 20, the cheering, and that first unexpected kiss that immediately follows thereafter. See? Slaughtering monsters can be romantic. Take a foo creature and give it an ooze creature template or some such and have him observe, "Wouldn't that be a foo goo?"
Aw, could we love him any more? If that isn't a D&D is for Lovers bumper sticker waiting to happen, I don't know what is.
We are Wiccan also. I think there's a real possibility in both cases that the social worker's issues with religion (to which she legally cannot object) are being displaced onto gaming. But my impression with ours was that gaming was genuinely an issue for her as well. We had to explain it again, every home visit for nine months; it never stuck!
Mary
I would have to question whether a hobby that can be purchased legally anywhere in the United States could be used as a reason to deny someone from adopting. That's completely insane...I mean, that sounds like something you could get someone fired over.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If things get rough, you could always bring suit. This is fairly easy to package as religious discrimination, which, so far, the state is still prohibited from doing. Maybe make noises to that effect ("This isn't about D&D, this is about our religious beliefs, we're going to have to investigate our legal options.") to her superior.
I'd be hesitant to join a gaming group at this juncture; I'd always be missing and be the guy who "watches the horses."
Off-topic but I'm seeing a Horse Watcher NPC class here.
At level three they gain Yawn 2/day
I'm deployed too, and I know what a pain in the ass it can be to deal with things back in the states. But this is something else entirely.
Have you thought about going to JAG for this?
D&D players shouldn't adopt children. In fact we shouldn't let that type of people breed. I know a lot of D&D players and they are some strange folks indeed. The speak in tongues, "A.C., D20, hitpoints, range increment, feats, D.n.D, N.P.C." Do we want good green blooded American children running arround believing they can slay dragons and cast spells. "Maze & Monsters" my friend, a prophetic movie staring none other than movie star super heavy weight Tom Hanks. If you havn't seen this movie I suggest you do.
Besides a D&D player would only adopt children and turn them into thralls of Demogorgon. Come on all you D&D players are Demon worshipers. I've seen the magazines, they print images and spells to summon these creatures and descriptions of such foul beings.
D&D will devour your soul, don't let our children near this cult waste of time activity.
Seriously you need to get a lawyer.
The real problem here is that you like to think. You utilize reading, math skills, and imagination. You might raise a child who isn't a television addicted sheep, and that's a serious issue.
Honestly, I'm amazed that you are still willing to defend this country considering how badly you are being treated; I give you a lot of credit. It angers me to no end that it is easier to get a child from overseas than it is to adopt children already living here.
The best defense: Make noise, lots of noise. Contact papers, radio stations, tv news crews, your congress(wo)man, your neighbors, anyone who will listen. It will crack open your life to scrutiny, but at least you've got the "in the service" aspect working in your favor. "Local Hero denied adoption" looks great on the front page of a slow news day!
The best defense: Make noise, lots of noise. Contact papers, radio stations, tv news crews, your congress(wo)man, your neighbors, anyone who will listen. It will crack open your life to scrutiny, but at least you've got the "in the service" aspect working in your favor. "Local Hero denied adoption" looks great on the front page of a slow news day!
Absolutely the way to go if you want your way.
Local hero denied adoption. Brilliant. Gamers need to get as loud about intolerance as Hispanics did over Seinfeld, as blacks did over Michael Richards and Imus.
They're not merely saying something disparaging about gamers, they are denying an adoption. That is serious discrimination not backed by reputable studies and it needs to be called out as loudly and publically as possible. What state are we talking about here? I'll march over this if I can drive there--tie my hair back and wear a suit even. ;)
Speak to a manger first on this. Try to get around Miss in-yer-bizness first. THen if the manager is as uncooperative as the agent, drop the hint that the local news will help if they don't. Then also mention a lawyer.
I'd also ask Miss Busybody what the objection to roleplaying is. And get specific details as to why this is even an issue, preferably in writing.
It's sad and unfortunate, but I agree you will have to make as large a noise as possible.
This makes me so angry! The idiocy of some people is trluy mind-boggling.
I would suggest becoming very vocal about this. Write editorials, send letters to her superiors and things like that.
Wow...that's probably one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard. I don't even think this is a problem in any way, the people I know that play Dungeons and Dragons are a lot more thoughtful and are just as popular as other people I know in my High School...Dungeons and Dragons can actually improve your ability to think, why take it as a negative to parenting. Maybe they might think that you would neglect your children, but I doubt that because my best friend has parents who play Dungeons and Dragons yet they neglect him in no way, infact they are very polite, nice, respectful, and helpful. I believe Dungeons and Dragons is actually a positive and should help the process of adopting...
I wish the best of luck to you!
Sir Smashes Alot...bewildered by this problem
...unsure about the wefare for our child", because we play dungeons and dragons.
This makes absolutely no sense to me because D&D is the only reason my friends and I don't stand on street corners smoking pot like every other looser in this town. The same probably goes for my parents when they were my age.
Um Dirk there isnt anything to do in your town but game or smoke pot. and you spelled loser incorrectly.
Does your friggin social worker have any idea how many of us gamers play and have children; so what makes you in her mind so much worse than us; you might ask for another counciler if she is the type who would want to take away our kids because we game; seems that you have guaranteed in the constitition freedom of expression and she is certainly inhibiting yours.
hehe look a grammar censor on this thread; hehe; some peeps just dont know what a can of worms a statement like "you miss spelled x is" hehe
If you wanna protest; I will do what I can to help; about the adoption thing that is...
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Chief Technical Officer
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Contact the Game Manufacturer's Association's Industry Watch Committee (Mike Stackpole, chairman) at iwc@gama.org. For more information about the IWC, see http://www.gama.org/committees/industry_watch
If Mike can't help you, he should be able to direct you to someone who can.
I second this. Mike Stackpole is the best place to start. He is our industry's best defender, and has successfully fought anti-gamer actions in the media and in the courts for well over a decade.
I totally agree with the sentiments here, but my own wife raises a good point: what books are on your shelf that the social worker has seen? If its just the PHB, DMG, MM, then no bigs, she's being a weasel.
But if you have Fiendish Codex, maybe the AEG Evil book, or the Book of Vile Darkness, I can understand her hesitation. The BOVD specifically has text and even artwork that any reasonable social worker would not find appropriate unless it were in a locked cabinet, just like pornography, guns, or presciption drugs. My wife and I game, and we use these books, but they are certainly going into the lockbox when we have tykes of our own. Any child that sees Mom and Dad going to the bookshelf with happy and excited faces, and intently reading the books on it, will want to look at the books that Mom and Dad like so much.
So, has miss DSHS seen your bookshelf, and what did she see on it or could have seen? That might change the paradigm, but it might give you an out to explain to the agency and illustrate that you're willing to meet them halfway.
HTH! (Hope That Helps)
My wife and I recently went through this process to adopt and had no issues on this front what-so-ever. We did have issues in other, unrelated areas, but that is a long and different story. Additionally my wife is a worker for CPS and previously a case manager for a private agency, so we are pretty darn familiar with the process. When I read her your story her first reaction was, "You'll need to get a lawyer." Unfortunately I think this might actually be the case.
There is little to no justification for this type of reaction from a public agency and if they are put under any sort of pressure on this they will back down from this issue quickly (and then likely drag every other little thing out that they can in order to 'get you back' for your impudence).
My personal guess is that this is very much an issue with your religion but since it is tacitly illegal for them to say as much they choose to direct to something else as similar as they can.
Have you actually already had the child placed with you already or you just going through the licensing process still (foster first then adoption)?
Sean Mahoney
I'm with the 'Make Noise About This' group... This is scandalous!! Send a letter to Oprah.
Ultradan
yeah, Oprah; there is the ticket; her or Montel might be able to help; the government really hates publicity.
I am stunned by this.
I'm equally stunned. Some people are unbelievable.
I'm not sure about Oprah. Do we know her take on role-playing games?
As everyone has already stated: this is a crock full of poo.
It enrages me that you got stuck with that person, who, based on knowing your religion, assumed that D&D is just an extension for a heathen (assuming strong religious beliefs of said person). The best advice I see on all the other threads:
Email Michael Stackpole, call a Lawyer, and do some reading of the studies recommended (I'd bet that this person doesn't think you'll go that far).
As to the various sourcebooks & kids around gaming:
I played D&D Miniatures around my oldest son when he was about 9 months old, and he still likes minis like that. I played regular D&D while he and my friend's daughter were playing together in my living room. He even looks at the pictures while I'm making adventures or looking stuff up, and he loves when I pull out the dragons (especially the garg. blue). My younger son (just turned one) has not had that same experience, but he loves books, and has seen some of the pictures in them and points and goes "that."
Did it corrupt my kids? Nope. Do I make sure they don't see my copy of the Book of Vile Darkness? Yep, I just tell my oldest that he can't read that book, and he doesn't do it (he's good like that).
What scares me is that a good number of people are turning back to hating the game, many (but NOT all of them) are following a conservative gait. Some are over-the-top Christians, some are Atheists, some are Gay, and some are even Wiccans. Each group has a different reasons, although two groups are trying to redeem one's immortal soul, while others are arguing psychological points. Are they wrong to judge? That depends on our reaction entirely.
I'd rant more, but I gotta meet my son at the doctor's office.
/d