What NEW classes do you hope 2e brings?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My assumption is that the New!Medium will have several flexible multiclass feats that you select as part of your morning preparations. Say, 7-8 in all over the 20 levels. Or heck, make it 9, 1 flexible feat at each level casters get a new spell level, except for 1st. You'd be required to follow the normal dedication rules for them (you have to have at least 2 more multiclass feats from the same class before picking up a second class), but otherwise you'd be free to mix and match, and you can even use your normal class feats to multiclass as well.

This would allow even more "spirits" than the 6 we had in OA, while not taking up valuable page space or accidentally unbalancing it all (once you got the number of flexible feats situated anyways, 9 might be too powerful, but 6 might not be enough, etc.). And every time a new class is added, the medium would get more class feats at no extra charge!

This counts as a new class post, right? Maybe not as a concept, but laying out the mechanics of it.

Liberty's Edge

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My hope for PF2 Medium is to actually go back to the Harrowed Medium from the OA playtest, with each Spirit being a scaling Class Feat (which is an upside, since those usually don't scale directly), but the downside being that you can only use some of them at a time.

I think that would be super neat. It makes multiclassing into or out of Medium tricky...but those issues seem solveable if you work it right.

Liberty's Edge

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AnimatedPaper wrote:

My assumption is that the New!Medium will have several flexible multiclass feats that you select as part of your morning preparations. Say, 7-8 in all over the 20 levels. Or heck, make it 9, 1 flexible feat at each level casters get a new spell level, except for 1st. You'd be required to follow the normal dedication rules for them (you have to have at least 2 more multiclass feats from the same class before picking up a second class), but otherwise you'd be free to mix and match, and you can even use your normal class feats to multiclass as well.

This would allow even more "spirits" than the 6 we had in OA, while not taking up valuable page space or accidentally unbalancing it all (once you got the number of flexible feats situated anyways, 9 might be too powerful, but 6 might not be enough, etc.). And every time a new class is added, the medium would get more class feats at no extra charge!

This counts as a new class post, right? Maybe not as a concept, but laying out the mechanics of it.

This was almost exactly what I was thinking, and is a fairly natural one I think.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

My hope for PF2 Medium is to actually go back to the Harrowed Medium from the OA playtest, with each Spirit being a scaling Class Feat (which is an upside, since those usually don't scale directly), but the downside being that you can only use some of them at a time.

I think that would be super neat. It makes multiclassing into or out of Medium tricky...but those issues seem solveable if you work it right.

Also a very interesting one - I do love the Harrowed Medium! I don't think I'll be attempting to go this way myself - partially due to the fact that it won't do a very good job of letting my players continue to play any mediums they may want to continue playing. There are some pains about multiclassing both ways for medium no matter how you do it, I think.

Liberty's Edge

Deadmanwalking wrote:

My hope for PF2 Medium is to actually go back to the Harrowed Medium from the OA playtest, with each Spirit being a scaling Class Feat (which is an upside, since those usually don't scale directly), but the downside being that you can only use some of them at a time.

I think that would be super neat. It makes multiclassing into or out of Medium tricky...but those issues seem solveable if you work it right.

It would be cool to see them take that route. I could also see following the 'path' route, mechanically. Meaning, you pick one spirit initially and gain benefits from it right away (a skill trained, weapon trained, maybe a spellcasting tradition, or focus spell) but can take feats related to for other spirits as well, similar to the bard's muse.

I think that could make for a wider variety of mediums, but it does kind of shy away from the idea of them being able to channel any spirit on a given day. That might be a little too fiddly in PF2, anyway, to be fair, though... Speculation is fun, whatever the case, though!


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:

My hope for PF2 Medium is to actually go back to the Harrowed Medium from the OA playtest, with each Spirit being a scaling Class Feat (which is an upside, since those usually don't scale directly), but the downside being that you can only use some of them at a time.

I think that would be super neat. It makes multiclassing into or out of Medium tricky...but those issues seem solveable if you work it right.

I wouldn't mind that either, but like I said I would rather they just punt that idea onto an entirely new class. Or if they do go for that (and a lot of people would be thrilled if they did) I hope they move the final PF1 medium's "pick a class, any class" concept onto a different class, similar to 3.5 factotum. An adventuring dilettante would be kind of cool to have.


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That sounds rather like the 3.5 Binder class, actually. Which is definitely a good thing.


You mean medium won't be the occult archetype for the oracle (or maybe the oracle will be the divine archetype of the medium)? The gods give visions, the spirits give me visions, six of one, half dozen of the other.

Liberty's Edge

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Mechagamera wrote:
You mean medium won't be the occult archetype for the oracle (or maybe the oracle will be the divine archetype of the medium)? The gods give visions, the spirits give me visions, six of one, half dozen of the other.

Oracles have always been varied in the abilities available to the class, but not the character - you can have a melee tank oracle, a blasting oracle, a summoning oracle, etc, but you couldn't have one oracle change between all those easily. Medium's mechanical niche is flexibility of the character, not the class, and that doesn't share much with the oracle. Thematically they're not that similar either - oracles are cursed/blessed by gods, whereas mediums channel the spirits of dead mortals. I see far more ground for similarity between a Shaman and a medium than an Oracle :)


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Arcaian wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:
You mean medium won't be the occult archetype for the oracle (or maybe the oracle will be the divine archetype of the medium)? The gods give visions, the spirits give me visions, six of one, half dozen of the other.
Oracles have always been varied in the abilities available to the class, but not the character - you can have a melee tank oracle, a blasting oracle, a summoning oracle, etc, but you couldn't have one oracle change between all those easily. Medium's mechanical niche is flexibility of the character, not the class, and that doesn't share much with the oracle. Thematically they're not that similar either - oracles are cursed/blessed by gods, whereas mediums channel the spirits of dead mortals. I see far more ground for similarity between a Shaman and a medium than an Oracle :)

You go see the oracle to find out what quest the gods want to go on. You go see the medium to find out what quest your dead aunt wants you to go on. That seems very thematically similar to me. It is basically mad libs.


I do like the Harrow Medium, and it feels very connected to the game world with Varisians etc. Part of problem of writing alot of content (even if each spirit is narrow ability, all of Harrow cards is still alot) is opportunity cost of creating so much content for just one niche class. Although IMHO that problem can be fixed by addressing from the outset how Harrow mechanics will be usable for other classes, whether Sorcerors, Bards, or even non-Casters (via Multiclassing or otherwise).

Definitely Shaman and Medium share alot conceptually, with one inherently more "full caster" than the other, with most Shaman spirits perhaps just coming from different tradition than the Harrow. I could even see argument for Medium not existing as distinct class, but just being Shaman Multiclass with option for not delving into spells at all but just Spirit mechanics. (albeit some Spirits may directly hinge on spellcasting)

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Quandary wrote:
I do like the Harrow Medium, and it feels very connected to the game world with Varisians etc. Part of problem of writing alot of content (even if each spirit is narrow ability, all of Harrow cards is still alot) is opportunity cost of creating so much content for just one niche class.

This is why I suggest having them fill your Class Feat slots. All Classes seem like they're gonna wind up with 40+ of those. Upping it to 54 is thus not a major increase.

Liberty's Edge

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Is it too soon for me to ask for a Leap/Jumping/Mobility based Heavy Armor Wearing Class again? I don't care if it's called the Dragoon, the Vaulter, a Jump-arooni-do-do, I just WANT it.

Liberty's Edge

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Mechagamera wrote:
Arcaian wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:
You mean medium won't be the occult archetype for the oracle (or maybe the oracle will be the divine archetype of the medium)? The gods give visions, the spirits give me visions, six of one, half dozen of the other.
Oracles have always been varied in the abilities available to the class, but not the character - you can have a melee tank oracle, a blasting oracle, a summoning oracle, etc, but you couldn't have one oracle change between all those easily. Medium's mechanical niche is flexibility of the character, not the class, and that doesn't share much with the oracle. Thematically they're not that similar either - oracles are cursed/blessed by gods, whereas mediums channel the spirits of dead mortals. I see far more ground for similarity between a Shaman and a medium than an Oracle :)
You go see the oracle to find out what quest the gods want to go on. You go see the medium to find out what quest your dead aunt wants you to go on. That seems very thematically similar to me. It is basically mad libs.

You go the cleric to find out what quest the gods want you to go on. You go to the conjuration wizard/summoner to find out what quest an outsider wants you to go on. You go to the spiritualist to find out what quest your dead aunt wants you to go on. You go to the druid to find out what quest the forest wants you to go on.

That's not to say that there is no overlap between the two classes, but I think that rationalization is stretching if your conclusion is 'very thematically similar'. The reason I say Shaman is similar is because both revolve around channeling the spirits of the land around you at the start of each day to give you varied abilities, which is a pretty specific thematic niche.

Dark Archive

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If some version of the 3pp Scholar class from Spheres of Might doesn't make its way into PF2 sooner rather than later I will be so upset that I may consume my hat, feather and all. The Alchemist is a little too narrow for the "SCIENCE!!!" class.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
Is it too soon for me to ask for a Leap/Jumping/Mobility based Heavy Armor Wearing Class again? I don't care if it's called the Dragoon, the Vaulter, a Jump-arooni-do-do, I just WANT it.

I think I'd like stronger skill feats to allow for most of that (all of the Jumping stuff should be Athletics feats so anyone can build into it) but a fighter subtype that trades in some features for increased skill benefits could lead into that.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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LuniasM wrote:
If some version of the 3pp Scholar class from Spheres of Might doesn't make its way into PF2 sooner rather than later I will be so upset that I may consume my hat, feather and all. The Alchemist is a little too narrow for the "SCIENCE!!!" class.

As the designer of the scholar class, I deeply appreciate this sentiment. Guess we'll have to see what happens!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The more I think about it, the more I feel we could really use a full on diplomacy-based class that ISN'T magical. What do you do when you want to play a stubborn prince? An ambassador to a foreign nation? A rich noble kid who's been kidnapped from home? A bard is the closest fit for all of these, and there's too much overlap with different concepts, especially now that they're dealing with occult magic. I think now more than ever, an Envoy-esque class could really fit Pathfinder, and make for some VERY fun character builds both on the PC side of things and the NPC side of things!


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Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I feel we could really use a full on diplomacy-based class that ISN'T magical. What do you do when you want to play a stubborn prince? An ambassador to a foreign nation? A rich noble kid who's been kidnapped from home? A bard is the closest fit for all of these, and there's too much overlap with different concepts, especially now that they're dealing with occult magic. I think now more than ever, an Envoy-esque class could really fit Pathfinder, and make for some VERY fun character builds both on the PC side of things and the NPC side of things!

Isn’t an element of the above “any class with the noble background”

I have long wanted an actual aristocrat PC class but couldn’t think of the design niche

Envoy buffs allies so is covered by the bard and perform oratory. Your point is wanting one without the spells but what alternative abilities would be worth losing spells for ?

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lanathar wrote:
Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I feel we could really use a full on diplomacy-based class that ISN'T magical. What do you do when you want to play a stubborn prince? An ambassador to a foreign nation? A rich noble kid who's been kidnapped from home? A bard is the closest fit for all of these, and there's too much overlap with different concepts, especially now that they're dealing with occult magic. I think now more than ever, an Envoy-esque class could really fit Pathfinder, and make for some VERY fun character builds both on the PC side of things and the NPC side of things!

Isn’t an element of the above “any class with the noble background”

I have long wanted an actual aristocrat PC class but couldn’t think of the design niche

Envoy buffs allies so is covered by the bard and perform oratory. Your point is wanting one without the spells but what alternative abilities would be worth losing spells for ?

I suppose you could stop there, but then, couldn't any martial class just take the soldier background, or any divine class the acolyte background? ;)

Bards have become very much so esoteric. Their two biggest focuses now are occult magic (hence the Lore muse) and music (the Maestro muse). What if I want a character who does neither?

The challenges facing a design of a class like this are obvious, as you've pointed out, but I could easily see it going any number of ways. Maybe it's Leadership: the class, having a devoted group of (unskilled) followers in much the same way a druid can have an animal companion. This could make it very much so a unique pet class type deal open to concepts like cult leaders and celebrities too. Perhaps the group following them could do downtime events quicker, help carry heavier loads, do remote tasks and even give some combat aid. Of course, basing a whole class around the leadership feat would certainly require some reworking the old feat, since it was often called out for being mad powerful, but perhaps gating it to a single class that only it can use might be the answer to limiting its scope?

Actually, I kinda want a Leadership themed class a TONNE now...


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It could work if the group of followers acted like a troop - making it effectively a “swarm” as a pet


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Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I feel we could really use a full on diplomacy-based class that ISN'T magical.

For cha based non-magic classes I think rogues have a racket that's cha based: That and it's getting so many skill feats I could see it as one you could easily focus on diplomacy.

Now if you're looking for non-magic buffs, I don't know. The game is based on just about everything being a spell. You'd most likely need a skill feat to gain such an ability and rogue is looking good for that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I feel we could really use a full on diplomacy-based class that ISN'T magical.

For cha based non-magic classes I think rogues have a racket that's cha based: That and it's getting so many skill feats I could see it as one you could easily focus on diplomacy.

Now if you're looking for non-magic buffs, I don't know. The game is based on just about everything being a spell. You'd most likely need a skill feat to gain such an ability and rogue is looking good for that.

Even then, the Racket's toolkit is full of sneaks, thievery and flavouring of the grimy underworld. It works just as well as the bard does for the aforementioned cult leader, celebrity or Noble as far as someone who'd take this class goes


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Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
Even then, the Racket's toolkit is full of sneaks, thievery and flavouring of the grimy underworld.

Does it? What about a flourish and a misdirect then following it up with an attack [sneak attack] doesn't sound like a swashbuckling celebrity or noble? Or a hidden blade for a cult leader? As far as thievery and underworld? nothing you are required to take and neither seems like it can't happen for a "cult leader, celebrity or Noble". Nothing about the rogue class forces you to sneak around the city, backstabbing people so you can rob them and then sell that loot to your criminal organization. Rogue fits the debonair actor, the adventuring noble and the master of an underground secret society just fine IMO.

It works just fine IMO thematically. From then playtest: "While the stereotypical rogue is a thief or scoundrel, plenty of rogues make respectable and honorable livings as bounty hunters, detectives, or scouts, and even sometimes as aristocrats, diplomats, or politicians." Note "aristocrats, diplomats, or politicians" can be rogues.


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I like the idea of the new medium learning the names (or whatever) of more spirits as they gain in power (i.e. level). So accessing a spirit can be a function of either "being in precisely the right place for that spirit" or "having previous relationship with the spirit in question."

Biggest problem with the class was you need to rely on the GM's permission to access spirits a la "is there an old battlefield around here?"


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I like the idea of the new medium learning the names (or whatever) of more spirits as they gain in power (i.e. level). So accessing a spirit can be a function of either "being in precisely the right place for that spirit" or "having previous relationship with the spirit in question."

Biggest problem with the class was you need to rely on the GM's permission to access spirits a la "is there an old battlefield around here?"

Myself, I pretty much disliked the entire class: Dm fiat for access was just the icing on the cake. If they do it again, I'd rather see them just dump location requirement for more general ones and present spirits like templates: a quick straightforward list of 'add this' and 'subtract that' like a big buff spell. Add a focus ability with heightened section and done. [a generic focus ability that powers any spirit's power: ie, one focus power the first power listed under the spirit, 2 powers the second...]

Paizo Employee

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graystone wrote:
Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I feel we could really use a full on diplomacy-based class that ISN'T magical.

[...]

Now if you're looking for non-magic buffs, I don't know. The game is based on just about everything being a spell. You'd most likely need a skill feat to gain such an ability and rogue is looking good for that.

Theoretically the framework for a warlord/marshal/envoy type character already exists in the game (or at least the playtest). Characters with animal companions already spend an action to grant their animal companion actions; a class feat for a two-action ability with the verbal trait could say something like "You harangue your ally into action. The target gains one bonus action that that they must immediately use to Stride or Strike." Low level feats would need to have action economy slightly skewed like that (since having the barbarian who's already in the enemy's face take a free whack at them is probably more efficient than having the envoy-type run up and strike), but you could use cooldowns and conditions for more powerful abilities.

From there you've got a framework you can use for any number of tactical abilities, even complex tactical maneuvers. And it would be vastly superior from an ease of use and usability standpoint since it would take the place of teamwork feats but not require party-wide buy-in. The class feats themselves would probably make the multiclass archetype extremely exciting as well; "battle herald" bard builds that combine tactical feats and cantrips would be a glorious addition to any group.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
graystone wrote:
Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I feel we could really use a full on diplomacy-based class that ISN'T magical.

[...]

Now if you're looking for non-magic buffs, I don't know. The game is based on just about everything being a spell. You'd most likely need a skill feat to gain such an ability and rogue is looking good for that.

Theoretically the framework for a warlord/marshal/envoy type character already exists in the game (or at least the playtest). Characters with animal companions already spend an action to grant their animal companion actions; a class feat for a two-action ability with the verbal trait could say something like "You harangue your ally into action. The target gains one bonus action that that they must immediately use to Stride or Strike." Low level feats would need to have action economy slightly skewed like that (since having the barbarian who's already in the enemy's face take a free whack at them is probably more efficient than having the envoy-type run up and strike), but you could use cooldowns and conditions for more powerful abilities.

From there you've got a framework you can use for any number of tactical abilities, even complex tactical maneuvers. And it would be vastly superior from an ease of use and usability standpoint since it would take the place of teamwork feats but not require party-wide buy-in. The class feats themselves would probably make the multiclass archetype extremely exciting as well; "battle herald" bard builds that combine tactical feats and cantrips would be a glorious addition to any group.

Now THIS is a Marshal I can get behind!


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graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I like the idea of the new medium learning the names (or whatever) of more spirits as they gain in power (i.e. level). So accessing a spirit can be a function of either "being in precisely the right place for that spirit" or "having previous relationship with the spirit in question."

Biggest problem with the class was you need to rely on the GM's permission to access spirits a la "is there an old battlefield around here?"

Myself, I pretty much disliked the entire class: Dm fiat for access was just the icing on the cake. If they do it again, I'd rather see them just dump location requirement for more general ones and present spirits like templates: a quick straightforward list of 'add this' and 'subtract that' like a big buff spell. Add a focus ability with heightened section and done. [a generic focus ability that powers any spirit's power: ie, one focus power the first power listed under the spirit, 2 powers the second...]

One adage I heard from somewhere (I want to say it was on the GITP boards) says essentially that "flexibility that has to be nailed down beforehand doesn't count as flexibility". I.e., a Fighter might have a lot of Combat feats, but a Brawler can pick the ones he needs when he learns that he's going to need them.

I think any P2E Medium would need the same thing. Not so much Class feats as much as "stand-ins" for Class feats. Take one, and it has no immediate effect, but a laundry list of possessing-spirit-derived benefits that the Medium can beseech them for in the moment as the need arises (and then they may be stuck with that choice/spirit for some amount of time; kind of like the Erudite Psion from 3.5).


graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I like the idea of the new medium learning the names (or whatever) of more spirits as they gain in power (i.e. level). So accessing a spirit can be a function of either "being in precisely the right place for that spirit" or "having previous relationship with the spirit in question."

Biggest problem with the class was you need to rely on the GM's permission to access spirits a la "is there an old battlefield around here?"

Myself, I pretty much disliked the entire class: Dm fiat for access was just the icing on the cake. If they do it again, I'd rather see them just dump location requirement for more general ones and present spirits like templates: a quick straightforward list of 'add this' and 'subtract that' like a big buff spell. Add a focus ability with heightened section and done. [a generic focus ability that powers any spirit's power: ie, one focus power the first power listed under the spirit, 2 powers the second...]

Wasn't their a class in 3.5 that channeled spirits like the medium but didn't require location instead you took on traits and the physical form of the spirit. I remember the coolest part was the explanation of the spirits.


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Tectorman wrote:
One adage I heard from somewhere (I want to say it was on the GITP boards) says essentially that "flexibility that has to be nailed down beforehand doesn't count as flexibility". I.e., a Fighter might have a lot of Combat feats, but a Brawler can pick the ones he needs when he learns that he's going to need them.

This is why i love the Brawler Class. Martial Flexability was an amazing concept and I hope they bring something similar back; even if they just bake it into fighter at some later point.


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Tectorman wrote:
One adage I heard from somewhere (I want to say it was on the GITP boards) says essentially that "flexibility that has to be nailed down beforehand doesn't count as flexibility".

That's a really good way to put it and basically the problem with the Medium's PF1 incarnation in general. It's balanced like a highly versatile hybrid class but on any given day it's only going to get to do one of those things (and you have to pick that thing at the start of the day), so it just ends up being worse at a lot of tasks without a huge upshot... or you build one to just be a Fighter with some magic.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
Wasn't their a class in 3.5 that channeled spirits like the medium but didn't require location instead you took on traits and the physical form of the spirit. I remember the coolest part was the explanation of the spirits.

The Binder. The harrowed medium that never ended up existing was supposed to be pretty much the Binder re-imagined.


Maybe next time.


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I feel like there's room for flexibility in terms of "I know I'm going into combat, so I'll put on a combat suite" and "I know I'm going to a party, so I'll put on my social suite" or "I will want my sneaky suite here." I see no reason we can't put the medium there.

Just give them the ability to channel a different spirit temporarily when the garden party turns violent.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Just give them the ability to channel a different spirit temporarily when the garden party turns violent.

That's a tough balancing act to allow it on the fly like that. It's one thing if you have to get on in the morning and say 'We're going into the caverns today so I have to "put on a combat suite"' or even ''I'll meditate for an hour to swap' but to have it work at a whim, it'd need a pretty limited duration and/or effect to not outshine those that actually specialize in that field.

EDIT: I wonder if it can work like a barbarian's rage? 1 min on then you can't channel for a min.


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graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Just give them the ability to channel a different spirit temporarily when the garden party turns violent.

That's a tough balancing act to allow it on the fly like that. It's one thing if you have to get on in the morning and say 'We're going into the caverns today so I have to "put on a combat suite"' or even ''I'll meditate for an hour to swap' but to have it work at a whim, it'd need a pretty limited duration and/or effect to not outshine those that actually specialize in that field.

EDIT: I wonder if it can work like a barbarian's rage? 1 min on then you can't channel for a min.

I'd look to the PF1 vigilante for inspiration on switching suddenly from a social to a combat toolset.

Liberty's Edge

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(Pssst! Perhaps a PF2 Medium thread is in order? ;) )


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would like to see a caster that rips health from their enemies and uses it to heal themselves and allies. Like the Vanguard:Saga of Heroes blood mage. They could spend their hp to heal and redistribute health between party members as well. I realize this would be difficult to balance, but I love the concept.


Like a mage with spells all like vampirirc grasp? Could be a cool theme maybe a blood line for sorcerer even.


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Actually a Blood Mage Multiclass Archetype would be pretty cool.


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I know there was a bloat mage in 1e, I'd be surprised if it didn't come back in some form in 2e, but a more vampiric one that stole hp and didn't have to get morbidly obese would be pretty cool too.


Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Tectorman wrote:
One adage I heard from somewhere (I want to say it was on the GITP boards) says essentially that "flexibility that has to be nailed down beforehand doesn't count as flexibility". I.e., a Fighter might have a lot of Combat feats, but a Brawler can pick the ones he needs when he learns that he's going to need them.
This is why i love the Brawler Class. Martial Flexability was an amazing concept and I hope they bring something similar back; even if they just bake it into fighter at some later point.

They... did, already? Similar name, mostly same basic function. “When you make your daily preparations, you gain one fighter feat of 8th level or lower that you don’t have. You can use that feat until your next daily preparations. You must meet all its other prerequisites.” Yeah, it has to be done at start of day, but it does fulfill that “I’ma do THIS today, and THAT tomorrow, and then the day after I can get THOSE, and-” you get the idea


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Themetricsystem wrote:

DRAGOON!

Acrobatics, STRENGTH based class who can use verticality and charges with Polearms to great effect…

Sounds interesting, but… what the heck does "use verticality" mean?

Liberty's Edge

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Ed Reppert wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

DRAGOON!

Acrobatics, STRENGTH based class who can use verticality and charges with Polearms to great effect…

Sounds interesting, but… what the heck does "use verticality" mean?

Take advantage of having higher ground, or jumping down on people, or just generally use the ability to travel large distances vertically.


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As someone who is certain to do a lot of unnecessary trigonometry whenever the playing field becomes 3-dimensional, I hope PF2 doesn't have rules that make a big emphasis on verticality.


Themetricsystem wrote:

DRAGOON!

Acrobatics, STRENGTH based class who can use verticality and charges with Polearms to great effect…

What might have worked in 3.x doesn't necessarily in P2E. 3.x's martial floor was alot lower and byzantine multiclassing was practically the norm for martials by the end, with new classes basically THE route for every new mechanic, because multiclassing by individual level practically makes each level class choice like a feat. Paizo really got away from that in 1E already, and 2E seems to be even more restrained in that regard. Really not sure what is here that could just be Feat chain, with or without Dedication.


nick1wasd wrote:
They... did, already?

You're comparing a once per day ability gained at 8th that activates in the morning to a multiple times per day ability when you want it gained at 1st. I think if a former player of the brawler said 'I want something with martial flexibility' and you point out that fighter ability, they'd be disappointed.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Tectorman wrote:
One adage I heard from somewhere (I want to say it was on the GITP boards) says essentially that "flexibility that has to be nailed down beforehand doesn't count as flexibility". I.e., a Fighter might have a lot of Combat feats, but a Brawler can pick the ones he needs when he learns that he's going to need them.
This is why i love the Brawler Class. Martial Flexability was an amazing concept and I hope they bring something similar back; even if they just bake it into fighter at some later point.

Martial Flexibility could work off a similar mechanic to Focus abilities. Take 10 minutes practicing/sharpening weapons/other martial stuff and then fill the "Martial Flexibility/Focus" "slot" with a Feat you qualify for. This Feat remains until you spend another 10 minutes to refocus into another Feat.

EDIT: Essentially, you have a Feat (maybe more at higher levels) that can be retrained in 10 minutes because you're a badass Fighter.


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graystone wrote:
nick1wasd wrote:
They... did, already?
You're comparing a once per day ability gained at 8th that activates in the morning to a multiple times per day ability when you want it gained at 1st. I think if a former player of the brawler said 'I want something with martial flexibility' and you point out that fighter ability, they'd be disappointed.

Agreed. That's exactly what I meant by "flexibility that has to be nailed down beforehand (and therefore doesn't count as flexibility)". It's the equivalent of how a Wizard can change his spell list every day, but not change his unused Burning Hands into the Feather Fall that he suddenly realized he needed right this very second.


Reckless wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Tectorman wrote:
One adage I heard from somewhere (I want to say it was on the GITP boards) says essentially that "flexibility that has to be nailed down beforehand doesn't count as flexibility". I.e., a Fighter might have a lot of Combat feats, but a Brawler can pick the ones he needs when he learns that he's going to need them.
This is why i love the Brawler Class. Martial Flexability was an amazing concept and I hope they bring something similar back; even if they just bake it into fighter at some later point.

Martial Flexibility could work off a similar mechanic to Focus abilities. Take 10 minutes practicing/sharpening weapons/other martial stuff and then fill the "Martial Flexibility/Focus" "slot" with a Feat you qualify for. This Feat remains until you spend another 10 minutes to refocus into another Feat.

EDIT: Essentially, you have a Feat (maybe more at higher levels) that can be retrained in 10 minutes because you're a badass Fighter.

This is along the lines i was thinking. Give them access to a focus pool and spend a focus point to change out one of their Combat Flexability Feats. Make it a 1-2 action power and i’d Call it good. Forgo the time limit since it’ll only apply to the 1-2 most flexable choices you’ll have anyway; and with something this simple as an opt-in option you’d be able to expand from here.

@Nick1wasd - Pretty much what Greystone said. Combat flexability isn’t bad; actually i like that it gives Fighters something extra to do somewhat regularly, but the appeal of Brawler’s Martial Flexability was the ability to do it in the moment. Also my comment was in reference to the problem of treating daily preparations as flexability when they’re more along the lines of versatility. Also the Brawler was more than just Martial Flexability. Knockout, Awesome Blow, and Maneuver Training were part of it as well. It was like a much more focused monk with a lot of flexability. The Monk’s Improved Knockback in the PT is close to an Awesome Blow, but it needs a higher version of it to be around the same.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

[Spritzes water at the martial flexibility debate] get out of my store, we sell new classes here! >:0

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