Witch Playtest Expectations and Hopes


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

What are you hoping for with the Witch 2E version?

Theories, Hopes, Expectations???

Lets hear them!!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

What are yours?


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I am assuming the witch will be the prepared version of the sorcerer: your patron might be, for example, a dragon (arcane), a devil (divine), an archfey (primal), or a GOO (occult). The hexes will be the focus spells. Int caster, which will also solve "it isn't right that my wizard can't summon a demon", since a witch/wizard multiclass should be a good combo.

Scarab Sages

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I hope hexes are either not spells at all, or cantrips that give more slots, or a combination. The hexes were the big draw for me, and them not being spells was awesome in 1e. The idea of a Fighter MC Witch who just learned how to give a good stink eye (evil eye) really appeals to me.


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Initial hopes were that a PF2 witch would have very robust patrons that offer a lot of customization and meaningfully change the feel of the character like Oracle mysteries in PF1 did.

But given how the Wizard and Sorcerer turned out, I'm not so sure. Expectation at this point is that they're just prepared sorcerers with Hexes filling the same niche as a Bard's composition cantrips and focus spells.


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Hexes will be focus spells and witches will have the Occult Spell list.

Not sure what else I expect but that's the basics.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hexes hexes hexes hexes.

All day hexes.

Hexes that use focus points.

Hexes that are cantrips.

Hexes that take one, two, three actions.

Hexes from class features.

Hexes from class feats.

Hexes that are metamagic enhancers.

I'll report back if I think of more hex stuff.


I suspect, that you might get a couple of hex cantrips, btut hey're going to be on the weaker side of things (whatever weak might mean in terms of debuff, not sure in PF2 yet).

But generally unlimited use strong hexes are probably gone. We probably wont see misfortune, at least not like it was in PF1. Maybe a misfortune hex that lasts one round and gives a -1 penalty to attacks, or saves, or skills could be an all day thing that exists (as a cantrip).

But based on the state of buffing and debuffing as they are now...I just think the class is going to feel very different from what it did in PF1.


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Claxon wrote:

I suspect, that you might get a couple of hex cantrips, btut hey're going to be on the weaker side of things (whatever weak might mean in terms of debuff, not sure in PF2 yet).

But generally unlimited use strong hexes are probably gone. We probably wont see misfortune, at least not like it was in PF1. Maybe a misfortune hex that lasts one round and gives a -1 penalty to attacks, or saves, or skills could be an all day thing that exists (as a cantrip).

But based on the state of buffing and debuffing as they are now...I just think the class is going to feel very different from what it did in PF1.

sshhhhhhhhhh

Let me dream.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Rycke wrote:
What are yours?

Currant Theory

Witch will function similar to the Bard.

Int/Cha
Paton/Muse
Hexes/Compositions

Still guessing on the Familiars.


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Prince Setehrael wrote:
Rycke wrote:
What are yours?

Currant Theory

Witch will function similar to the Bard.

Int/Cha
Paton/Muse
Hexes/Compositions

Still guessing on the Familiars.

I expect most likely an Occult Prepared spellcaster.

Patron adds flavor and choices to their spell list. This may be somewhat like a cleric's domains. Potentially opening up Patron specific Focus spells, although some might be generic ones open to all witches.

I think some former Hexes will be cantrips. Some might impact an individual only once a day/hour, but otherwise can be spammed by spending the actions.

I think other things that were Hexes may become focus spells available to the witches.

There might be a Cackle cantrip that allows the effect of certain focus spells to be extended for the duration that the cantrip continues to be case.

Witches will have familiars, which will normally be animals and somehow is the focus of their bond to their Patron, and gives them their spells. However, I think it might be possible that some witches might have a physical 'familiar' that would be an Item instead.


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I’m thinking the Witch will be a blend of the Sorcerer and the Bard, but with Intelligence as their casting stat and they are prepared casters, not spontaneous ones.

I would assume there will be a number of patrons that may change the spell list you use or that heavily pull from lists other than the occult one (which I assume would be the “default” list).

There probably will be different foci—hexes, your familiar, spellcasting/rituals.

Hexes would be akin to composition cantrips (except more debuffing) with some stronger hexes and the utility hexes being focus powers.


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Prince Setehrael wrote:

What are you hoping for with the Witch 2E version?

Theories, Hopes, Expectations???

Lets hear them!!

Witches will be prepared Occult casters, because there are none in the game yet and the Occult spell list feels like it's aiming for that witchy vibe in places (plus a Hag bloodline gives Occult spells to a Sorcerer, so...).

Hexes will be focus spells because the focus spell approach is the design space that sort of thing lives in (Champion magic? Monk ki powers? Bardic performances? Focus spells! So Hexes will be much the same).

Patrons will add spells to the list, and might come with edicts and anathema, since they were meant to be more of a thing than they were in PF1.

Familiars (which are quite rules-light at present) might get a bit more fleshing-out, but Paizo seems happy with familiars as they are, and at most, I'd think that witches would just add some specific options to their familiar powers list.


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My guess is prepared occult caster, or (and this is a shot in the dark) they have a focus point centric spellcasting system.


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Hopes:

  • Prepared Switch Caster based on Patron. While Occult tradition works for some Witch concepts - it doesn't really fit things like a witch who communes with nature/fey (Primal) or is tricked into witchcraft by a Devil (Divine), which are things I really want to be able to express.
  • More mechanical/thematic relevance for Patrons. Despite being one of the coolest thematic class features in PF1 (in my opinion) - Patrons being nothing more than a single word description + set of spells didn't make for a very exciting feature. I've always wanted them to have a bit more impact on the Character & hope this is a chance for paizo to do exactly that.
  • Hexes in some format. While the swiss-army knife utility of Evil Eye made it my favorite hex in PF1, I'm actually not too particular how they turn out in PF2. Expecting they end up like cantrips (similar to bard), but could also see some focus power as well. I just hope it's not all focus powers, since that'd feel really limited as a result.
  • Familiars being more closely tied to Patrons, including the ability for some Patrons using items/objects rather than a traditional animal familiar.


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    I would hope they lower the dependency on the familiar.

    Or make it far more resilient.


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    I am thinking a prepared occult spellcaster, with hexes as focus powers and maybe feats that help them with casting rituals.

    I would love to see a bunch of the old witch spells return as part of the occult spell list - what initially drew me to the witch as a class in first edition was the weird, creepy spells they had on their spell list, stuff like beguiling gift, lipstitch, skinsend and vomit swarm in particular where my favorites.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    I am loving everyone's ideas for the witch. These are really cool. And they all seem like a possibility.

    Just a few more weeks till we get to see what we start out with.

    Long Live The WITCH!!!!!


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    A thought I just had and am now even more excited to see. Though it will be a while before we see, cause we would need the mythic system.

    But a 2E stated Baba Yaga!!!


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    I would REALLY like them to be the prepared any-caster, and not the prepared occult (although I think most patrons will be occult aligned). I too think hexes will be a mix of unique cantrips and Focus spells, and I'm pretty sure they'll have unique familiar abilities. I'm very excited to playtest it, because I've had a few witches at my table, but never played it myself, and I'm quite remiss I never got the opportunity.


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    Prince Setehrael wrote:

    A thought I just had and am now even more excited to see. Though it will be a while before we see, cause we would need the mythic system.

    But a 2E stated Baba Yaga!!!

    I vaguely recall the devs saying somewhere that they are considering making the patrons a bit more "rooted in the world", tying them to specific entities rather than vague concepts.

    Incidentally, Baba Yaga was the given example.

    On one hand, I personally imagine that the witch will have an occult baseline spell list, but with patrons granting access to spells from other lists (and making them count as occult)...But on the other hand, I really like sorcerer's tradition-determined-by-bloodline shtick, and the witch would seem like the perfect opportunity to allow for that as well.

    Either way, you will probably be able to make a prepared occult caster with the witch - it's just a matter of whether that'll be the only option or one among many.

    For hexes (which for irrational personal reasons I would personally want to see changed into something like "charms", if only to reduce the "vaguely evil" connotations of the class), it's very likely they'll be some form of focus spell - what exactly, that I don't know, but I'll be happy with almost anything, really.

    Also! I hope we get to see a sketch of Feiya in the APG playtest document (alongside the other 3 iconics, but this is a witch thread), and what her revisited design is like.


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    I like the idea of them being more setting rooted. PF1 called them patrons, but they were really just a word that grouped together bonus spells along vaguely thematic lines and there was no real connection between what you picked and what your witch represented.

    So I'm really excited at the prospect of them being more meaningful.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    RiverMesa wrote:
    Prince Setehrael wrote:

    A thought I just had and am now even more excited to see. Though it will be a while before we see, cause we would need the mythic system.

    But a 2E stated Baba Yaga!!!

    I vaguely recall the devs saying somewhere that they are considering making the patrons a bit more "rooted in the world", tying them to specific entities rather than vague concepts.

    Incidentally, Baba Yaga was the given example.

    On one hand, I personally imagine that the witch will have an occult baseline spell list, but with patrons granting access to spells from other lists (and making them count as occult)...But on the other hand, I really like sorcerer's tradition-determined-by-bloodline shtick, and the witch would seem like the perfect opportunity to allow for that as well.

    Either way, you will probably be able to make a prepared occult caster with the witch - it's just a matter of whether that'll be the only option or one among many.

    For hexes (which for irrational personal reasons I would personally want to see changed into something like "charms", if only to reduce the "vaguely evil" connotations of the class), it's very likely they'll be some form of focus spell - what exactly, that I don't know, but I'll be happy with almost anything, really.

    Also! I hope we get to see a sketch of Feiya in the APG playtest document (alongside the other 3 iconics, but this is a witch thread), and what her revisited design is like.

    I am also very excited to see the new Feiya Art.


    Squiggit wrote:

    I like the idea of them being more setting rooted. PF1 called them patrons, but they were really just a word that grouped together bonus spells along vaguely thematic lines and there was no real connection between what you picked and what your witch represented.

    So I'm really excited at the prospect of them being more meaningful.

    I'd be kind of happy to see witches be more like Clerics but without the divine spell list and not tied only to deities. But I think they should have anathema and certain restrictions.

    It always seemed kind of hollow that your patron really didn't affect you at all.


    Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
    Claxon wrote:
    It always seemed kind of hollow that your patron really didn't affect you at all.

    It seems to me that a witch's patron should expect certain things of the witch, and if the witch doesn't provide those things (not worship, that's the gods' prerogative) the patron would withdraw patronage. What, exactly, that should mean I'm not sure, but it should not be just a repeat of the cleric's relation to his or her deity.


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    I expect cackle to work with the Sustain a Spell action and a hex trait on cantrips, allowing you to sustain multiple debuffs with one action.

    I expect witch to be a prepared Occult caster who draws from the other lists through patron, like cleric.

    I expect familiar to still act as the witch's spellbook, with the witch probably getting an improved familiar with extra familiar choices.

    I think the change from individual spell lists to four total spell lists will change things drastically. We'll have bards and sorcerers casting spells that used to be witch only, and vice versa.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    I think that the Patrons will be similar to the Unique Patrons from Blood of the Coven.

    https://aonprd.com/UniquePatrons.aspx

    Sovereign Court

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    Expectations:

    - Patrons will be a big deal. Which patron you have will determine more about which powers you get than in PF1, kinda like a PF1 shaman maybe. Some of your hexes will depend on your choice of patron.

    - Patrons are going to have anathemas, kinda like barbarian instincts also have anathemas. It's not just for divine casters anymore.

    - Hexes are probably going to be a bit like compositions

    - Cackling might work a bit like Dragon Roar in that you prevent enemies from ticking down a condition that normally ticks down every round.

    - Use of the Incapacitation trait to avoid PF1 slumber/ice tomb situations where bosses get one-shot before they can do anything.

    - Now that undead (and some other creature types) have far fewer immunities, there should be less of those annoying "yeah I know I've been boringly spamming the same hex all session, but the monsters are immune to everything else".

    - Witches will probably use the "spooky" occult spell list as a main, but patrons let you dip a bit into the other lists, like a healing patron (some divine spells) or an elemental patron (primal).


    Ed Reppert wrote:
    Claxon wrote:
    It always seemed kind of hollow that your patron really didn't affect you at all.
    It seems to me that a witch's patron should expect certain things of the witch, and if the witch doesn't provide those things (not worship, that's the gods' prerogative) the patron would withdraw patronage. What, exactly, that should mean I'm not sure, but it should not be just a repeat of the cleric's relation to his or her deity.

    I agree it shouldn't be a repeat, but it should probably have some similarities.

    If my post implied "repeat" to you that was not my intention.


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    RiverMesa wrote:
    But on the other hand, I really like sorcerer's tradition-determined-by-bloodline shtick, and the witch would seem like the perfect opportunity to allow for that as well.

    I'm actually not super-fond of that. It's a neat idea, but I don't think it works out all that well in practice.

    The main issue is that the traditions are not balanced on their own. The divine list is built for clerics, the primal list for druids, the arcane list for wizards, and the occult list for bards.

    The most glaring problem is the divine sorcerer. They are pretty short on ranged attack spells (basically only daze, which deals pitiful damage, and divine lance which requires a deity and is limited in its use). That's fine for a cleric, particularly a war priest that's trained in decent weapons and armor and has 8 hp/level, but not as good for a sorcerer without armor, only simple weapons, and 6 hp/level. Also, many of the divine spells require that you worship a deity, which is unfortunate since one of the draws of the divine sorcerer is being able to cast divine spells without that baggage.


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    Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    Put me in the camp of Prepared Occult caster, with choice of patron adding non-Occult spells into the mix. Elements Patron for Fireball, Healing Patron for Heal, that sort of stuff. Hexes are either Cantrips or Focus Spells, ala Compositions.
    I know some people are in for the Prepared Pick-A-List, but I don't think that's the Witch. You know what I think that should be?
    The Arcanist.
    Hear me out on this one: Much like Paladin is now what you call the LG Champion, the Arcanist is what you call the Prepared Pick-A-List that picked the Arcane list.

    Silver Crusade

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    Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    I'm also for prepared Occult, with patrons adding spells from other lists.

    Otherwise Pick-Arcane-Witch steps on Wizards toes and pick-Divine-Witch steps on Clerics toes too much. Plus occult is very thematic for them.


    Staffan Johansson wrote:


    The most glaring problem is the divine sorcerer.

    Generally speaking I think divine sorcerer is the only one that's a big problem. Arcane, primal and occult sorcerers all work really well.

    But the Divine list was clearly built with favored weapons and divine font in mind and sorcerers flounder by not having that backbone.

    Doesn't help that Divine has some of the worst initial focus spells, either.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    Ascalaphus wrote:

    Expectations:

    - Patrons will be a big deal. Which patron you have will determine more about which powers you get than in PF1, kinda like a PF1 shaman maybe. Some of your hexes will depend on your choice of patron.

    - Patrons are going to have anathemas, kinda like barbarian instincts also have anathemas. It's not just for divine casters anymore.

    - Hexes are probably going to be a bit like compositions

    - Cackling might work a bit like Dragon Roar in that you prevent enemies from ticking down a condition that normally ticks down every round.

    - Use of the Incapacitation trait to avoid PF1 slumber/ice tomb situations where bosses get one-shot before they can do anything.

    - Now that undead (and some other creature types) have far fewer immunities, there should be less of those annoying "yeah I know I've been boringly spamming the same hex all session, but the monsters are immune to everything else".

    OK I really Like this!!!!!

    - Witches will probably use the "spooky" occult spell list as a main, but patrons let you dip a bit into the other lists, like a healing patron (some divine spells) or an elemental patron (primal).


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    I really like that idea.

    Liberty's Edge

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    Base Class - Witch

    INITIAL PROFICIENCIES
    At 1st level, you gain the listed proficiency ranks in the following statistics. You are untrained in anything not listed unless you gain a better proficiency rank in some other way.

    PERCEPTION
    Trained in Perception

    SAVING THROWS
    Expert in Will
    Trained in Reflex
    Trained in Fortitude

    SKILLS
    Trained in Crafting
    Trained in Occult
    Trained in a number of additional skills equal to 3 plus your intelligence modifier

    ATTACKS
    Trained in simple weapons
    Trained in unarmed attacks

    DEFENSES
    Trained in unarmored defense

    CLASS DC
    Trained in Witch class DC

    ----------------
    Your Level: Class Features
    1: Ancestry and background, initial proficiencies, occult spellcasting, patron, hex, familiar
    2: Witch feat, skill feat
    3: 2nd-level spells, general feat, skill increase, hex
    4: Witch feat, skill feat, lightning reflexes
    5: 3rd-level spells, ability boosts, ancestry feat, skill increase, hex

    etc...

    By default, all witches use the Occult Spellcasting Tradition and use their familiar as their spellbook, much like they did in PF1. I'd like to see a divergence here for witches however whereby their Paton selection can and WILL literally grant then a whole new tradition of spellcasting to choose spells and hexes from.

    Hexes are literally just rider effects, each tagged with 2 of the 4 spellcasting traditions so that there is some variability in what a given Witch can and cannot take for hexes based on their patron. Make it that hexes can be used at-will to add a rider effect to any Cantrip the Witch has prepared and can cast on a valid target. (Example: Fortune Hex as a Rider effect on a Message Cantrip-+1 Circumstance bonus on their next Attack, Skill, or Save Check before the end of the Witches next turn) Allow a Witch to add a hex to any higher-level spell they cast once per Round by spending 1 Focus Point.


    As Witches were the sort-of equivalents of Druids to Clerics divine differences with Wizards arcane, I think Occult is the most likely, seconded by the choose-a-tradition prepared caster idea...


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    I don't like choose a tradition for the witch. It should stay a feature of the sorcerer.

    Otherwise you could also argue that the oracle should get different traditions based on it's mystery. There's plenty of mysteries in PF1 that I'd call Primal or Occult.

    Prepared (int-based) Occult caster with access to spells from other traditions via Patron choice works just fine for me. And I agree that Hexes will most likely be Cantrips and Focus spells. I could easily see all witches starting with evil eye as a cantrip, probably as a minor debuff (-1 to attacks or AC or skills or saves for one round). It could allow a will save if cast as one action and no save if cast as two or something like that.

    More powerful hexes like slumber, misfortune or healing hex could be available as focus powers via class feats.


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    Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    I would agree that "pick a tradition" doesn't exactly fit the PF1 version of the witch whose hallmark was the weird spell list that they had to work around. I think Occult fits that particular list pretty well.

    Getting bonus spells from Patrons will do a lot to keep Patrons relevant, and give the witch distinct flavor.


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    Prepared int-based occult caster, using your familiar as a spellbook. Hexes will work like bard compositions. Some of them are cantrips, some of them are focus powers, and some of them are rider effects on other hexes or class spells. You get 1 focus hex spell and 1 hex cantrip at level 1 depending on what patron you choose, and you can get more hexes from your patron's list through witch class feats.

    Patrons would also grant a bonus spell known for each spell level, often taken out of other tradition's lists, and would impose anathema. I'm wondering if patron choice would limit (or at least inform) your familiar choices too.


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    I can see at least some of the hexes being rituals with some having smaller than 1 day cast time.
    For example: I can see Witch's Hut as a 1 day ritual to animate a house/tent for a week (or some value).
    Or a short ritual to get the benefit of augury (divination at a higher level).

    I agree the Witch doesn't fit a "pick your spell list" class and patrons giving spell is exactly what it did before. Where I can see patrons improving is taking a cue from Sorcerer, Oracle, and Shaman and getting patron themed hexes.

    The best example being Winter Witch, having Baba Yaga as a patron and getting lots of the ice/cold theme hexes of the archetype/prestige class or maybe even new hexes.


    Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    I can see the logic of picking a spell list via patron, but its not what I'd prefer. We'll see what they come up with soon enough.


    The biggest issue I see with giving the witch patron-dependent spell traditions is that it would make witches overlap too much with other spellcasters in terms of lore.

    Arcane magic is supposed to be rational, following whatever the Golarion equivalent of the scientific method might be. Witchcraft should be quite the opposite, if the 1e witch's lore is anything to go by. Additionally, if a witch is taught by a patron to cast spells using memorization, formulas, and logic (the hallmarks of arcane learning), what makes him...not a wizard? The patron in this case would just be a teacher who ropes their student into a pretty demanding magical contract. And that's the kind of thing powerful users of wizardry already do to their servant/student wizards.

    Primal patrons would need to be some form of nature spirit, like elementals or fey lords, and paying reverence to these beings in exchange for power is the the druid's niche.

    In Golarion, the only beings capable of granting divine magic are deities, so divine patrons would have to be, by definition, deities. So what's the thematic difference between a witch who made a pact with a deity for divine magic, and a cleric who serves a deity for divine magic? I can't really see any concept you can achieve with a divine witch that you can't already with a cleric, especially since the fluff makes very little distinction between worshippers of a full god and those of demigods like empyreal lords and archfiends.


    Divergently, I would like to see a more modular Witch class chassis.

    Prepared caster, yes. Options to have their "spellbook" be either a Familiar, a Cauldron, or a Tome.

    And Patron determines Tradition. I could argue equally for an Arcane, Divine, Occult, or Primal Witch.

    Okay, maybe not Divine...


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    rainzax wrote:

    Divergently, I would like to see a more modular Witch class chassis.

    Prepared caster, yes. Options to have their "spellbook" be either a Familiar, a Cauldron, or a Tome.

    And Patron determines Tradition. I could argue equally for an Arcane, Divine, Occult, or Primal Witch.

    Okay, maybe not Divine...

    If you're an arcane witch with a tome, why are you not a wizard? Besides, if you want to be a wizard with hexes, you can multiclass witch. A spellbook witch would be completely redundant.

    Again, the issue with prepared anything rather than prepared occult for a witch, is that they'd step on the wizard, druid, and cleric's toes. Hexes mean little in terms of mechanical difference when you can just multiclass to get them.


    Frogliacci wrote:
    In Golarion, the only beings capable of granting divine magic are deities, so divine patrons would have to be, by definition, deities. So what's the thematic difference between a witch who made a pact with a deity for divine magic, and a cleric who serves a deity for divine magic? I can't really see any concept you can achieve with a divine witch that you can't already with a cleric, especially since the fluff makes very little distinction between worshippers of a full god and those of demigods like empyreal lords and archfiends.

    Where does it say that divine magic only comes from deities? The only description I can see in PF2 close to that would be, "The power of the divine is steeped in faith, the unseen, and belief in a power source from beyond the Material Plane." This is not limited to deities, and I'm pretty sure that PF1 had ways for Clerics to worship Demon Lords and other beings like them to get granted divine magic. This is especially notable considering PF2 has made it explicit that all Demons/Devils are using the Divine Tradition for their spells.

    Looking back at PF1, the Witch class had several options for connecting them to divine sources that weren't deities. Some examples would be Celestial Agenda (patron), Demon-Sworn (archetype), Infernal Contract (Patron), and Pact Witch (archetype). These connect well with some common Witch stories in fiction with them some gaining powers from contracts with an average evil outsider (demon,devil,etc), without requiring that they're specifically contracting with a demigod/deity level being.

    The difference between worship + contract also means that a Witch could have a storyline were they hope to use the power they gained to turn against their patron and break the contract (possibly in an effort to save their soul). This is particularly notable since worship isn't generally done unwillingly, while contracts can easily be made under duress or while being tricked. Unlike Clerics, the Witch class didn't have language saying they lost access to their magic/abilities if they don't follow their patron's wishes - which I've always taken to imply that a Patron grants magic/knowledge as a sort of permanent thing, after which is not easily taken back (often because learned knowledge doesn't disappear if you stop teaching). To contrast, deities seem to have an ongoing connection with worship that can easily be revoked if one side or the other breaks that connection.

    Side Note:
    Personally, something I've long been planning to set up in my own setting is having a popular witch hunting book (secretly) be written by a devil. Instead of giving information to destroy Witches, it actually helps create them. A ritual is hidden within the torture methods to allow the devil to make a contract with the innocent victim to "save" them by granting them magic. By the time the new Witch realizes they've been tricked, they're already stuck in a bad deal without an easy way out.

    Frogliacci wrote:
    Primal patrons would need to be some form of nature spirit, like elementals or fey lords, and paying reverence to these beings in exchange for power is the the druid's niche.

    I've never seen anything implying that Druids are expected to revere specific beings in exchange for power. Generally they always seen to be portrayed as respecting nature as a whole. So there really isn't much thematic overlap here.

    Looking back at PF1, the Witch class had patrons like the Fey Gifts patron which was described as, "A powerful fey or other entity has offered you magic. You serve as an anchor and scrying focus in the Material Plane for your patron, but you also provide frequent amusement." It also had the Green Whipers patron described as, "Your witch powers are bestowed by a representative of natural forces, such as an ancient treant or nature spirit, who expects you to wield such gifts on its behalf." The class also had plenty of spells, hexes, and general patrons which seemed to go along with the primal theme.

    Frogliacci wrote:
    The biggest issue I see with giving the witch patron-dependent spell traditions is that it would make witches overlap too much with other spellcasters in terms of lore.

    Personally, I see the Witch as the best choice for being a pick-a-list prepared caster since like the Sorcerer - their power originates from a distinct and highly variable "other" element (bloodline/patron) which they have limited control over. As long as enough emphasis is put on Patrons and their pact/contract, I don't think the Witch having an overlapping spell list will make them overlap too much with other casters.

    Plus, common stories of witches include Witches who could be Divine (tricked into contract with a devil), Primal (drawing power from nature), or Occult (drawing power form mysterious/forbidden elements beyond common understanding). Arcane is probably the weakest connection to make, partially because it has the least specific theming (imo), but even then PF1 had things like the WyrmWitch being connected to dragons (& at least Chromatic/Metallic Dragons are arcane casters).

    ---

    Overall, part of the reason I really prefer to push for the Witch to have patron dependent spell traditions is because I worry about future-proofing content & limiting the theme.

    For future-proofing. Say a really thematic demon-related spell gets added. It'd probably be added to the divine spell list (since that's what demons cast from). A Demon-blooded Sorcerer would instantly have access to this, but an occult-based Witch with a demon patron wouldn't be able to cast it since it was on the wrong list and any patron-related bonus spells were already decided before the new spell came out.

    For the theme, one complaint I saw in PF1 was that too much theming was spent on the sort of stereotypical evil fairy tale Witch while not giving enough options for others types of Witches in tales/myths/etc. If the PF2 Witch becomes strictly Occult, I kinda worry that themes related to the Primal/Divine side of Witch stories will get muted/ignored in the class mechanics in favor of this stereotype.


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    Rysky wrote:

    I'm also for prepared Occult, with patrons adding spells from other lists.

    Otherwise Pick-Arcane-Witch steps on Wizards toes and pick-Divine-Witch steps on Clerics toes too much. Plus occult is very thematic for them.

    Whether or not it's the witch, I want a "prepared pick-a-list" class eventually. It doesn't need to step on the toes of the Wizard, Cleric, or Druid any more than the Occult sorcerer steps on the toes of the Bard or the Divine sorcerer steps on the toes of the Oracle.

    I personally want a dedicated prepared and a dedicated spontaneous caster for each of the four lists, and a "pick a list" option for both prepared and spontaneous. If we get a third kind of casting, then that's five more classes I want.


    Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

    Seems to me what Pathfinder really needs is a comprehensive and sensible underlying theory of how magic actually works. Something like what P.E.I. Bonewits postulated in Authentic Thaumaturgy. This need not, btw, be something the PCs who use magic actually know.


    All those demon and contract based witch archetypes have nothing to do with divinity. The only connection being the very weird Sorcerer thing (which I just dont get in the first place).

    And no I wouldn't think that just because a new demon theme spell was added that witches should get it. Because let's be honest, patrons (at least as they were done before) were based on concepts and domain very much like Oracle mysteries. They were not related to a creature type or spell list.

    *********
    Ed it's hard to do that because the system already had a foundation which got obviously changed.

    But at least in PF1 the biggest difference between Arcane and Divine was is it "because of your effort" or "because something gave it to you". All divine casters worship or get their spell because something gave it whether it was a concept or an actual entity: But Arcane require you to learn (Int), practice (Wis), or intuit (Cha) how to pull things off even while thing might give you some spells.


    Frogliacci wrote:
    rainzax wrote:

    Divergently, I would like to see a more modular Witch class chassis.

    Prepared caster, yes. Options to have their "spellbook" be either a Familiar, a Cauldron, or a Tome.

    And Patron determines Tradition. I could argue equally for an Arcane, Divine, Occult, or Primal Witch.

    Okay, maybe not Divine...

    If you're an arcane witch with a tome, why are you not a wizard? Besides, if you want to be a wizard with hexes, you can multiclass witch. A spellbook witch would be completely redundant.

    Again, the issue with prepared anything rather than prepared occult for a witch, is that they'd step on the wizard, druid, and cleric's toes. Hexes mean little in terms of mechanical difference when you can just multiclass to get them.

    Upon further reflection I think I agree with you.

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