I've long been known for my snobbery against prewritten adventures. I never run modules and don't run module style games. The idea of a dungeon is something somewhere between a joke and roadkill. You laugh at it--but you don't touch it.
Why do I dislike adventures so much? I used to hate them because they felt really fake--a bunch of orcs and ropers sitting in some underground maze for no other reason than to provide XP and loot to adventurers. I've read enough Dungeon magazines to have changed my mind for good on this one. The writers are amazing and the stories they come up with are great.
Nowadays it's a bit more nuanced than that. I love the stories, but I hate their amorphous structure. They don't feel like events that are really going on in a solid place that you can interact with. People run through them like playing a video game. Everyone has killed or been killed by Kyuss now at least once. He's like a themepark. What really happened? What's the real history? That's fuzzy. You can never really know...and that bugs me.
It would be awesome to have a little article here and there about the NPC's who officially do some of this great stuff. That probably sounds weird, but here's the thing. I would love to play games -around- adventures rather than -through- them. It's like the Star Wars RPG. Your characters aren't redeeming Vader and destroying the Death Star. Luke and his friends are doing that, that's their story. You play Star Wars -around- the story of Luke and Han and Leia. I'd like to have a way to use Dungeon like Star Wars--events going on that effect the lives of my players.
I'd also like "adventures" that are more like set peices--like the awesome stuff for Cauldron and Sesserine(?). There's hooks and interesting politics, but it's not disposable and there's no one ending for it. It's just a backdrop for interesting adventures. I love that and can wring months of use out of something like that. If I could get more of that in Dungeon I would buy every issue. The guys who make Dungeon know how to do it...I'd just like to see things like that, things I can really get some use out of, in more issues.
It would even be nice to have some small articles on major badguys, less like the level 8 Minotaur Frenzied Berzerker on the third floor of the tower--but like lower power scale Sass Tamms. Not meant to be taken out right away, but to be doing things in the game, spinning plots, manipulating politics, sponsoring organizations, sending their minions to carry out hidden agendas. Something I can toy with for a while. I saw a listing once for an ice cave, another one with the modern floorplan for a house. Something that length detailing an official signature mid-level villain would be a joy to own.
That would hook me.
That reminds me of DragonLance. You could either play AS the Heroes of the Lance, and basically recreate the books, or else you could use the story told in the novels as backdrop info, and create your own material.
I've long been known for my snobbery against prewritten adventures. I never run modules and don't run module style games. The idea of a dungeon is something somewhere between a joke and roadkill. You laugh at it--but you don't touch it.
Why do I dislike adventures so much? I used to hate them because they felt really fake--a bunch of orcs and ropers sitting in some underground maze for no other reason than to provide XP and loot to adventurers. I've read enough Dungeon magazines to have changed my mind for good on this one. The writers are amazing and the stories they come up with are great.
Nowadays it's a bit more nuanced than that. I love the stories, but I hate their amorphous structure. They don't feel like events that are really going on in a solid place that you can interact with. People run through them like playing a video game. Everyone has killed or been killed by Kyuss now at least once. He's like a themepark. What really happened? What's the real history? That's fuzzy. You can never really know...and that bugs me.
It would be awesome to have a little article here and there about the NPC's who officially do some of this great stuff. That probably sounds weird, but here's the thing. I would love to play games -around- adventures rather than -through- them. It's like the Star Wars RPG. Your characters aren't redeeming Vader and destroying the Death Star. Luke and his friends are doing that, that's their story. You play Star Wars -around- the story of Luke and Han and Leia. I'd like to have a way to use Dungeon like Star Wars--events going on that effect the lives of my players.
I'd also like "adventures" that are more like set peices--like the awesome stuff for Cauldron and Sesserine(?). There's hooks and interesting politics, but it's not disposable and there's no one ending for it. It's just a backdrop for interesting adventures. I love that and can wring months of use out of something like that. If I could get more of that in Dungeon I would buy every issue. The guys who make Dungeon know...
Ah, you sound like an old skool second edition World of Darkness fan (and even if you aren't it sounds like you should be). I know sorta know what you're looking for, a little more this is the character her motives, goals, resources and position in the mix and how she generally reacts to a given situation, rather than here is our character waiting in room 3-A with 12 orcs and a flock of stirges. They are all standing on these squares and have these effects running and on the first round of combat they....
I really try not to write like that if I can help it (Check out issue's 147's installment of "Seeds of Sehan"). I love moving "dungeons" even though a lot of time the format of the game doesn't always allow for it easily. The characters need rest between challenges and stasis is an easy way to accomidate that as are running shorter "dungeons" like the Savage Tide does.
The idea of being "one of the guys" rather than the "big hero" has a lot of appeal too. Playing a game where you and thousands of other characters are storming the beaches of Normandy while Golden Age superheroes battle the Nazi War Robots is a cool way to show that even the most normal person in the world is capable of the extraordinary given the right circumstances. It's a great theme and informs a lot of my own games. But then I steal from everywhere. ;)
-GGG
|
I sort of see where the Cleaver (is that the official term?) is coming from. But I would say that they key is making the setting your own.
I DM Eberron at the moment, and what I am doing is not exactly what is written in the Sourcebook, though not a million miles away either. But my guys are making a difference (the usual defeating the rise of the demigod stuff, but I never claimed to be original) and their characters will be a big deal in the broader setting given their levels (about 14 right now, which is much higher than most other notable NPCs in Eberron) and deeds.
When this campaign comes to an end (which it will in the next few months) the current PCs will become NPCs, but will still be around as patrons, high-level opponents, movers-and-shakers and so on in the next campaign, which I also intend to set in Eberron. This will provide continuity in the setting, and hopefully, give the players a warm glow when they see their former characters as big cheeses in the setting while their current ones scurry about in their shadows.
I've written mostly my own, as most campaigns I've run have been on the small end in terms of number of players (like, two) and interested in a lot of skulduggery and Appraisal checks to go with their combat.
When I see movies, I go based on who the director and/or stars are, and I pick novels based on the author, not the subject. It's often the same for adventures. If I see James Jacobs as a (or preferrably the) primary author, I grab it. Bruce Cordell has done some amazing work. Lawrence Schick... now what ever happened to that guy? More recently, Schneider and Sutter make a first-rate team, and Rich Pett and Nick Logue are usually a safe bet (and I'm STILL waiting for a collaboration there! "Troop of actors is mislead by a dashing master criminal into a seedy city full of creepy bad guys...").
That reminds me of DragonLance. You could either play AS the Heroes of the Lance, and basically recreate the books, or else you could use the story told in the novels as backdrop info, and create your own material.
I know next to nothing about Dragonlance really. I bought the first graphic novel though and am liking it so far. The idea you're talking about is exactly what I'm talking about though. It would be cool if more adventures could be written around characters and constitute actual unfolding events, which players could make characters and run through. That way they're taking part in events that are shaping history, and I can walk my players through the events transpiring in the wake. I'd like to see some new Paizo proprietary Tanis and Raistlyn style characters anyway. Who knows--it might even end up someday being a book or a graphic novel.
*idea bing*
Hey the Paizo guys have their own army of comic guys right?
Ah, you sound like an old skool second edition World of Darkness fan (and even if you aren't it sounds like you should be). I know sorta know what you're looking for, a little more this is the character her motives, goals, resources and position in the mix and how she generally reacts to a given situation, rather than here is our character waiting in room 3-A with 12 orcs and a flock of stirges. They are all standing on these squares and have these effects running and on the first round of combat they....I really try not to write like that if I can help it (Check out issue's 147's installment of "Seeds of Sehan"). I love moving "dungeons" even though a lot of time the format of the game doesn't always allow for it easily. The characters need rest between challenges and stasis is an easy way to accomidate that as are running shorter "dungeons" like the Savage Tide does.
The idea of being "one of the guys" rather than the "big hero" has a lot of appeal too. Playing a game where you and thousands of other characters are storming the beaches of Normandy while Golden Age superheroes battle the Nazi War Robots is a cool way to show that even the most normal person in the world is capable of the extraordinary given the right circumstances. It's a great theme and informs a lot of my own games. But then I steal from everywhere. ;)
-GGG
I think you've got me pegged. Yeah, I followed the World of Darkness to the bitter end and loved every minute of it. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind doing great epic heroic things and taking on the giant nazi robots myself--but not so much when fifty other people are like "...oh yeah, those guys. Yeah we took them out too." I like to spin epic adventures of my own.
The thing is, I love story arcs like the Savage Tide, Shackled City, Age of Worms, and a bunch of the single adventures (one with a two headed faerunian fire slaad, and another one with characters braving an unholy lich in a sealed temple of evil to restore and artifact called the Light of Pelor to fight off an evil dragon are two that come quickly to mind). I would love these events to persist, for the settings to be the kinds of places I could stick around for a while, for the NPCs or even the enemies to become good friends of the characters.
It doesn't seem like it would take too much to make things more that way. Just have things be a tad more open ended, have a few articles about characters, villains or locations that persist for a while. That's all I'd need.
Good case in point is Kyuss. I've always been fascinated by him, but there was no info on him to be had. He was a footnote. Suddenly he rises to power and I'm pumped, but in a matter of months he's been totally destroyed, gone forever. What's with that?? Granted if you are one of the few characters in the setting who plan your whole life around pursuing the AP that ends with killing him then you get to tell the same glory story as every other character who's done exactly the same thing...and I guess that's okay if you're into that. I'd guess I'd just like there to be some of the other stuff too.
@original poster
hohum, guess you haven't had a look at dungeon since issue 37 or something like that?
Adventures did look like that once upon a time, orcs and stigres in a room for no particular reason, but since then us other consumers.. along with yourself have evolved and demand a bit more story and motivation.
And guess what, it HAS been delivered!
I think that on average each magazine has atleast one 1 really great adventures that you wish you could add in somewhere... or at the very least some details, like a organization.. a scheme or just a memorable npc. So letsee the last few dungeons? -Diplomacy and Tides of Dread are both true masterpieces. #142 the one before guaranteely has something for everyone, the 3 adventures vary so much in style..
Never to forget the enigmatic Maure clan either.. youll wish you ahd found that earlier ;)
Trust me there are TONS of beautiful stories to be read, even gamed ...lol, but oh yes, there definitely has been change since the old modules of white plume mountain or giants series which didn't offer much story at all.
Oops... sometimes I forget how OLD I'm getting...
Back in the 80's, when DragonLance first came out, the first 2 modules were really cool because they were much more "story based" and the art was amazing, and the maps were done in an awesome 3D isomorphic perspective. It's been imitated a lot sense then, but at the time it was pretty cutting edge stuff. As an added bonus, there was a line of novels released at the same time which tied-in directly to the modules. The only problem was that after having read the novels, it was hard to play the modules and do anything other than what you knew was "supposed" to be done. The first 2 suffered from this the most. After that, they got smarter, and the modules focused on events that happened inbetween the books. In fact, I think they deliberately left gaps in the novels so there would be good place-holders in which to insert material for adventures. In this respect, the novels and modules complimented each other very well, because you could do both without one spoiling the other. In the end, most of the latter modules in the series (16 in all) were not written by the original authors, and the quality suffered somewhat. I would love to take the Red Hand of Doom adventure, and mix in some of the better classic DragonLance adventures (updated to 3.5 rules) and run a totally new "DragonLance" campaign set in an alternate universe Greyhawk... sigh...
I think you've got me pegged. Yeah, I followed the World of Darkness to the bitter end and loved every minute of it. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind doing great epic heroic things and taking on the giant nazi robots myself--but not so much when fifty other people are like "...oh yeah, those guys. Yeah we took them out too." I like to spin epic adventures of my own.
This one is tough to work around in the context of the D&D game, especially in a magazine format where space is tight. Outside of the game, if an adventure is popular enough and everyone plays it you are going to run into a lot of folks have gone through the same battles with the same villains. There isn't anything wrong with that, though if all the stories sound really similar I suppose that would be a clue as to how linear (and perhaps limiting) the format is.
One way I can think of to avoid this is to create something roughly akin to a Vampire "by Night" book. Basically you have a bunch of characters all interconnected in different ways each with their own goals, motives, quirks and drives that play off one another. You then introduce the player characters to this subplot minefield as is it were and let the fun happen naturally, weaving modules into the mix as seamless as possible. At least that's how many of my "World of Darkness" games played out. Like I said that's tough in a magazine and especially in D&D where they really only give you hints and tastes of this sort of gaming in adventures like "Foundation's Flame," and "Prince of Redhand".
The thing is, I love story arcs like the Savage Tide, Shackled City, Age of Worms, and a bunch of the single adventures (one with a two headed faerunian fire slaad, and another one with characters braving an unholy lich in a sealed temple of evil to restore and artifact called the Light of Pelor to fight off an evil dragon are two that come quickly to mind). I would love these events to persist, for the settings to be the kinds of places I could stick around for a while, for the NPCs or even the enemies to become good friends of the characters.
It doesn't seem like it would take too much to make things more that way. Just have things be a tad more open ended, have a few articles about characters, villains or locations that persist for a while. That's all I'd need.
That really falls to the DM in D&D. Modules rarely have returning cast members, basically you almost always kill the villain, and when people do return those adventures are often celebrated as classics (Note to self: Lady Ashinana Vestang must make a reappearance in a future query). ;) Even the Adventure Paths tend to have NPCs drop off the map for episodes at a time sometimes without ever getting a second look. My games tend to collect characters over the course of their run. I bring in old characters for fun and to create a sense of continuity within the game (A couple of months ago my PCs and Duke Chupo from "Devil Box" attended Prince Zeech's party in "Prince of Redhand").
Not to pimp or anything... Ah okay, it's a pimp - the forthcoming "Seeds of Sehan" has a decent example of what you are looking for. Each chapter has it's own antagonist (who are all tangentially related) with one meta-villain for the whole thing. Infact you could probably (with some scaling changes) play the adventures in any order you care to and not have the players notice the difference. It's almost like an anthology in that respect. At the same time though that one meta-villain provides continuity thoughout the whole thing and if the DM chooses, well beyond -just like Duke Chupo.
Good case in point is Kyuss. I've always been fascinated by him, but there was no info on him to be had. He was a footnote. Suddenly he rises to power and I'm pumped, but in a matter of months he's been totally destroyed, gone forever. What's with that??
Yeah, I tried to submit an ecology article to Dragon for the "surprise" villains in part three of the Sehan arc, but alas that mean old Jason fella nixed it apparently he was scarred for life by the blighters in question and now harbors an unreasoning hateful bigotry toward the race as a whole. I'm hoping their sudden reappearance triggers just the psychological break needed for Mike and Wes to seize control and squeeze the article in sometime later down the road, otherwise they will show up and do their thing without much in the way of set up. Leaving the reader to read between the lines.
....I'd guess I'd just like there to be some of the other stuff too.
Wait for it... wait for it.... Whoosh! Was that a winged dire war rhino I heard swooping overhead. I got something down the pipe which expands on many of the topics above though it might be a tad edgy for some peoples' tastes (assuming it even sees print). I'm also hip-deep in the collaborative query process, working on a campaign-ending set of adventures that stretch some boundries -I hope.
-Matt
The thing is, I love story arcs like the Savage Tide, Shackled City, Age of Worms, and a bunch of the single adventures (one with a two headed faerunian fire slaad, and another one with characters braving an unholy lich in a sealed temple of evil to restore and artifact called the Light of Pelor to fight off an evil dragon are two that come quickly to mind). I would love these events to persist, for the settings to be the kinds of places I could stick around for a while, for the NPCs or even the enemies to become good friends of the characters.
I'm not 100% certain that I'm following you. I mean the places where these things took place do persist. But I guess their main plot points, as presented in Dungeon, are resolved. It sounds as if your not really interested in adventures but setting books. Preferably focused ones with lots of interesting things going on. As it stands something like that might work for a Campaign Workbook Article but, without some kind of theme running through it, I don't think it could get accepted as an actual adventure. If it was accepted then I suspect that much of the peripheral material not particularity of interest to the story would be chopped by the editorial staff. Personally I'd not mind seeing the occasional 'adventure' like this, I think the town of Saltmarsh in the DMG, kind of fits the bill. However I would not want this sort of thing to overrun the magazine. I'd rather read stories then read a travel guide - even one chock full of insider tips about people, places and things. That said I'm also willing to see the magazine move slightly more into a DM's resource product. So I'm certainly open to expanded Campaign Workbook type articles - even if that means that such an article would replace one of the adventures in my favourite periodical. Not sure that others would be so happy with this change however.
It doesn't seem like it would take too much to make things more that way. Just have things be a tad more open ended, have a few articles about characters, villains or locations that persist for a while. That's all I'd need.
What you say is pretty anathema to the editorial staff I think. I mean its either important to the immediate plot or its sacrificed on the Holy Altar of the Word Count. I mean even if you have managed to stay well within your word count for the adventure what are the chances that both the other two adventures are well within their word count? Especially if G-Cube has something in the same issue.
Good case in point is Kyuss. I've always been fascinated by him, but there was no info on him to be had. He was a footnote. Suddenly he rises to power and I'm pumped, but in a matter of months he's been totally destroyed, gone forever. What's with that?? Granted if you are one of the few characters in the setting who plan your whole life around pursuing the AP that ends with killing him then you get to tell the same glory story as every other character who's done exactly the same thing...and I guess that's okay if you're into that. I'd guess I'd just like there to be some of the other stuff too.
Interesting. I'd think that there is really nothing wrong with being able to tell the same glory stories as everyone else. I mean it sounds lame when you put it like that but lets consider the alternative - You don't get to tell glory stories at all. Ultimately that's more or less what it comes down to. In some cases you have a shared experience as a player with other segments of the D&D community in which you can tell stories about your characters with other players that have been there and done that - and can therefore relate, or alternatively you tell glory stories completely unconnected with any experience of other players, in which case, unless your a good writer or your adventure is pretty funny or something most other players don't really care. There is a lot to be said for shared Glory Stories really.
As a side note I have found that even the standard adventures that I usually run in my campaign often leave behind fixed features that become part of the world itself. Aubrey touches on this above. So, for example, my players burned down The Spottle Parlour from Dungeon Issue #12 sometime around 1990. The burned out ruins of the place have made at least a cameo in almost every campaign since. Its not like this is the only such feature either. Any place the characters have been can feature in a future adventure. Dawn of a New Age really highlighted this with the whole bit with the Sphere of Annihilation.
I'm not 100% certain that I'm following you. I mean the places where these things took place do persist. But I guess their main plot points, as presented in Dungeon, are resolved. It sounds as if your not really interested in adventures but setting books. Preferably focused ones with lots of interesting things going on. As it stands something like that might work for a Campaign Workbook Article but, without some kind of theme running through it, I don't think it could get accepted as an actual adventure.
Argh no. I'm definitely not looking to turn Dungeon into a bunch of setting books. I'm trying to turn Dragon into that! Well, no. Actually what I'm talking about comes down to two new things, really. You know how there's those little mini filler articles that have like an ice cave, or a little winecellar map? The first thing would fill that kind of space niche. It would be tiny. It would introduce some elements that are maybe a little like setting--ongoing people and places, the odd badguy or two, and as GGG described it, a bit about their goals and objectives. Fun people and places that don't end up getting killed or burned down. Certainly they'd be more use to me than a map of a winecellar that I could make on my own, and it would give islands of continuity to what otherwise is entirely episodic and unconnected. No citybook required. They would be short, so hopefully they wouldn't wreck the page count. Not to completely get rid of the other stuff--I mean the odd swamp map is fine, but just I find there's a bit too much of that sort of thing and it feels like filler. At the very least I hope it's not anethema to the staff. Eek.
The second thing is almost being done already. You know how at the end of most adventures there's a section on where to go from there? A list of possible ramifications of the adventure for future games based on how things turned out? It would fit right there--and again not in every game. It would present a mastermind, part of a scheme, or some larger story element of which the adventure has been a part. DMs and players can choose to follow up on this story thread or not by going beyond the adventure, but at least some legacy of the adventure lingers on. It allows other groups of players (like mine!) to take the original adventure, assume other folks (that's where the aforementioned adventure group bios would come in handy) have handled that--and we could still pursue the overarching legacy of the adventure. That make sense? Now granted, not everything is going to have loose ends leading to some great sinister world spanning plot. Likely the chimera taking over the pride of dire lions for example is just that--but it would be nice to see at the end of a lot of adventures. I sure would get a lot more use from them!
As for the continuity of game experience, I dunno. I think good games have enough of the canon in them that when you say "Cabal of Malar worshippers" or "Aspect of Nerull" people tend to follow. Granted, yeah the story has to be worth telling--but that's what we do, right? Tell good stories? I mean hopefully. That's the goal. I would rather someone think my story is cool and be gripped by it and think it sounds like it kicks butt, rather than have to have played it to even care. That would make me cry...
Wait for it... wait for it.... Whoosh! Was that a winged dire war rhino I heard swooping overhead. I got something down the pipe which expands on many of the topics above though it might be a tad edgy for some peoples' tastes (assuming it even sees print). I'm also hip-deep in the collaborative query process, working on a campaign-ending set of adventures that stretch some boundries -I hope.
-Matt
Well I certainly appreciate the progress. Gaming sure has evolved a lot since the old-school days. I'll keep a look out for the articles you're talking about and will probably pick them up. Anything to move along the cause. There really is a lot to love about D&D. Just because the game is constrained by certain things nowadays doesn't keep me from being really really optimistic for the possibilities of what it could become. It's still the best game out there.
Especially if G-Cube has something in the same issue.
Ha!
;)
GGG
and Rich Pett and Nick Logue are usually a safe bet (and I'm STILL waiting for a collaboration there! "Troop of actors is mislead by a dashing master criminal into a seedy city full of creepy bad guys...").
How about - twisted villain sends his monocle and top-hat wearing ropers to ambush some actor type on his island lair and butcher him horribly:)
No...must not think about collaboration...must fight...
and Rich Pett and Nick Logue are usually a safe bet (and I'm STILL waiting for a collaboration there! "Troop of actors is mislead by a dashing master criminal into a seedy city full of creepy bad guys...").How about - twisted villain sends his monocle and top-hat wearing ropers to ambush some actor type on his island lair and butcher him horribly:)
No...must not think about collaboration...must fight...
How soon can you chaps have it on JJ's desk? Next month? Smashing. Huzzah!
How soon can you chaps have it on JJ's desk? Next month? Smashing. Huzzah!and Rich Pett and Nick Logue are usually a safe bet (and I'm STILL waiting for a collaboration there! "Troop of actors is mislead by a dashing master criminal into a seedy city full of creepy bad guys...").How about - twisted villain sends his monocle and top-hat wearing ropers to ambush some actor type on his island lair and butcher him horribly:)
No...must not think about collaboration...must fight...
Let's just say Rich and I are trying for our first baby and leave it at that...his biological clock is ticking Kirth, we're doing all we can.
;-)
Let's just say Rich and I are trying for our first baby and leave it at that...his biological clock is ticking Kirth, we're doing all we can.
Ah, that explains his comparative restraint in lambasting you on the boards lately--it must be morning sickness. May the fairies of Paizo bless the baby with the magical gifts of originality, excitement, and many near-death experiences for PCs on both sides (or the middle) of both ponds.
On the contrary, I've merely been laying off cod-piece-face because I've been on holiday, and now I'm back, and I'm cross about it:)
and I'm going to blame him
and I'm going to blame him
Don't mind him...it's the hormones talking really.
On the contrary, I've merely been laying off cod-piece-face because I've been on holiday, and now I'm back, and I'm cross about it:)
Cod-piece-face? Sadly, this calls to mind Naked Gun 2 1/2: "I'm sure we can discuss this in a mature, responsible manner... isn't that right, Mr. Poopy-Pants?!" Just the sort of quote to liven up your return to dreary rain-land... um... I mean, the Queen's Bonny Isle.
"Surely, you must be joking."
"I'm not joking. And stop calling me Shirley."
"Surely, you must be joking."
"I'm not joking. And stop calling me Shirley."
"Roger, Roger. We have clearance, Clarence..."
Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
Excuse me, I speak L.A. jive.
"Golly!"
Got it. People will buy an adventure full of Airplane! gags. How's this for a few titles: Cormyr-Fried Module, Naked Ballista or perhaps Lightning Rail!
All Aboard!
GGG
Noooooooooooooo!
Striker, Striker, Striker, Striker!
Noooooooooooooo!
I don't remember that part Grim...
;-)
Glargh...blargle...murgle....help...me...*slowly dies*