I would really like to see a camaign hardbound by E. Mona and Co. Or even cooler, how about a boxed set? :)
The boxed set could contain a gazeteer-type book and a more general Greyhawk-info book, the Dungeon mag maps, and possibly some short adventures? Might be a good way for Dungeon to market its hardbound AP books.
...hey, a guy can dream right?
**post by Rob Kuntz**
Is it bad that I just total geeked out over Rob Kuntz posting?
Fricking sweet! It's Robilar! He wrote Deities and Demigods!
Hopefully Mr Mona and Mr Jacobs as well as our esteemed Lady, Lisa Stevens, have more in store for this venerable world, as I certainly do. :)
Thanks for the knowledgable input Rob. Nothing would please me more ... I eagerly look forward to your future Maure installments plus any Greyhawk-related or ODD material you're good enough to send our way.
I'm gone for a bit, and this starts up?
To be honest, each campaign system has it good and bad points. Deal with it.
I like them all, with no personal favorite.
People that don't like specific campaigns - Don't really care about them!
(this is just sarcasm - so no troll replies please)
Is it bad that I just total geeked out over Rob Kuntz posting?
No, it's not bad - I got warm fuzzy feelings over the post myself. :P
One thing each campaign setting has in common: each had to be loved by their designer(s) at one time or they never would have made it this far. In as much as this is true, that fact in the very least demands respect for each of these and for the endeavor taken by those to "create" something which was at one time only a thought or a dream. Not many people can accomplish that; and my hat is off to all those who build upon their dreams.
Nicely said, "Uncle" Rob! :P
Hi, Rob. As you’re frequenting the boards, I want to ask you something. I last read and ran Isle of the Ape some 22 years ago. IIRC, Robilar was the protagonist that gets the PCs to do the heroic quest for the forces of Good. A few years ago, I met Gary Gygax, and chatted with him (including about that module). One of the things he mentioned was that “Robilar was always evil” IIRC. If that’s the case, why would Robilar care about the Crook of Rao? (Sorry for hijacking the thread.)
Eric, not to answer on behalf of Rob, but just FYI: in "Isle of the Ape" it is Tenser that sends the heroes on their quest, not Robliar.
Robilar was not always evil, though he did turn evil during the playtest days of OD&D. Why Gary said that I am unsure, for he was neutral to about 9th level. I'd have to reread IotA as it
has been a few years, but some of that was literary extrapolation I am sure, and not campaign oriented. Now, my sacking the ToEE was an actual campaign adventure, for which I paid a hefty price by losing my castle.
Its funny, when I first read T1-4 and the back history..all I could think was, drat that stupid half-orc for ruining a perfectly good flying carpet..
I liked Greyhawk because it was plug and play,and back pre 1986 it was obvious that a lot of love went into the drafting of all the modules and I could then build my campaign based on what I wanted. Did my own hommlet-TOEE-Slavers-Giants campaign long before the big queen of spiders super mdule came out and copied what I did.
I really thought it had a good comeback with Moore and Sargent but then wham..some lame post war adventures (exclding city of skulls) and the line died..
Thanks to Dungeon for retrofitting and updating GH to 3.5.
Now, my sacking the ToEE was an actual campaign adventure, for which I paid a hefty price by losing my castle.
The stories you must have to tell... I hope you shall share some someday soon!
(Your mentioning this also brought a grin to my face because my players are fighting their way through the second level of ToEE at this time ... great times. :) )
I never got most of the 1e and 2e modules. I was much to young and poor. Despite my love for DnD I wasnt even aware of most of the modules, or even that GH was diffrent from FR. I thought that GH was just a city in FR actully. It wasnt until 3E and my returning to the game, this time with money to spend, that I became aware of GH.
I like everything that I have ever read about the setting. And I like that Paizo officially (Core Belifs/Demonomican) and unoffically (anything with out FR or Eberron on it) continue to support the setting.
A Players Guide to GH would be awsome. Almost everyday I see examples of the depth of history and shared experince that the early GH created. Im 30 years of age and most gamers around my age hear me say, "yea Ive been playing since I was 12" and then ask me about ToEE or Slavers or any thing else, and... well you get it. Alot of the time I feel completly out of the loop as to what most gamers are talking about.
So yes make some Greyhawk canon Paizo. Champion this shamefully neglected campaign and it's forgotten unloved really really old fans. :)
Thanks for the warm welcome, Lilith.
*gets out the pie and punch*
:D
Depends if you are the wizard.Yes folks, why should anyone like Greyhawk. A campaign like the Forgetable Realms based around a pathetic wizard who has sex with mortals and gods alike.... Why would anyone prefer Greyhawk over that?
Or the sexually frustrated author.
Yes folks, why should anyone like Greyhawk. A campaign like the Forgetable Realms based around a pathetic wizard who has sex with mortals and gods alike, and where archmages are so abundant that they bust tables part-time for extra income. Or how about Ebberon, where heroes racing to save the kingdom can catch the 10:45 train to Xendrik just in time. Who needs fireballs or teleportation, we've got mass transportation. Why would anyone prefer Greyhawk over that?
I have really been holding my tongue for a while. Can you post in a thread without tearing into FR or Eberron? It would really be more convincing if you could make your arguements for Greyhawk without throwing out cheap shots about other settings.
Contrary to what you might think, there isn't some grand conspiracy to keep Greyhawk down. I'm not saying the setting wouldn't have done well if things had happened differently in the 80s, but the point is, FR sold, and sold well. It sold so well that it was the ONLY thing that was making enough money to keep TSR from closing its doors for a long time. A lot of people love the setting, and a lot of people buy the novels. Its has a proven track record. You don't have to like the setting, but its not really a mystery why its still around.
I'd have to say I agree with you. The FR and Eberron hate has reached epic proportions, and this is coming from someone who loved every campaign setting EXCEPT FR in his extreme youth and had to watch them die while FR thrived(and yes..I actually have some affection for FR due to happy memories playing it while waiting for the next starjammer/planescape/dragonlance, etc. suppliment to come out). Killing FR and/or Eberron will NOT bring Greyhawk back(as someone pointed out many topics earlier)- only fan support (such as the GLF for greyhawk, or vaults of pandius for mystara, pyrespace for new spelljammer, etc.) can keep these world around and even breathe new life into them. We have more power than we think.
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What I really dislike is that GH being the "official" RPG setting, makes absolutely no sense as there hasn't been any real new GH products in years...
I want the core rule books to be based in NO official setting, the core rules should be neutral and not for any one world (prime example: the "official" D&D pantheon of gods)Kalin
I agree; the core rules should be a framework, upon which a campaign is hung.
The problem with GH being unofficially the default setting is that any and every class, prestige class, spell, feat, optional magic/psionic system, etc. that is presented as an optional rule is, therefore, considered applicable to GH, whether it fits or not.
And the reverse is also true; that elements created and intended to be GH-specific get transported to other settings. What the Hell is Lolth doing in FR? You can change the spelling, change her to a goddess, change whatever you want, but it is still misappropriation of intellectual property (I will stop short of using the 'T' word, since for all I know, TSR gained ownership the character from EGG, but it is still misuse, like a cameo from Spiderman in a Batman movie, it's appearance is jarring and leaves an unpleasant taste). And then the 'borrowed' element gets amended and thrown back into the mix. I'm sure there are/were DMs, who had players spouting off quotes from the Drizz't books, as if they were established GH 'facts'.
It niggles when I hear players in a homebrew campaign declare their cleric's allegiance to Pelor/Heironeous/Ehlonna et al., since these are the 'core' deities in the 'core' books.
If you want to run homebrew then go the whole hog. Invent your own pantheon; you'll have much more fun that way, as you'll be able to insert your own secrets. Don't just shoehorn in a bunch of gods from someone else's setting unless you want to use that setting as it was intended.
On a related note: Why is Tyr in FR? Is he on some kind of immortals-exchange program?
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In my mind having a good dm and gaming group is way more important than setting anyday. A good dm can make even the lamest setting cool, and likewise a crappy dm will make the coolest setting lame.
If you don't like something about a setting change it, especially names (they're probably the easiest thing to change of all).
Although I do have to say that I have some things I love and dislike about all the settings.
Great hawk
-like the great wheel cosmology, but the pantheon doesn't do much for me.
-like the feudal style, but there are a few too many kingdoms that all seem more or less the same.
-not a big fan of how they deal with demihumans, which is to say they haven't done anything particualarly interesting with them.
-like that there are several nasty evil nations.Forgotten Realms
- too many city states
- too many wizards
- like the gods a little more than greyhawk
- geography is more interesting
- not a fan of how they redid the cosmology for 3EEberron
- not a big fan of how they worked in a lot industrialized aspects into the setting- ie mass transist & communication.
- like how they deal with demihumans
- not a big fan of the cosmology or religion, although I like that priests of the same religion can have very diverse alignments
[color=blue]Not to highjack the thread but of the current settings I still feel dismayed that DARKSUN never made the transition from 2nd Edition to 3.0 as an official WotC campaign world.
DARKSUN is very unique in many ways but to me it still presents an excellent campaign backbone.
The sorceror kings power over the major cities gives you that feeling of many movies where the great evil powers hold sway over modern life.
The harshness of the environment makes surviving one day to the next not only a battle against the creatures of the land but the land itself.
The way magic is handled gives magic a stong place in society rather than just something totally fictional and unexplained.
And the most important part for me is the dominant presence of psionics.
For the record I dislike Greyhawk, mainly because of the names and its jigsaw puzzle style landscape which makes you wonder why things are where they are.
I loath Eberron because of its sloppy attempt to blur futuristic commodities within a fantasy world. To me this causes more problems than it solves.
I dislike Dragonlance, not due to any major fault of the world but because of how the world stemed more from the original novels than from anything else. theres too much emphasis of the companions which seeps into 90% of characters created in the world, and why does every kender have to be identical to tasslehoff.
I loved Ravenloft, at first, but over time its do or die attitude destroyed peoples emphusiasm to play in ravenloft. The original idea was sound but it left me thinking it could have been so much better, mask of the red death was probably the most enjoyable setting in ravenloft.
Planescape and Spelljammer where just laughable campaign worlds. both, thankfully have been partially incorporated into the general system. Sigil remains within the D&D cosmology and spelljamming ships stepped away from the stupidity of space craft and entered the more fantastically accurate Astral plane.
I like Forgotten Realms mostly but only because its got more detail than anything else out there. It does many things better than greyhawk, names and landscape alike.
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I dislike Dragonlance, not due to any major fault of the world but because of how the world stemed more from the original novels than from anything else. theres too much emphasis of the companions which seeps into 90% of characters created in the world, and why does every kender have to be identical to tasslehoff.
More to the point, why does every kender not have his hands cut off?
The original idea was that kender were assumed to have a collection of useful/useless bits and bobs which they picked up along the way. Nothing actually valuable, just if you were setting a snare, for example, the kender would always have some string or wire.
Instead, every kender player would simply rob every single person they met, and complain (if the victim objected) that "I was just acting in character". They'd even rob the other PCs blind, often to the extent of derailing the adventure...(Well, look here, seems we DID have a cure wand after all. Seems you needn't have died after all...).
This was exacerbated by the fact they had better stat mods than regular halflings, and thief bonuses as well. Personally, I'd have penalised their stealing chances, since everyone would have been on their guard if a kender walked in the room.
Pikey scum.
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I like all the settings (except Spelljammer), but it seems to me that what makes a setting spectacular is the quality of the adventures set in them. In that respect, I think Greyhawk has an advantage. Gems such as Queen of the Spiders, Temple of Elemental Evil, Tomb of Horrors, Vecna Lives, and even the recent Adventure Paths give it an edge that Eberron and Forgotten Realms don't have. Forgotten Realms, even though it boasts classics such as Undermountain, the Randal Morn series, and even the more recent City of Spiders, still has a way to go before catching up to Greyhawk. Who knows, maybe ten years from now the Eberron adventures will be so good that I'll become an Eberron fan-boy. Until then, make mine Greyhawk.
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I like all the settings (except Spelljammer), but it seems to me that what makes a setting spectacular is the quality of the adventures set in them. In that respect, I think Greyhawk has an advantage. Gems such as Queen of the Spiders, Temple of Elemental Evil, Tomb of Horrors, Vecna Lives, and even the recent Adventure Paths give it an edge that Eberron and Forgotten Realms don't have. Forgotten Realms, even though it boasts classics such as Undermountain, the Randal Morn series, and even the more recent City of Spiders, still has a way to go before catching up to Greyhawk. Who knows, maybe ten years from now the Eberron adventures will be so good that I'll become an Eberron fan-boy. Until then, make mine Greyhawk.
Well put, sir! This sums up my position extremely well too, except that I can't stand the whole Undermountain thing. But the City of the Spider Queen was awesome.
Terik, played by my brother, Terry Kuntz, was mentioned therein, IIRC.
Gadzooks!! Rob Kuntz?! How did I miss this until now? Like all other right-thinking GHers, I'm a gi-normous Robilar fan - however, how did such a hyper-capable guy end up with such a underwhelming retainer? It really was too bad about that flying carpet. However, Terik has always been one of those names mentioned in the background - what was he all about? Sorry for being such a clueless fanboy.
SB
Greyhawk does have some pretty silly names, but they're really no worse than Australia.
Actually, I take that back. Australia has far sillier names. It's like they got a 6 year old to name every location on the continent. I'd say that only 1/4 of the GH names have that feel.
Hey! Those names are aboriginal words, and while I'll admit names like Wagga Wagga and Toongabbie might sound a little funny to english speakers, some of them are cool. The tribe near my home town is called Kamillaroi. That's a cool sounding word, you gotta admit.
Unlike many other colonial nations, the white settlers in Australia in many cases actually asked the natives what places were called (gasp!) and then used those names. Kind of like Milwaukee, if Alice Cooper is to be believed ;)
PS I'm not really offended or anything. Just thought I'd point that out, you never can tell on the net. My righteous indignation is tongue in cheek :)
Oh and Greyhawk... the Flannaess? Sounds like a big wobbly dessert to me.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Greyhawk does have some pretty silly names, but they're really no worse than Australia.
Actually, I take that back. Australia has far sillier names. It's like they got a 6 year old to name every location on the continent. I'd say that only 1/4 of the GH names have that feel.
Hey! Those names are aboriginal words, and while I'll admit names like Wagga Wagga and Toongabbie might sound a little funny to english speakers, some of them are cool. The tribe near my home town is called Kamillaroi. That's a cool sounding word, you gotta admit.
Unlike many other colonial nations, the white settlers in Australia in many cases actually asked the natives what places were called (gasp!) and then used those names. Kind of like Milwaukee, if Alice Cooper is to be believed ;)
PS I'm not really offended or anything. Just thought I'd point that out, you never can tell on the net. My righteous indignation is tongue in cheek :)
Oh and Greyhawk... the Flannaess? Sounds like a big wobbly dessert to me.
I posted expecting an Aussie to step up and defend their homeland. My theory is that when early humans crossed the ocean to settle places like Hawaii or Australia, the first thing they ditched was consenants. Maybe they're too heavy to carry in primitive boats.
To be fair, in the midwest of the US, most of our place names came from the local tribes in the area. It drives me batty being out here in California where everything is a Spanish derivative. It sounds horrible to me - mesa this, villa that, etc. Give me real names like Ypsilanti or Pontiac any day!
And you're right - Kamillaroi does seem like it could sound cool. How exactly is that pronounced?
On a related note: Why is Tyr in FR? Is he on some kind of immortals-exchange program?
OK...let start:
if you go back to the 2nd Ed. Planescape and Spelljammer: each "world" in D&D in the Prime material plane is enclosed in a sphere ("called capital "s" Sphere, each about the with of a solar system, give or take), each Sphere floating in a rainbow sea of flamable energy (the Phlogeston [sp??]) so each world (Toril, Oerth, Krynn) is isolated from each other...each Sphere also has a "caretaker", a pseudo-power refered to as an "Over-Power" (Ao is the Overpower of Toril/For)
to get from Oerth (Greyhawk) to Toril (Forgotten Realms)you can either "planes walk" through one of the Planes (usually Shadow or Ethereal), use a portal/gate or hop on a spelljamming ship (space ship) and travel out of your Sphere to the other Sphere
ok, next:
2nd Ed. Planescape also describes in detail how gods need faith to survive, to stay "alive" and though the outer/inner planes are infinite, the faith there is not true faith (kinda hard to have true faith when you can see your god directly) so faith from the Prime is "pure" and all gods covet the faith from Prime worlds
now there are two types of gods, gods that start out on a prime world (like Torm in FR, Vecna in GH or Kiri-Jolith in DL) or an older god whose "religion" is planespanning (like Odin, Zeus, Set, Marduk).
Prime gods are relativly small fish in the multiplanar scheme of things and a "greater" (divine strength) prime god (like Bane or Mystra) outside of their world's Sphere can be really just a demigod due to practicle lack of followers and faith, compared to Zeus or Odin
On the otherhand a multiplanar god, say Tyr of the Norse panthenon, is dieing for lack of followers and faith, decides to flee to a prime world (a big fish in a small pond)to reap "prime faith" and eithor survive or recharge before entering the multiversal rat-race again. Another reason to leave for a prime world is due to a multiplanar god being a weak, grade B god in comparison of their panthenon and leaving for greener pastures, without being under the thumb of their ruling god
oh yeah, and the "Over-god" of a Sphere's main duty is to "shepard" the powers in their Sphere, controling who comes in and out and who becomes brand new godlings
In the Forgotten Realms :
Silvanus and Oghma are celtic (both were dieing)
Mielikki and Lovitar are finnish (both fled their panthenon)
Tyr norse (dieing)
Tymora and Beshaba greek (2 halves of Tyche)(they kinda fled, long story)
the egyptian and babalyonian gods in For, thats a whole different story
Hope that helps
Kalin
P.S. sorry for typing errors, no spellcheck
P.P.S. always thought Sif (norse) would make a good For goddess, no one has her portfolio and she's be popular
And you're right - Kamillaroi does seem like it could sound cool. How exactly is that pronounced?
Good thing about aboriginal words is that they're usually spelt how they're spoken. All vowels are short unless there's two of them eg. Coonabarabran.
So Kamillaroi is Ka-mill-a-roy. I've also seen it spelt Gamillaray.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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And you're right - Kamillaroi does seem like it could sound cool. How exactly is that pronounced?Good thing about aboriginal words is that they're usually spelt how they're spoken. All vowels are short unless there's two of them eg. Coonabarabran.
So Kamillaroi is Ka-mill-a-roy. I've also seen it spelt Gamillaray.
Ok. I withdraw my could be cool comment. That's Prince Charles's girlfriend, isn't it?
Ok. I withdraw my could be cool comment. That's Prince Charles's girlfriend, isn't it?
Nooo! You just ruined it for me too :( I never thought of that.
You can find kamillaroi dictionaries on the web, as well as many other aboriginal languages. Some of the words are cool, but alot of them sound kind of comical to us. I always thought using aboriginal words as a source in fantasy world building would make a somewhat alien effect for many non-Australians, as the sounds would be totally unfamiliar.
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Greyhawk is the mundane classic setting of D&D, the one world that was the training ground for other worlds like FR, or DL. It is a shame Greyhawk isn't around as a Core world now.
What COULD make it highly desireable for newcommers and veterans alike in the mainstream again, would be to accept change! Meaning the world itself is pretty stagnant. I understand and respect the Low Magic setting. But Re-name kingdoms and change some borders, time changes all things as nations rise and fall. For example a Orc Warlord who conquers Geoff would Re-Name the kingdom. Keep the history flowing. It would allow mistakes like Mika Oba to be forgotten, the Wolf Nomads and some of the "really stupid" things that existed back in the day to be a distant memory.
My example:
Benath Castle Greyhawk in an adventure setting once upon a time (1980's to be precise) 3 halflings with the likenesses of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. The Thang (a 6 armed rock golem resembling the Marvel superhero Thing) a spiderman like charcater, a starship enterprise... and well I think I'll just stop there. The fact remains, for the world of greyhawk to be worthy of surviving it should be re-vamped.
Maybe some new gods? Maybe stop making Iuz and Zuggtomoy the two biggest baddies there were.
Challenge the players, the low magic was fine, it just made your sorceror and wizard special. A +3 sword was a godsend!
A 20th level character was unheard of nearly. LOL
Change is a good thing.
Make some new leaders take the Living Greyhawk world and make it a core staple and as it changes there are your new modules and ideas.
The Dutchy of Urnst gets taken over by a warlord and his vast armies posessing powerful magic never seen before on Oerth... Gee, maybe a villian escaped from the Realms and came here to get things done... It would be easy pickings.
The Lich Queen campaign setting way back when opened my eyes to how easily Greyhawk would be crushed. The Balance of power in Oerth is dwarfed by other worlds.
They need to add on to the "Known World" some forgotten continent, left in exile for good reason perhaps?
More Isles to explore, or just do something unique with what already exists.
A Red Dragon Overlord and king for example, in a world with little to NO Higher enchanted weapons would find it hard pressed to de-throne him.
So that's some of my suggestions.
1. Keep History Moving Along.
2. Upscale the Balance of power a bit.
3. RE-NAME some places!!!!!
4. Add More to the World.
So, what bothered me about Greyhawk? The fact that it was like a Monty Python skit sometimes, and that it never really changed, even after a war that allegedly changed the face of the Flanaess. The war was a baby step in the right direction, it just needs to keep moving now.
But Re-name kingdoms and change some borders, time changes all things as nations rise and fall. For example a Orc Warlord who conquers Geoff would Re-Name the kingdom. Keep the history flowing. It would allow mistakes like Mika Oba to be forgotten, the Wolf Nomads and some of the "really stupid" things that existed back in the day to be a distant memory.
Hmmm... Methinks you may have overlooked some things on the more recent Greyhawk maps (from the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and Dungeon mag). The following changes occurred as a result of the Greyhawk Wars: the old Great Kingdom has splintered into fragments of its former self -- parts of the former Great Kingdom have been absorbed into the former North Province under the banner of the North Kingdom; Ahlissa has absorbed the southwestern lands of the old Great Kingdom as well as Idee (which no longer appears on the map), and those lands are now collectively known as the Great Kingdom of Ahlissa. The former eastern territories of the old Great Kingdom, around Rel Astra, are now known as the Solnor Compact. The Prelacy of Almor has also been vastly reduced in size. The name changes may not be as drastic as you would like them to be, but the world definitely has seen a fair amount of geo-political change since the 1983 boxed set. I'm curious as to how many countries disappear/are conquered and become renamed in Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc (this is an honest question, not sarcasm). Aside from Greyhawk, I'm really only familiar with Ravenloft... and while the Grand Conjunction did singnificantly rearrange the Ravenloft map, no domains were renamed (some were simply abosrbed by others).
As far as Mika Oba is concerned--I think very few Greyhawkers consider those old Rose Estes novels to be "canon" (and yes, I agree, they were pretty bad).
My example:
Benath Castle Greyhawk in an adventure setting once upon a time (1980's to be precise) 3 halflings with the likenesses of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. The Thang (a 6 armed rock golem resembling the Marvel superhero Thing) a spiderman like charcater, a starship enterprise... and well I think I'll just stop there. The fact remains, for the world of greyhawk to be worthy of surviving it should be re-vamped.
Dude... Castle Greyhawk was a joke module, and again, few fans
consider that particular adventure to be "canon" (I'm assuming that's the one you're talking about). I disagree with the need to revamp the world. To my knowledge, all published campaign worlds have their inconsistencies, but the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has gone a long way to give the world a greater sense of cohesion. I think the political turmoil one finds in Greyhawk is second to none (even the so-called "good" nations are at each other's throats).Maybe some new gods? Maybe stop making Iuz and Zuggtomoy the two biggest baddies there were.
More gods???!!! Man, if you count all the gods listed in the Living Greyhawk campaign documents (which go well beyond those listed in the Gazetteer), there are nearly 200... how many more do you need?! Zuggtmoy (technically a demonness, not a goddess) has not made an appearance in the campaign since The Temple of Elemental Evil was released in 1985. Tharizdun has frequently been in the background in Greyhawk modules, and Vecna and (more recently) Kyuss arguably have stolen the spotlight from Iuz (indeed, some posters wonder why Iuz wasn't more active in the latest Dungeon Adventure Path when a competing evil demi-god, Kyuss, was about to wake-up right on his own doorstep!). And then, there are the mortal evil powers, like the Scarlet Brotherhood (among others) if you want to get away from the "gods threaten the Oerth" type game.
Change is a good thing.
Make some new leaders take the Living Greyhawk world and make it a core staple and as it changes there are your new modules and ideas.
I'm with you there, but it doesn't look like WotC wants to go that way.
The Dutchy of Urnst gets taken over by a warlord and his vast armies posessing powerful magic never seen before on Oerth... Gee, maybe a villian escaped from the Realms and came here to get things done... It would be easy pickings.The Lich Queen campaign setting way back when opened my eyes to how easily Greyhawk would be crushed. The Balance of power in Oerth is dwarfed by other worlds.
I prefer to keep interaction between Greyhawk, FR and DL to a minimum (ideally nil)... my own opinion, of course, to each his/her own. In 3E, they aren't even part of the same cosmology anymore. I don't mind Planescape and Ravenloft occasionally encroaching upon Greyhawk, but that's about it...
And by the way, I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else to Greyhawk... I just thought I should set the record straight on a few comments that seemed less than accurate. It might help to be more informed about recent developments in the world before you advocate for major re-vamping.
Cheers...
The war was a baby step in the right direction, it just needs to keep moving now.
This I agree with. I prefer my Greyhawk grim, and I preferred the political situation immediately after the wars (585 CY) to the more balanced picture that emerged in the LGG (591 CY). I would rather see evil gain an even stronger foothold in the world... but that's where the DM has the opportunity to ignore some things and substitute them with his/her own ideas.
I have mixed feelings about detailing other continents. The Flanaess is only sketched out as it is, and I like the fact that Greyhawk does not have the amount of detail that FR does... it gives the DM more room to maneuver!
The easy answer to why Iuz doesn't do more is that he's too caught up in the Blood War. When you're a demigod fiend, it's really hard to avoid attracting the attention of certain fiendish generals offering generous rewards in exchange for your support.
Ah, it's good to see such serious discussion concerning such a a venerable subject. Let's see what I can add...
Geoff = Gary's cousin, Geoff (forgot his last name, only met him once or twice, but he wore glasses like EGG did then). Gary liked to recognize folk in that manner, like Murlynd... et al. Much the way that many of our greatest fantasists did in the pulp days, like Howard, CA Smith, HPL, August Derleth, Robert Bloch and so many others.
I'm afraid that Greyhawk's demise in the Middle-TSR years was solely due to politics and nothing else. With the hostility towards EGG by the Blumes and later L. Williams, it was inevitable, really. It was never thereafter seriously marketed, though their were numerous projects in store for it--I know, as I was to be the Manager of the GH Line if Gary had retained control of TSR. But this is all history, none-the-less, there you have it. Future attempts by various authors to keep it solvent were no doubt due to the consumer fall-out TSR had caused by ousting EGG and crew and the product line. Slumping sales sometimes are a great motivator to return to best selling products.
Unfortunately, even with FR and DL, TSR went heavily into debt and it wasn't until WotC bailed them that the lines were able to continue. At that time I championed a Market Plan for its return, but I guess they had other ideas for it as they do now.
It is actually wonderful that Paizo has done to bring recognition to this grand setting which would have otherwise not been experienced by many FRP gamers today.
And i champion what the poster here stated (in unequal paraphrase) that he'd like to see what "Erik Mona & Co." could do with it given free rein.
Greyhawk produced some gems and rough gems and that it survives and continues to inch forward and make new progress is a testimony to its beginnings whcih are firmly rooted in the design of the DnD game itself. No other FRP World can claim that besides Blackmoor and my own World of Kalibruhn, all three of which were playtest...
AT LAST. Mr. Errant Jr. and all the rest of you people who have rambled on about the Forgetable Realms outselling Greyhawk being the reason GH isn't published, PLEASE read what Mr. Kuntz has stated above. Funny how I don't hear any of the FR and Eberron defenders saying much on this thread now. Mr. Kuntz spells it out that FR in fact didn't "save" D&D, TSR was LOSING money with FR and DragonLance, and that it was in fact WoTC buying TSR that saved D&D. Where are all you Forgetable Realms and Gooberon fans now? I don't hear you.
The next question that then comes to mind is, where did you people (FR/Gayberon fans) come up with your statements about FR sales somehow eliminated GH from publication? Mr.Kuntz's explanation has clearly put all your ramblings to rest. I'm now waiting to hear your new explanations as to why Greyhawk was screwed all these years. Mr. Errant Jr, any other minimally brilliant ramblings from you?
Mr. Kuntz said that TSR went bankrupt even with DL and FR in their stable. He did not say that Greyhawk's sales would have saved the company, nor did he say that FR didn't outsell Greyhawk. I have already stated that we don't know what would have happened if Greyhawk had been continuously supported, but if it had been more successful than FR when it was relaunched, I doubt that the line would have been trimmed yet again while FR was still supported.
I have never said anything about Greyhawk being a bad setting. I have often gone out of my way to point out that I enjoyed playing in GH as a player, but I couldn't get into it from a DM's point of view. As far as enjoying the overall feel of a setting and being able to run that setting comfortably, I much prefer FR, and to be honest, GH novels have never really been given serious support, and at this point in the game, they won't have the chance to even try to compete with the other novel lines, because WOTC would be undercutting themselves.
Ed Greenwood has said, on record, that he was told that during 2nd edition, there were large periods of time when the only D&D line that was making any money (i.e. offsetting enough of the losses from the other lines to allow the company to break even for just a bit longer) was Forgotten Realms. He did not say this in any kind of tone of superiority, but simply because he was asked about what he knew about TSR's finacial issues. If he was misinformed, I'm sorry, but I don't think he was.
BTW, Ed has worked on various lines for TSR and WOTC, not just the FR, and as I have stated elsewhere, Ed was really part of the second wave of D&D and AD&D designers that took what people like Gygax did and ran with it, expanding it to the form that carried the line into 2nd edition.
If you don't like the Forgotten Realms, that's fine, but I do take offence to you constantly deriding the setting, to the point of being dismissive of those Dungeon writers that manage to get their adventures published in the setting, and derailing threads that are asking designers about FR project they are working on. I would just like some reciprocity when it comes to respect for a venerable setting, but given the tone of your last post, I guess I'll just count on not receiving such from you.
Have fun tilting at windmills.
Oh, and "Gayberon"? That's a minimally brilliant insult . . . I'm sure it doesn't offend lots of people way beyond the people you intended to offend with it. You sir, have a rapier wit.
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The next question that then comes to mind is, where did you people (FR/Gayberon fans) come up with your statements about FR sales somehow eliminated GH from publication? Mr.Kuntz's explanation has clearly put all your ramblings to rest. I'm now waiting to hear your new explanations as to why Greyhawk was screwed all these years. Mr. Errant Jr, any other minimally brilliant ramblings from you?
I don't really think all this is terribly necessary. I don't think the demise (or otherwise) of GH was an evil conspiracy, just a business decision which may or may not have been a good one. Let's all just calm down a bit.....
A published campaign setting is nothing but reading material without a good Dungeon Master and a group of enthused players. Enthusiasm for the game can make any storyline or setting memorable, whether one likes it on paper or not.