Pathfinder E6


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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DrDeth wrote:
But honestly guys. look at the posters here. It's *DMs* who want to limit the magic their players get. Players- by and large- LIKE magic.

Every time I join a new campaign I always try to convince the DM to play E^N so I don't think your generalization is fair. What is more fair is to say that people that champion E^N want to use both as a player and a DM. We're just fans, period.


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Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Looking back, "magic is rare" isn't so much what I meant as "really powerful magic is rare".

The game I'm planning to run E8 is not going to restrict anything beyond what's not available because you are not going above level 8. Magic swords? Yes. Vorpal swords? No. Fireball? Yes. Meteor Swarm? No. Dimension Door? Yes. Greater Teleport? No. In fact, magic is common; effectively the setting is a bronze age society advanced to the iron age through the use of magic, rather than technology.

Level 8 characters will be as rare as level 18+ characters in a normal game. Big magic will come through rituals (which are time consuming but not especially difficult).

What do I think I'm getting out of that?


  • Reduced complexity; not having to deal with the higher level spells, which can make the game more involved. Also, characters have fewer total options, which means less trying to pick the best option out of very many.
  • Automatically exclude most spells and abilities that tend to be considered "game-breaking".
  • No need to try and explain why all the threats out there which challenge the high-level PCs haven't just wiped out the areas where there are so few high-level PCs; a CR 10 creature is something that can be swarmed by enough level 2-4 NPCs, while a CR 20 isn't. And I dodge using different planes to explain that, which lets me keep a simpler cosmology. (Also avoids escalating the threats quite so far.)
  • No real need to escalate the plot threats to so high a level as they tend to reach towards 20.
  • Character capability disparities don't get unmanageable; not only do we not reach the rocket launcher tag level, but we don't have to create Climb DCs that challenge the rogue who maxed the skill, but are totally impossible for anyone else (who will just rely on fly anyway.
  • Ability to threaten the PCs with normal people (it would take a lot of them, but the threat still has to be honored, in a way it doesn't have to be at level 20).
  • Ability to construct plots & adventures for "high-level" PCs where I don't need to worry about proofing them against trivialization via high level divinations, scry, teleport, and so on.

In a different setting I'm working up, which won't be Pathfinder at all, everything will be low-magic, high character ability, and it will be sold to players as that. It will be sold as in the vein of classic swords & sorcery fiction, where magic is very powerful, but extremely difficult, and magical items are interesting. Nobody will find a magical +1 sword. (And the game won't be built around the assumption that you do.) You'll be able to get a mundane +1 sword, by finding a good smith, and you may find a magical +1 flaming sword; a mundane +1 sword that is magically aflame. And these items should have history behind them. In that setting I don't intend for players to ever be getting magic items because they're necessary; only because they're interesting (and powerful, but not so much that they overwhelm how powerful the character innately is).


*casts raise thread*
About how long does the average combat last in epic e6/e8 games? I'm looking at maybe running an e6 game to solve the lengthy combat issue my groups seem to have in later levels, if it indeed does solve the problem. Since my group typically only gets to play for 4 hours every 2 weeks (and sometimes only once a month), a combat that takes an hour or more really cuts into our time.
Please don't suggest other systems to me. I am not in the market for a new game. I don't have the money to spend on a new game, nor do I have the time to learn a completely different system.


This is why I have given up on 3.x, 3.P and 4E. There is too much to break the game, too much mechanical dependence upon attribute modifiers, Bab numbers, skill ranks etc. as someone said on the first page, doing E6 pulls the promise out from under the players.


How long do E6 groups keep playing at level 6? If you continue on with the PCs earning more and more feats, don't the fighters become overbalanced to the other PCs?

Why have an E6 at all? Why not have campaigns that end around 6th level? For our group, low level and high level play both cause problems. I'm considering running an AP but having it be levels 3 - 8, one level per book of the AP. There are enough bestiary's and NPCs out there that it seems easy to substitute in monsters/NPCs.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Ivan Rûski wrote:

*casts raise thread*

About how long does the average combat last in epic e6/e8 games? I'm looking at maybe running an e6 game to solve the lengthy combat issue my groups seem to have in later levels, if it indeed does solve the problem. Since my group typically only gets to play for 4 hours every 2 weeks (and sometimes only once a month), a combat that takes an hour or more really cuts into our time.

I have not run E6 in any form, but I imagine the battle length will cap at however long it takes you to run 6th level combats. Using higher CR creatures will be the exception with their higher stats. But for equal level opponents, HP inflation will halt, and the stronger your characters get via increased feats the better they should be able to handle non-epic enemies. Number of attacks will not increase, which is a common problem with resolving turns in high levels, and spellcasters will have fewer spells to choose from. As long as your players know their characters, combat should remain manageable.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I have not run E6 in any form, but I imagine the battle length will cap at however long it takes you to run 6th level combats. Using higher CR creatures will be the exception with their higher stats. But for equal level opponents, HP inflation will halt, and the stronger your characters get via increased feats the better they should be able to handle non-epic enemies. Number of attacks will not increase, which is a common problem with resolving turns in high levels, and spellcasters will have fewer spells to choose from. As long as your players know their characters, combat should remain manageable.

Thanks for the input. That is what I am hoping for. Is there anyone who has run e6 that can confirm this?


*bump*


Hello,

Not yet played at E6.
But it's planned as soon as we finish the RotR (2 books to go!). Maybe even sooner. No new feat or other mod intended about school powers or wathever.
Still, there's plenty work in adapting scenarios/campain/adventure paths to E6. ;)

Why will I play to E6 ?
Had I heard of the E6 mod before, that I would have played D&D3 (and wathever followed D3.X, Pathfinder, etc.) far sooner and a lot more.
Flavor speaking, it meets more my group's expectation.

I still remember my first D&D campain a few years ago. After a character death (against a dwarf-tieffling sorceror who was staining his clan honor and haunting a part of the mines of this clan) my players were really shocked learning that a character could be raised from the dead. ^^
"You can be raised from the dead ?! And so easily ?! So what's the point of the game if you can do anything without consequences and the death means nothing ?!"
And I realised that I was agree with them.
Maybe it's because since recently, we played exclusively rp games which don't have the enormous power increasing curve of D&D (which goes from the peasant to the demigod)...


I desperately want to run an e6>8 campaign In essence its E6 but your post 6 feeats can add up to the equivalent of an 8th level character (plus other stuff...)

but i run into the same thing where I have players who are basically focused on a 1 to 20 level build even though they NEVER reach these levels.

also they feel like a wizard that cant teleport of cast save/suck spells is a useless class.

personally as a GM and a player I prefer a more low magic environment where the hero's are heroes but not gods. both storytelling and adventuring seem to work best for me at that level.

I think a lot of people actually would like e6 if they played but its like that sprint commercial people want more... its that simple.

most people dont want to even contemplate less, they cant wrap their brains around it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Coboney wrote:

Greetings...

So recently I've been thinking of running a lower level game, with less of a focus on high magic and such that I normally have seen in my games and my friends as well as lower magic setting that base dnd/Pathfinder doesn't encourage.

A while back I read the E6 Rules for dnd (Findable here: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719). Basically the idea is that characters stop leveling at level 6 and every 5000 xp they get a bonus feat and that's all. Part of what it is does is stop some of the dungeon breaking spells and spellcaster dominance / setting breaking that can happen.

So I was wondering - has anyone played Pathfinder with E6 rules? If so how did it work? What did you like/dislike of it?

Thanks for your time,
Cob

I hear endless discussion about this, and wonder why people with this frame of mind aren't playing Runequest or Element Masters, classless games in which magic is kept to low impact, and the rest of the game is down and gritty the way they seem to want it. Because after awhile a 6th level character with feats that would fill the Titanic seems rather silly.

Why not just establish a level cap of 6 and be done with it?


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ivan Rûski wrote:

*casts raise thread*

About how long does the average combat last in epic e6/e8 games? I'm looking at maybe running an e6 game to solve the lengthy combat issue my groups seem to have in later levels, if it indeed does solve the problem. Since my group typically only gets to play for 4 hours every 2 weeks (and sometimes only once a month), a combat that takes an hour or more really cuts into our time.
Please don't suggest other systems to me. I am not in the market for a new game. I don't have the money to spend on a new game, nor do I have the time to learn a completely different system.

For most groups this will shorten the amount of time that encounters take because it sort of caps the complexity of characters. If you stay at 6th level, you have up to 6th level options, it doesnt take as long to sort out what you are going to do every turn. Most enemies also dont have a bagillion hit points, so things will only last so long in terms of rounds as well. You also spend more time with about the same abilities in E6. Once you hit the cap, sure you will get a few feats, but your class abilities are roughly static. That means players should get comfortable with thier abilities and not have to spend too much time looking things up or considering their actions on their turn.

Ofcourse in 'normal' games that extend into higher levels the problem can be mitigated by players considering thier turns while other players are going, but I think even the most disciplined players can get caught up in the action and forget to do that fairly frequently.

DMFTodd wrote:

How long do E6 groups keep playing at level 6? If you continue on with the PCs earning more and more feats, don't the fighters become overbalanced to the other PCs?

Why? If the fighters dont increase in level they only have access to a couple additional feats, and that is balanced by other classes' class abilities. After 6th level everyone is gaining feats at the same pace. Sure the fighter might get deeper into a feat tree, but most feat trees only require a couple of feets if you dont go over 6th level, so the non-fighters wont be far behind.

Besides, if 6th level fighter is balanced with a 6th level paladin (arguable on its own and probably not in the fighter's favor) then 6th level fighter + 3 extra feats will be balanced with the 6th level paladin + 3 extra feats. Obviously the paladin has to make smart choices with those feats, but that isnt overly hard. Heck in some ways the paladin will benefit MORE from the extra feats then the fighter, because the fighter probably already has most of the feats he wants that he can get by that point just by the normal 6th level fighter bonus feats.

Quote:


Why have an E6 at all? Why not have campaigns that end around 6th level? For our group, low level and high level play both cause problems. I'm considering running an AP but having it be levels 3 - 8, one level per book of the AP. There are enough bestiary's and NPCs out there that it seems easy to substitute in monsters/NPCs.

Why have E6? Becaues it allows the game to continue to progress without leaving the realm of 'normal' IE game of thrones/lord of the rings and entering superhero town (after about 8th level you are kind of like marvel super heroes more then you are aragorn or Ned Stark. And sure you can end your campaign at 6th level, but then you have a very brief window of the campaign. Lots of groups like to keep characters around for a long time. E6 gives them a way to do this, and even continue to progress after a fashion without them becoming superheroes.

You could just do a very slow xp track, but for some at least, you dont want to slow down the initial progresion (from 1 to 6) because characters are fairly limited at very low levels.

As for running an AP 3-8, that would be tough. Because its not just about the CR of monsters, its about the whole concept of the game. 8th level character conceptually are not prepared to deal with the final module of most APs. The scale is too big, the abilities you are expected to have are too wide spread. You would not only have to change all of the encounters, you would probably have to re-write a good portion of the story too.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

I would expect that the game would not progress a very long time after hitting the cap. A while, sure. A few feats certainly. Really, to me, it's a matter of completing a campaign arc and the primary stories of the characters, and then starting a new campaign.

As far as players who are too focused on the full level 20 build... really, this is something you discuss first. Your players should know when you're planning the campaign that it will be E6 or E8, and plan their builds accordingly. Or choose not to play the campaign, if a level 20 build (whether they'll reach it or not) is that important to them.

For those who think a wizard who can't cast save or suck spells is useless... there are save or suck spells at all levels. Sure, the higher level ones make you suck more, but that doesn't mean sleep, deep slumber, hold person, blindness/deafness, color spray and a whole bunch more don't exist. Yes scope is less, and effect is less, but that doesn't make the entire concept nonexistent.

For running an AP, it wold require a lot of rewriting. Conceptually doable, but a lot of the AP content I have read assumes access to spells and equipment you will not have in E6. (Well, you may have the spells as time-consuming rituals, rather than standard actions.) Every encounter past a certain point will need rewriting to fit the appropriate CR. And plots often hinge on those high-level abilities. I've got interest in doing Serpent's Skull as E8, but it's a lot of work. (I'd rather do Reign of Winter using E8+Mythic to start off; that should need less rewriting.) Remember, ritual magic is your friend in this case.

The Exchange

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I actually thought of doing an E6 game using the Alternate Level Advancement as presented in this PDF Sean K Reynolds Alternative Level Advancement PDF.. That way you divide the 6 levels into 3 stages each effectively making 18 level ups. Then I can just go a few additional ones to give a 20-21 type advancement.

I think it would work out good, especially if I make it so the advancements happen after every other session. 40 weeks of gaming to cap out sounds about right, and would be long enough of an adventure path for most people I should think. Of course subbing out monsters and adjusting existing APs is gonna be a bit of work but on the other hand, a bit of sandboxing wouldn't be bad.
I feel like writing an AP for lower levels is much easier than higher level challenges are to write so that may be a better option anyway....

The Exchange

So has anyone actually created an E6 for Pathfinder yet? I mean like a downloadable pdf of rules for a Pathfinder specific E6 game?


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Odraude wrote:
Wildonion wrote:
Question: Given that Pathfinder has a slow level progression track that would help keep players at the lower levels for longer, why not make use of that? Start them at level 2 or 3 to give them some hit points if you want, but you will have a much longer time between level-ups. Then you can just stick a cap on the game at level 8 or so and call it good. If that is still too fast for your tastes or if you want to control progression more, you could just tell your players that you want to play a game where you tell them when they level up.

From what I can read of E6, it is less about slowing leveling up pre-6. Seems more about stemming post-6 abilities that would normally make certain plot elements difficult and retain a certain low fantasy (read: not low magic) feel that some people prefer. If you would, it's like the opposite of Epic/Mythic rules.

Still don't know why it's called Epic 6. Kind of a misnomer if you ask me.

E6 is not the opposite of Mythic. In fact, E6 and Mythic are pretty darn similar. Mythic rules are a way to give low-level characters additional power beyond class levels. E6 rules...give 6th level characters additional power beyond class levels. In fact, you could replace the bonus feats of E6 with one mythic tier per 3 feats or so, and get a pretty similar effect. Mythic rules are NOT high level. They are not similar to epic.

Hmm...come to think of it, E6 could be renamed "M6"--after level 6, you don't gain any more levels, but you gain alternate power (in this case, feats). The only difference would be that the PF mythic rules, as they stand now, allow you to gain mythic tiers at level 1.

The Exchange

Fake Healer wrote:
So has anyone actually created an E6 for Pathfinder yet? I mean like a downloadable pdf of rules for a Pathfinder specific E6 game?

I shoulda realized that someone would see this thread, not realize that it is from April and respond to the earlier posts instead of my question....

Looking to see if there is a Pathfinder specific E6 document yet.

Liberty's Edge

I don't believe there is. Or rather, I suspect that there isn't any single document, though I suspect plenty of people have their own.

When the idea of E6 was first released it was so new and unique a concept everyone wanted to make sure they got it *right*. But since then it has grown and people have been adapting it to their own individual and group needs.


ShadowcatX wrote:

I don't believe there is. Or rather, I suspect that there isn't any single document, though I suspect plenty of people have their own.

When the idea of E6 was first released it was so new and unique a concept everyone wanted to make sure they got it *right*. But since then it has grown and people have been adapting it to their own individual and group needs.

Pretty much. Even in 3.5, there are non-core base classes which don't have capstone feats listed in the "main" E6 article everyone links to. But that's okay--the point of the feat-buy system is that feats are relatively easy to come up with, so DMs can adjust it to fit their games. The way you transition from normal PF to P6 is pretty much the same as going from 3.5 to E6, so there isn't really a need for an "official" explanation.

Also, Odraude, if you are still here, I apologize if I came across as too blunt yesterday...


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Here are some E6 "epic" feats I compiled or thought up. I haven't playtested anything so I don't know what its worth but here they are.

Spoiler:
E6 Epic feats
Feats beyond 6th level: A character gains an extra feat every 5,000 xp beyond 6th level. For every 5 feats the characters effective CR increases by 1 to a maximum of 4 after 20 feats. For each CR Only 3 epic feats may be taken 1 general and 2 class specific.
General
Improved Toughness
Prerequisite: Character level 6
Benefit: You gain 4 hitpoints
Special: this feat may be taken multiple times its effects stack

Combat Training
Frequent and focused combat training have increased your battle prowess
Benefit: Your Base Attack Bonus increases by 1.
Special: You may only take this feat twice.

Ability Advancement
You've spent time perfecting one of your abilities.
Benefit: Choose one Ability Score; you gain a permanent +1 bonus to that ability score.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, however, it may only be taken twice for each ability score.
Expansive Skill
Benefit: Upon taking this feat you acquire 4 skill ranks.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times.
Skill Beyond Your Years
Prerequisite: Level 6
Benefit: Upon taking this feat you select a skill. Your max ranks with the chosen skill rise from 6 to 8.
Swift Metamagic (Metamagic)
Prerequisite: Metamagic feats (see below), Caster Level 6, Spellcraft 6 ranks
Benefit: When you take this feat, select a metamagic feat. As a swift action once per day, you may apply this metamagic feat to a spell you cast with no adjustment to the level of the spell cast.
Special: You must have a number of Swift metamagic feats equal to the level increase of your chosen metamagic, minus one, to take this feat. For example, Empower Spell, which boosts the level of a spell by 2, has a prerequisite of 1 Swift feat. Split Ray, which has an increase of 1, would have no prerequisites. This feat may be taken multiple times.
Ritual Magic
Prerequisite: Ability to cast third level spells; Spellcraft 6 ranks; Skill Focus: Spellcraft, Spell Casting Ability Score of 15 or higher.
Benefit: Two or more spell casters of the same type (Divine or Arcane) who each have the Ritual Magic feat may work together in an elaborate ritual to invoke 4th, 5th, and 6th level spell effects. Each person may only begin one ritual per day, though they may assist with any number of other rituals. A Ritual Spell takes a base of one hour to perform. Each additional caster involved in the ritual beyond the first two reduces its casting time by 20 minutes to a minimum casting time of 10 minutes with 5 participants. Rituals may require specific costly material components equal to 500 gp per spell level plus additional unique spell components.
Special: The spells which may be called upon are chosen by the GM.

Barbarian
Barbaric Resilience
Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: You gain DR 2/--

Brutal Warrior
Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: Your barbarian level is 2 higher for all barbarian abilities

Seeing Red
Prerequisite: Brutal Warrior
Benefit: You gain the greater rage class ability

Bard
Dirge of Doom
Prerequisite: Bard 6, Greater inspiration
Benefit: You gain access to the Bard Song ability Dirge of Doom.
Experienced Performer
Prerequisite: Bard 6, Perform (any) 6 ranks
Benefit: You may start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action
Greater inspiration
Prerequisite: Grand Bard
Benefit: Your inspire courage bonus goes up by +1

Master performer
Prerequisite: Dirge of doom
Benefit: You gain the ability to use inspire greatness bardic music

Grand Bard
Prerequisite: Bard 6, perform 6 ranks
Benefit: your effective bard level goes up to 8 for the purposes of bardic music and caster level, this does not grant extra spells known or spell slots

Cleric

Divine Channeling
Prerequisite: Cleric 6
Benefit: Your channel energy dice increases by one die
Special: This feat may be taken twice

Extra Domain
Prerequisite: Cleric 6, Knowledge (Religion) 6 Ranks, Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion)
Benefit: You gain the domain power and spell list of one additional domain associated with your deity.

Pious
Prerequisite: Cleric 6, Spell craft 6 ranks
Benefit: Your effective cleric level also increases by 2. This does not grant extra spell slots.

Deific empowerment
Prerequisite: Cleric 6, knowledge religion 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the 8th level domain power for one of your chosen domains
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times each time choosing a different chosen domain.

Deity’s Blessing
Prerequisite: Deific empowerment, Pious
Benefit: You gain the ability to cast on of your deities domain spells chosen at the time this feat is taken, as a spell like ability usable 1/day using your cleric caster level

Favored Servant
Prerequisite: Deity’s blessing
Benefit. You gain the ability to choose one spell from the normal cleric spell list or one of your chosen domain spells usable 1/day as a spell like ability, using effective cleric level as caster level

Druid

Bond of the Earth
Perquisite: Druid 6, knowledge nature 6 ranks
Benefit: Your effective druid level goes up by 2 for the purposes of wild shape and caster level. This does not grant extra spell slots.

Nature’s Blessing
Prerequisite: Bond of the Earth, Spell craft 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the ability to cast one spell off the druid spell list as a spell like ability 1/day. This spell most be chosen at the time the feat is taken and cannot be changed.

Nature’s Warriors
Prerequisite: Bind of the Earth
Benefit: your effective druid level goes up by 2 to determine animal companion bonuses

Natures Bulwark
Prerequisite: Nature’s Blessing
Benefit: You gain the venom immunity class feature as indicated in druid class

Fighter

Martial Veteran [Combat]
Prerequisite: Fighter 6
Benefit: Upon taking this feat you are treated as having fighter level 8, and Base Attack Bonus is considered 2 higher for the purpose of selecting feats

Master Combatant [Combat]
Mastery of your craft has increased the effectiveness of your fighter special abilities.
Prereq: Fighter 6, Martial Veteran
Benefit: You acquire Armor Training 2, and your Bravery increases to +3.

Varied arsenal
Prerequisite: Master combatant
Benefit: You may select one additional weapon group to add your weapon training bonus to. This increases the first weapon group by +1.

Monk

Enlightened Fist
Prerequisite: Monk 6
Benefit: Your monk level is considered 2 higher for unarmed damage dice, monk AC bonus and slow fall.

Excelling Flurry
Prerequisite: Enlightened Fist
Benefit: You use Flurry of Blows with no penalty to your attack bonus.

Enlightened Body
Prerequisite: Enlightened Fist
Benefit: Your gain the Wholeness of Body Monk ability.

Enlightened Spirit
The order of the universe flows through your mastery of ki
Prerequisite: Enlightened Body
Benefit: You gain the Ki Pool (lawful) benefit.

Paladin

Templar
Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: your paladin level counts as 2 higher for all paladin abilities, except divine bond and smite attempts per day.

Templar’s Resolve
Prerequisite: Templar
Benefit: You gain the Aura of Resolve class ability

Divine Punishment
Prerequisite: Templar
Benefit: You gain the ability to smite 1 more time per day

Brothers in Arms
Prerequisite: Templar
Benefit: Your paladin level is considered 2 higher for the purposes of the bonds abilities

Ranger

Stalking Hunter
Prerequisite: Ranger 6, Survival 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the woodland stride and swift tracker class abilities

Over the Horizon
Prerequisite: Stalking Hunter
Benefit: You gain a second favored terrain

True Hunter
Prerequisite: Over the Horizon
Benefit: You gain the camouflage class ability

Hunter’s Companion
Prerequisite: Stalking Hunter
Benefit: Your Ranger level is 2 higher for the purposes of determining hunter’s bond abilities

Rouge

Duel one, Duel all
Prerequisite: Rouge 6
Benefit: You gain the improved uncanny doge class ability

Cruel Blade
Prerequisite: Rouge 6
Benefit: Your sneak attack increases by 1 die
Special: This feat may be taken twice its effects stack

Talent Mastery
Prerequisite: Rouge 6
Benefit: You gain one advanced rouge talent

Sorcerer

Blood of the Ancestors
Prerequisite: Sorcerer 6, knowledge arcane 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain your blood lines 7th level feat and 9th level power

True Sorcerer
Prerequisite: Sorcerer 6, spell craft 6 ronks
Benefit: Your caster level increases by 2, and your sorcerer level counts as 2 higher. This does not grant extra spell known or spell slots

Bloodline Awakening
Prerequisite: True sorcerer
Benefit: You gain your 7th level blood line spell

Bloodline Mastery
Prerequisite: Bloodline Awakening
Benefit: You gain the ability to use your 9th level bloodline spell as a spell like ability 1/day, using sorcerer level as caster level

Bloodline empowerment
Prerequisite: Bloodline Mastery
Benefit: You can choose any 4th level spell on the sorcerer spell list and use it as a spell like ability 1/day using sorcerer level as caster level

Wizard

Scholarly Adept
Prerequisite: Wizard 6, Spell craft 6 ranks
Benefit: Your effective wizard level increases by 2. This does not grant extra spells known or spell slots

Knowledge is power
Prerequisite: Scholarly adept, Knowledge arcane 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain your schools 8th level school power

Unearthed Discovery
Prerequisite: Scholarly Adept
Benefit: you may select on spell form the wizard spell list that is not from a prohibited school, you may use that spell as a spell like ability 1/day using wizard level as caster level

Extraordinary Research
Prerequisite: Knowledge is power, Unearthed Discovery, Non-universalist wizard
Benefit: You can chose a spell from the wizard spell list that is within your favored school and use it as a spell like ability 1/day using wizard level as caster level.

Arcane Infusion
Prerequisite: Scholarly Adept
Benefit: Your wizard level counts as 2 higher for determining arcane bond abilities

Alchemist

Potion master
Prerequisite: Alchemist 6
Benefit: Your alchemist level is considered 2 higher, this does not grant extra extracts per day

Volatile concoction
Prerequisite: Potion master
Benefit: Your bombs damage increases by 1 die

Lab Rat
Prerequisite: Potion Master
Benefit: You gain the poison immunity class ability

Cavalier

Knight
Prerequisite: Cavalier 6
Benefit: your effective cavalier level increases by 2

Single out
Prerequisite: Knight
Benefit: You may challenge one extra time per day

Knights Code
Prerequisite: Knight
Benefit: You gain your orders 8th level ability

Trusted Mount
Prerequisite: Knight
Benefit: Your cavalier level for the purposes of your mount increases to 8

Inquisitor

Zealous
Prerequisite: Inquisitor 6, Knowledge religion 6 ranks
Benefit: Your caster level increases by 2, your effective inquisitor level also increases by 2, This does not grant extra spell slots or spells known

Divine Judgment
Prerequisite: Zealous
Benefit: You may use your judgment one extra time per day

Servants Verdict
Prerequisite: Divine Judgment
Benefit: You gain the second judgment class ability

The Exchange

Wow, pretty good stuff!! I wouldn't use the +s to BAB just so that the full BAB guys don't get encroached on by the medium BAB guys with iterative attacks....
Beautiful job though.


E6 Feels epic to me. I'm running an E6 game on the pbp forum and it is coming off as really high powered. Normal people can absolutely not touch 6th level characters or compete at their level.


I'm in the middle of running an E8 PF campaign using the Kingmaker kingdom building rules and the general plot of the Civilization 4 expansion "Age of Ice", which itself derives from the wonderful Fall From Heaven mod for Civ4.

I had previously run an E6 game in D&D 3.5, where the players earned 20 epic feats after level 6. My observation was that this got dull for the players. 20 epic feats is too many. One of the reasons I switched to E8 was that it would allow me to extend the campaign a bit without using so many epic feats (another is that certain classes gain key benefits around level 8). My objective is to wrap up the campaign when the PCs have between 5 and 10 epic feats.

I also allow a small amount of "high level" stuff, partly because players just find a way to add it in themselves and partly because I do want to use some of the higher powered monsters. In this campaign, the PCs received "spirit marks" from the ghost of a dead god early on that granted them spell-like abilities mimicking one spell of level 1-2. Expansion feats enabled these spirit marks to grant SLAs mimicking one spell of level 3-4, and then 5-6.

I've also noticed that staffs are fantastic items in an E8 PF campaign, as they basically grant access to select high level spells (that the DM doesn't mind dealing with) due to the rechargeable nature of the staff. Want to grant access to Restoration? A Restorative Staff with Lesser Restoration and Restoration will do this. Sure, mere mortals could never craft such a thing, so it's an artifact made by a dragon or god.

Speaking of dragons, my players will be taking on Drifa, a Great Wyrm white dragon, at around 8+5. I expect that they will be able to beat her! Players find a way!

Here's the link to my pre-campaign intro video, if anyone is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxMG6hQC6O0

The Exchange

Werebat wrote:

I'm in the middle of running an E8 PF campaign using the Kingmaker kingdom building rules and the general plot of the Civilization 4 expansion "Age of Ice", which itself derives from the wonderful Fall From Heaven mod for Civ4.

I had previously run an E6 game in D&D 3.5, where the players earned 20 epic feats after level 6. My observation was that this got dull for the players. 20 epic feats is too many. One of the reasons I switched to E8 was that it would allow me to extend the campaign a bit without using so many epic feats (another is that certain classes gain key benefits around level 8). My objective is to wrap up the campaign when the PCs have between 5 and 10 epic feats.

I also allow a small amount of "high level" stuff, partly because players just find a way to add it in themselves and partly because I do want to use some of the higher powered monsters. In this campaign, the PCs received "spirit marks" from the ghost of a dead god early on that granted them spell-like abilities mimicking one spell of level 1-2. Expansion feats enabled these spirit marks to grant SLAs mimicking one spell of level 3-4, and then 5-6.

I've also noticed that staffs are fantastic items in an E8 PF campaign, as they basically grant access to select high level spells (that the DM doesn't mind dealing with) due to the rechargeable nature of the staff. Want to grant access to Restoration? A Restorative Staff with Lesser Restoration and Restoration will do this. Sure, mere mortals could never craft such a thing, so it's an artifact made by a dragon or god.

Speaking of dragons, my players will be taking on Drifa, a Great Wyrm white dragon, at around 8+5. I expect that they will be able to beat her! Players find a way!

Here's the link to my pre-campaign intro video, if anyone is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxMG6hQC6O0

Nice Pre-campaign video! I really need to focus on honing my editing and video skills in general. I would love to do something like that for a campaign....


Several of the early posts in this thread helped me decide to go with E6 instead of E8, and I found the general discussion of it very interesting. Thanks!

Like a lot of you, I've been working through a set of P6 feats too and have the beta version of the ones to go with the Core Rulebook finished. I avoided looking at any other P6 versions while putting them together, so now I'm finding it interesting to go compare it to the others. Apparently for some feats there is only one really obvious name :-)

The main idea in this version is that a choice of five post-6th feats should allow you to approximate 7th level fairly well, and each character should be able to select one signature power they would get at 8th level (9th for sorcerer).

The Abridged P6 Codex

Interested to see if you guys who've run campaigns with E6, P6/P8 see any major holes or pitfalls.

The Exchange

Jr. Annalist wrote:

Several of the early posts in this thread helped me decide to go with E6 instead of E8, and I found the general discussion of it very interesting. Thanks!

Like a lot of you, I've been working through a set of P6 feats too and have the beta version of the ones to go with the Core Rulebook finished. I avoided looking at any other P6 versions while putting them together, so now I'm finding it interesting to go compare it to the others. Apparently for some feats there is only one really obvious name :-)

The main idea in this version is that a choice of five post-6th feats should allow you to approximate 7th level fairly well, and each character should be able to select one signature power they would get at 8th level (9th for sorcerer).

The Abridged P6 Codex

Interested to see if you guys who've run campaigns with E6, P6/P8 see any major holes or pitfalls.

Printed and looking through it currently...I will get back to you on my thoughts after absorbing it totally.

One question, are you planning on making more Codexes for P6 after this one is out of Beta and if so, what would they be?

The Exchange

Looks very good after a nice read-through. I look forward to really going over it later for details but in general I liked the adjustments made with this and how you handled rituals. Are you planning on doing Codexes for the non-core base classes also?


IdleMind wrote:

I intend on use the slow progression from the pathfinder core-book. I want to make sure the party has multiple adventures at each level and a chance to use their new toys from each level up at LEAST once, hopefully more. (I also tend to do alot of downtime between adventures, a month usually, unless the flow of the adventure necessitates immediacy).

-Idle

Slow? We're running Medium in our group and we've gone something like 8 or 9 sessions for one level. Then again we do have something like 12 ppl in the party :p


Mok wrote:
Diabhol wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out why people who want a low-magic game want to try Pathfinder/D&D and go with E6.

I *love* Pathfinder to death, but if I want a low-magic game, I'm going to pull out Iron Heroes and just play that.

For myself, Pathfinder is where all the action is at.

Everyone knows PF and the rules are free, so it's just a matter of broadcasting out to this larger group of players and see who shows up.

With Iron Heroes everyone needs to pick up an out of print book, you have to learn all the ins and outs of a different d20 system. In the end it's just easier to go with PF E6.

Except Iron Heroes is carefully balanced for Low Magic. PF isn't.

And, mostly the only folks who want to go E6 are DM's who just can't handle the kind of stuff that happens when the PC's get Teleport, etc.

The whole idea of “death should mean something so Raise dead is bad” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.

The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?

Next, Tolkien was ANYTHING but “low magic”. The Fellowship had: The Single Most Powerful Artifact in the World, The Third Most Powerful Artifact in the World, Artifact Sword, Two relic named swords (but note Sting was named as a joke), a version of the Invulnerable Coat of Arnt, three Bane daggers (what were their names? ), a cloak of elvenkind for all, the Stone of Galadriel, Gandalfs staff, Aragorns ring, Boromirs horn, Legolas bowstring… etc etc. That party was loaded. Heck magic weapons were so common no one noted the powerful bane daggers that the hobbits carried until one of them brought the Witchking to his knees. Aragorn was a Epic level ranger with a few PrCs, etc. Sure Gandalf didn't exhibit much high level magic but his other abilities showed Mythic if not Immortal.


Aragorn was a fifth level fighter.


Fake Healer wrote:
Looks very good after a nice read-through. I look forward to really going over it later for details but in general I liked the adjustments made with this and how you handled rituals. Are you planning on doing Codexes for the non-core base classes also?

Thanks! (And for your link back there to Reynolds Alt. Level Advancement too--I'd been pondering something about 1/2 levels.)

I hope to have the unabridged version out this fall that will add selected things from the Advanced and Ultimate books, as well as some new rules, that fill in some of the gaps in the core. Class-wise it will have the Magus class, a d6 Cleric option, feats to allow bloodlines for non-sorcerers, a few select archetypes for fighters, and for most of the other classes some of th archetypes will be collapsed into power options (so you'll have the choice of what bard performance to take instead of that particular one).

I'm going to try and get the other classes out for spring -- one supplement for all things firearms and another for the rest of the classes (so all of them except the Core, Magus, and Gunslinger in that last one).


meatrace wrote:
Aragorn was a fifth level fighter.

Not enough information to go on. Did the orcs have levels in warrior? Fighter? How many? Are they even the same?

Yes, the other stuff (Jump checks etc) is true, but he's making too many assumptions about the named characters.


DrDeth wrote:


And, mostly the only folks who want to go E6 are DM's who just can't handle the kind of stuff that happens when the PC's get Teleport, etc.

I think I do just fine running or playing in adventures with teleport, raise dead, super-scry-power, and the like. The problem I have is crafting a campaign world I can believe in and want to run. Why are there still castle walls and armies? How do the characters magically avoid all of the super-high powered bad guys out there? Would they ever be able to old on to any magic items that were above their level for any length of time? Do I just send them off to other planes for the high level stuff -- and if so, what sort of cosmology is holding back the super-high stuff? How do you keep family and friends who haven't been advancing safe if you've made any serious enemies? etc...

DrDeth wrote:
Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.

Groups I've played with at the pre-raise dead levels have always "handled that kind of stuff" pretty well. ;-) It's another campaign thing. What rich person needs to care about an assassin unless they obscond with the body (or all the ashes)?

DrDeth wrote:
Next, Tolkien was ANYTHING but “low magic”. The Fellowship had: The Single Most Powerful Artifact in the World,

And the characters in the Lord of the Rings were mere shadows of the ones from the Quenta Silmarillion - Feanor, Fingolfin, Ecthelion, Hurin, Luthien, etc.... I always find it interesting that Tolkien's world has the opposite of the power creep that tends to happen in lots of them.

meatrace wrote:
Aragorn was a fifth level fighter.

Lot's of interesting things in that article. Thanks for posting the link.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
meatrace wrote:
Aragorn was a fifth level fighter.

Not enough information to go on. Did the orcs have levels in warrior? Fighter? How many? Are they even the same?

Yes, the other stuff (Jump checks etc) is true, but he's making too many assumptions about the named characters.

That's the blog post that basically inspire E6 to begin with so...

The point is though that most of the fights in the books the characters run from instead of confronting. In game terms, if they hadn't been WAAAAY over by WBL, loaded up with gear, they would have been squished.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jr. Annalist wrote:
I think I do just fine running or playing in adventures with teleport, raise dead, super-scry-power, and the like. The problem I have is crafting a campaign world I can believe in and want to run. Why are there still castle walls and armies? How do the characters magically avoid all of the super-high powered bad guys out there? Would they ever be able to old on to any magic items that were above their level for any length of time? Do I just send them off to other planes for the high level stuff -- and if so, what sort of cosmology is holding back the super-high stuff? How do you keep family and friends who haven't been advancing safe if you've made any serious enemies? etc...

There are actually answers for those questions if you work them out. Part of them will be in proper implementation of the rules, and other will be in the custom details of the game world you construct. In Golarion for instance the number of NPC's above 15th level is very very small, so the environment of the post 15th level world is different than it would be for the Forgotten Realms where realm walking archmages are so common you can't avoid tripping over one passed out in an alleyway of any significant city.

In most part the checks on the activity of higher level wizards and other casters, is the extreme desire not to be noticed as a player, i.e. target. Which means they have to act by extended proxies and as a result this highly limits the direct impact they can have on a situation.


LazarX wrote:
Jr. Annalist wrote:
I think I do just fine running or playing in adventures with teleport, raise dead, super-scry-power, and the like. The problem I have is crafting a campaign world I can believe in and want to run. <snip>

There are actually answers for those questions if you work them out. Part of them will be in proper implementation of the rules, and other will be in the custom details of the game world you construct. In Golarion for instance the number of NPC's above 15th level is very very small,... <snip>

In most part the checks on the activity of higher level wizards and other casters, is the extreme desire not to be noticed as a player, i.e. target. Which means they have to act by extended proxies and as a result this highly limits the direct impact they can have on a situation.

Fair enough. Maybe my problem is with the game/world combinations that those answers lead to? A system set up with detailed powers through 20th level, but a world where using those powers puts a huge target on your back? My mind is wandering to possible analogies with the effect of mutually assured destruction on war or the sporadic way in which the big super-heroes are treated in regards to politics in the comics.

Either way, P6 gets me around needing to think about those issues and having to like the world they lead to.

9th-11th pretty rare too? Around there is where the scrye&teleport to wipe out family and friends seems like it could get nasty and things like pass-wall and raise dead would have implications on sieges and assassinations.

And now I'm having a bunch of questions bubble up that seem to be wandering off topic for the thread. Do you have a favorite thread/site on world design with high level NPCs and monsters?


meatrace wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
meatrace wrote:
Aragorn was a fifth level fighter.

Not enough information to go on. Did the orcs have levels in warrior? Fighter? How many? Are they even the same?

Yes, the other stuff (Jump checks etc) is true, but he's making too many assumptions about the named characters.

That's the blog post that basically inspire E6 to begin with so...

I thought it was also inspired by the classic Dragon magazine article "Gandalf was only a 5th level magic-user".


hogarth wrote:
meatrace wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
meatrace wrote:
Aragorn was a fifth level fighter.

Not enough information to go on. Did the orcs have levels in warrior? Fighter? How many? Are they even the same?

Yes, the other stuff (Jump checks etc) is true, but he's making too many assumptions about the named characters.

That's the blog post that basically inspire E6 to begin with so...
I thought it was also inspired by the classic Dragon magazine article "Gandalf was only a 5th level magic-user".

Fine line between "inspired by" and "rips off".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jr. Annalist wrote:


Fair enough. Maybe my problem is with the game/world combinations that those answers lead to? A system set up with detailed powers through 20th level, but a world where using those powers puts a huge target on your back? My mind is wandering to possible analogies with the effect of mutually assured destruction on war or the sporadic way in which the big super-heroes are treated in regards to politics in the comics.

If you ever read the Forgotten Realms novels where the big mages come into play you'll notice that they do use their major powers, but very rarely and in specific circumstances which don't lead them into head on conflicts with other big guns.

The system is like a big toolbox. You're not required to use all of the tools, at least not at once.

As far as comics go, you may notice that the big super-heroes are becoming much more part of the political scene, even if they're being dragged into it.


After reading through here, I like E6. It just makes sense and does away with some of the worst problems of DnD, such as GMs being told in the manual to cheat on ("scale") encounter levels (which should instead follow a 1/x probability distribution, unless the PCs are looking for a tough fight on purpose). It also removes the need for all kinds of crutch-like fixes to overpowered PCs. I like the idea of keeping the PCs closer to normal humans.

Nice, Cleric 1, Wizard 1, Mysthic Theurge 4 gets 3rd level spells in both classes, special abilities of 1st level wizard and cleric (including a raven familiar who can talk and channelling positive energy). He gets +3 BaB, +5 Willpower, +2 Reflex, +4 Fortitude. Taking cleric first boosts HP and Fortitude save.
With E8 Mysthic Theurge, I'd keep the "ability to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells" as a requirement and let him be Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / MT 2 (because a Cleric 1 / Wizard 1 / MT 6 would be too cheesy). Still only limited to 3rd level spells, while straight caster classes get 4th level, but it is a reasonable price for versatility.
Toughness, and feats boosting saving throws and attributes by 2 and maybe arcane armour training would make this guy much tougher. Of course the capstone feats for Wizards and Clerics are not available to a MT. So is crafting some interesting magic items.
An Arcane Hierophant build would probably work even better.

I don't see a lot of magic items from the ultimate equipment guide, which I expected to be there. Such as horseshoes of speed.
And damn it, Handy Haversack and Efficient Quiver are just 1 CL beyond the 8 CL limit and they're so convenient. Oh well, pack horses it is, then. Pearls of power are CL 17. Too bad, they're cheap, so it would make sense to load up on like ten of them and use each lvl 1 spell slot for a different spell.
Stat-boosting items could be limited to +2 or +4, to make them on-par with lvl 2 buffs at best. Remember that a headband of intellect gives 1 extra maxed skill per +2 bonus when worn.
I wonder if using ritual magic to create more powerful items at ten times the cost would work with E6, similar to how Epic Level handbook handles creation of epic items.

Magic weapons and armour don't need to be +1 for extra abilities. Instead make them +0 (with a bonus to hit from masterwork, but no +1 to damage) for 250 gp, which allows adding properties that cost money, but not a +x bonus. Very handy for making specialised arrows cheaper.

Overall casters get lvl 3 spells, while full BaB classes get a 2nd attack, which makes them quite powerful. 3/4 BaB classes, but not 0.5 BaB classes can get that second attack by spending 2 feats, which works for me.

I also like that this makes archery more powerful. Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot + Many Shot on a full BaB class and you get 4 attacks per round, where everyone else has 1 or 2 at best. Add Mounted Archery and a light warhorse with horseshoes of speed and you can kite a group of melee fighters, which is always fun. Even the non-archery speced people would be wise to have a ranged weapon and either soften up the enemies before they charge or just shoot once their spells run out.

It also makes mounted combat and heavy cavalry more viable and anyone with flying mounts, like griffins, is a terrifying force.

Skills still count at this level and aren't out-classed by magic yet, as described in the article that started E6. Even better, there is no requirement to keep up with higher CRs, so even 1 point to "unlock" a skill or get the +3 bonus for a class skill is a good investment, especially with high int.

Another thing I like about E6 is that fewer things are fluid. After a while, the players will memorise their attack bonuses on all their attacks, ranges of all their spells and so on.

E6 also makes alchemical items and poisons more viable. Too bad, the poison prices are so broken and even crafting them at 1/6 price is too expensive to use regularly. I'm especially a fan of poisons that put to sleep, like Drow Poison (made from mushrooms) and Blue Whinnis (made from a plant). In E8 you can get hundreds of doses of temporary (but free as beer and working) variants with minor creation spell.

The E6 manual lacks a list of Pathfinder / DnD feats that are compatible. Just a list of names divided into epic and non-epic would do. Some things like Leadership, Improved Familiar and Arcane Armour Mastery probably are epic, but available.

Adding symbols to feats for what makes for cautious and gestalt progression would also help.

Since so many rules are getting re-written, you might as well build in some more 3.5 variant rules into it, like vigour and wounds.

In general, I prefer point-buy systems to levelling systems, so just getting feats (including some that grant skill points or a max +2 attribute bonus) is appealing to me.


Since someone already cast "Raise Thread", I'll piggy-back onto this:

I've been looking to do E6/8 for a while, but never got around to it. However, there are a few things I'd like to know, from people who've played/ran it.

First, is there a need to boost the fighter, due to the way most of his class features are just feats? The fighter, will then see more diminishing returns than a barbarian, say (who can also spend his feats to get extra rage powers). While there are some fighter only feats which are pretty good, I count only 4 that come on line at level 6 or before, and only two more that come on line at level 8.

Secondly, how well does this interact with Mythic rules. I know some will say that Mythic E6 is an oxymoron, flavor-wise, I disagree. Mythic, while intended to be a replacement of sorts for Epic, was also intended to make even lower level games feel more epic in scale, which is also E6's purpose. To use the Fellowship as an example, where they (with the possible exception of Gandalf, who is an NPC, in my mind), were primarily 6th level or below, I'd argue they at least has some mythic tiers about them. But getting back to my question itself, would Mythic be better gained during 1-6 play, or as a Post 6th boon?

Lastly, I know there's some debate on whether E6 or E8 is better for Pathfinder. The big thing I've seen on it is weighing the power of 4th level spells, vs the utility of gaining the mini-capstones that come about at 7th or 8th level (like Domain & School powers, DR 1/- for the Barbarian, and so on). Personally I don't feel like the 4th level spells that people take issue with (like scrying and lesser geas and such) are all that difficult to counteract. But I'd like a second opinion, possibly from someone who's done E8.


Tholomyes wrote:

Since someone already cast "Raise Thread", I'll piggy-back onto this:

I know there's some debate on whether E6 or E8 is better for Pathfinder. The big thing I've seen on it is weighing the power of 4th level spells, vs the utility of gaining the mini-capstones that come about at 7th or 8th level (like Domain & School powers, DR 1/- for the Barbarian, and so on).

For the version I've been working on (initial effort at Abridged P6Codex) I've got it set up so that the characters can use the post-6th level feats to get most of the 7th and 8th level powers, but still don't get the 4th level spells. Essentially, five "Epic" feats come close to giving you everything you'd have at 7th level... except the extra spells would be more 3rd level ones instead of 4th. You can also get 8th level powers (or 9th in the case of a bloodline) on a more limited basis (you qualify for one right away, and then can take another every 10th epic feat).

Tholomyes wrote:
[I]s there a need to boost the fighter, due to the way most of his class features are just feats? The fighter, will then see more diminishing returns than a barbarian, say (who can also spend his feats to get extra rage powers). While there are some fighter only feats which are pretty good, I count only 4 that come on line at level 6 or before, and only two more that come on line at level 8.

Allowing the 7th and 8th level things gives the fighter the greater armor training (for what that's worth). Currently, for the system I'm using I've limited the number of times a character can take the "extra" feats (like Extra Rage Power) to four times, and its currently set up so that Barbarians can only get two of the 8th level rage powers.


personally, I have more experience with lower level characters than higher level ones. If you know how to use your spells, casters can be quite effective even at lower stages. However, I do prefer the idea of E8 better than E6 because it's a more natural place to stop. A lot of classes get benefits at level 8, which, by making it E8, lets those abilities feel like a capstone. Sure, 4th level spells are powerful, but the amount each caster gets per day is pretty limited, and a character who reached the pinnacle of power SHOULD have a trick they can pull out once or twice that lets them show how strong they are. It also lets caster make a little better use of the extra feats, since those 4th level slots can also be used for metamagic empowered spells.


I have been running Pathfinder games for a while now and was just recently looking into how to run a low-magic pseudo-realistic game. I think that this E6 system fixes a lot of the problems that I run into when world building or running very long epic campaigns. I find that world building for a system that allows people to reach 20th (or even 10th) level gets rather muddy if you are trying to make it gritty and realistic.

As for the amount of experience for advancement. Does 10,000 XP per epic feat advancement after 6th level seems to be a good number. The original E6 rules say 5,000 xp, but that was built for 3.5 Ed. Any opinions on that? ... I realize that it is probably somewhat arbitrary and that you can always award more or less experience as a GM to help things progress at the speed you want. Just curious what other people are using.


I've been playing Pathfinder E6 for quite a while. I modified Rise of the Runelords for E6 and completed the entire AP. Did the same with Serpent's Skull and we're currently starting book 6. Personally, I wouldn't want to go with E8 because I think it gets a little out of hand even stopping at 6th. The final encounter for RotRL was CR 14 and was an amazing battle with a party of 4 (all survived). But we were starting to see the negatives of high level play - longer turns, hints of rocket tag, lots of book keeping. Those 20 extra feats with plenty of capstone abilities really added up - my best estimate is roughly +1 APL per 5 additional feats.

A problem I've hit is the undead in the CR 6-9 range who start dishing out negative levels. I opted to change that to Con damage since the PCs can't fix negative levels. Otherwise, E6 has kept things fast paced and the balance seems pretty good.

I don't use exp, so can't help on that. However, you don't want the feats coming too fast because it is very disruptive. I had them come too fast in RotRL - the party got a feat every 2 or 3 encounters near the end which didn't work well.

Next up will be Mythic E6 Legacy of Fire, going to tier 5 or 6.


Mike J wrote:

I've been playing Pathfinder E6 for quite a while. I modified Rise of the Runelords for E6 and completed the entire AP. Did the same with Serpent's Skull and we're currently starting book 6. Personally, I wouldn't want to go with E8 because I think it gets a little out of hand even stopping at 6th. The final encounter for RotRL was CR 14 and was an amazing battle with a party of 4 (all survived). But we were starting to see the negatives of high level play - longer turns, hints of rocket tag, lots of book keeping. Those 20 extra feats with plenty of capstone abilities really added up - my best estimate is roughly +1 APL per 5 additional feats.

A problem I've hit is the undead in the CR 6-9 range who start dishing out negative levels. I opted to change that to Con damage since the PCs can't fix negative levels. Otherwise, E6 has kept things fast paced and the balance seems pretty good.

I don't use exp, so can't help on that. However, you don't want the feats coming too fast because it is very disruptive. I had them come too fast in RotRL - the party got a feat every 2 or 3 encounters near the end which didn't work well.

Next up will be Mythic E6 Legacy of Fire, going to tier 5 or 6.

any insight into adjusting Wealth for your P6 campaigns? or are you just dishing out standard AP wealth and gear? that would significantly up the PC's power level even though they're just P6+Epic


I am VERY intrigued by this.

I would actually allow most class abilities to continue to scale according to level. Feats would still be every 5000xp, perhaps with bonus feats at "regular" levels. So Wizards would still advanced their school powers, Clerics would still advanced Domain powers regularly. Rogues would still receive Rogue Talents at the appropriate levels.

Basically, the only thing I would really do is limit Base Attack, Save Progression, Spell Progression, and HD. Everything else advances as normal. Some exceptions might have to be made, but I would do it on a per class or archetype basis.

Grand Lodge

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Coboney wrote:
So I was wondering - has anyone played Pathfinder with E6 rules? If so how did it work? What did you like/dislike of it?

I played in a two-year-long Pathfinder E6 campaign with rotating DMs and, I have to say, it's among the best RPG experiences I've ever had in my 30+ years of gaming.

The key for our group was simplifying the rules down to just basic E6, none of the extra bells and whistles that usually get added on. No leaning forward or capstone feats or any of that. We did use the retraining rules, though.

Also, instead of experience points, we used the much simpler Pathfinder Society advancement system: 1 game session = 1 experience point. Then you would level up according to the following chart:

1 exp = 2nd level
3 exp = 3rd level
6 exp = 4th level
10 exp = 5th level
15 exp = 6th level

(Note that this results in you hitting 6th level the exact same time you would in PFS)

After that, you earn a new feat every 3 exp.

Seriously, this is the best way to play Pathfinder in my opinion.


Taking advantage of the already necromancy used here, I want to ask how do you think the Automatic Bonus Progression (ABP) will match with E8 Pathfinder?

One of the more used arguments against E8 is the posibility of crafting a belt with +6 to str, dex, and con. The ABP dishes out this problem easily, so a E8 can be a better option now?


For all the guys wanting E8: E6 actually extends a bit beyond level 6. There's meant to be a feat for most classes that lets you acquire a single class feature from level 7 or 8.

It was actually created with your thoughts in mind.

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