Ilthuliak

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Organized Play Member. 78 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 5 aliases.



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Thanks for the conjecture Insain Dragoon :)

The reason why I'm wondering about ranged elemental attacks is because it would make for a more mystical themed alternative to the more traditional solar wind. Instead of attacks with bows, you could have pure elemental bolt style attacks (like a street fighter hadoken) or even elemental damage enhanced fists at range (a bit like the "blood crow" spell which screams martial maneuver to me).

All this in addition to the more traditional melee attacks (like a shoryken from street fighter). In effect you could have a small set of maneuvers for melee strikes and a small set for ranged/AOE strikes in addition to the rest (counters, boosts, party buffs,...)

Some kind of elemental beam or lance attack (and other AOE's) is just me wanting a kamehameha :p


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An archetype that gets flurry of blows, unarmed damage progression and some kind of mental stat to AC. Perhaps with a ki pool that can be used to pay for burn costs.

Too bad the name kinetic fist is already taken. Would sound good next to sacred fist.


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As closed as a typical pathfinder locked wooden door!


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I haven't fully read the last pages of 'heated' discussions, but I'm thinking no one is disagreeing with this class having a dex focus, instead of con. What people are saying is that it SHOULDN'T be.

Also, for someone not familiar with alchemists, Rynjin's comparison was a real eye-opener. An alchemist can outdamage a kineticist without too much problem while combining some of the best buffs available to different kinds of kineticists. 4+ int on an int focused class vs 2+ int on an int dumping class is just the final nail in the coffin.


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mplindustries wrote:
Burn is not a class mechanic, it's a cost. The mechanic is "do this at-will but take this penalty until you get to the point when you can ignore the penalty."

But that's just terrible design. In reality it is: "do this at will at the point when you can ignore the penalty". As it is now the penalty is so steep for so little effect you will never bother with any of it until it is free. That is why, once again, I'm an advocate for scaling wild talents useable at different 'grades' and available early. Using burn should be a mechanic that allows you to do greater than level appropriate things, instead of allowing you to keep pace with everyone else...


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To follow Paizo's example... I wouldn't put any 'fluff' in a 'coreline' book, except little pieces at the beginning of a chapter. However, for a 'setting' book...


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Here I present a quick review of the blast and infusion talents. Warning, it is a wall of text! I must say I’m in love with the kineticist but feel (like many others I presume) the class seems to be missing or lacking stuff.

General kineticist remarks:

Burn: I like the concept of burn but it’s really debilitating now. Perhaps decrease the effect of the damage (1/2 lvl?) and/or allow it to be healed faster (example: recover 1 burn every 10 minutes). Other suggestions are a ‘free’ burn pool but I’m more in favor of the reduced effect and increased recovery. This would keep it more ‘unique’. Maybe give extra options in combat like the ‘move action to reduce burn’. Perhaps a fullround action to ‘charge up’ even more? Perhaps there are better or cooler things but things like this would give more options in combat instead of the “this round I’m gonna… hmmmm…. blast an enemy again I guess?”.

Wild Talents: Perhaps it is better to give a separate progression of infusion talents and other talents, because right now you’re practically forced to take infusion talents to remain competitive in combat, largely avoiding the utility talents.

Kinetic blast: I’d give the kineticist both blast types available to him at 1st level. This way a character isn’t gimped by the odd DR, high AC, resistance,… encountered in the early levels and can contribute meaningfully before having access to expanded element. I’d also give each type 2 blasts (described later). General remark: is the kineticist immune to its own blast? For example later on when using explosion or cloud.
Aether: I’d give it a second blast type doing d6 – 1 force damage affected by spell resistance and requiring a touch attack (the aether kineticist should have a ‘magic missile’ option from the get go). The reduced damage prevents it from becoming overpowering compared to traditional damage types. I’d also change the force ward to recover 1 HP every round; still not enough to help much in combat but allows your char to be ready for the next one pronto (for example in a dungeon). Perhaps (alternatively) include an option to recover the barrier 25%/half/75% or completely (pending testing) as a full round action? Gives a character more options in combat. An aether kineticist under heavy attacks, surrounded by enemies trying his best round after round to maintain his barrier is a mental image I find awesome.
Air: Wild blasts are good, as is the defense. Good job!
Earth: Add a ranged touch blast dealing acid damage (the energy damage associated with Earth). Otherwise the existing blast and defence are good.
Fire: I’d give it a second blast type doing d6 + 1 bludgeoning damage targeting normal AC. This represents pockets of air superheated and exploding near the enemy, creating shockwaves. Since searing flesh is the weakest of the defenses it should also affect manufactured weapons, but perhaps not reach weapons. Punishing enemies for attacking feels like a fire thing. I really like the grapple distinction, very nice!
Water: Wild blasts are good, as is the defense. Again good job! Air and Water really seem the strongest, most fleshed out options in the playtest.

Infusion talents:
General comment: I’d make sure talents remain useful during the life of a kineticist, especially because it is difficult to get rid of useless talents or talents you no longer like (only 3 in your lifetime). This also applies for the non-infusion talents. I feel this would be best accomplished by allowing increased effects by increasing burn expenditure. In addition, some late game talents feel like it should be possible to have them earlier (like explosion coming online at lvl 16(!). I don’t care how cool that fireball is, most mages don’t even bother using theirs anymore). More on this later.
The alternative to scaling talents is a vastly larger list of non-scaling talents (like it is now). For example: a levitation talent, a flying talent, a high speed flying talent,… instead of one upgradeable “fly talent”. If this approach is used both the number of talents gained has to increase (maybe even 1 each level) and/or vastly improved training opportunities. If feel a smaller number of talents that are varied in power and customizable by accepting burn remain useful throughout your entire career and can give the kineticist some much needed utility.

Burning Infusion: Add greater burning damage for more burn. Perhaps add a clause, when using X burn, a creature dying from the blast or the fire afterwards leaves no remains (making raise dead impossible and thus requiring resurrection). This feels like a real fire thing to do.

Chain Lightning: Reduce level, prerequisites and change burn to 1; allow it to arc to only a second target. Allow extra targets for more burn. Maybe up to 3 targets for 2 burn, and current version for 3 burn.

Chilling Infusion: Seems ok for what it does but comes in late and offers no scalability whatsoever. Perhaps lower lvl, prerequisites and burn giving a more mild status effect? Then allow increased burn to give staggered. Perhaps even more burn to increase the status effect duration?

Cloud: Cool effect but comes in late. This could remain as a high level only option.

Cyclone: This talent or a reworked explosion should really be possible by fire (and possible aether). Again, maybe add scalability by lowering the burn and prereqs and reducing the area? Increase the area with more and more burn.

Entangling infusion: Has no prerequisite. If this was intended: Great! A powerful but costly early game option. More talents should be available early like this one.

Explosion: Lower prerequisites and burn, allow for a smaller explosion and range (example 5 ft radius and 30ft range for 1 burn). A pyro should be able to use this at the same level a mage begins fireballing but the actual effect will be weaker than a fireball. Increased burn gives greater (possible) range and AOE. By accepting more burn you can decide if you want a farther boom, a bigger boom or both. So at high level a pyro can spam smallish explosions at will (because specialization makes the small effect free), but big explosions will cost him HP.

Extended/Extreme range: By using scalability, this can be one talent, allowing room for more talents.

Foe Throw: And much fun was to be had by all. I love this!

Impale: Love the mental image. Perhaps this can be reworked to a universal line talent? This would give every element a ranged AOE option, but I’d keep explosion as fire only. Increased burn could extend the line.

Kinetic Blade/Kinetic Fists: Should be useable at level 1. Reduce the burn to 0 but only allowing 1d6 damage? Allow for 1 extra burn to switch to the full damage. This way a melee kineticist is possible from level 1 instead of level 5! Especially in PFS, twiddling your thumbs for 4 levels is mindnumbingly boring. I’d also make the effects work for one whole round like kinetic whip so you can make attacks of opportunity. An extra burn could give the blade the whip effect and perhaps a similar effect for fists is needed?

Kinetic Whip: See kinetic blade.

Many Throw: I like this soo much but comes online sooo late. Lowering the prereqs and burn but also targets might be a solution. Then extra burn could scale to this current version eventually. I also feel this could be a fire thing (ah la firebrand spell in DnD 3.5)

Pure Flame Infusion: Another late game addition. Perhaps let it only give a small penetration bonus at low level and low burn. Then let it scale to the full version presented in the playtest document.

Magnetic Infusion: I like the idea but the effect sounds pretty tame for 2 burn. I like the idea that it gives metal blasts a permanent accuracy bonus on one target given some specialization.

Pressurized Blast Infusion: I like the effect. The kineticist will never be able to push as well as a dedicated maneuver specialist, so why limit the distance moved? Perhaps accepting burn could give a bonus to the CMB roll?

Pushing Infusion: Merge it with Pressurized Blast Infusion. This is a redundant talent that takes up valuable space.

Rare Metal Infusion: I like the idea, but I assume some kind of Kinetic Bracer is in the works to give an enhancement bonus to your blast (or maybe allow Amulet of Mighty Fists to do the same) to increase the accuracy of the kineticist. In this regard maybe this talent needs another purpose. Maybe a focus on more exotic materials?

Sharding: A similar treatment to explosion? But keep it as a poor man’s (aka nonpyro’s) explosion.

Snaking: This could be a simple, early and cheap line area that by accepting additional burn receives the snaking benefit?

Spray: Lvl 10 for a smallish cone is way too late. Maybe allow earlier access to a 15ft cone and let it upgrade bigger and bigger. Perhaps allow burn to also upgrade to full instead of half blast damage. This should really also be a universal talent.

Torrent: aha a line effect. What I was waiting for but why no forcebeams or firestreams? This and snaking could be one upgradeable talent. Accepting burn increases the line and eventually adds snaking.

That’s it for now. Thanks for reading!


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Mergy has a good point.

Something else I note when reading through the talents is that the different effects come in very late (like KINETIC FORM requiring lvl 10, GREATER KINETIC FORM requiring lvl16,...). How about we lower the prerequisites to the same lvl a wizard gets to do these things but add some burn, like so:

KINETIC FORM
Element air, earth, fire, or water; Type Sp; Level 6; Burn 1
Prerequisites kineticist level 7th
You can call forth your element and infuse it into your entire body. You gain elemental qualities of a type of elemental that matches any of the elements you possess as if by casting elemental body I. When reaching kineticist lvl 9, by accepting 2 additional points of burn, until the next time you recover burn, whenever you use kinetic form, you can instead gain the benefits of elemental body II. When using kinetic form, you never gain the earth glide, whirlwind, or vortex abilities. When you reach kineticist lvl 10, the burn cost to use kinetic form is lowered by 1.

This way you get access to your tools the same lvl as normal casters but they cost burn to prevent at will from becoming too OP.


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Something akin to a ranger combat style could be incredibly useful as well, and because it doesn't directly impact wild blasts should not make the kineticist too powerful.


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WARNING: Wall of text incoming!

First off, I really like the kineticist. It is easily the most liked class from this playtest (for me; and if I look at the size of the different threads it seems I'm not the only one).

After building a few characters, and comparing to some other class builds I have a few remarks (note that most of these are already posted in this thread from what I've read):

- Another vote for 'Geo' instead of 'Terra' (Which could be reserved for a wood themed elemental focus)
- Skill ranks: 2+INT for a class that will (in practice) dump int is really not much. Even more so for a class that is really really combat focused. I can only hope that the fighter will be handled in Unchained but I'd advocate for at least an increase to 4+INT/ 6+INT might also be possible but might step on other classes' toes too much.
- Energy resistance/Immunity, Damage reduction and Wild Blasts: One problem I foresee is the inability to pierce resistance/immunity for elemental damage wild blasts. On other accounts, damage reduction might be a problem. True a kinetisist can diversify his damage types a bit but only starting at lvl7 and even then it leaves a lot to be desired. My suggestions are as follows:
* All elemental foci have two wild blasts available; one elemental in nature, a second physical in nature. Elementals would have fire/electricity/cold/acid/force damage and would be ranged touch attacks. Physical blasts would be normal ranged attacks and have piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage. In addition, the kineticist automatically learns both blasts. This way any type of kineticist can decide to specialise in his physical blast or his elemental one but has the other as backup in case he finds himself in combat with a resisting opponent.
* Standardize wild blast damage (physical ones d8+CON mod, elemental ones (w/o force) d6+1/2 CON mod, force d4+1/2 CON mod; all increase by 1 die every 2 lvls)
- Burn mechanic: I feel like it's too much of a detriment (for not enough gain) to actually use burn in combat. Perhaps more gains (great active effects, more passive effects) from burn can be included? Also a way to recover from burn (in a limited fashion) after a combat might give more incentive to actually use burn more regularly.

Below are some ideas on how to improve the kinetist/fix the above problems:

CALM THE STORM
Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 2; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 3th
As a full round action you can reduce your current burn by one point. The nonlethal damage resulting from this removed burn point can then be healed normally. This talent can be used a number of times each day equal to your 3 + CON modifier.

PIERCING ELEMENT
Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 4; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 7th
You automatically reduce any energy resistance of the target by 10 with your wild blast or kinetic fist or kinetic blade.

GREATER PIERCING ELEMENT
Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 6; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 11th, PIERCING ELEMENT
As piercing element but you automatically reduce energy resistance by 20. Alternatively, a creature or object targeted with energy immunity instead counts as having energy resistance 40. This resistance is not further reduced by this talent.

IGNITE THE INNER INFERNO
Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 2; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 3th
By accepting one burn, as a swift action you can empower your kinetic abilities. For one minute your wild blast as well as any kinetic fist or kinetic blade talent receives a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. At 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter this bonus is increased by one (to a maximum of +5 at lvl 15).

ELEMENTAL WRATH
Element: universal; Type: Su; Level 2; Burn —
Prerequisites: kineticist level 3th
You unleash the power of your inner soul. By accepting any number of burn (limited by your normal maximum each round) as a swift action, you temporarily gain a +2 morale bonus to constitution for each burn accepted (in effect the temporary HP gained from this CON bonus cancels the nonlethal damage inflicted by the burn). In addition, for each burn accepted you also gain a +1 to every damage die rolled for your wild blast, kinetic fists or kinetic blade. These benefits last for a number of rounds equal to the number of burn accepted. It is possible to increase your wrath over several turns, adding more and more burn, both increasing the effect in power and duration. At the end of the duration of the effect, you lose the morale bonus to constitution and suffer the full consequences of the burn accepted.

These are only a few ideas for new talents (perhaps some deserve to be built in the class itself).

*EDIT: changed a few wording issues*


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After reading through the playtest documents, I noticed a lack of longer ranged and/or AOE nukes for the Vizier. I know that for at will abilities these could get out of hand quickly but could such new veils be balanced by a 'burn essence on use' mechanic, perhaps reusing the Guru's essence burning mechanic?

I might have missed some discussions on this subject so forgive me if I'm asking things already asked x times :-)


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Axial wrote:
Does the Harbinger have a class feature which enables him to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL?

Priceless...

Comes with corresponding glowy eyes.


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In my personal experience dex-to-damage builds are somewhat more jack of all trades. They do ok in skills and ok in combat. Str-to-damage builds rock in combat but out of combat just clean their swords and do nothing (or swim in a pond or something).

But hey scorpioni, a dex character can have as high a dex as a strength character has strength, thus dealing the same damage with higher AC?

Not correct:
As displayed multiple times in this thread alone, the initial higher AC from dex characters is mostly bypassed by higher armor of str characters due to the max dex bonus of armors (sometimes as soon as lvl3 hits).

As for damage:
- Rage (urban barbarian can have the same damage upgrade but the downsides don't make it viable)
- Dragon disciple untyped boosts
- Abbyssal / Orc bloodline (either sorcerer or eldritch heritage feats; better than reading the dex books by a mile)
- Enlarge Person (THE workhorse of the low level martial)
- Monstrous Physique / Form of the dragon (up to +10(!) size bonus to str, yes please).
- No 1,5 damage bonus for THW
- Dragon style + Dragon ferocity
- ...

The list goes on...

What are the options for the dex user to increase damage in ways the str user cannot?
I know of elemental body and that's about it....

Conclusion for me: Dex-to-damage ain't broken, hell it doesn't even compare. If you want to be the king of combat, you're a Str-user.

Don't get me wrong, I love dex characters with dex to damage! But before play even begins I reconcile with the fact I'll never be the DPR machine unless I'm the only martial in the group.


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Another dark mistress vote for further along the line!


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How about:

A swashbuckler gets Weapon finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level.

At 2nd level, he gets the improved weapon finesse class feature allowing him to use weapon finesse with every light or one handed piercing or slashing weapon. (and of course all his other class features work with these weapons)

1) a 1 level dip in swashbuckler nets you about the same as fighter, seems ok.

2) the expanded weapon selection allows for more varied swashbucklers (archetypes could further expand on this with TWF or improvised weapons), but only with an investment of 2 class lvls (so less likely to get dipped).

Of course this is just me spitballing an idea. Would need to be tested and checked for overpowered issues.

3) both people who want weapon finesse at 1 st level and people who want to keep the 'improved' swashbuckler finesse get what they want.


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Lord_Malkov said wrote:

This is compounded by the fact that any decent fighter will be rocking some gloves of dueling by level 10, and even if he isn't he gets Weapon Training at 1 point behind the Slayer's Favored Target without every having to spend a swift action. The slayer is going to end up picking a target, killing it and then being stuck in the middle of a full-attack unable to get his FT bonus on a different target.

This also means that things like Cleave and Whirlwind attack are never going to be good options for a slayer.

Proposed talent or class feature:

Killer's Delight: When a slayer incapacitates or kills a creature that was the target of his focus, he may as a free action study a new target to replace the one he just has slain.

I can already picture in my head a slayer with a maniacal grin plowing through orc after orc after orc...


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Here's what I would do to change the bloodrager: focus him a bit more on spellcasting by making him the (sort of) spontaneous casting version of the magus. The class should represent raw and untamed magical power, even more than a sorcerer. A true ragemage:

- Replace max 4th lvl spellcasting with max 6th level spellcasting of magus

- Bloodrage gives a bonus to charisma instead of con. In addition a bloodrage also grants a caster level increase (let's say half of the str bonus)

- Lower full BAB to magus BAB

- Add good will save to mitigate MAD

- Grant some sort of ability that lets the bloodrager cast while making melee attacks. For example: cast swift action spell when confirming a critical OR use rage rounds to apply metamagic feats OR just give spellstrike.