Friends In High Places

In my opinion, if you want to play a worshiper of a huge number of deities, it'd be better to play anything BUT a cleric. Any class can be religous, after all. And if you want to do one of these and still be a divine caster, the best thematic choice (again, in my opinion) at this point is a divine tradition sorcerer. Later in the year, you can add oracle to that list, of course.

Clerics work best, thematically, when they serve one deity. And to me, that means that the smaller the pantheon is, the tighter their theme will be, and the less awkward it'll be to play that cleric.

You COULD do a cleric who worships a pantheon of a thousand, but to me, that dilutes and "genericizes" the best parts of playing a cleric. It's like playing a fighter who doesn't have a favorite type of weapon, or playing a sorcerer who doesn't do anything with their bloodline, or playing a bard who doesn't have a thematic type of performance picked out, or playing a druid who picks a different type of animal companion every day. By trying to do everything, you don't really build up your own "brand."

Out of curiosity, how do you (or other Paizo GMs) handle pantheons within cultures? Certain areas of the setting state, or at least strongly imply, that the worship of evil deities is proscribed. So, if a society's pantheon is the "Core 20", how does that work for the average follower (non-cleric/priest)?

I'm sold on the pantheon concept and have been working to incorporate them into my game in a more prominent way, so I'm thrilled Gods & Magic will have rules to support it. I'm just stumbling a bit at how to depict it in a setting where good/evil/law/chaos are tangible forces.

I am curious how pantheon rules interact with spells like Divine Lance.

The simplest idea would be that the spells would key off of the patron deity. When you are building your pantheon, just make sure there is one non-TN deity in the group, so that one can be the patron.

I imagine that is how the final oracle will work too: you worship fire or battle or whatnot, pick a god with that in the portfolio as the patron deity for purposes of spells that require a deity. You are an oracle, not a cleric or paladin, so you can ignore the anathemas associated with that god (unless you want to be bound by them).

James Jacobs wrote:

In my opinion, if you want to play a worshiper of a huge number of deities, it'd be better to play anything BUT a cleric. Any class can be religous, after all. And if you want to do one of these and still be a divine caster, the best thematic choice (again, in my opinion) at this point is a divine tradition sorcerer. Later in the year, you can add oracle to that list, of course.

Clerics work best, thematically, when they serve one deity. And to me, that means that the smaller the pantheon is, the tighter their theme will be, and the less awkward it'll be to play that cleric.

You COULD do a cleric who worships a pantheon of a thousand, but to me, that dilutes and "genericizes" the best parts of playing a cleric. It's like playing a fighter who doesn't have a favorite type of weapon, or playing a sorcerer who doesn't do anything with their bloodline, or playing a bard who doesn't have a thematic type of performance picked out, or playing a druid who picks a different type of animal companion every day. By trying to do everything, you don't really build up your own "brand."

Out of curiosity, how do you (or other Paizo GMs) handle pantheons within cultures? Certain areas of the setting state, or at least strongly imply, that the worship of evil deities is proscribed. So, if a society's pantheon is the "Core 20", how does that work for the average follower (non-cleric/priest)?

I'm sold on the pantheon concept and have been working to incorporate them into my game in a more prominent way, so I'm thrilled Gods & Magic will have rules to support it. I'm just stumbling a bit at how to depict it in a setting where good/evil/law/chaos are tangible forces.

I would say the "Core20" grouping is an artificial, Out of Game one. Not representative of any in world grouping. Each regions basically have their own "mini" pantheons. In fact, we could almost say it's by city at this point. Breachills in AoA have Cayden, Desna, Shelyn as major gods. Sandpoint is Desna, Abadar, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Gozreh, and Erastil. Cheliax make the worship of Desna illegal, and IF we would make a pantheon for them, I'd mainly include Abadar, Asmodeus, Erastil, Iomedae, and Zon-Kuthon, all loyal gods.

Absalom might be the closest to one where a pantheon of their gods would be weird, but even there it could still work, and it's not the full Core20. (But they still have 9 of them! Norgorber, Cayden Cailean, Iomedae, Abadar, Nethys, Sarenrae, Calistria, Irori and Shelyn. That pantheon would probably end TN. Aroden would also be included in it, but he doesn't grant spell anymore, so I don't count him as an available patron!)
So yeah, If I was really incorporating Pantheons as an integral part of the setting, I'd make a pantheon by regions, based on the most important part of the lives of people in that region. The whole of Cheliax is Law. (But then they could have the Bellflower Network worshiping an underground Pantheon of Desna and other chaotic deities.) Breachills would be a pantheon of adventurer gods. Most small towns would probably have Erastil, Gozreh if they have some fishing too.
I know the question was not directed at me, but I felt inspired. :3

TL;DR: I see pantheons as things that grow organically within the societies, so they would need to fit with the region or group way of life. Most pantheons basically make themselves if you have a well developed setting.

Core 20 was just an easy example. The question is, how would - in game/in setting - are pantheons that include good, neutral, and - more problematically - evil deities treated by the average follower in a given culture?

The Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc. all had pantheons that wouldn't neatly align to a "good pantheon" or "neutral pantheon". Pathfinder assigns alignments to deities. So how best to draw from mythology for inspiration and implement it in a satisfying manner in-game?

Small, similarly themed and aligned pantheons are easy to represent and understand. I'm specifically inquiring about the larger, more morally complex type.

Small, similarly themed and aligned pantheons are easy to represent and understand. I'm specifically inquiring about the larger, more morally complex type.

While someone may turn to gods, even evil gods, when dealing with things in their purview ("Help me with my legal troubles, Asmodeus!"), no one worships all gods equally, and certainly no one is empowered this way because the whole of the gods are antithetical to the each other.

So, while ancient Osirians might recognize the existence of all their gods, there were no priests of all the gods. There might however, be as Luis demonstrates, a priest of all the magic gods.

Yet, just because the kind of pantheon that can empower a cleric must have an unambiguous thesis, that doesn't mean they are without nuance. The Godclaw deities are all lawful, but run the gamut from good to evil. The lawful good dwarven pantheon includes an evil deity, but he's the black sheep of the family that no one talks about.

I am so looking forwards to doing this with my own deities, so much here that looks fun.

While someone may turn to gods, even evil gods, when dealing with things in their purview ("Help me with my legal troubles, Asmodeus!"), no one worships all gods equally, and certainly no one is empowered this way because the whole of the gods are antithetical to the each other.

So, while ancient Osirians might recognize the existence of all their gods, there were no priests of all the gods. There might however, be as Luis demonstrates, a priest of all the magic gods.

Yet, just because the kind of pantheon that can empower a cleric must have an unambiguous thesis, that doesn't mean they are without nuance. The Godclaw deities are all lawful, but run the gamut from good to evil. The lawful good dwarven pantheon includes an evil deity, but he's the black sheep of the family that no one talks about.

I'm not interested in pantheon priests, clerics, etc. My question is a world-building one. To use your example, how are larger pantheons that include evil deities handled in Golarion? If Asmodeus is proscribed/banned elsewhere that would imply that a cleric and followers of Asmodeus has to operate in secret. There are plenty of cultists in Paizo adventures, after all.

If Asmosdeus is part of the culture's pantheon, I would suspect that it may be easier for that cleric to operate openly. Are evil deities only placated, are pantheon worshippers seeking to avoid the notice of the evil deities, or does 'the Devil get his due' with active worship? How are the services/practices/sacrifices of evil deities modified so they can be included in the cultural pantheon? Or does the culture turn a blind eye because the god is part of the pantheon?

I think that there's a fascinating amount of story potential to be mined there and it's another tool for differentiating nations, cultures, and settlements.

David Schwartz wrote:

While someone may turn to gods, even evil gods, when dealing with things in their purview ("Help me with my legal troubles, Asmodeus!"), no one worships all gods equally, and certainly no one is empowered this way because the whole of the gods are antithetical to the each other.

So, while ancient Osirians might recognize the existence of all their gods, there were no priests of all the gods. There might however, be as Luis demonstrates, a priest of all the magic gods.

Yet, just because the kind of pantheon that can empower a cleric must have an unambiguous thesis, that doesn't mean they are without nuance. The Godclaw deities are all lawful, but run the gamut from good to evil. The lawful good dwarven pantheon includes an evil deity, but he's the black sheep of the family that no one talks about.

I'm not interested in pantheon priests, clerics, etc. My question is a world-building one. To use your example, how are larger pantheons that include evil deities handled in Golarion? If Asmodeus is proscribed/banned elsewhere that would imply that a cleric and followers of Asmodeus has to operate in secret. There are plenty of cultists in Paizo adventures, after all.

If Asmosdeus is part of the culture's pantheon, I would suspect that it may be easier for that cleric to operate openly. Are evil deities only placated, are pantheon worshippers seeking to avoid the notice of the evil deities, or does 'the Devil get his due' with active worship? How are the services/practices/sacrifices of evil deities modified so they can be included in the cultural pantheon? Or does the culture turn a blind eye because the god is part of the pantheon?

I think that there's a fascinating amount of story potential to be mined there and it's another tool for differentiating nations, cultures, and settlements.

The Godclaw is an excellent and existing example of how we handle this in Golarion—in particular, this one includes both Asmodeus and Iomedae.

It looks like Abadar is the central figure in the Godclaw pantheon, as he is the only deity who is allied with all of the rest.

David Schwartz wrote:

While someone may turn to gods, even evil gods, when dealing with things in their purview ("Help me with my legal troubles, Asmodeus!"), no one worships all gods equally, and certainly no one is empowered this way because the whole of the gods are antithetical to the each other.

So, while ancient Osirians might recognize the existence of all their gods, there were no priests of all the gods. There might however, be as Luis demonstrates, a priest of all the magic gods.

Yet, just because the kind of pantheon that can empower a cleric must have an unambiguous thesis, that doesn't mean they are without nuance. The Godclaw deities are all lawful, but run the gamut from good to evil. The lawful good dwarven pantheon includes an evil deity, but he's the black sheep of the family that no one talks about.

I'm not interested in pantheon priests, clerics, etc. My question is a world-building one. To use your example, how are larger pantheons that include evil deities handled in Golarion? If Asmodeus is proscribed/banned elsewhere that would imply that a cleric and followers of Asmodeus has to operate in secret. There are plenty of cultists in Paizo adventures, after all.

If Asmosdeus is part of the culture's pantheon, I would suspect that it may be easier for that cleric to operate openly. Are evil deities only placated, are pantheon worshippers seeking to avoid the notice of the evil deities, or does 'the Devil get his due' with active worship? How are the services/practices/sacrifices of evil deities modified so they can be included in the cultural pantheon? Or does the culture turn a blind eye because the god is part of the pantheon?

I think that there's a fascinating amount of story potential to be mined there and it's another tool for differentiating nations, cultures, and settlements.

I would look at the Godclaw to see how alignment differences are handled. Iomedae is Lawful Good and Asmodeus is Lawful Evil. Seeing how that discrepancy is handled there should inform any homebrew creation.

The larger the pantheon, the more difficult it would be to create solid rules for worship, though. Which makes sense: each god is going to require something different from their followers and the larger the number the more conflicts will arise.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Is one of the Pantheons the Gods who passed the Test of the Starstone? Since the death of Aroden it seems a likely candidate for worship for what's left of his faithful.

Is one of the Pantheons the Gods who passed the Test of the Starstone? Since the death of Aroden it seems a likely candidate for worship for what's left of his faithful.

They moved on to Iomedae and Milani and Abadar.

The Godclaw is an excellent and existing example of how we handle this in Golarion—in particular, this one includes both Asmodeus and Iomedae.

I'm only familiar with the Godclaw from its Hellknight order, but I'll check it out once the PDF is up for sale. Thanks!

I would look at the Godclaw to see how alignment differences are handled. Iomedae is Lawful Good and Asmodeus is Lawful Evil. Seeing...

Yeah, it seems that the Godclaw will be my guidepost. I'll be interested to see the write-up but on the surface I think it skirts the issue. The Godclaw likely has relevance where evil deities aren't facing the cultural issues I was asking about, such as in Cheliax. I would expect that the Godclaw would get no support/concessions in a place like Andoran. I suspect that there are at least a few neutral or neutral-leaning nations that might allow the Godclaw but not independent Asmodean churches/temples but I'll have to wait to see if that's part of the Godclaw entry. Here's hoping.

Ninja'd or not, thanks for the suggestion.

*Praying to the Paizo Shipping Gods* Please ship tomorrow! My Excitement is about to explode!

Ok. I will bite:

Abadar (for trade & travel)
Desna (for travel & luck)
Alseta (for portals & teleportation)
Hanspur (in case a touch of smuggling can help)

and...

Cosmo (because...)

(well... Cosmo)

I asked about creating a circus oriented pantheon in last Friday's Twitch stream, and Luis suggested the name "The Big Top" for it. Suggested deities: Kurgess, Shelyn, & Desna, possibly Gozreh for animals.

When the rules are out and I can see the full list of deities, I'm setting this one up!

And I have done it!

:)

All right, working on my “Core 20” pantheon Cleric. He walks around with an armful of parchment spreadsheets full of edicts and anathemas, and takes half an hour to make any decision.

So you're making Chidi from The Good Place?

Polytheism seems to better represent the world of Golarion (as well as most of human civilization on Earth), so having pantheons like this makes a lot of sense. Not to mention how wonderfully flavorful this is! I love it.