Well, he is- the Archmage of the deities, to me, is boring. I've never heard any good lore on this guy, and he has no real outlook or directives or anything, per se, that I've seen. Even the Complete Divine just makes his faith and temples sound like some school house.
And me complaining about Boccob is a serious issue, because I'm extremely fond of wizards, sorcerers, and all users of magic.
Let's look at other gods of magic: Wee Jas and Vecna. Both have very deffinate outlooks and stances on the use and nature of magic. Wee Jas and Vecna are two of my favorite deities, and my like of these two in particular is one of my major reasons for not just making my own completely new pantheon.
But Boccob leaves me cold. Please, can anyone cite any older sources, some 1e or 2e stuff, to give some more insight on something interesting about the church of Boccob? Some general stance or position or goals and actions in the world, by his church at least, if not he himself?
Wasn't there an article in Dragon about Boccob within the last year? Let me look around.
I like his picture in Dieties and Demigods though. He's giving the: "Are you the one who just cut the cheese?" look.
I'll get back with you in a sec.
Dragon 338, core beliefs article on Boccob. Assuming you don't have it of course.
I agree though, his temples seem like a magic item warehouse. As soon as PCs meet or are joined by a priest of Boccob, it's the first thing that pops into their minds.
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Well, he is- the Archmage of the deities, to me, is boring. I've never heard any good lore on this guy, and he has no real outlook or directives or anything, per se, that I've seen. Even the Complete Divine just makes his faith and temples sound like some school house.
And me complaining about Boccob is a serious issue, because I'm extremely fond of wizards, sorcerers, and all users of magic.
Let's look at other gods of magic: Wee Jas and Vecna. Both have very deffinate outlooks and stances on the use and nature of magic. Wee Jas and Vecna are two of my favorite deities, and my like of these two in particular is one of my major reasons for not just making my own completely new pantheon.
But Boccob leaves me cold. Please, can anyone cite any older sources, some 1e or 2e stuff, to give some more insight on something interesting about the church of Boccob? Some general stance or position or goals and actions in the world, by his church at least, if not he himself?
The great thing about Boccob is that he doesn't care that you find him boring.
The great thing about Boccob is that he doesn't care that you find him boring.
But, the poor thing about it is that if the player or the DM find the deity boring, they are less interested in using them in game. Say our friend Saern wants to make a mystic theurge, it just makes sense to me that a mystic theurge would worship a deity of magic. Now, say you didn't want the MT to be evil . . that rules out Vecna 90% of the time if not more. Also say that you don't want any connection to undead or death . . Wee Jas is out. So then we have Boccob and the player might want some flavor text about the deity that would help flesh out his character.
Saern, I'd help you out if I could. The Core Beliefs article I'm sure would helpya out and if i had the issue on me I'd give you an idea as to what it has in it. But, that particular issue is lent out to one of my players who's using one of the articles in that issue to make a staff a familiar.
The great thing about Boccob is that he doesn't care that you find him boring.But, the poor thing about it is that if the player or the DM find the deity boring, they are less interested in using them in game. Say our friend Saern wants to make a mystic theurge, it just makes sense to me that a mystic theurge would worship a deity of magic. Now, say you didn't want the MT to be evil . . that rules out Vecna 90% of the time if not more. Also say that you don't want any connection to undead or death . . Wee Jas is out. So then we have Boccob and the player might want some flavor text about the deity that would help flesh out his character.
Saern, I'd help you out if I could. The Core Beliefs article I'm sure would helpya out and if i had the issue on me I'd give you an idea as to what it has in it. But, that particular issue is lent out to one of my players who's using one of the articles in that issue to make a staff a familiar.
I was actually being sarcastic. one of Boccob's main titles is Boccob the Uncaring. That staff familiar article is cool though. I am also using those rules in my campaign.
The great thing about Boccob is that he doesn't care that you find him boring.But, the poor thing about it is that if the player or the DM find the deity boring, they are less interested in using them in game. Say our friend Saern wants to make a mystic theurge, it just makes sense to me that a mystic theurge would worship a deity of magic. Now, say you didn't want the MT to be evil . . that rules out Vecna 90% of the time if not more. Also say that you don't want any connection to undead or death . . Wee Jas is out. So then we have Boccob and the player might want some flavor text about the deity that would help flesh out his character.
Saern, I'd help you out if I could. The Core Beliefs article I'm sure would helpya out and if i had the issue on me I'd give you an idea as to what it has in it. But, that particular issue is lent out to one of my players who's using one of the articles in that issue to make a staff a familiar.
If I remember correctly, Wee Jas is really more of a goddess of magic than of death. Suloise gods were responsible for those who worshiped their pantheon and died as a result of their portfolio. Wee Jas got to be goddess of death as well b/c the entire Suloise Empire died as a result of the magically conjured Rain of Colorless Fire. I guess Fortubo still takes in the souls of those who die in industrial accidents, Beltar mining accidents, Lendor those who die of old age, etc. etc. The long and short of which is that, so long as you are willing to forgo Chaos, Wee Jas may be perfectly happy to act like a goddess of magic and minimize the death aspect. Maybe your sect considers dwelling on centuries-old disasters to be useless and morbid.
Which means you could just ignore Boccob. Maybe he seems boring b/c he is so "big picture." All magic. Like Beory and "the world/life". Lendor and "time." How can you connect with that? It's just too abstract. They don't need worshippers, they'll do just fine so long as their is a world, magic, or time. You need to take a small step down, like Pelor with "day, light, sun, life, good" or Nerull with "night, dark, death, evil" to get somethign you can get a handle on.
Maybe Boccob's "clerics" aren't. They are philosophers and theorists who don't get a smidge of divine attention from him. If they get spells maybe it's as "concept" clerics. It's just that Boccob is the concept, or the sentient part. He probably doesn't even notice them. They're like intestinal bacteria.
A good model may be the "generic" druid. They effectively serve Beory, but they are really drawing their power from the concept of "nature." She is the godhead of that concept, but she does not have to have a personal rapport with those who draw on the essence of her ineffable power.
I was actually being sarcastic. one of Boccob's main titles is Boccob the Uncaring. That staff familiar article is cool though. I am also using those rules in my campaign.The great thing about Boccob is that he doesn't care that you find him boring.But, the poor thing about it is that if the player or the DM find the deity boring, they are less interested in using them in game. Say our friend Saern wants to make a mystic theurge, it just makes sense to me that a mystic theurge would worship a deity of magic. Now, say you didn't want the MT to be evil . . that rules out Vecna 90% of the time if not more. Also say that you don't want any connection to undead or death . . Wee Jas is out. So then we have Boccob and the player might want some flavor text about the deity that would help flesh out his character.
Saern, I'd help you out if I could. The Core Beliefs article I'm sure would helpya out and if i had the issue on me I'd give you an idea as to what it has in it. But, that particular issue is lent out to one of my players who's using one of the articles in that issue to make a staff a familiar.
I caught that, thought it was pretty funny.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to eat some corn on the boccob.
*ba dum tish*
Director of Narrative
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The Core Beliefs article in the Dragon issue mentioned does Boccob the Uncaring the most justice of anything I have seen printed about him. Mine, however, is "out on loan"- (then lost) so I'm useless on the details as well.
One of the things I recall the most vividly fromt he article is the different philosophical shools of thought on him by his worshippers. For one thing, to follow a deity that is so far removed from the realms of the Material Plane takes a certain dedication knowing that you will never commune with him or see any results of him touching the world in anyway. Most of his clerics are old scribes and scholars. Most of the Uncaring One's priests that one would meet out on the road or resting up at a road-side hostel would be youngsters out trying to track down lost lore.
It is also believed by some worshippers that magic is finite, and dwindles from the world with each casting of a spell or use of an item. I just like that sentiment coming from a world so chock with magic.
But yeah, it's hard to be wowed by anyone with "the Uncaring" in his name and a god-like control over magic. Wait, nah, god-like control over magic is pretty awe inspiring - but kinda boring.
In my current campaign, the PCs had to track down some information that was rare and only a temple of Boccob or the Lonely Tower could help. I had the necessary temple to Boccob (of which most are libraries) be disguised as a retirement lodge in this small village. The whole village was under the effect of a permanent anti-magic field and the Boccobites that lived at the lodge were all there because they were suffering from a magical disease for which no real cure had been found. The disease was caused by having an ability to have detect magic or arcane sight as a permanent ability throughout an extended life. So the retirees researched their days away in an area that would effectively negate the source of their malady.
Well, the article sounds interesting, and no, I don't have a subscription to Dragon. While much of it sounds very interesting, I'm not sure I want to even open the door on all the different class options and feats I hear are inside it. However, I may look into purchasing back issues of specific ones, so what is the number on that particular magazine, if anyone knows?
Well, the article sounds interesting, and no, I don't have a subscription to Dragon. While much of it sounds very interesting, I'm not sure I want to even open the door on all the different class options and feats I hear are inside it. However, I may look into purchasing back issues of specific ones, so what is the number on that particular magazine, if anyone knows?
Not to be a complete booster, but Dragon is worth it. Especially if you like using Greyhawk deities Saern. They haven't done a bad job yet! (Boccob, Pelor, Olidammara, etc.) I know Vecna is comeing up and there are rumors about Wee Jas (my personal favorite).
Also Demonomicon (considering the important role fiends have played in the history of your homebrew). The ecology articles are also good on a month to month basis. They have really reined in the "slew of new feats every month" and "5 new PRCs per month" thing.
Well, the article sounds interesting, and no, I don't have a subscription to Dragon. While much of it sounds very interesting, I'm not sure I want to even open the door on all the different class options and feats I hear are inside it. However, I may look into purchasing back issues of specific ones, so what is the number on that particular magazine, if anyone knows?
#338
Boccob has always been to me the default god that I can give my mage. I've never really thought that deeply about him.
Heck, I didn't even read the article on him completely. I should do so.
*busies himself*
I have been running the Night Below campaign for a few years now (converted to 3 then 3.5). The leader of the party is a cleric of Boccob (he is also the only survivor of the first 'party'). He is NG in alignment. The way we have played the church of Boccob is a bit like the FBI as portrayed in the X-Files. He was originally 'assigned' to the mission of trying to find out what was happening to spellcasters who were disappearing in the region by his superior High priest Skinner. He is deeply concerned that the culprits will turn out to be 'the Cancer Man's' associates(the NE Boccob worshippers). The God may not care but the Church is a bunch of Intelligent Wise people with some flexible morals who are concerned about the big picture- what effects magic (In D&D thats like the environment and nuclear arms rolled into one). In my world they are an excellent place to sell and buy magic items, they have good contacts and catalogues in this respect. They frequently sponsor missions to explore strange magical areas or recover unusual magic items for examination (usually with an agent (ie cleric) along who knows a bit about it).
In this campaign when his party was wiped out he was put in contact with a couple of groups of adventurers who formed the next party- some had 'worked' for the church before. This was a TV mission Impossible style recruitment ( " I need a rogue who is prepared to take risks, a couple of solid fighter types who will form a wall when need be and of course a wizard"- (sorcerors are not as popular with the Church)). Once they were on the Mission the group took on an Aliens Motif "We are going to wipe them out, not to study right, not to bring back" --apparently the Cancer Man wants whatever is doing this brought back for study.---Boccob Boring- you have got to be kidding--it is intrigue, power, exploration and motivation. And what is more everyone knows the Uncaring one aint gonna intervene on your behalf so dont bother asking either win or die- but you are on your own
Wee Jas > Boccob
You speak the truth.
As someone who has the original pencil sketch for the Wee Jas art hanging on the wall. I agree.
Wee Jas > Boccob
My favorite character ever was Mononoke the Mystic Theurge of Boccob. She was basically the Wise Old Man archetype with a few quirks and with a prime directive that went something like 'Boldly go and recover/discover magic where none have delved before.'
In general, I do agree though that Boccob is the least appealing of the core deities for his general lack of libido. I myself like Boccob best of the Deities because his attitude most closely matches mine and because he's the god of magic like Wee Jas but without her fringe interests in death and whatnot. Magic is all that matters to me :)
Well, the article sounds interesting, and no, I don't have a subscription to Dragon. While much of it sounds very interesting, I'm not sure I want to even open the door on all the different class options and feats I hear are inside it. However, I may look into purchasing back issues of specific ones, so what is the number on that particular magazine, if anyone knows?Not to be a complete booster, but Dragon is worth it. Especially if you like using Greyhawk deities Saern. They haven't done a bad job yet! (Boccob, Pelor, Olidammara, etc.) I know Vecna is comeing up and there are rumors about Wee Jas (my personal favorite).
Also Demonomicon (considering the important role fiends have played in the history of your homebrew). The ecology articles are also good on a month to month basis. They have really reined in the "slew of new feats every month" and "5 new PRCs per month" thing.
I'm glad to hear that. To tell the truth, the fear of being inundated with new material, and paying for that which I would never use, is what has kept me from getting the magazine thus far. I've got a birthday coming up soon, which looks like the perfect opportunity to treat myself to a trial run. I'll give it some consideration. Also, getting in on those Vecna and Wee Jas articles is really tempting....
I use to in general take the deities I liked from various campaign settings and tossed out the ones I didn't and then that gave me an entirely new pantheon for my homebrewed games.
Boccob the Uncaring was always present, I don't know why I like him so much, but I have always liked him, maybe because he is the Archmage of the Deities, maybe because I liked the picture in Deities & Demigods.
He always became the Father of Magic in my games, the god that the three lesser magic deities came from (which were the three moon/magic deities from Dragonlance).
Still... I always liked Boccob, and even now that I work on my own pantheon, Azrai (An Overgod who has recently taken a keen interest in the campaign world to set right the wrongs that his 'children' has brought to the world) is the spitting image of Boccob.
Boccob > Wee Jas (She just never made the cut for me).
Wee Jas > Boccob
Just don't ask her about her brother Hugh. hehe
On the same issue as Pelor article was, there was also an article about monks dedicated to specific gods. And my next character will so be monk of Wee Jas.
Wee Jas > Boccob.
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We play 2nd edition in a homebrew that is really just a slightly reorganized Greyhawk but with bits and snatches of other interesting ideas from a variety of sources. The pantheon is very large and often confusing but the one god we've never included is Boccob. I agree - he's boring. In my estimation, he's more of a "science" and less of a "religion". If he doesn't care & won't get involved & doesn't require our devotion to function then *shrug* who needs 'im? There are plenty of interesting deities out there who DO "need" a character's worship/devotion. I replace any Boccob references/temples in my campaign with academic/intellectual centers.
I really liked the post about the FBI viewpoint and also about how you adapted Boccob's followers to be in a position of power and influence in your Night Below campaign. It sounds very similar in some aspects to my view. I mean, one would hardly call the FBI a religion!
Anyway, I've never had Boccob be a religion in my games and there haven't been any negative reprocusions from it so far (I think).
Hmm, i assume you are playing more in a canon-style greyhawk ...
remember, in greyhawk, magic is slowly fading away...
For what it's worth, I'm not sure what the origin of this notion was. A couple of plot devices along the way were additional nails TSR was trying to put into the Greyhawk coffin.
Regardless, I don't use that plot element, though our world is pretty strict GH canon otherwise.
Jack
"Boccob has very few active followers, and fewer clerics; whether or not any serve or revere him seems of no importance to him. Throughout the Flanaess, seers and diviners entreat him for omens, sages revere him, and those seeking to create new magical items or spells often seek his aid. Boccob almost never leaves his own halls in the plane of Concordant Opposition, preferring to send his demigod servant Zagyg the Mad instead.
Boccob's Priests are expected to be grave, serious folk devoted to the pursuit of knowledge. They must adventure to recover lost magical treasures, tomes of lore, and the like. Worship for Boccob involves recitation of formulae and complex rituals, incense burning, and recitations from works honouring knowledge."
That's from my compiled notes of GH deities (source(s) unknown / lost). According to the Living Greyhawk Deities v2.0 (have a look for this pdf), yes most of his clerics are boring just like their God, but it does offer some flavour, "A follower of Boccob might rescue a sorcerer captured by bugbears, brave a ruin to retrieve an ancient spellbook, or break up a cult of ur-priests seeking to cut off their magic power to all but themselves." You can certainly run them as pretty strict Neutrals (favouring no side over the other), whose motives are all about getting hold of magical power through adventuring.
Now, according to my notes "Zagyg has no priests and very few worshipers", but if you want another God of Magic, you could easily ignore that (as does LGGv2.0), allowing Zagyg Clerics with access to Chaos, Knowledge and Magic domains.
Other options in GH include Deep Sashelas (CG, Elf, Knowledge (oceans), Beauty, Water Magic), or Ye'Cind (CG, Elf, Music, Magical Songs).
Hmm, i assume you are playing more in a canon-style greyhawk ...
remember, in greyhawk, magic is slowly fading away...For what it's worth, I'm not sure what the origin of this notion was. A couple of plot devices along the way were additional nails TSR was trying to put into the Greyhawk coffin.
Regardless, I don't use that plot element, though our world is pretty strict GH canon otherwise.
Jack
The "Fading Magic" was introduced even in the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set. In the Foreword of the Glossography, it states as much. That´s about as "Canon" as it gets...
The Core Belief article on Boccob takes this as a fact and builds upon it. This is one reason why he seems uncaring: He tries to stave off the eventual loss of magic, and is thus preoccupied.His priests won´t take it lightly if magic - any magic - is destroyed, as this is thought to hasten the death of magic. They rather retrieve lost magic and bring it into circulation once more.
Granted, this still does not make him any less boring, but it can help to bring his priests into play and set them up as morally ambiguous players in the world. ("No, Mr. Paladin, there is no way you have this evil Vorpal Blade used by the Blackguard you defeated recently destroyed - it would diminish magic in this world, and therefore cannot be done.")
Still, Wee Jas probably has more charm - she is sexy, and very ambiguous to start with. That makes for an very interesting player, of course.
Stefan
I've done some extrapolation on Wee Jas on my own, as well. I embrace the concept of her being the godess of death and magic. While I use GH gods, my world is not GH, so there was never a Suel and magic is not fading, although Boccob's clerics are welcome to think that it is. Wee Jas is the goddess of the soul, with an interest (at least among her priests) on the nature of the magic that accompanies its transition between life, death, and undeath. The vanity aspect comes from a belief that those of her faith that become great enough actually merge with her godhead and become almost living avatars of the goddess. Even before then, however, a small part of her lives within the soul of all, and so by appointing oneself with riches, you appease that portion of her within you. Though the ideology is abused often, the official stance is that one is giving the luxury to Wee Jas, not to one's self. Also, such periods of reward come only after the completion of very strenuous exercises or adventures, requiring an ordered and disciplined mind. One is also expected to not rest upon past accomplishments, but enjoy luxury for a time before moving on to acquire even more power and wealth at the end of another quest/excersize.
Due to the focus on the murky transitional magic of the soul, the church is also trying to expand to add shadow and mystery to her portfolio, drawing ire and conflict from the cults of Vecna and other such gods.
There are so many different sects that can exist within Wee Jas' church, and yes, so much moral ambiguity to have fun with. Some sects embrace the undead, others reject them. Some are the churches of the rich with all their pride and vanity, others are funerary organizations that help all through the time of death. Some simply focus on mental discapline and the mystacism of the soul. Some are benevolent, some are malign, and many are neither.
So, I do agree that Wee Jas > Boccob, but I think Boccob the Boring will still remain an influential, if uninspired/uninspiring, figure.
Personally, I interpret Boccob in my game as a Conan/Hyborea-like 'Crom' style of uncaring - he doesn't watch the world, he doesn't listen to prayers (usually) and doesn't give a hoot what anyone thinks of him.
As the Archmage of the Gods, I style him as an ultra-bureaucrat who holds the title but otherwise offers very little in terms of service to the Gods except in crises, where he will offer just enough to let him get back to his privacy and be left alone.
M
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I've always seen Boccob's apparent attitude about mortal affairs as a projection rather than a reality.
First, He doesn't have many clerics because the true worship comes from one's devotion to the arcane. Clerics can use divine magic granted by him but as the Archmage of the Gods it seems illogical for him to give divine magic when his agenda would be to increase the use of arcane magic. So he doesn't encourage devout worship as it is unnecessary and a waste of his energy and time.
Boccob doesn't care if he has churches, temples, shrines, because the act of practicing and using arcane power is what he seeks and requires. So the perception of indifference is on the part of mortals.
Mortal wizards are fine with this attitude as well because there is no religious mumbo jumbo mixed in with their desire to use their power. No morality assigned to its purpose. Each is left to his own code to determine how to best employ the power arcane without judgement from Boccob.
So Boccob's involvement in mortal activities would be very subtle and with only a single agenda to maintain and grow the use of arcane magic.
So his interests would be in a guild of wizards or an mage experimenting with a new spell. The creation of magical items would be in a sense a holy object in the eyes of Boccob. Such tasks or the wiz/sorc performing them may receive the blessing of Boccob without anyone every truly knowing.
Boccob would watch the activities of the greatest mages with interest and may extend an influence of his power to maintain a particular wizard of power (without regard to alignment) just so that arcane magic as a whole becomes stronger. A truly worthy might well become a minor deity much like Zagyg.
Boccob's punishments would fall in line with this attitude. Damage arcane magic and you invite his wrath. Destroying a set of scrolls that contained unique spells from a powerful wizard's library may enjoin Boccob to send an appropriate punsihment to the offender. Worse, if said destructor was a wizard or a sorcerer, then that person may well find their spells are weaker or don't function properly or could even lose the ability to cast arcane magic at all.
The truest form of worship a follower could give Boccob is through dedicated practice and development of arcane magic. Something that Boccob feels a great passion for and embraces with his entire being.
Lord Silky, I like this. I know others have touched on the aspect of Boccob being interested in the maintenance (sp?) of magic and arcane power, and the fact that most of his followers are arcanists rather than priests isn't an exotic concept, either. But the concept of the percieved apathy sounds better. I'm now invisioning Boccob as a much more personal deity. He doesn't move through large acts of a church of cult, but by sending signs directly to mages he sees as being worthy of accepting the challenges he sets before them, to ensure and promote arcane power. In particular, I'm thinking of a method of life extension. I like the thought of some wizards being able to live for centuries without resorting to lichdom, but the adjudication of the mechanics involved can get sticky. However, by simply invoking the will of Boccob, it becomes clear. However, inlike in the FR, this just removes aging and maximum age- none of that Chosen template stuff.
Almost EIGHT YEARS, equinoxmaster. Congratulations. Now everyone manages this.
Now, if this was a thread about Vecna, equinoxmaster's post would fit better.
the next time I see him i will yell "DIE VECNA DIE!" at the top of my lungs
Already been done, man. 14 years ago.