CE--the monk's philosophical studies have taken him down a dark path, glimpsing things in mediation that man (or dwarf or elf or whatever the monk is) should never have seen. The monk believes that applying existing martial arts with wanton cruelty will eventually open his mind to creating a qlippoth stance or soul-wrenching ki spells. CN--before becoming a monk, the person's life was rash and unfocused. At the monastery, she attained discipline, but that discipline was the result of being surrounded by the monastic culture. Now circumstances have forced her out in the world, and without the constant push of her fellow monks, her natural tendency towards capriciousness has returned, aided by the muscle memory of years of martial arts training.
Midnightoker wrote:
The whole God Caller thing suggests a divine option. Since an arcane summoner will likely have the full arcane list to draw on (or at least through 9th level spells), that could potentially create a grossly overpowered PC (summoner does as much damage as a wizard, then send in the eidolon for some extra damage). The simplest way to avoid that would be to make the summoner a divine caster, since the divine list isn't as damage heavy as the arcane or primal list (occult may work to). That isn't my favorite option; I prefer the eidolon has some vulnerability (like sharing hit points with the summoner) that strongly pushes the summoner to spend most of his/her casting to protect the eidolon while it is in the field. That vulnerability also creates some narrative space for the summoner.
PossibleCabbage wrote: Having your eidolon be a full combatant and having the summoner being able to cast a spell would feel good. How to reign that in with power levels though might be tricky. I suggest making the eidolon and the summoner share hit points. Hard to argue that the eidolon is "tougher than the party's barbarian" if it has wizard hp's, and that certainly motivates the summoner to spend most of his/her actions on casting spells to support the eidolon. As an aside, it also cuts down on the amount of bookkeeping since there is one less "character's" hit points to track. Motivating the summoner to focus his/her casting attention on the eidolon seems particularly important if the summoner follows the sorcerer and witch with "choose your tradition" if you think of the summoner casting some high damage arcane or primal spells every round plus having the eidolon doing its thing.
The main reason for a con caster was for races with no mental stat boost, but so far in PF2, it looks like everyone gets a mental boost and a physical boost (or a free boost), so unless orcs or gnolls don't get a mental stat boost, there isn't much need for one. That being said, I wouldn't have minded if things like number of rounds of rage or wild shape (or some kind of ability where the fighter does more damage if the fight lasts long enough) were based on your con modifier.
I think it is worth quoting James Jacobs over in the other neutral champion thread (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42og8?Where-do-you-think-we-ll-see-Neutral-Ch ampions): "For example... I could see a place for a true neutral champion that's all about protecting the flow of life and death and souls, and would be a full-on fighter against undead and creatures that capture or consume souls. That would absolutely be enough meat to base a class around, but conceptually, that starts to feel like it's stealing some of the
The trick is finding a role for neutral champions that is interesting and can support an entire class but doesn't poach things from other champions. When (and IF) we come up with an idea there... only then will we start to look at possibly doing a neutral champion. But from the office of expectation management, that day might never come." And in a separate quote: "All of them are on the proverbial table, but I don't think it'd be satisfying to do just the LN and CN ones and not the N ones. Furthermore, while a LN champion could be all about fighting chaos and a CN one all about fighting law... again, that starts to potentially step on the toes of other champions a little. They'd need more than that. " It is nice that they want to do something interesting with the champions of neutrality other than mad-libbing some adjectives in other champion's abilities, but it doesn't sound like anything will happen soon.
Because Kender are WotC IP. I kid, I kid. "The war sucked and we don't feel like being evil anymore" is workable, but it feels like it is cheating the poor goblins out of a mythical moment. Everyone deserves a mythical moment, so: My PC's heard from a drunk in a bar that it was because the 4th person to pass the StarStone test was a goblin who has been hiding out from Lamashtu ever since (and has been so successful that even Paizo hasn't heard about it). Or.... Goblins love fire.
I have a feeling a couple of these things (summoner, gunslinger, shifter, or anything else that had "issues" in PF1) might have long waits before they show up. I think they all will show up, but I think Paizo really wants them good (and be acceptable at most tables) when they do arrive and that takes time.
Quandary wrote:
I think metallics as aasimar is a most excellent idea. If sylphs become a universal race, then I could see the sylph kobold being the cloud dragon proxy.
Since we haven't seen them on Golorion before, it is time for the hidden kingdom of the metallic kobolds. I look forward to some Wakandan/Themyscian style arrogance: it is not your fault that your metal work is so poor, you are just a dwarf, but, take heart, it is levels about the cheap limericks elves pass off as poetry.....
Filthy Lucre wrote:
No need to engage in literary ethnic cleansing. Gold dragons are very interested in social engineering the lives of lesser life forms (pretty much everything non-gold dragon). Gold dragons almost always have large groups of kobolds living near them. Alignment: any lawful Silver dragons tend toward high levels of religious fervor. Alignment: within one step of their god Bronze dragons enjoy spending extended periods of time disguised as a humanoids. It is dangerous to "out" them. Alignment: any neutral Brass dragons enjoy lifestyles of luxury and stimulating conversation. Unlike other dragons, they are willing to work for lesser beings to fund that lifestyle. Alignment: any neutral Copper dragons are born entertainers. Sometimes they don't recognize (or care) if their antics hurt others. Alignment: any chaotic Red dragons desire to be recognized as the best at what they do. An evil red dragon is the worst monster, and a good one is the greatest hero. Either way it is good for your health to recognize (and sing the praises of) any red dragon you meet. Alignment: any non-neutral Blue dragons prefer to live in more complicated societies than other dragons, using magic to communicate with their peers with great regularity (since they don't like living around other dragons anymore than any other dragon). Blue dragons almost always have large groups of kobolds living near them. Alignment: any lawful Green dragons think of themselves as authors and lesser beings as their books. A green dragon might help an orc become chief of her tribe only to engineer the orcs downfall because the Green feels like telling a tragedy. Or a Green might terrorize a Halfling family to prod a member of the family into becoming a paladin. Alignment: it doesn't matter, you won't know until it is too late anyway Black dragons are the most territorial and antisocial of dragonkind. As far as they are concerned anything with an int of 3 or higher should stay out of their swamp. Or else become dinner. Alignment: CE White dragons are a subrace of Silver dragons that turned to nature worship/druidism. Alignment: Any neutral
Dimension door doesn't force you to leave your familiar to die, the fact that you didn't think through the implications when the party rogue said "I think the next room is the dragon's lair" is what forced your wizard to leave his/her familiar to die. "Fluffy, wait out here, I will be back in a bit" is far more valuable for the familiar's lifespan than any spell.
I think I would go with each god having a single "most common" domain, a paragraph saying gods often benefit from having servants with other domains, so clerics can pick any common domain. Then I would make lists like "tyranny, pain, and undeath are uncommon for good aligned deities", and players should talk to their GM's if they want to make a good cleric with pain domain (messed up follower of Vildeis). So, new players can easily play the "most common" domain for their PC's god, experienced players don't have to worry about whether Plague domain is available for Urgathoa or not, and GM's can decide if they want to put up "necromancy isn't evil because I have a cleric of Sarenrae with the undeath domain."
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think the "not a pain in the butt to adventure with" is one of the big stumbling blocks for the champions of neutrality. In some ways it is worse than the champions of evil, since you can expect bad behavior out of "super-extra evil guy", and you really shouldn't have to expect it out of champions of neutrality (except for maybe the CN one). I have a hard time thinking of CN tenets that aren't just watered down versions of the CG (and what I presume the CE ones will be). Maybe liberate slaves, but then they are on their own (shouldn't be dependent on you, that is just a step back towards slavery) and art is inherently beneficial (even if it is done on someone else's property without their permission--say hello to the CN champion of graffiti)---sounds like a jerk and a pain in the butt to me.
1d6 Fall Damage wrote: I am curious how pantheon rules interact with spells like Divine Lance. The simplest idea would be that the spells would key off of the patron deity. When you are building your pantheon, just make sure there is one non-TN deity in the group, so that one can be the patron. I imagine that is how the final oracle will work too: you worship fire or battle or whatnot, pick a god with that in the portfolio as the patron deity for purposes of spells that require a deity. You are an oracle, not a cleric or paladin, so you can ignore the anathemas associated with that god (unless you want to be bound by them).
UnArcaneElection wrote:
The whole bit about "In both cases, memories and writings rearrange themselves to omit you smoothly, rather than leaving obvious gaps" makes me think what he really did was teleport the cursed individual from one Golorian to an alternate version where the cursed never existed. Thus he didn't really mess with your memory, since the "you" that remembered the cursed person isn't the same "you" that is meeting the stranger who claims to be your best friend. And if you break the curse (or Irori lifts it), Irori just sends you back to the Golorian you came from.
Maybe the witch could merge with the familiar (one being shared hit points best of the 2 saves) for a short time each day. That would add survivability to the familiar and creepiness to the witch (particularly if the familiar was a spider or bug). Limited time means it won't be all day, but a witch who was going into combat would have the option.
I would argue that witches need "creepy" spells, but that lessons should handle those. After that if there must be one list, arcane seems to fit best due to the learning (and int casting), since the main reason occult was a fit was for the "creepy" spells. If the APG wants to have a primarily occult caster (big if at this point), well being cursed by power is a primary theme in occult, and only a corner case for divine, so it seems like oracle would be a better thematic fit (and it isn't like oracles do actual mythological oracle stuff anyway).
Ravingdork wrote:
I think the conversation would actually go like this: Player: Hey, want to check out the new Oracle class!
Honestly, high charisma types are the only ones who could fall for this sales pitch. High physical stat types have probably had to work out or practice, so "powers for nothing" is suspicious. High wisdom types wouldn't "feel right" about it. High intelligence types should figure "it doesn't make any sense for someone to offer me something for nothing." High charisma types assume everyone loves them anyway, so why shouldn't a mysterious stranger give them a magic pet....
It seems to me that if they added a couple of divine-related greater and major lessons in the APG, a lot of the concern would go away. It may only need one that gives your familiar summon fiend and the witch a hellfire rebuke hex and one that gives some good healing options. Then the "make a deal with the devil" and the healbot "good witch" archetypes would both be supported without opening up divine witches. Of course, for my money, the witch shouldn't be a list caster in the first place and should get all the spells from lessons which could draw from all the traditions. The big selling point would be that witch is best positioned to get a little bit from tradition A, a little bit from tradition B,....
Angel Hunter D wrote: If they grant divine power outside their normal avenue, wouldn't we just have an oracle? Right now, the oracle is a group effort (possibly even an unintentional one) rather than a single god's work. Besides for a lot of witch patrons it would make more sense to have a curse trigger if you don't use a particular power instead of if you do, as it is for oracles: Why wasn't that orc that just died under a hex? I need souls. I guess it's time for you to not be able to heal until you curse and kill some humanoid, so you know not to let souls go to waste.
It seems like the existence of the divine sorcerer puts a fork in the idea that accessing divine power without divine intervention is inherently dangerous in PF2 (honestly that should be more occult magic's gimmick anyway). It seems like it is more about who opens the faucet of power in the first place rather than who controls how fast the power comes out of it....
In the fullness of time, I am sure there will be a divine option (may not be in the APG), but I suspect they didn't want people comparing the divine oracle to the divine witch in the playtest or be in a huff because "they have two divine things in the playtest and only 1 arcane thing" (and let's not pretend that wouldn't have happened).
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
I think it is: evil soul becomes an evil petitioner that (possibly) becomes a devil/demon/daemon (or whatnot). It is a fairly marginal thing: the odds are that it won't be a big empowerment of evil (most evil petitioners don't rise very high). A good soul could spend eternity singing "Joy to the World" (Jeremy was a Bullfrog version for CG) and not adding a lot to the forces of Good. On the other hand, that redeemed gnoll might end up becoming a Solar instead of a Balor.
The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Something like an Ophanim angel (wheels with lots of eyes) would work for me. I am not sure what the "good" version of the horrific appearance effect should be.
MidsouthGuy wrote: My personal hypothesis is that Barbatos is a Qlippoth Lord who became Lawful. Instead of wanting to wipe out mortal life, he wants to punish, torment, and degrade it. His best bet for making that desire come true is to join the ranks of Hell, so he did. Him being a Qlippoth Lord would explain the friendship with Chaotic beings and eldritch appearance. Now I am picturing a Qlippoth Lord that became an Empyreal Lord (maybe going so far as to become LG) to better fight demons, and everyone was "we can trust this thing as long as demons exist, but they are ever defeated....."
I suspect that the material plane is unpleasant to the elememntals. It may even be painful. Think of the poor fire elemental--it is bitterly cold and there humidity in the air--it may not do damage in the game sense (no hit points lost), but it can still be unpleasant. They may regard organic life as an unnatural aberration, maybe akin to how the average humanoid would view something from the Far Realm. No one badmouths John Q. Dirtfarmer if he uses his shovel to smack some tentacle horror that pops out of a dimensional portal without waiting to see if it will suck out someone's brain. In my games, I have the Elemental Liberation Front (ELF), a group of elementals trying to end the slave taking practices of the material plane's magic users. No reason to assume that elementals don't talk to each other, and stories of mistreatment by humanoids may be widespread. If a PC found him/herself in an unpleasant environment and met some hideous monsters that were widely regarded as hostile in the PC's culture, what do you think he/she would do?
Tender Tendrils wrote:
I get magic because my daddy is a devil is okay for that magic to be divine, but I get my magic because I learned it from a devil means the magic is somehow occult? On the surface, that doesn't feel right to me. Now if they say something like "devils and fey lords teach witches occult magic in order to disguise their influence", I could buy that (assuming they explained how a nonoccult patron can teach occult magic [for devils I assume it would involve mining knowledge from occult casters souls in Hell]), but I haven't seen anything like that either (especially on this thread)
I am assuming the witch will be the prepared version of the sorcerer: your patron might be, for example, a dragon (arcane), a devil (divine), an archfey (primal), or a GOO (occult). The hexes will be the focus spells. Int caster, which will also solve "it isn't right that my wizard can't summon a demon", since a witch/wizard multiclass should be a good combo.
Even if the rest of the designers decided that "I'm feeling evil" is how they meant for this to play out, I think they should clarify it, since RAW + unconventional often equals problems at tables. That being said, I would be fine if Mark changes it. If that is the case, I hope they find something more imaginative than "eventually you will turn evil/good/lawful/chaotic"--maybe every time a nonevil type casts the spell an imp teleports into the vicinity (you don't have to be evil to use this spell, but you are helping evil get a stronger foothold in the world every time you do). Last I heard, imps are still worth xp and have loot, so it is a win-win for the murder hoboes.
Ed Reppert wrote:
Those are great spell components. That does make me think of those old Weird Tales (and Dune) where psychic powers often involved sniffing something or drinking something (hmmmm, maybe the alchemist is already psychic). Maybe black lotus, hallucinatory mushrooms, Spice, and Granny's Moonshine as archetypes.....
Pinstripedbarbarian wrote:
I agree. It would be nice to account for occult being available on Day 1. On the other hand, in the "why is bard occult" thread, Mark Seifter said: Fey are tricky! It's slightly different metaphysically, but Mechagamera was right on the money that fey were "cheating" and doing weird things with their magic, hacking the essences they have rather than using mental/vital combo, but very similar. Maybe Hags are good at hacking too....
Arcaian wrote:
You go see the oracle to find out what quest the gods want to go on. You go see the medium to find out what quest your dead aunt wants you to go on. That seems very thematically similar to me. It is basically mad libs.
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