I actually have some time this spring to get back to it. I'll try and post an update tomorrow or Friday of where I'm at and what I'm thinking to get some feedback and ask some quesitons!
Thanks for the prods!
Semester is coming to an end and I'll actually have a chance to put the next few classes into final shape and get them posted. ::crosses-fingers:::
In the meantime, two things I'm pondering...
1) I'd always felt the pair of ability improvement feats (ability training/ability advancement) fit nicely in the standard E6 and cleverly helped avoid the min-maxing of trying to get all odd ability scores (because it takes two feats to get +2). But I guess it can be viewed as just switching the min-maxing to trying to get all even attributes? Does it matter?
Is the ability training too weak if it doesn't give some other advantage (the one currently in the P6 Codex rules seems cludgy)?
One possibility is to make advancing an ability by +1 a signature feat, just like the way one gets the other 8th level powers. But that seems like it would make some must haves (Str? Dex?) and others more like an epic feat (Con?). Would it mean some of the class based feats would be even less likely to be picked? It also makes the starting scores even more important.
Do all of the abilities need to be treated the same? (Could some take one feat to advance, while others split the bonuses between two feats?)
What about giving an ability advancement every 10 epic advancements, like a signature feat, but without using up the signature feat slot?
2) I've tried to be pretty strict about having any 7th level ability come through an Epic feat and any 8th level one come through a Signature feat. This seems awkward with the Druid's animal companion where there is the 7th level can give you a huge advancment (pounce!) or nothing (if it had a 4th level instead) and nothing else, and 8th level then gives a hd, skill, and feat.
Is it best to just go in and modify the advancement table here and make the signature feat be getting either the 7th level advancement or the 8th level hd/skill/feat, but not both?
Thanks for all any thoughts (and for all of the encouragement above).
Push is appreciated. Hoping for time this coming weekend to get them up!
Ok, just added the first draft of the ranger to http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdfand, took your suggestion to back out the archetypes/alternate/non-core classes to http://p6codex.com/P6CodexFormularieAlpha.pdf .
The one from the original(?) E6 rules I took that and Ability Advancement from didn't even give the floating +1 bonus.
I'm not sure if there's an elegant way of doing it. Giving two feats at +1 to the ability each (instead of giving +2 on the second feat) seemed to put too much gamesmanship on choosing the initial ability scores. :::shrugs:::
Would it seem better to have a +2 bonus on the ability that lasted a certain amount of time instead of the floating +1 bonus on the roll?
I can certainly see that view!
Over the years, having only the LG religious fighter (Paladin) and the one based on nature (Ranger) has seemed like one of the glaring holes in the game most in need of filling. And the game has a long history of trying to fill it - for example old dragon magazine that had "paladins" for the other eight alignments (for 1e?). Pathfinder has the Crusader cleric archetype, Sacred Servant paladin archetype, and the upcoming Warpriest in the Advanced Class Guide.
In this case, since I'm thinking of adding the less-fighty cleric archetype, adding the more-fighty one seemed to both fill that gap and be a nice counterbalance.
Would simply labeling it a cleric archetype (Divine Champion?) instead of a Paladin one have felt better?
I'm also wondering about where to put a few of the non-core things - I'm thinking of giving the full treatment to the Alchemist (and Investigator), the elemental using Monks, and elemental Wizards. I was originally thinking about putting them in a separate supplement, but then those wanting to use them would have to look up some of their feats and spells in a different spot.
I'm gathering you certainly don't want them shuffled in among the other classes in the same "Chapter". I keep flip-flopping on how I want to do it.
Would an "Optional" chapter with those, the Magus, the divine mystic and the domain paladin/divine champion be something that would seem natural.
(In any case, the Abridged P6 Codex is going to stay strictly Core like it is now.)
Other classes look reasonable so far?
http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf now has the Magus and Monk added. Neither are very far off from the Core rules, but I had to decide on where some of the material should go. In particular, including some of the more magical feeling Monks seemed like it changed the feel of the classic monk too much to make it the baseline. The overview at the front of the file now notes that the supplement after core will contain all of the elemental related monk powers and styles (as well as various other things related to alchemy/elements). The Bloodline Magus will go under Sorcerer instead of Magus as it shares a lot more mechanics with the former rather than the later.
I'm hoping to keep the momentum going... and the Paladin should be a bit more exciting since I'm working on the Domain Paladin alternate class (to fill the more general role between cleric and fighter).
@Propsken: Gack! I thought I fixed that before. I'll try and get an update of it up in the next day or so.
Everyone should feel free to send me any other typos they notice (in addition to any substantive questions/comments).
The vastly different tech level is interesting, and I like the geography.
What keeps the civilizations separated? In the real world it seems like vastly lower tech leads to getting conquered - what's stopping Columbia from trying to go imperial-Britain-like, especially if they have industry, science, and magic?
Fighter is up now http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf.
Any thoughts on how wealth should continue to accumulate into epic advancement levels? Or at least guidance/advice for Dm's
I need more time and checking into long running e6 campaigns to decide on that one. What are your first guesses?
Taking a look at a couple of SoD options like color spray and sleep I actually think P6 might even tip the scales in favor of casters. I could put together a fey sorcerer with the standard array that would have a DC18 sleep spell at level 1 (19 at 2 with a 20 and 21 for hideous laughter and deep slumber respectively). A gnome sorcerer could hit DC18 with color spray. All of these using core rulebooks. I can't imagine many opponents hitting those saves in those levels.
Is that a problem with any character that's optimized with a 20 in a stat in regular PF too? (How much damage can an optimized melee character dish out?) Right now I'm trying not to change the spells/class abilities/etc that show up at level 6 or lower -- but after it's played a while I can imagine some things showing up that might be worth considering. Would a suggested point buy that made 16+ ability scores more expensive be over-kill and not fix the problem that much?
What we've found so far is that it's much easier to simply cap the game at 6th level and dole out bonus feats every 3 sessions after that. No leaning forward feats, no watered-down capstone abilities, or anything like that.
It seems like what people are looking for in E6 varies a lot from group to group - a lot of posters seem to want E8 or to do gestalt, and others want to keep it solidly at 6. :::shrugs::: I'm just aiming for the spot I want and hoping it can be useful for some other groups too.
Thinking about calibrating things, how many sessions does it generally take you to level pre-6th.
Any thoughts in regards to Sandbox's question about whether there are issues managing wealth post-6th?
We make full use of retraining, though,
Just the standard Ultimate Campaign retraining, or some house rules?
Is a mid to high level party in need of a rogue if they have a pair of these?
But the feet don't do door, chest, or ladder traps; disable repeat usage traps; open locks; scout ahead for purposes of reporting back; help you flank and butcher the flankee; be quiet sneaking down the hall (without magical help); or find secret doors. And if the traps would seriously be a threat to a mid-level rogue, then the feet will be out of commission after the first one if not destroyed.
Do figurines of wondrous power replace high-level rogues too?
Another issue is the logistical issues for GMs who now have to decide on the fly if the trap is going to affect he feet or not (for example a pressure plate triggered arrow trap would prolly miss despite the low level ac of the feet because the crossbow is aimed higher.)
I hadn't thought about this one. Does this come up height-wise for familiars, animal companions (many who weigh more than a halfling), or crawling characters? If the Rogue notes the arrow holes for a trap, is it common to make them disable the trap, or can they just see what height the arrows are at and either have the party jump or duck?
(And thanks for your feedback on my item over in your thread - I hope to give you a better one to review next year!)
James Thomas wrote:
This was my favorite item and the one I wish I'd thought of. I'm glad you posted it, and I'm interested to hear why the more experienced folks think it didn't do better.
What grabbed me first was the image it evokes of the feet... both in the canister and then running down the hallway. That they still weigh 190 lbs. jumped out at me too. Beyond being cool and interesting, it also seemed well balanced, just useful enough, not too jokey, and I'd never thought of anything like it.
I was expecting someone to note that it "violates SKR's rule #22" by making adventuring safer (as Jacob notes above). It does, but I wasn't that worried about it because I think the 20 lb weight and presumed physical size would prevent people from carrying multiples and the low hit points mean it won't be usable that often even if it does live through its first trap. (Maybe a few fewer hit points would alleviate that even more?)
Compared to many of its competitors, it also avoided stacking up as many powers as it could (a bunch of perfectly good items added one more power on top), wasn't too powerful for anything below levels 15, didn't have a completely insane price, and wasn't of such bizarre or limited use that I wondered why anyone would bother making or buying it.
I agree with Jacob's formatting comments above and would definitely fix that next time. Reading the "Incessant Ramble" thread, it felt like a lot of voters had internalized SKR's 26 design traps and would reflexively nuke anything that hinted at violating one of them. Having the formatting errors and making adventures safer (and maybe seeming jokey?) might have doomed it with those voters in spite of its other qualities. Maybe I took #27 ("An awesome item may disregard the other advice") too much to heart and the feet didn't deserve to be a top 32 item... but I certainly didn't see 100 that were better than it!
I'd take Jacob's advice to heart...
Jacob W. Michaels wrote:
... focus on refining your skills and the details, and stomp your way into the top 32 next year.
Thanks for the feedback.
The main goal for full P6 Codex is to take the abridged (just-core) part and add in some of the other options that don't change the feel too much. I've been trying to approach all the classes I've modified for the alpha in the same way - look for powers that seem pretty narrow in the Core, where there are other options in the archetypes that are of similar power and that seem to share an underlying theme with the Core power they're replacing.
For the Barbarian, the fast movement didn't seem to make much sense for a mounted barbarian or a viking type - and there were a few options that seemed of similar power and could also be tied to movement. For the bard it was selecting the options to sub-out for the bardic knowledge (things they might have focused on in their training - combat or social skills instead of knowledge) and choosing additional performances. For example, the added options for the 6th level powers both work off of fascinate, just like the original suggestion. For the cleric it was picking a few extra domains that seemed to fill gaps and were different enough from the existing ones. In the case of the druid, the archetypes seemed to highlight that the core druid was really tied into just the forest and not all of nature (they notably didn't make a forest druid archetype). Subbing out Woodland Stride and Resist Nature's Lure for the parallel terrain power seemed to fix that.
Does that one seem different because the powers went together in a pair, unlike the substitutions for the other classes? (I was thinking that having them in a pair would reduce people choosing powers that didn't share a theme in order to min-max). Or do you think some of the options seem abusable or over-powered compared to the original? If some of them seem out of balance, then I'm certainly willing to address that! Or did I miss the gist of your concern?
Or allow for language changing and people using the common current definitions. The Oxford English Dictionary entry for Dude has an update from 2008.
Kind of like how "guys" is now used colloquially for any group, including all-female ones if addressed at a particular group (but is male if referring to "guys" in general). On the other hand, I'd completely agree with anyone wanting to nuke use of he/his as being gender neutral and replacing it with they/their, so maybe I need to work on my consistency.
Anyway, I'd never actually looked up dude before and thought the origin and oldest quotes were kind of interesting/amusing. I don't think I've ever heard it used in the first sense given:
The second definition was the inexperienced visitor to a ranch one that I'd heard before. I wish I had the context for the first quote for this definition...
1883 Prince Albert Times (Sask.) 4 July 5/1 The dude is one of those creatures which are perfectly harmless and are a necessary evil to civilization.
Wasn't expecting to find this one...
What you say is perfectly true in our reality, but in dreams things don't always follow logic or make sense. There's nothing in fantasy preventing constellations from being living creatures composed of "stars" that outline them somehow.
Not being our kind of stars opens up lots of possibilities. I'm imagining a world where the stars would sometimes move over the course of weeks to form new constellations... If nothing else, that would sure give the astrologers a lot to work with!
For the version I've been working on (initial effort at Abridged P6Codex) I've got it set up so that the characters can use the post-6th level feats to get most of the 7th and 8th level powers, but still don't get the 4th level spells. Essentially, five "Epic" feats come close to giving you everything you'd have at 7th level... except the extra spells would be more 3rd level ones instead of 4th. You can also get 8th level powers (or 9th in the case of a bloodline) on a more limited basis (you qualify for one right away, and then can take another every 10th epic feat).
[I]s there a need to boost the fighter, due to the way most of his class features are just feats? The fighter, will then see more diminishing returns than a barbarian, say (who can also spend his feats to get extra rage powers). While there are some fighter only feats which are pretty good, I count only 4 that come on line at level 6 or before, and only two more that come on line at level 8.
Allowing the 7th and 8th level things gives the fighter the greater armor training (for what that's worth). Currently, for the system I'm using I've limited the number of times a character can take the "extra" feats (like Extra Rage Power) to four times, and its currently set up so that Barbarians can only get two of the 8th level rage powers.
just a note: i think in your druid CaveTerrain section, you mention "exceptional abilities"; they should be extraordinary abilities
Thanks, I should have caught that! The PRD and printed APG both have exceptional for several of the domains. (d20pfsrd caught it like you did). I'll fix all those with the next upload.
Amir Hiram wrote:
This isn't entirely on topic, but are there any plans to playtest these rules coming up?
I've seen a half dozen or so games here and on other sites that have mentioned using the rules (find them by googleing p6 codex and looking for posts linking to the various p6codex web-pages), but my schedule isn't being helpful for setting anything up formally myself.
I'm hoping to track down all those using it so far to get reports.
First at e1 and second at e10 (third at 20, etc...). 10 seemed a bit easier to remember than 11 and matched with 10 well-chosen epic feats putting you at about 8th level for the purposes of encounters.
Also in your Alpha document you mention not using Backgrounds or Alternate FavClass Bonuses...what do you mean by Backgrounds? Traits?
Should have said Traits, thanks! I'll fix with the next upload in a day or two that has the Druid. I completely understand why some GMs would like traits, so I'll probably have a blurb in the final version about them being one of the things I didn't include and where they can be found. They struck me as a bit power-creepy, and not quite worth the bang for the effort in terms of added character creation time/complexity , page count, and wondering about which ones are worth including or not based on being too useless or too good. I am planning on adding a single feat that will allow for some of the more common aspects of traits (adding new class skill(s) or smaller skill bonus(es) than skill focus) and the section on races will have some of the alternate racial features.
14 months (I liked 7 for moons before, so twice as good).
Timpani, the month of rains and traditional time for tears of remembrance of things both good and bad. Named for a water goddess who also gave her name to the instrument.
9 day weeks - 3 work, 1 rest, 3 work, 1 rest, 1 day of festivals (a different one each week).
Farael, the first day of the week and the day after the day of festivals. Fallen from the heights of the day before (especially with no day of recovery).
The in progress alpha ( http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf ) has the cleric added to it along with the domains. Especially looking for comments on whether the Divine Mystic archetype looks balanced (and its name), and whether the Forest domain looks ok. The druid and a solid proof-reading should be coming in the next few days.
@Joshua Goudreau: Thanks for the link. Advice/rules for post 6th treasure is something I'll have to think about more.
Correct, they get to choose the higher level combat feat as part of taking the "Signature Combat Feat" feat. So it only takes that one slot to get the improved critical... assuming they had a 6 BAB at 6th level and then took the Combat Improvement epic feat.
I'll go back and look at the wording again to see if I can clarify that.
I wasn't really talking about tweaking P6 to make it work for 14th level adventures but tweaking "standard" Pathfinder to make it run more smoothly long enough to finish an AP. Once the 9th level spells come out I figure all bets are probably off. Anyhow, my "tweaks" might include: <snip>
That's what I figured you meant. I'll come back and think about your suggestions -- it's been quite a while since I've run anything really high level though.
Obviously you could also just run the first few books of the AP and "condense" the rest into a customized finale with CR9-11 encounters. Maybe running APs isn't the real target of P6 anyhow.
Right. I'm more interested in getting everything settled in around that 7th-8th level power and not necessarily making it work for the APs. That being said, if some of them can be made to work then that would be gravy.
I don't think there's a slippery slope with the Bard getting thematic spells like Confusion. They fit the theme of Bard very well, and that's why Bards always got early access to them as 3rd level spells, not 4th.
My thinking was that both the Bards and Wizards got them at the 7th character level, so it didn't really fit one better than the other in that sense. On the other hand, if it was on the Bard list but didn't show up as just higher on the other lists then they still get to have it.
It looks like the option to emulate some other archetypes is also included, which seems nice for variety. I'm glad to see that Dirge of Doom is included as that's probably my favorite bardic performance lately.
Yeah. Trying to get as much in that was balanced and not overwhelming... and to keep everything that was in the Core along for the ride. Glad it seemed reasonable on a first pass. Now I just need to find the time to put the other 10 classes in.
I think with a few tweaks the standard Pathfinder system could work pretty well for at least the levels most APs go up to.
If you wanted to get to 12th or 14th level, what tweaks would you want to put in?
Yeah, like JG points out above, it kind of plateaus out at 8th level. But with a slightly larger party, enough magic items, and enough epic feats, it seems like they could be able to take on a 9th level adventure _if_ it didn't assume they had access to raising the dead, teleport, or any of the other things usually available from 4th and 5th level spells.
It looks like they could play through the first two parts of all the adventure paths... and the third of some of them. It would be interesting to go through all of them and see what is needed to give them satisfactory endings after the 2nd or 3rd part of the Path.
I'll have to do some more thinking about if/how treasure needs to be modified as things go along after 6th. My initial inclination was just to leave it flat.
It seems like using the Slow XP track up to 6th level and then the medium and or fast tracks after that might stretch the game out nicely but allow the PCs to eventually amass enough power to punch through into higher level if potentially deadly adventures,
I really like your idea of using a different XP track if you're doing something like an AP so you can keep up with it. If you were using medium advancement through 6th level, then you might even want to go to 3,000 xp for the epic feats so that they stay kind of on track with where the 7th and 8th level characters would be on medium advancement.
One thing I'm not sure I like is the Bard's loss of access to some thematic spells like Confusion. It seems like if you're a Bard willing to spend a feat maybe those specialized spells which are usually 3rd level for Bards should be available to you. Then again, maybe I just like Bards.
It seemed best for my sanity to just make a rule and stick to it, and avoid the slippery slope. If the Bard gets that spell because they'd get it at 7th level, why doesn't the Wizard get it too? Why just those spells and not all 4th level Wiz/Sorc spells? If 4th level spells are ok for Wizards because they would usually get them at 7th level, what about Sorcerers? etc.. I can certainly see that as a really reasonable set of feats to home rule in.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the extra options added to the Bard in the alpha version of the full rules ( http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf ).
While I've always been of fan of EX (E8 especially for Pathfinder, E6 for 3.5) I've recently discovered dungeon world RPG, and I think it does what EX tries to do better than EX does.
:::not listening! not listening!:::
I'll have to check it out. Too much sunk cost in this to stop now though. :-)
I've finally had a chance to jump into the second big part of the project - selecting and modifying things from the advanced and ultimate books to add to the core rules. So far I've got the first two classes done: http://p6codex.com/P6CodexAlpha.pdf The others will be added as I finish polishing my notes into shape and finalize things over the coming month.
The end goal is to have:
The Abridged P6 Codex - The rules needed to run P6 with just the Core rule book (and it needs a copy of the Pathfinder Core Rule Book to use it). It's posted in beta version at P6Codex.com
P6 Codex - A complete self contained rules set with P6 meshed with Core and selections/modifications from the Advanced and Ultimate books. I hope to have a nice beta of it this spring and the alpha is linked above.
P6 Codex: Gunsmoke and P6 Codex: Formularie covering the Gunfighter and the Alchemist respectively, with everything needed to add them. Aiming for this summer.
P6 Codex: Apocrypha - The epic and signature feats and feat modifications needed to use all of the classes and archetypes from the Advanced and Ultimate books. It will require having those books in order to use them. Also aiming for this summer. I will post an alpha of it and keep it updated when I get started on it.
First year. If only I'd looked on here just a little before making a submission. Then I would have found SKR's advice thread and avoided doing things that could be viewed as violating spell in a can (#1), effect that another item has (#6), it uses dice (#8), and being interpretable as a joke (#12).
Any other flaws that stopped it from getting past the cull? (A few questionable commas?) Anything positive at all?
Dice of Movement
There's one I've seen at least five times already post-cull... and I'd seen it around that many pre. I might have voted for the first paragraph... maybe even with the first sentence of the 2nd... but then it goes all crazy. The old randomizer is gonna have to dig up some worse competition than it has been if it wants me to vote for this one.