Rampant Sorcerer Speculation


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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As we all know nothing is more productive on the interwebs than rampant speculation; so lets funnel it towards the sorcerer.

The new direction 2e is taking the sorcerer pleases me greatly; at least thematically, I am neither smart enough nor experienced enough with TRPG's to tell what is and isn't mechanically great. What about this direction pleases me? BLOODLINES!!

New and Improved Bloodlines that make a character feel even more 'unique' and defines the sorcerer as the innately magical class even better than it was before. No longer must all sorcerers be the arcane charasmatic understudy to the Wizard; now they can truly fit the design space of a magical accident, or the scion of some long lost lineage; or the recipient of some dark pact with a lovecraftian horror and have mechanical abilites that match thematically with their story.

While I was to some extent hoping that 2e would replace the term bloodline with something that didn't imply direct descent as much (as not all sorcerers are necessarly the product of some ancestral extraplanar canoodling) the introduction of sorcerers with occult; divine and primal magic goes towards making the class able to touch on a much broader range of character concepts.

So where is the speculation you ask? in these new and improved BLOODLINES!! Of course. What bloodlines do you thing will be in the CRB? in the Lost Omens World Guide? In the Rulebooks to Come?

There are the obvious ones like:
× Undead (100% confirmed by spoiler)
× Imperial (99% sure Seoni has been confirmed as Imperial)
× Angelic (Qundle in Oblivion Oath)
× all of the others from the playtest (Draconic; Demonic; Fey and the Occult one i forget the name of)

But what are your outlandish hopes and dreams for the bloodlines of the sorcerers to come. Have any more been confirmed / heavily hinted at?

I for one am hoping for some manner of storm bloodline with primal spells and A-grade blasting potential so I can make something similar to a Storm Order druid without all the baggage that comes with being a druid and having be all druidic and such (To be clear druids are cool, and have their place in the game but there should also be a place for the character that is an aspect of the storm without having to concern themselves with notions of balance or the natural order). Like the stormborn bloodline that was in the APG but more exciting; more primal; more thunderous.


I think that Demonic and Hag was confirmed as well in the banquet, now I wonder if they gave Occult one more bloodline to make company to Abberant.

Sorcerer looks indeed very interesting and I like the direction of them being very focus spell heavy and gaining additional effects by using the bloodline stuff.

Now in the speculation area, I think that the Draconic lineage will increase the AC every time they cast the bloodline spells or focus by making it grow scales for a round, with the dragon claw focus spell it would make them the most physical oriented sorcerer to take utility of the bespell feat.


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I'm hoping for an Elemental Bloodline, which I feel like would use Primal Magic. Maybe a Focus Power to turn any energy spell to ypur element while also tacking on a debuff appropriate to the element? (Enfeebled for fire, Sluggish for elec, Hampered or Entangled for cold, ? For Earth?)


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I would presume hag would be the new occult bloodline. Mental spells, illussions, and curses sounds up their alley.

Primal could use another bloodline, and I'm presuming that it'll be elemental if they can fit so many core bloodlines in. It'd fulfill the nature-based blaster role nicely, and cover a lot of concepts.

For the future… I can't wait to get another shot at a rakshasa bloodline. The old bloodline just had powers that were spells you could take anyway, and the new setup makes that much less likely. Obviously, an arcane bloodline like rakshasas themselves.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Now that you’ve mentioned it, I’m curious what an Android bloodline would look like. Either occult or primal would work for me: occult because technology is the antithesis of primal as presented so far, or primal for honestly the same reason.

Expanding what primal means would be a good use of sorcerer bloodlines.


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I think it's pretty important that sorcerers get a bloodline for "whatever the positive (or at least neutral) side of Occult is".


Kyrone wrote:

I think that Demonic and Hag was confirmed as well in the banquet, now I wonder if they gave Occult one more bloodline to make company to Abberant.

Sorcerer looks indeed very interesting and I like the direction of them being very focus spell heavy and gaining additional effects by using the bloodline stuff.

Now in the speculation area, I think that the Draconic lineage will increase the AC every time they cast the bloodline spells or focus by making it grow scales for a round, with the dragon claw focus spell it would make them the most physical oriented sorcerer to take utility of the bespell feat.

Now I think about it; that makes 3 confirmed divine bloodlines (angelic; demonic and undead) and I think they might try and have a roughly even spread over the diffrent spell lists so we may end up with at least 12 bloodlines (a boy can dream). I hope you're right in that we might be able to build a bit more 'tanky' sorcerer of the draconic bloodline.


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Another big potential that I'm sure they will explore in time is sorcerer feats specific of a given bloodline. The playtest gave us a hint of feats specific for spell lists, but nothing stops Paizo (or a 3PP or you, at your home game) to creat feats that bring out the flavor of a specific bloodline!

I think this is a small part of what they have been saying all along: the 2e system is built to be more expandable (and, therefore, customizable) than 1e allowed them to be. Hype!


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think it's pretty important that sorcerers get a bloodline for "whatever the positive (or at least neutral) side of Occult is".

Hopefully we get a few good occult options for the sorcerer early on, maybe something based on ancesestors/ghosts could make a decent neutral occult bloodline.

And if you're listening o' great and powerful creator of content perhaps ... perhaps if we are good ... perhaps a bloodline based on good-aligned creatures that protect us from the lovecraftian horror. Perhaps based on LG floating jellyfish from outer space; perhaps. (Please let us play as flumph descended/empowered sorcerers, please, please, please)


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flfontes wrote:

Another big potential that I'm sure they will explore in time is sorcerer feats specific of a given bloodline. The playtest gave us a hint of feats specific for spell lists, but nothing stops Paizo (or a 3PP or you, at your home game) to creat feats that bring out the flavor of a specific bloodline!

I think this is a small part of what they have been saying all along: the 2e system is built to be more expandable (and, therefore, customizable) than 1e allowed them to be. Hype!

That's what excites me the most about 2e, they know how they grew last time now and what did and didn't work and the problems they ran into, so in 2e they can have that chassis in place to build on; already knowing how about archetypes will work; and new race options (ancesteries and heritages) so that when they build outwards and upwards the whole thing can feel more connected and well planned even without having to map out the exact path before hand. I.e. I really think 2e was designed with room to grow in mind.

Mind you the haphazard learning as they go of 1e was okay; if tending to occasionally lead to power creep but i am super hyped to see them put it all together into a unified system.


AnimatedPaper wrote:
Now that you’ve mentioned it, I’m curious what an Android bloodline would look like.

Use PF1 Nanite bloodline as a starting point. All it's bonus spells were wizard with crossovers to druid and alchemist. I think I'd go with arcane 1st with primal as a backup.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think it's pretty important that sorcerers get a bloodline for "whatever the positive (or at least neutral) side of Occult is".

Starsoul or Astral could work. Especially if they lean hard into the astrology angle.


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Bardarok wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think it's pretty important that sorcerers get a bloodline for "whatever the positive (or at least neutral) side of Occult is".
Starsoul could work. Especially if they lean hard into the astrology angle.

Harrow. "Just as knowledge of the harrow has passed from generation to generation since time immemorial, so too has a deep spiritual connection to the otherworldly forces bound by the harrow passed through the ages."


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I'm hoping each spell list will have both at least one bloodline that delves into monstrous transformations, and one that doesn't. In the playtest, the Fey and Imperial bloodlines stayed humanoid, the Celestial bloodline grew wings every now and then at mid-level, and Aberrant, Demonic, and Draconic all have a base-level ability to change their form (with tentacles, a bite attack, and a claw attack). It'd be nice to have options for occult and divine sorcerers that didn't involve overt transformation.


Also it wasn't a bloodline in PF1 but maybe a lucky bloodline. Tying in with the fortune angle of occult.

Like the oppiset of accursed. I want to say a knack sorcorrer but I don't remember if that's a real thing or something I just read in a book somewhere.


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Bardarok wrote:

Also it wasn't a bloodline in PF1 but maybe a lucky bloodline. Tying in with the fortune angle of occult.

Like the oppiset of accursed. I want to say a knack sorcorrer but I don't remember if that's a real thing or something I just read in a book somewhere.

Impossible is close.

"You can see beyond the mundane, and are capable of visualizing the improbable, and even the impossible. This ability derives from an equally unlikely source, such as the godmind of the axiomites or the monad of aeons. If this expanded perception doesn’t drive you mad, you may learn to make the impossible into reality."

There's Karmic too but that's more destiny than luck.


graystone wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Now that you’ve mentioned it, I’m curious what an Android bloodline would look like.
Use PF1 Nanite bloodline as a starting point. All it's bonus spells were wizard with crossovers to druid and alchemist. I think I'd go with arcane 1st with primal as a backup.

Was about to question how ‘Android’ Bloodline would work, but Nanite would be a good flavor for it.

As for the term ‘Bloodline’ in the OP’s original post; i don’t think it always means via lineage as there were Bloodlines in 1e that weren’t always related to a magical ancestry. Though ‘Bloodline’ is rather appropriate in the idea that the Magic comes from yourself as the conduit; ‘magic courses through your veins’ and all that.


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Bardarok wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think it's pretty important that sorcerers get a bloodline for "whatever the positive (or at least neutral) side of Occult is".

Starsoul or Astral could work. Especially if they lean hard into the astrology angle.

Those are good ideas. I was thinking something based on the Shadow Plane could work as well, at least as something less inherently sinister than aberrant.


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As I think about, its really hard to think of a word to replace bloodline that doesn't sound weird.

How about:
× A darklands themed bloodline (probably occult)
× A bloodline where a magical accident/Experiment in your family introduced some animal DNA so now you're part frog/wolf/owlbear etc. and have primal magic.
× A bloodline where your part ooze (also magical accident)


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
graystone wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Now that you’ve mentioned it, I’m curious what an Android bloodline would look like.
Use PF1 Nanite bloodline as a starting point. All it's bonus spells were wizard with crossovers to druid and alchemist. I think I'd go with arcane 1st with primal as a backup.

Was about to question how ‘Android’ Bloodline would work, but Nanite would be a good flavor for it.

Nanite was the one I meant, just to clarify, so thank you Graystone,


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I don't really get complaint re: term "bloodline", they make it clear it doesn't necessarily hinge on direct biological descent, and even when it does doesn't need to correlate to different "species" but could include some other magical influence "tagging along" a mortal line of offspring.

Anyhow, some stuff I'd look forward too:
Sphinx cuz that is too cool ancient magical heritage,
Rakshasa,
Oni (given Hobgoblins now bigger deal in Inner Sea,
Harrow,
Shadow,
Solar (or Pos/Neg Elemental),
maybe something with Cyclopes or their specific empires?
I could get behind bloodlines linked to SPECIFIC ancient magical empires, e.g. Azlanti, Tekritani, ancient Tian Xia, etc.
Unicorn is also good one,
Dreamspun and/or Leng


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

While I do get it, I can't think of a better word to use in place of "bloodline", since lore and mechanical dictate that sorcerers tap into the magic inherent in their blood.

Quandary wrote:
Solar (or Pos/Neg Elemental)

I would love to see this one, especially if some solarian powers from Starfinder snuck their way into PF2 this way.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
While I do get it, I can't think of a better word to use in place of "bloodline"

Inheritance? Source? Font of Power?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Since their "source" and "font of power" is literally their blood...


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Since their "source" and "font of power" is literally their blood...

Well it's in the blood but it's not necessarily in everyone of your bloodline. For instance, your characters brother might not be a sorcerer but have your bloodline. Or you are the first of your 'bloodline' because you are the one that had a "powerful occult ritual" done on you, hence there is no real bloodline yet. There is also the fact that literally everyone has magic in their blood as anyone could take the sorcerer class or multiclass into it so everyones blood has magic in it.

Now saying all that, I'm fine with bloodlines: I can just see that there could be times where it could be confusing


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I feel like it's reasonable for sorcerers to believe that their magic is "in their blood" (this is a thing on Golarion, c.f. Bloatmages), and from that stadard called them bloodlines.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like it's reasonable for sorcerers to believe that their magic is "in their blood" (this is a thing on Golarion, c.f. Bloatmages), and from that stadard called them bloodlines.

What I'm saying is that it can be at odds with the traditional usage of the word bloodline: IE not everyone of a bloodline has a sorcerer bloodline or even the same sorcerer bloodline, making the magical bloodline different from the actual bloodline.

Now how confusing that could be, I don't know. PF1 player aren't going to think twice about it, but it might confuse new players. Saying their magic is innate, inborn, natural, inherent, intrinsic, instinctive, intuitive, spontaneous, ect strike me as being better than 'in their blood' anyway and doesn't have to change things like the Blood Alchemist or the Bloatmage [they can draw magic from people that aren't a sorcerer with 'magic in their blood' after all].


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Im hoping the Verdant bloodline comes back around. Sometimes I feel the primal spells are kinda lacking on plant magic.


Tunu40 wrote:
Im hoping the Verdant bloodline comes back around. Sometimes I feel the primal spells are kinda lacking on plant magic.

The plant focused character is always one I seek to make in any system I look at and it is often sadly underrepresented so I too hope for a really cool plant focused sorcerer bloodline to make a return.


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I had been planning on making a Fey Sorc that took Stone and Wood Shape and all the Form spells with summon natures ally and heal as my spontaneous heighten spells. In the end I was going to ignore most of the Fey type spell so it would be nice if there was some form of primal shaper bloodline with supporting effects.


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A sorcerer bloodline focused on physically changing the world around you would be cool; a master of changing the battlefield to make cover for its allies and hazards for its foes by bending the earth around it. It would make for a good type of character like the 'God Wizard'.


Maybe I’m mixing up fantasies, weren’t certain Fey able to shape the world in the First World? Maybe one of them could be a bloodline.


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Not going to lie, was planning on having Architect or Engineer be the characters profession and role play it that he was a wandering mystic builder.

Elemental Shaper
Cant: Produce Flame, lvl1 Mending, lvl 2 shape wood, lvl 3 Wall of Thorns, Lvl 4 Shape stone, lvl 5 Wall of stone, lvl 6 Flesh to stone (the other way to get a garden gnome), lvl 7 Regenerate (not great but repairs living), lvl 8 earthquake (sometimes to build you must first destroy) (really want this to be polymorph any object), lvl9 ? Implosion (see lvl 8)

initial able to make some detail
advanced spend focus to double the area of granted spells
Greater spend focus to create high detail

Works really well as a gnome actually so maybe the garden gnome joke was in poor taste (maybe its a statuary graveyard?)


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Mellok wrote:

lvl 6 Flesh to stone (the other way to get a garden gnome)

If anyone ever runs a campaign where the villain is literally making garden gnomes I am 1000% in.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Some Kind of Chymist wrote:
Mellok wrote:

lvl 6 Flesh to stone (the other way to get a garden gnome)

If anyone ever runs a campaign where the villain is literally making garden gnomes I am 1000% in.

Like a Medusa (with shape stone) maybe?


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Do we have the full details of any bloodline other than undead yet? (which is divine this time around; clerics always where great necromancers).

Or at least partial details on any bloodlines?

And on that note; do we have a place where ALL the spoilers around character options are in one spot? We have one for the banquest spoilers, one for general paizocon spoilers, on for UK Games Expo spoilers all of which are super great but I'm looking for that 1 google doc/thread/other to obsessively refresh in the hope of new character option spoilers when I'm avoding university.


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The Engineer stuff makes me think of an Inevitable Bloodline, with affinities for Animated Machines / Clockworks / Golems. For me personally, I don't really like the overtly high-tech sci-fi stuff intruding in high fantasy, but lower-tech more grounded in arcano-medeival world works just fine for me. I believe in Molthune there is entire city that was built/run by animated machines, and Clockwork is AFAIK a big thing in Tian Xia (and I would think, Kelesh). I remember a new animated chest-of-drawers being a thing in 2E, that shows great promise for this type of thing even at low levels.


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graystone wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
While I do get it, I can't think of a better word to use in place of "bloodline"
Inheritance? Source? Font of Power?

I appreciated "Legacy" à la Legacy of Dragons

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Number 1 bloodline I felt was missing in the playtest was Elemental. It would be a great primal option, and it could potentially fill the "kineticist" niche in 2e (as could a druid order). An occult Hag bloodline could be 2e's witch, though a prepared occult class might be better for that.

I like the idea of Shadow and Harrow for occult options. A Verdant primal bloodline that would be nice given fey and (hopefully) elemental covering other nature-bases. Undead would likely be another divine, which could mean 4 on the same list. Hopefully there's an even spread of spell lists, but 16 bloodlines sounds like a lot.


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In the Know Direction it was revealed the additional effect of casting spells granted by the Fey bloodline, every time that you cast the spell/focus spell the Sorcerer or the target of the spell (your choice) get concealed. Really powerful.


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Pinstripedbarbarian wrote:

Number 1 bloodline I felt was missing in the playtest was Elemental. It would be a great primal option, and it could potentially fill the "kineticist" niche in 2e (as could a druid order). An occult Hag bloodline could be 2e's witch, though a prepared occult class might be better for that.

I like the idea of Shadow and Harrow for occult options. A Verdant primal bloodline that would be nice given fey and (hopefully) elemental covering other nature-bases. Undead would likely be another divine, which could mean 4 on the same list. Hopefully there's an even spread of spell lists, but 16 bloodlines sounds like a lot.

IIRC hags were arcane casters in the playtest bestiary, so I'd assume they will be an arcane bloodline, as much as occult would make sense.


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Kyrone wrote:
In the Know Direction it was revealed the additional effect of casting spells granted by the Fey bloodline, every time that you cast the spell/focus spell the Sorcerer or the target of the spell (your choice) get concealed. Really powerful.

Yeah, assuming these are useful spells to cast in combat that's much better damage mitigation than the poorly scaling Undead bloodline option.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
IIRC hags were arcane casters in the playtest bestiary, so I'd assume they will be an arcane bloodline, as much as occult would make sense.

Ah well, I'm a little sad to hear it but thanks for the info. I'd love for classic monsters to really carve their niches into the "new" spell lists to give things more identity. Witches being occult seems to make sense for a lot of people, so Hags following suit would be great.


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Pinstripedbarbarian wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
IIRC hags were arcane casters in the playtest bestiary, so I'd assume they will be an arcane bloodline, as much as occult would make sense.
Ah well, I'm a little sad to hear it but thanks for the info. I'd love for classic monsters to really carve their niches into the "new" spell lists to give things more identity. Witches being occult seems to make sense for a lot of people, so Hags following suit would be great.

I mean, they could have always changed it from the playtest. It would make sense.


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I could be wrong, but listening to the glass cannon second edition podcast that came out today (the session they did at paizocon), it seems that Grant's sorcerer was an elemental themed sorcerer. Unless he was getting terminology wrong, or I am. He was saying things like he was using his bloodline spells to do fireball and hydraulic push and things like that.


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Pinstripedbarbarian wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
IIRC hags were arcane casters in the playtest bestiary, so I'd assume they will be an arcane bloodline, as much as occult would make sense.
Ah well, I'm a little sad to hear it but thanks for the info. I'd love for classic monsters to really carve their niches into the "new" spell lists to give things more identity. Witches being occult seems to make sense for a lot of people, so Hags following suit would be great.

I agree. It would be nice to account for occult being available on Day 1. On the other hand, in the "why is bard occult" thread, Mark Seifter said: Fey are tricky! It's slightly different metaphysically, but Mechagamera was right on the money that fey were "cheating" and doing weird things with their magic, hacking the essences they have rather than using mental/vital combo, but very similar.

Maybe Hags are good at hacking too....

Liberty's Edge

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I really hope Hags are Occult, that'd be super neat. It's also quite possible, given that Occult is a tad underrepresented in the playtest bestiary.


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I suppose monsters have never been especially constrained by spell lists anyway. Demons cast fireball divinely, lamias cast cure serious wounds arcanely. A hag could use arcane spells but the bloodline might wind up occult, as spell lists are more relevant to people built with class levels.

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