Joshua Matherne's page

One thing should definitely be clarified.

Errata wrote:

Page 151: The Knockdown feat's wording made it ambiguous whether you were actually Tripping, which left it uncertain whether you apply any special effects and requirements related to the Trip action. To make it clear, change it to say "If you do and your Strike hits, instead of rolling a check for your Trip attempt, you automatically apply the critical success effect of a Trip."

Improved Knockdown is on page 151, but Knockdown is the feat that's listed as being changed. This would be a serious upgrade to Knockdown if that's the feat that should indeed be changed, and make Improved Knockdown pretty obsolete.

That a typo in the FAQ that change is for improved knockdown in the actual printing. I just downloaded and checked it.

Thanks for the suggestion Zapp, your stuff really looks good, but I want to remove them entirely. I really don't like the idea of spend a point system to get extra roll or do something amazing. One of the reasons I didn't like Swashbuckler in 1st edition. I am looking for a static/Passive thing that will not throw the system out of wack. But looks like death/Dying and hp rules in 2nd edition are very dependent on hero points. Saving you from such. It may not be possible to take that out of the system. It could also be maybe the AP is not as balance as I though it would be. I am not sure. I did not get play test because I was not GMing when it came around. So we are only playing with it now. It seems like 1st edition with unchained action economy may have been bit more balanced in this aspect of not needing hero points. I do know if, I had not double the players race based hp, the party would have TPK and we would have had death sooner.

I would like to come up with something that could give bit more flavor to the characters and be unique to them. Before I figured free ability boost would be good enough. But it is obviously not.

I was thinking of maybe a 2nd background, but call it Childhood. Player maybe pick something, that happen to their characters in their child hood that maybe gets them expert in a skill sooner or a free skill feat, ability boost or honestly maybe a small reaction ability or 1 act that ability unique to them. Could give them a bit of narrative power.

I never liked the idea of them personally in 1st or in the play test. I am not sure, if the meta game aspect or, if is just something I don't feel like keeping track of as GM. I do like the Idea of grittier game. I am coming background from 2nd ed. AD&D. Losing actual levels when you die was a thing. So harshness was pretty common. Do you guys think, a free ability boost\Feat\ or 10 extra hp. Be a good trade off for them. Still gritty but as gritty at low level?

Good job all. Not sure which version I am checking right now alas.

I would replace all TEML with a simple case to fill with the letter.

Values could be "lvl+" mod.

Abilities could be in two columns : physical on the left and mental on the right.

This would help add a few more lines for Strikes.

Spell sheet should have Cantrips, focus spells and spells share the same list with an additional field indicating the type. Innate spells would be separated and focus points too.

I do not know how to do all this regrettably.

I feel you about the TEML, It is do able on a sheet that does not auto calculate. There is no Armor spot on the sheet like there was in 1ed. So keeping tack of your characters Proficiency with Armor types got crammed were ac is located. Unlike the weapon spot that got it's own location. It made me really confused, why there was another TEML with nothing associated to it at 1st. Then I realized the the spot was for what was actually equipped and doing calculation.

As for doing that on sheet that auto calculated most everything. I am sure it is doable. I am, a bit novice at best. I am trying to teach my self the adobe java scripting that takes place in pdfs. I am not sure, how I would make a typed letter = a number value with out making and 2nd invisible box for each time I want to do that. I tried something similar before with 1st edition sheets. They got really buggy, if I had to many invisible boxed or tried multi coding in a single box. If I could get that stable, I would still have to go in and edit the sheet txt and layout also. It is way more work then it is worth. I just left the boxes there as check boxed.

Unlike undead dm version of the sheet. Since I am using them do math, I had to learn how to join the check boxed to a group and assign value to them. So only one can be active at time for them to have value. Other wise I would have to code a ton of exceptions, which leads to more bugs. So figure that would be easier. I was going to use radio buttons instead, Since they auto group and have different values. But found out you can't unchecked them, once they are checked. So went the route I did.

Prof Score on the sheets does = level + Prof mod, on my calculation sheet. All you have to do is fill in your level and every where you level is supposed to go it added it. then you check the TEML and then it add the value for that also.

Once there is a cleaner layout, Like undead dm and data lore are working on. I should be able to copy most of my calculation stuff over to their sheet now that base work of coding is done. They are welcome to steal them off my modded of their sheets. I kind of just wanted to get something out quick so character creation is quicker for my group and figured I share it and thank those guys for doing some layout work and box creation.

Data Lore and Undead DM, Color version fillable. I have taken your sheet Color version fallible no brown box sheet. I made it auto calculation version of it. This is version 1.0, I still need to add extra lines and boxes to auto calculate bulk and encumbrance and spells per day. So I need read those chapters more heavily before making those changes. Go to Sheet .

So Far it

calculation ability score mod based on score. and will auto populate it on the sheet were needed

it will add level and the appropriated checked box in each area and determine your proficient

total out attack bonus

total out All skill.

It also uses auto figure AC based on Max dex or dex mod what ever is lower.

It allows you to select Class Key score and it will pull the mod and auto add it into calculation.

If you can't access link let me know this is my 1st time trying to link google drive share.

to OP 1st post, I have not read anything beyond that post so far. Changes are to final system, will be done, it really depends on your arguments. I took part in the advanced players guide test. I can tell you the hunter class spell system was completely revamped from that play test to final version. Based on our augments as whole, we really had to fight and justify it. With examples of actually play and how it would be better or worse. they also made changed to brawler and slayer. Based on arguments in those threads. I really only participated in those threads and the warpriest thread. While their where a lot of people like my self that felt the warpriest was waste of time and space and should have been not even be printed in the book. Our arguments against the class were not very constructive, so still came to be.

Based on that experience If you want to get something tossed out a lot, I mean a lot of people are going to have to be against it and have really good and constructive arguments against it. Mechanical changes will be much easier and popularity will not matter, you just need a good argument to get that change through. Example with hunter changing the spell system and list was not very popular, but a few of us manged to get it changed. while very popular wish of a change was for aspect of animal to not be enhancement bonus. They would not budge and change that.

they pretty much already stated, it is slightly modify version of the unchained action economy. So iterative are gone. They do not exist, you get 3 act in around. you can choose attack up to 3 times in around with these 3 acts, but after every attack you get a -5 to the attack roll. I use this unchained action economy in my games, and it makes for more mobile combat and more dynamic also. Most player don't use the 3rd act to attack and are more likely to use it to intimidate, aid ally, one of my players had this ability called shield ally from his archetype he would often do that. two weapon fighting works as you where able to make and additional attack with your off hand on your 1st act of attacking, if you had improved two weapon, on the 2nd act of attack you could make another attack with your off hand.

chaotic monks work also. Who is the Master? and great example of a chaotic evil Monk. SHO'NUff
https://technicolored.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/sho_nuff.jpg

I honestly hope they ditch Alignment system all together and their fore not tie paladins to it. I hope paladin are just knights that follow their deity tents to extreme measures. They can still have a code of conduct, but it is specific to the deity they worship.I also hope Anti-Paladin, Hell Knights, Cavaliers are just archetypes of the Paladin.

I enjoy it also, completely revamped my games entirely around it.
list favorite order

1. new action economy, Battle has become very different more free flowing among all classes. It seems to balance a few of them out. (It does need a lot of tweaking on DM part for feats some magic items. you can just kill them off or adjust them to how you want them to work.)

2. ABP - made magic items little more interesting again. because you don't need the big 6 any more. Also make DR more relevant in monsters. As it takes longer to get an item that just goes thru all DR.

3. I uses consolidated skill, which also cause you to use background skills system. I just like having to deal with a lot less skills. My players like the background skill because they don't have to waste important skill points on Profession and crafting skill. They automatic get these ranks. It fits the characters background stories ect. Allows then to add fluff to the Characters with out sacrificing ranks on the adventuring skills that get uses a lot more often, like perception, athletics, spell craft, and diplomacy. Many of my games I would have characters with out this fluff, because players would worry about the other skills more.

4. Variant multi-classing. I would prefer to use this instead of normal multi-classing, But I have not completely convert over to this. because so much is missing, from it. Like if you remove normal multi-classes how do you get into a prestige class or getting spell casting? I know there is a 3rd party book that covers this but it is full of error and a lot of cuts and pasting. right now I am testing it on NPC/cohorts. I will cut over to it and use the 3rd party book, but will have to fix the errors in that.

I would like Paizo to make another unchained book, go into more detail on the action economy and and VMC and and flesh it out more. Maybe unchain a few more classes also.

KainPen wrote:

they recently fixed the eastern armor, in a Errata of the ultimate equipment book I think, or maybe it was a FAQ. they are now priced better for what they do.

Can you provide a link?

it is on the product page of ultimate equipment you have to downloadErrata or get a copy of the 2nd printing of the book. I don't think they updated the SRD yet with the changes.

they recently fixed the eastern armor, in a Errata of the ultimate equipment book I think, or maybe it was a FAQ. they are now priced better for what they do.

there is no issue it stacks it says so under defending trait that it stacks.

"A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn. This ability can only be placed on melee weapons."

So these are the requirements for defending
1 It is placed on melee weapons, a shield is a melee weapon,
2 you must be wielding it as a weapon, thus shield will have to be used as an attack. This is fine if it is offhand because you are still wielding.
3 you must have free action that is use able (some gm limit the number of free actions you can take in a round.)
4 the weapon must have a weapon enhancement bonus. your shield is +5 weapon enhancement bonus. so yes

As long as you are doing those things you can Add to your AC, as an added bonus this untyped bonus goes to CMD and touch also.

edit.
the only way this ability could get messy and questionable is with a +5 bashing shield, +1 defending (bashing makes it +1 weapon) thus it is now qualifies for the Defensive property. Then try to combine shield master feat. Since the feat treats your defensive enhancement bonus as a weapon one. As a double dip on the defensive enhancement bonus. with out actual paying for the +5 weapon. I can see some why some gm would flat out say no that does not work.

Let him go with it, this is a home brew game, I say go with it. it does not have to be magic, make it combo lute, and axes, make him pay master work cost for both items, and take on 50% of cost of one of them. since your are combing two item into one. in magic items their rule for this is a 50% increase on the cost of one of the items. now if he want to enchant it to amp, he can use item magic creation rules to add ghost sound at x uses per day. ghost sound is a 0 level spell so it not exactly game breaking when if it is at will because it is 1st level casting with dc of 10. command word activated is 1,800 for at will for a level 0 spell. Seem fair based on what the spell does. Just make sure you let him know at will does not mean free action it just means unlimited uses per day. it is still going to be a standard action to activate.

note even combing the items into one item he will not be able to attack with the ax and preform with it at the same time. it take two hands to perform with most instruments. his hands will be occupied doing that so he will not be able to attack. This is why most bards picking singing as their preform to if they are going to be melee combat bards.

I have a feel this is your problem have you been running random encounters as AP's normally suggest or have you been skipping them? this is often listed to do at the start of each chapter if possible often in fine print and it is easily missed. This means you have to make your own encounters and add your own created wealth to the AP also.

I have a feeling all the characters are under leveled also. them being under geared and under level may be what lead them to in TPK the 1st place. TPK's I find are very rare in Paizo's AP. Most AP by book 4 have characters at about level 10 or 11 So that is where this feeling comes from. Look at your AP and the point of the story, they are in at the front of that book, it should list the recommended level for that point. Do PC match that level? if not you have 2 options to fix

1. run some random encounters enough to get everyone back the the same treasure level and get them to the correct level.

2. This option will fix your problem entirely, remove xp from the game level the players at the set time listed in the AP and remove wealth by level completely, by using unchained automatic bonus progression. This will fix the magic item problem. every character get the same bonus at the exact same levels. With it players don't miss out on expected magic item they are supposed to have. you just have to remember to remove certain one from the AP. like +x weapons, amulets of natural armor, cloaks of resistance, ect. (I highly highly recommend doing this.) it easier to remove stuff then add stuff, and saves a ton of time and head ache for you, it just a few rule changes you have to learn.

there is an official Vampire hunter D booking coming out from Paizo via a kickstarter.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1951067948/vampire-hunter-d-message-fr om-mars/description

So we will see what they come up with. Good job on the nerco Juda.

KainPen wrote:

Lostcause78 wrote:

That is a lot of attacks!

Pardon me for jumping in with a related 3rd party question-

What does Multiattack do for the original list of attacks:

Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3
Off Hand: +18/+13/+8
Natural Attacks: +18/+18/+18/+18

- as in which of them would be considered secondary attacks?

Been pondering making a natural attacks character but am finding it a little complex to figure out all the do's and do not's.

all the naturals are secondary and the numbers off if you are using two weapon fighting in combination with as I stated above and many others. the original total numbers are wrong, but the number of attacks are correct.

see j b 200 post for the correct numbers and what damage looks like. for this exact setup. This includes Multi attack, in these numbers. which is why they are +16 and not +18. it is just not labeled, like it was for TWF

if you are wondering what ones or secondary if you are only doing natural attacks see the monster book in the back, it list them. Bite, Claws Gore are all primary I think. while tails wings ect. are secondary unless it is the only form of attack.

Thanks for clarifying, and I assume the Bite, Gore and Claws become secondary because he's also using unarmed strike?

I'm amazed that you guys can keep all these rules in order, gives me a headache at times!

yes that is why. only reason we know them all is because most of us probably have GM before or have been gming since 3.edtion. Which requires a heavy knowledge of the rules. we have just adapted to the changes, between version. But even then we still get stuff wrong from time to time because we remember the older version rule instead of the current. we also get corrected often on these boards. like zza ni did above. I think 3.0 it could have been 3.5, but at some point only monks could unarmed strike with any part of there body. I think in 3.0 you actual had to declare which part of the body your where striking with also. zza ni was either remember that version of the rule or did not realize it was updated for Pathfinder. Because the wording for the monks unarmed strike makes it sound like it is something only he can do. This is left over jargon from the version in which he was the only one that could. someone corrected me on it my self at some point on these boards.

I don't understand why people are complaining that a lot of this content seems to be more GM-related. It's Horror Adventures, not Ultimate anything or anything Guide. To me, that says it would be more GM-centric.

It does seem more GM related maybe that why I like it so much, I often stuck as GM. I am glad it is that way also, give me lots effective options and both for challenge, theme and rewards to give and use on my players.

I don't know if anyone seen this kick starter yet. It is for vampire hunter D Comic, which is fully funded now, but it has stretch goals to get actual Vampire hunter D pathfinder Add on from Paizo. Maybe they will be and offical way of making D hand in the book from the stretch goals for this comic

Vampire hunter D Kickstater

While GMs may like it, I know players who HATE it. So much so that they'll actually quit a game or not even join.

As for the XP progression, I have to disagree. If you're 9000 XP behind, you will always be 9000 XP behind. Unless you miss more sessions, in which case the gap only widens. The original system was in place for people to catch up if they started at a lower level. MMO's and various other RPGs have a proper system in place, but Pathfinder is lacking. As good as the Earn XP during downtime is, if a GM finds it to be too much work to come up with something, it'll get ignored.

yeah but at level 15 9000 is a drop in the bucket. much like the people who take rich parents as a background trait and getting 900 gp extra at level 1. by level 5 - 7 that 900 gp became nothing. the most you will ever behind is 1 encounter from leveling behind. which can be fixed with what thewastedwalrus stated about down time. that performing that down time action once at level 10 and all of sudden you are caught up with the rest of the group, you are actual ahead of them 600xp now. there are lots of ways to catch up if xp is used.

You actual be surprised how quickly you catch up. there no need for the system, the XP amounts required to level are balanced so that you can catch up quickly. this is based off medium progression. Lets say you level 1 and the party is level 10, by the time the party reaches level 11, you will be level 7 by the time they reach 12, you will be 10, by the time they reach 13 you will almost be 12. it will pretty stable at that point.

but As Ascalapus said the essayist thing any gm can do is just remove xp from game and level up at X point. I did it love it, my friend that played in my games, did it to his games also, because he like it so much.

I just got this hoping they be some good stuff in it and maybe clarification on the way disciplines work as per uses per day. As that is still very confusing with disciplines like pandemic faith, that grants domain powers, which some have their own users per day . very disappointing in it.

The Good
They added a good bit to the existing orders already and some have some really neat boons, that be acquired via Hellknight Obedience, but the abilities seem to come way too late. 12 hitdice +, the new disciples are Good to ok for the most party only one bad one in my opinion. I really do like the armor teleportation power, and Versatile Intimidation (which seem like it should be static, ability but if you read hellknight prc it should have limited uses per day.)

few interesting feats found under the Major order sections

Censoring Critical = Awesome even thou it late in the game. mute spell caster for 1 rd on passed save failed save is 1d4+1rd.

Relic Breaker is also pretty cool sunder something and maybe character the person on fire.

Caster’s Champion- is ok way of trying making up for removing SLA count as prerqu and not allowing more people to take arcane strike, even if this is limited times per day the fact that it is swift action make it a ok feat for martial. especial at earlier levels when you may not have a magic weapon. All you need is arcane caster in party, which most parties have.

The BAD
Favored Quarry is practically useless. a very small bonus to skill checks vs 1 type of enemy. which is based of your prc level (should be based off total character level or grant favored enemy bonus also.) (also is this limited times per day? See the prc need a rewrite and lot of clarification. so this was missed chance at doing that.)

Hell knight barding, useless, it is just a handy cap, does nothing for a mount at all expect slow it down. just stick to normal barding. (maybe it should have been magic armor that grant the mount the same hellknight armor powers while the hellknight was mounted.)

HELLKNIGHT LEATHER??? what is the point of this, cost more weights more and does nothing? umm does it count as hell knight armor allow hell knight to user his armor based abilities? should it also be master work like hell knight armor. It actual states in hell knight half plate it still counts as hell knight plate. This armor does not. Missed opportunity to branch in to maybe dex based hell knights.

Minor Orders, waste of space. I was really hoping for more detail with this, but all it is nothing but nice descriptions, and list of reckonings, but what are the boons that go with that order, what are their Order base Disciplines? No clue So I am guessing I just pick any disciplines I want. Unlike the major orders who are forced into certain Discipline choice at X level? for the boons it says you can use associated parent order but not that you have to, but there is a minor order that actual has no associated order. So just cherry pick what you want?

Order of the Ennead Star. warning this is really for GM use only. the scope to declare your challenge is narrow or to broad(GM has total discretion on this.) to you actual witnessing a crime being committed, and also chaotic person. The same for the orders other too abilities. So in the wilderness or dungeon you odds are going to be pretty useless. Also it does not actual work well with the hell knight Prc, as you are going to lose out on all your caviler stuff, and end up with a weaker mount. would have been nice to have a feat or abilities in the older that let the levels stack for counting for few those things.

this is called smart tactics and is normal.

There are a lot of problems with the Bracers of Falcon Aim, a price increase would have been the best fix. now they are worthless as others have pointed out.

That is not the real problem is not the Bracers themselves, it is the spell that is the problem, the spell should not be a 1st level spell. Edit the spell to the correct level it should be and the price would fix it self. The spell is 1st level but it is give the power 3rd level spell with the critical adjustment. See Keen edge. but the spell is also giving you +5 to perception checks and a bonus to hit. The spell level should be 4th level. Now make the Bracers as 4th level druid spell or 3rd level ranger and you have a fair price for the for what it provided. Much like how Blessing of Fervor is balanced against haste.

All items that use this spell is going to be off balance do to the problem with the spell level. They did not fix the problem this spell is still going to be massively used in the form of potions,Scroll and Wands, just not in the form of the bracers any more.

Leave the items alone and start fixing the spells.

Braces of Falcon Aim did not need a nerf they need a reasonable price increase to some where around the tune of 10K-25K

Anyone can use a wand with UMD

Problem with the cap of the free thinker is not the price it is that all those feats and ability that let your re-roll once a day are not even worth a feat. They are worth about half a feat or back ground trait. they are utterly useless but a small fraction of the time. Same way the original iron will in 3.5 was not worth the feat. now it is acceptable as a feat, works because pathfinder double the number of feats. Those re roll feats and ability should do exactly what the hat was doing. All day take the better roll. 5th edition does this with no problems with it advantage system.

This was a really bad nerf all the way around. as other pointed out Pathfinder is going to extreme side of nerfing instead of finding a middle ground.

bracers fix option should have been several times a day as swift action, or increase the price.

Brawling armor make it +2 mod for it to be worth a +3 mod it should work on all armor types not just light.

Cap increase the price a bit more.

quick runner shirt all it needed was the 24 hour bit at it's current cost. to prevent item swamping. It was already limited to once a day and swift action. Basically all it was did was allow you to change swift action into a move action limited to movement. which is funny because if you use unchained action ECO, it was totally use item. because swift,move and standard action are interchangeable. Which is a vastly better action system.

I am surprised boot of the cat did not get nerf also. take 20 point of damage from falling 20000+ feet and land on my feet for it's cost in gold. lol

Clerics are the standout for me..... the fundamental design is just so BLAH!

With the advent of Warpriests and Inquisitors, there really is no need for a cleric to remain a D8 HD....it holds the entire class back IMO

This why i was against the warpriest even coming into existence it did not fill any new roles. it just a cleric with less spell casting. it could have easily been just some kind of archtype. But in reality it the Cleric that is all screwed up it just did not convert over well from 2 edition it got way to buffed moving to 3rd edition. When it should have not existed any more and some kind of priest class full casting divine class should have been made instead, to be opposite the wizard, or the cleric should have been built the way the war priest is now. But that cat is already out the bag most people are not going to play a full casting class with d6 hp, less armor with the same spell list as the cleric. why do that when you get more hp better saves same spell medium armor decent attacks, ect. ect. ect. any change to the cleric out side a complete core rule change would see as nerf and complained about to no end.

I am quoting my self from another thread reply to someone said removing heavy armor pro from cleric where was a mistake.

"Ad&d and 2nd edition it made sense for cleric to have heavy armor. there was no spontaneous casting, spell to increase your combat ability where limited. Also your spells stopped at level 7 not 9. also no concentration so if you were hit while casting a spell you lost it so you need the ac to make sure you could keep the healer alive and keep him healing. they also had the 2nd fastest level up progression. it was need for survival of the group. if there was no cleric the group was dead. The change between old edition and 3.x and now, made individual survival possible. I actual been in several game with no divine casters and all are were fun and cleric was never needed. So the cleric could not be so confined to the healer only role. That was a very good thing, but turn the cleric in to a monster, they took away all his weakness from back then and gave him nothing but power. High AC, Domain powers, 2 more levels of spells(this was never needed), concentration (much need improvement), on demand casting for healing spells(need improvement but the class should have been spontaneous as whole and done away with prepared spells make more sense your pray to your god for a spell to help you as you need it.) and now on demand uninterruptable healing or AOE attack depending on alignment with a feat you can get both. Decent weapon selection, good attack bonus. No spell failure chance ever. The cleric is a monster of a class."

I think it is getting close to a time where it need to be update to 2.0 but a little too soon to do it now. maybe in 2 or 3 years. We are just starting to see things that would be a good ground base for a rebuilt system. Such as Unchained new action economy, background and condensed skill system. We also new and improved spell casting system based on how the Anarchist cast spells, with the ability to prepare and spam those spells.

These are all great things that gets away from the old clutter and clunky system, but they are not going to get much support or clarification unless they make a whole new version of the game based around them. Even has some good options but I don't see it getting much more support then it already has. but would be great to implement in a new core system.

There are a lot of things in the system now that are just clunky and don't work and will not be fixed unless they go to a new version due backward compatibility. Other wise after 6 printing of the core rule would have seen them fixed by now. Such as mounted combat, over run and charging, prestige class, multi-classing, overly complex grapple rules, caster martial power disparity. Cleric and Druid being over powered monsters, because they are both martial and full 9 level casters with no real down side. It also why you will never see a d6 hit dice divine full casting class, as the class starts out weaker then core options.

A new version of the game is required to fix those things and we are just test out things in the optional rules or add ons that can be good test for a base of a new system. So I say a few more years before it should happen.

this is kind of the same thing people where complaining about using two shields as weapons. I remember correctly one of the staff said it ridiculous and not possible in real world standards. Little while later someone post a video of style of martial arts that actual uses two shields in combat it did not look all that ridiculous or impossible. just because you can't visualize it does not mean someone else can not. Also it does not mean the rules fail to support it also.

you are really worried about real world physics in a world where people throw bolts of lighting out their finger, put a pinch some bat poop together and throw it and have it explode with the force of C4, and exist giant lizards that can, fly, breath fire and swim in lava but still get burned by boiling water.

Real world physics do not apply to the game only physics that the rules allows do, or as my friends call it DD physics. In this case you can wield a lance in 1 hand while mounted, thus you can wield another lance in your off hand.

One of my players is incredibly unenthusiastic about this system for a few reasons. He can't get past the "missing attack," since everyone caps out at 3 attacks. Or how Haste has "fallen from grace."

I tried to point out the default system's flaws, such as:
-Losing all attacks if you decide to Bull Rush/Overrun, and other Combat Maneuvers.
-Charging while Two-Weapon Fighting, and only getting 1 swing in.
-Moving 10ft. while Hasted, and getting 1 swing in. (despite being extra "fast").
-Only being able to Demoralize within Melee.
-Casting a Paladin/Ranger/Bloodrager spell, and losing all attacks (despite being "fighty")
-Setting yourself up for a Full-Attack only to kill the opponent on your first attack, and having the rest essentially wasted due to no one being in your reach.
-Being able to take advantage of a high Movement Speed in general.
-Many other things I cannot think of at the moment.

And to counter with some things the new system offers:
-Helping with all of the above mentioned problems.
-Allow some classes more flexibility with Abilities that require move actions (Tactician, etc.)
-Allowing more than 1 Swift Action per turn, without a non-canon house rule. (Magus and Warpriest rejoice)
-No more 1-round Casting time spells. They were rather tedious to use and easy to interrupt.
-Lots of other things I probably haven't discovered yet.

I think once we give it a shot, he may turn around and see that it's far better off for melee-types, and martials in general.

Curious why do you think haste has falling from grace? it does the same thing it did before. it just the now in the act system so you can't cast two spells with it. Extra act that must be used for and attack, the attack is still at highest bab because the spell says so, and bonus to movement + to ac ref saves. if anything haste has been empowered at freed. thus unchained. They whole section talking about haste is how to deal with extra acts effects. Not remove all the effects of the spell. the only part of the spell that is changed is the removal off the full attack action part since it does not exist and adding in of the limit that it grants an extra act that must use for an attack.

PRD wrote:

The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day.

He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work.

From the text above, the 4 hours when out adventuring are an alternative to the 8 or 4 hours of straight work, not an addition.

Nothing prohibit you from speeding up the work you do during the adventuring days.

The tools bonus is for crafted mundane items, not magic items.
I doubt they work with the valet familiar, but that is an interpretation, the rules are unclear. The text seem to imply that you produce a fixed value of finished items.

Prd wrote:

The wielder may take raw materials with a value equal to half the price of an object to be crafted, and produce a finished object in as little as 1 hour for an item with a final cost of 2,000 gp or less. For objects with a final cost of more than 2,000 gp, the wielder can perform 2,000 gp worth of work in a single hour, but only once each day.

The tools say. "only once each day". That limitation stay even if you hand them to another creature. They can be used once day (read the thread about the pearl of power, there was a guy arguing that they were usable once a day by each character).

6 skill ranks aren't a class feature. UMD hasn't a skill check for emulating them.

Note: your GM can choose to hand wave some of the limits or houserule about emulating a skill (after all it isn't so different as emulating a characteristic or being able to channel positive energy).

where does it say in the tool bonus is for mundane crafting? you can craft magic items using the appropriated skill/ Profession check or use spell craft. The tools can apply the bonus when using them on said check. So if you have a set of tools for weapon crafting and are making a magical sword, you do get said bonus if you are using craft weapon check to make the sword magical. the last line of the item confirm that they work on that check, that and combination of

"However, in the hands of a craftsman with 6 or more ranks in the selected Craft skill, the greater power of the amazing tools of manufacture becomes apparent. The wielder may use the tools to create items using the Craft skill much more surely and quickly. The wielder may take raw materials with a value equal to half the price of an object to be crafted, and produce a finished object in as little as 1 hour for an item with a final cost of 2,000 gp or less. For objects with a final cost of more than 2,000 gp, the wielder can perform 2,000 gp worth of work in a single hour, but only once each day. Only a single skill check is required to successfully complete the item, made on the last day of crafting and gaining the +4 circumstance bonus granted by the tools."

Cooperative crafting will grant a total +6 on said check at the end of making said magical item. Since Circumstance bonus stack with other circumstance bonus.

I will agree with Diego Rossi, I don't think you get to double the tools bonus gp amount per day, with cooperative crafting, you would need two sets of the tools to do so. I see it as being very specific just granting you one time bonus of 2000 gp of work in the hour. So when you do a rush job for the day and use 5 of your use able 8 hours you can get 4000gp of work done in that time frame, free up 3 of those hours to do other things.

Ha, there's a thought eater.

So new to Pathfinder, but not necessarily new to D&D...

huh. And I bet that last animal is some sort of dire mantis shrimp.

I am sure it is a Dire Mantis Shrimp Run for your lives. have your ever seen true facts about the mantis shrimp on youtube. Those things are scary!

it is do able, I had a ground of 14 before, I normally run games with a group of 8.

one options for doing this make up your own story but take maps and encounters from pre made adventures. this will speed things up for you.

ignore XP for leveling just level the group when you adventure says they should be x level.

double the size of the rooms in each map. if it says the room is 50 by 50 make it 100 by 100 this give more room for players and creatures to move around.

Ignore difficulty, make the game easier, it will be easier on them and you. this can be done by making all characters 25 point by or doing the add give them max hp per level.

Creatures since you have a huge party increase the numbers double, but reduce their hp, by 1/3, this will make the game go faster with the large group and make all the pc feel powerful. as they will all have a creature to target or help out with and defeat them quickly allowing everyone to get a turn. only make boss battle challenging. double the number of boss creatures max out hp on them.

remove complex unneeded rules like AOO even the ones from reach ones, they slow things down, charging, mounted rules and mounts abilities to attack.

treat mounts as a speed increase to the player only.

ect. and explain to the players since the group is so large you are cutting out some of the rules and features to speed up play and so they all enjoy it.

let them do crazy stuff that is not in the rules. don't even worry about if there is a rule about it, or a roll. Say rouge wants to jump off a hill and stab some one in, let them do it and give him sneak attack for it don't even bother with the acrobatic check.

basically don't get hung up on rules are trying to make it difficult, but be fair and consistence in any rulings you need to make.

I don't think Strong jaw stacks with Improved natural attack. I belive the min/maxers already figure out 16d6 was maximum

only when heated.

read the delay and ready action rules. 1st off you can only ready a standard action if your trigger does not happen with in the that rd or your next turn it is a forgo and wasted said action. Time uses bonus rds for you they function as full rds for you. Thus if you ready a action for something that does not happen in that round you lose it and go on to the next one. Considering you are the only one that can act in those rounds ready actions do nothing for you. if you delay you waste even more time to adjust when you go in the round.

but it does not mean they can't use them either, that what use magic device is for and it actual that make it very easy to use them. Easier then getting this feat.

Late access to stuff is a method of trying balance stuff in the game system it self. Also the game was never made to be balanced at all or abilities and power would be the same. It was meant to be group experience and use of team work the various strengths and weakness. Players verse environment.

An all balanced system was tried in 4th edition D&D it failed. People decided to play an unbalanced system called pathfinder instead and it became a success.

is the feat/Power really good yes no one will argue that. Was it need to be completely crippled as a option no. Could it have been tone down.
yes

+2 to all saves would have been perfect option and you know what that was the exact number and option That was used in D&D for paladins pre 3rd edition. Still would have been a good feat considering requirements, would have been something for everyone to run out and want to take no.

Was I reading the original printing of Divine protection wrong? everyone make it seem like it was easy to get. I did not think it was over powered. Was it really good yes over powered/broken I don't think so.

Yes it was a no brainier feat for oracles, cleric and war priest, but for other class to it, it require huge level dips to get it or a long wait for the with small dip for the other divine caster classes.

4 levels of war priest, 3 levels of cleric, 4 levels of oracle. to get the 2nd level divine spell portion of the requirement along with one of the other requirements of blessing/mystery or domains. That a huge dip for any other cha base character to get a bonus to your saves.

I glad they made this change before I got to 5th level with my Oracle of Metal, because I am not going to take it any more because it is worthless.

Maybe they should have weaken the feat a little bit to static +2 or +1 Sacred bonus to all Saves, or leave it as is and make the Requirements little higher like you need to be able to cast 3rd level divine spells. It strength is supposed to be equal to 1/2 2nd level power, but odds are most classes are not going to get it until 7th or higher anyway because of the level dips.

I think the real reason this took a hit and other feats in this books is that they encouraged multi classing and level dipping, and pathfinder really does not like you doing that.

as others have stated Scalpel would would have fixed the issues there was no need for hammer.

Automation is d20pro big thing, thus making the game faster and setup for on the fly encounters a lot faster also. Unlike other VTTs which require you to build macros,macro nesting or scripts. It is already included in D20pro. They are how ever going to add options for that.
Because of this focus there fog of war lack dynamic lighting. Which seems to me one of the only good things I have seen on other VTTs, but even then those VTTs require extra programing on GM part of setting up that lighting or making macros for it. Most of them quick and easy fog of war system preform just like d20pros. D20pro will be fixed that feature in new version at some point.

This is the point of the kick starter is to get these things add these sooner by be able able to higher more developers or just devote more time on the software.

It keep track of all things a character can do. Spell per day, bonus spells all skills, all your attacks and special attacks, there saves dc and when you use them everything is done automatically, with conformation being sent to gm to confirm fail pass or even adjust damage delete. DR and regeneration is already implemented into the system . Even critical hit effects such as shocking burst that only go off on a critical. you do not have to write a macro for any of it, you just input the number amounts.

Also hero lab and other pc character generators are supported can be imported into the system characters and monster built in those system into d20pro. Thus all monsters in pathfinder system if you have access to those things are already created for you. You just important them to the system from those program are from another gm or player on the net.

I never used roll20 because I found d20pro long before it. Does is require you to be online to use it? I could not find anything but seem like it does as you need to log in to accounts to access your information. Also the lack of software installation also suggest it requires online only as everything is saved in cloud format. Does it support LAN games? D20pro does install software, but does provide lan support for and that is what I use it for. The internet option is there and my players use when they physical can't make a game because work sent them out of town. They can still join the lan system d20 pro work with both networks seamlessly.

roll20 does have innate video and audio conference. d20pro you need extra software for now. but it is on the list of add ons for next year, could happen sooner depending on how this kick starter goes.

roll20 has a limit of 5mb size map (the video chanting may be the cause of this limit as there is only so much bandwidth internet speeds), d20pro size is limited by ram and bandwidth and video card. LAN games you can have 20meg maps load a lot faster with Gigbit switch and nic cards or AC wireless standards which are all faster then internet speeds, but this limits will be similar for internet play internet bandwidth being the huge limiting factor.

Roll20 does also have 3d dice that can be rolled across the table, and a sound board system. This is fluff stuff and take up time of develop of actually rules interrogation and automation function which are much better choices in saving time for both gm and players. but guess what it is on the list to add next year for d20pro. could happen sooner based on results this kick starter.

d20pro also runs in 64bit java giving the software more access to system ram and more use of your processor.

is roll20 really free? no there is a monthly subscription cost for extra cloud storage space(biggest gimic and scam in the world and is going to cost people tons more money then an actual portable thumb drive. with the end of net neutrality. But that a completely different topic and debate.)access to features early and so on. d20pro no extra cost I been running the software for 6 years now I have not paid for a single upgrade and even got to beta test every version upgrade be able to give input on changes and suggestion before official release of updates as do most users do. This is the first time I have actual had to pay for and upgrade and it $10 to upgrade $5 if you catch it during this kick starter. But this upgrade cost make sense as it is a complete rebuild of the systems core to make it even more flexible then it already is.

I have checked out all the other VTT that you pay for and all of them are not much different then roll20 and roll20 is partly free. So they are lacking compared to d20pro.

I watched a few videos on roll20 and while it seem and looks simple at first glance it is really clunky for DM and time consume during game time. D20 pro seem smoother especially after you learn the hot keys on keyboard. chat windows in roll20 seems to you to have to put in special commands to do whisper and tell functions ect, while you can do that in d20pro you don't have to that. It is just simple right click of the player name in the chat log or character on game table to add there conversation to log.

It not that roll20 is bad it is very good consider it is mostly free and has some nice visual to let the game still feel like a table top game and not so much a video game. It a fine line D20pro people have been walking between d20pro playing like a video game and just being a tool for dm and they done it wonderful by keeping the system open and trying not to confine it to just one rule set despite it original programing. I would recommended roll20 for people on a budget and don't mind extra work and programing macros and scripts ect., but you are going to spend 30 bucks anyway. I going to say go with d20pro, you get what you pay for and get to be lazy and save your self some time. That ultimately what it boils down to you pay to be lazy.

KainPen wrote:

I think you missing the point that Harsk is supposed to be successful, the cap does just that increased his odds. The price is right for the item, someone compared it to improved iron will, it obviously better then improved iron will but not a lot better because it always on ability is reflected by it only working on mind effecting ability, but not all will saves. Average cost of wondrous item that grants you a feat like is what 8k to 10k, so 12k is fair price for what it does since it is better than improved iron will.

Also in your example Succubi are very smart creatures 18 int, the moment they realize Dominate is not working on this person they would move to other tactics, more than likely flying about Harsk each summoning a babau to aid other action to help in grappling Harsk,It a...

Actually in my example one item (only one!) shuts down main abilities of monster. Ok, yes, they can fly... yes, wizard enchanter also can attack with staff/dagger instead of casting spells. You miss my point entirely. What you propose is (as I see it right now, please do not be offended, no intent from my side) - "Oh, it's not a problem that there is a one item that completely shuts down melee attacks, that barbarian can probably... start throwing javelins with crappy attack"

And about steal maneuver. Yes, it can probably work, but in order to do that they have to identify this item first? How do they know that this cap is Cap of the Free Thinker? :) GM whispered? :)

there are item and ability that can shut down melee attacks by giving Dr, as stated in my example of the succubus, Harsk has to roll a critical to even hurt them. They actual have a better chance of dominating him with all of that then he does of doing any damage. Adamantine armor on a armor master fighter can all but shut down the succubus melee attacks. So stuff does exist to do just that effect. Necklace of adaptation in another example this grants our right immunity to harmful vapors and gasses. Cost 9 k cheaper then the hat which does not grant immunity but lets you roll twice. There are many more items that do similar things, most of them cheaper. Why is the hat more expense as you stated it treats a broader range of effects. But it is not granting immunity. So the effect are not completely shut down. But they are weakened greatly.

You don’t need to ID the item to know what to steal it a logical assumption and a creature with Genius level intellect is going to guess something on its creatures head is going to protect him from mental magic or be increasing his mental resistance some way. It could be a head band of wisdom. No gm whisper are need and it is not meta gaming. It is logical guess to form when a creatures does not get dominated like expected. Especially after to Succubus try the same trick and it failed. It role playing an intelligent creature as such. It would be the first target and may be a one-time try thing. The item may not even be magical that get stolen but is a logical assumption by a very intelligent creature take a chance. Then trying it mental effect again. I would not expect that creature to keep trying that maneuver after that 3rd fail. As the next logical assumption would be that creature is just that resistance to mental attacks. Now a pc could have very well combined with the other item say belt of dex and the hat power in a belt. To throw off an intelligent creature. I would never expect a kobold or hill giant to guess that the head slot could be protecting him from mental attacks. They are just not smart enough to do so. So you play those monsters as such based on their intelligence.

Phhfffft! All this talk of yer fancy shmancy "recharging staff". Back in my day we used a staff and at the end of the day, you know what we had? We had a stick!

<pulls out a dead 2E staff and starts whacking people whining about it being difficult to recharge, let alone even being able to recharge, a staff about the thread>

you old coot you're telling these youngster wrong. Most Staff were rechargeable back in our day only a few were not. But I tell you want it was harder than then it is now. you young yipper snappers have no clue hard things were back then. Recharging any item required a saving throw at -1 penalty for the item and spell listed in the staff and enchant item or prayer cast on it. If it fail the save, guess what it crumbled to dust and was destroyed. You could not even use it as a stick. So we either used it as stick or tried to recharge it. Most of the time it was better to use that stick. Those were the days. when we beat monsters with those sticks, while walking 5 miles up hill, on glass in the snow bearfoot. Time were hard, did not have all these fancy feats you kids have now days and extra abilities and tons of attacks and AOO. we got 5 every 2 rounds at the most. You kiddies don’t know hard..

master craftsmen is a wasted feat considering you can get a caster level from a spell like ability via background trait or another feat or race and take the all the craft feats you that way and just use spell craft to make magic items and not be so restrictive. you could even do spell trigger one based off your spell like ability.

If you took Mythic version, I would not even bother with improved or greater, there no point in getting them mythic allow you to even get the level 20 bloodline power, combine with robe of arcane heritage for +4 to sorc levels and you got it at level 18. Also you don't have to put nowhere near as much in CHA. you waste 2 feat and possible ability points(that completely depends on build and class.) if you know you were going mythic just to get the 2 extra levels of power. It is really not worth it.

Second edition D&D wasn't as easy to learn for some as 3.0 was. The following is just opinion talk on behalf of myself and some of my longer lived RPG friends, and I should add the caveat that it is biased. -

1. THACO, To hit armor class zero. Basically this was the old armor class system, where lower numbers are more desirable. Players wanted to have a negative armor class number. Players new to the game, or mathematically challenged experienced players loved that Palladium Fantasy had a simplified Armor Rating you would have to exceed with your rolls, and this also happened with 3rd edition. (Yes, I preferred Palladium Fantasy to 2nd edition D&D. It was 3.0 light in many ways from the mid-80s until 3.0 was invented).

2. Race and class restrictions. Third edition allowed any race to play any class, even if there was a "favored" class. Second edition restricted certain races from playing specific classes. There were no elven paladins in second edition by RAW.

3. No feats and few skills in second edition. Most skill checks were abstractions or class features. No second edition thief, no ability to open locked doors without magic / bashing them. Skills and feats in third edition made characters of the same class much more variable from each other. (though it unintentionally may have shortchanged the rogue by the time Pathfinder was released).

4. Second edition had time magic shenanigans. Very cool for the caster, a big headache for a GM. Seriously? You go back in time and negate four rounds of actions?

5. No challenge rating in second edition. Experienced payers and GMs could gauge what they could deal with. New GMs might do something like throw an elder red dragon at first level characters, and wonder why it was a TPK.

6. No gish in second edition. Seriously, mages could never hold a sword by RAW. Entire gaming groups made a game about how a party of mages could guide swords that were repelled from mages. Seriously, mages could never hold a sword because some law of nature in 2nd edition said...

all that is all a load of BS or a bunch of house rules you got stuck playing by.

1. yes little hard for mathematically challenged, but guess what you are still THAC0 today the only difference is the numbers where converted to positive numbers and now THAC0 is THAC20. all they did was invert the numbers to positive and add 10 to default base AC that is why you start with AC of 10 before mods. the math was actual easier when you look at it as there were not 10 types of bonus and they all stack. they only effected what they said the effected also. no second guessing like there is now with the feats having to search through books for feats.

2.yes there were a few but most of them made sense. actual there where optional rules to remove restriction and the level limits which most people did. there were several elf paladins add in option books. why would a dwarf in that system highly resistance to magic even beneficial cast spells it made no sense for them to be wizards. the magic would fail in there hands. so the exiled at being fighters.

3. skill selected was huge you just did not get a lot of points. with 60 of them in the general category alone. +10 to 20 more in each class based category which any one could take if they spent 1 extra skill point on. So it was made for people to work team to have all the skills covered. Theifs could open magic locks there was most often a huge penalty to do it, also thief had the ability to read scroll, thus could use knock scroll to open stuff. so that was a non issue, if you where not allowed to do GM must have had plot reason behind it. There was no need for feats , because most of them where just normal actions you can do also monsters had between 4 to 7 times less hp then do now so you did not need to have them so you can do 150 hp in a round because that as much hp as a god would have had.

4. I don't remember any of that at all expect time stop which does the same thing now as it did then. I actual use these today in my games from time to time to help save a party from TPK. so stuff happens even today.

5.yes no CR and yes a DM can do that and they still can. if you look the CR system has all but gone away in pathfinder. and moved to static xp system much like OMG 2nd edition. which is how you based encounters in 2nd edition on how much xp a creature was worth or story value (your not supposed to win every encounter sometimes you got to run). if you look at pathfinder difference compared to 3.x a lot of the changes were to bring back stuff from 2nd ed and 1st ed.

6. this one is total bs a wizard could use a sword at a -5 penalty for it. (Complete wizards guide ) Kit (or archtype as they are called now)Militant Wizard
Weapon Proficiency: Required (choose one from of the following): Battle axe, bow (any),crossbow (any), dagger, javelin, sling, spear, sword (any), warhammer. These are different from the weapons normally associated with wizards, but they are common for Militant Wizards. Also, see the Special Benefits section below.
strait out the book. There was also the elven blade singer which actual cast spell through there long swords. much like the magus of today.

Here here was the real problem with 2nd ed. aging and made for a niche mark of nerds.(not a lot of math challenged in that category or target audience)This market was very limit thus not a lot of sale. this is why TSR was going bankrupt was selling to wizards of the coast, would help them game system reach broader target audience which it has.

here are the really system flaws.

1. multi class system/dual class system was horrible. It was made much easier in 3.x just add this to that much like how 2nd edition magic system was. you did not have to take this or that at x level then take half hp blah blah, you would also classes would level at strange times and there was a bit of a power vacuum with multi class, but this was made that way because the level limit restriction. It was overly complex and honestly not need much. Even now it not need today and pathfinder is just making new class or archetype to take place of that core concept from level 1.

2. Xp leveling system no one level at the same time, This make a lot more sense now then it did to me back then. but would be considers a flaw do to the fact people like leveling at the same times as another players. And should be brought back but can't because the current simpler multi-class system. This is how the weaker classes like the fighters and rogue and monk who everyone complains about where = to the ranger, wizard, ect. because they leveled faster, not only was it easier for them to level because of lower xp numbers but also because they often only had one primary ability score making it easier for them to get bonus xp. meaning they where 1 or 2 levels higher then the stronger classes. putting them on even playing field with them. either in attack bonus or saves and so on. but like i said this system does not function with the current multi classing system so a huge balance whole in the classes has just showed up.

3. locked in action, this could lead to meta gaming by dm easily everyone stated what they where going to do before they rolled initiative expect by dm. DMs would often just adjust to players action and screw them over the ones he did not like or to make it way to harder. Or stupid mistakes by players could lead to wasted actions. much like original final fantasy and dragon warrior games on Nintendo this was removed thankfully in 3.x the ad help speed combat along with none wasted action.

4. game was ruled by weapon attacks unlike now is ruled by caster. there was no concentration, and casting was basically a full round action due to lock in effect I stated in number 4. you could not move and cast a spell and if the caster his hit at any point while casting a spell due to poor initiative roll spell was gone and wasted. This was fixed with concentration and then over powered by allowing movement. I say that because before weapon attackers were allowed to move and full attack every round. if they would have left the movement in for full attack weapon attackers would be a bit more balanced with casters. This I blame is on the time change of rounds went from a full minute to 6 seconds. the justification is you can move that far and full attack in 6 seconds. but a caster can sure enough move that distances dig in spell pouch filled with all kinds of crazy stuff in it. take out what he needs to cast a spell material components, possibly a focus also and wave his hands in the air and chant something in the same time a guy comes up to and swings once. and maybe even a 2nd time thanks to meta magic feats. see the huge unbalance there. realistic to balance this 2nd edition flaw all was needed the concentration check and reducing movement to and attack to limit in a round which they did anyway.

5.)Bad for organized play due to rules on character creation could lead to huge ability score swings and limit class selection. much better with point by systems

I am sure skills and powers/book line caused some issue, I never played with those books, but I have looked them over, and can tell they were early beta testing book for 3.0 feat system. If any strange spell stuff as mention above came from anything it was that horror. They only came out with in 5 years of each other and 2 years before wizards bought TSR. gee name of the company was called wizards top selling game was magic at the time, I wonder if that why wizards and spell casters where giving such huge buff and weapon based and skill based characters were given a quick kick in the nuts. Those books may have been more balanced if TSR would have published new monster books with similar changes to them much like we see in 3.x monsters. But considering they only had 2 years before going under those books total screwed up the system.

another thing to point out AD&D was made for team play with everyone fulling and individual role. See first party in this picture my friend sent me today. while 3.x on was made for the 2nd party where everyone can do anything and their is no team roles to play. a lot of it has become who ball are bigger game by building the stronger character doing more damage or who can come up with the craziest crap. (hence the larger target audience and larger number of sales.) Team play vs play now which I have to say I have seen those very combinations in party number 2 games I have played since playing 3.x only thing was missing was the ogre mage monk.

Both are good and have there charms and flaws. all depends on what you are in the mood for it you, want a good team based RPG play 2nd edition

but make a few house rules changes to fix the flaws
1. do not allow skill and powers line all other books are fair game.

2. remove multi class and dual classing. if your player has a concept he wants to be from level 1, build it chapter 3 of the dmg gives you everything you need to know to make a whole new class. the xp to level balance this class with other classes.

3. remove level limits, but give human race something use full like in 3.x games like +1 to any ability score but can't go past 18 and +1 extra skill and weapon proficiency. humans got nothing, back then so why would you play one unless you wanted to be any class or reach any level. that is all they had going for them. if other races had no level limits people would have never played human. That the whole reason behind class limitation and level limits.

4. add concentration to the game to help the spell casters out. full attacks and movement as not as bad as it would seem in this version as only fighters, rangers and paladins got more then one attack in a round and the number of them is still less then any 3.x edition.

5. totally optional add a point buy system for generation ability scores to be a bit fair to all players. I would recommend using 25 or higher point by strait out of pathfinder, the reason i say so high is cause in the old edition, you usual did not get any bonus from ability scores unless they where 15 or higher and even something then none. unlike the new one you start getting bonus with a score of 12 and it goes up a lot for every even increase. it will also help player make the character classes they want.

6. Give clerics spontaneous healing found pathfinder the ability to drop any prepare spell for equal level cure one. this will help save parties from TPK and will let the cleric do a bit more then healing.

I am really surpised no one even took at look at the FAQs for this thread

see
"Deflecting Attacks: Does an attack that is deflected count as a miss?

It depends on the ability that is deflecting the attack.
For example, the Deflect Arrows feat says, "Once per round when you would normally be hit with an attack from a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it." It doesn't say the attack is a miss or is treated as a miss--instead, you take no damage from the attack. Because it is not a miss, effects that would trigger on a miss (such as Efreeti Style or Snake Fang from Ultimate Combat) are not triggered.
Likewise, the Crane Wing feat (Ultimate Combat) uses similar language and does not say the deflected attack is a miss or treated as a miss.
Note that the Snatch Arrows feat counts as a deflected attack--you do not take damage if you choose to catch the weapons instead of just deflecting it, and catching the weapon does not mean the attack was a miss.
Update 5/29/13: If the attack is deflected, not only does the target take no damage, but any other effects (ability drain, negative levels, harmful conditions, and so on) associated with that attack do not occur. If the deflected attack is a touch spell or other effect that requires "holding the charge," the charge is not expended. For example, if a ghoul's claw attack is deflected, the target is not subject to the ghoul's paralysis ability from the attack. If a shocking grasp touch attack is deflected, the attacker is still "holding the charge." The Crane Wing feat will be updated in a future printing of Ultimate Combat to clarify these issues."

If you miss your target you can't not then go for touch ac a miss is a miss. This means you do no damage even if physical contact is made. Even if was deflected which would involve a physical touch meaning touch ac was hit. you do no damage, you still hold on to your charge for the next round.

there was talk at the end of the playtest of turning the hunter into a spontaneous caster with ranger spell list added into the druid one and giving it bard spell progression. This will help make the hunter more viable in the long run and separate him from this parent classes. This actual is a huge boost to the hunter also as he needs to be able to spam buff and healing spells not only him but his AC and party, preparation format actually weaken the class. And it was easily over shadowed by parent classes. The devs seemed very interested in this and was highly considering the change. There is another problem with the hunter it can be the most broken class in the game if more than one is in the party. I with two of them in the group and they were very powerful because the team work feats have and exponential increase. Because the feats not only work with AC of the hunter, but they also work with other hunters and there AC, and it just keeps stacking on top of each other. See Cavalry formation in combination with shake it off and Coordinated charge in combination with seize the moment. Then add all them together, add large cat AC mounts. High critical range weapon. And you got instant blood bath with super high saves.

A Party of 4 hunters end you end up netting a nice +4 to all creatures saves. They attack in together, all have pounce and if someone critical everyone gets an AOO. The only thing stopping it from going to crazy is the ¾ bab and bab requirements on some of the feats and feat limit, but leveling dipping 2 levels in fighter sure help that out. Hunter on their own is middle range class if it gets the casting upgrade talked about on the end, two of them in a group makes a great class. 3+ it becomes broken.

Honestly, parents classes term may be dropped also. As it was highly suggested that the multi classing limit on the classes was only for the play test. The effects of any marginalization will be unknown until the book comes out. With the expectation of the Rogue, because they were not planning on making any more changes to slayer other than adding talents to them. The Slayer already kills the rogue in every way and as others have stated, the rogue was marginalized from day 1.

My build rely on either dazzling display+Shatter Defences or Feint+Vital Strike with a greatsword. The Omen Trait helps for action economy from time to time too.

Shatter defenses was useful for me, I don't see why you didn't like it for SA ? I'm not sure I understood what you said about flanking and stuff ^^".

I have plan some variations for this build, like replacing vital strike for cleave, or using firearms and the trait that makes you like one size category larger for intimidate when you have a firearm. Switching fighter to another class could be interesting.

I was agreeing that intimidating builds are fun.

as for SA I was just saying Shatter defense just gave the slayer another option or way to get SA other then flank. While Flank is actual the easiest way to do SA and the easiest way to get full attack SA.

SA just does not do as much damage as people think it does. You see the large of d6 and think man that a lot of damage this is awesome. but when you have such a limit way get getting those extra d6 it just mediocre compared to static bonus which most of them add to attack and damage rolls. You have something that can't get it reliable without party help that is also fairly inaccurate. The other problem with SA is that the classes that get it are very squishy, limited to light armor and are expected go first to a creature get one attack with very little damage increase if you hit. Now the creature is right next to you and it is turn. They full attack you and now you are withdrawing and looking for healing and it only the first round of combat. SA is by design very flawed. It is not just strong enough.

Use of shatter defense is good in the lower levels so sneak is fairly useful and fun when fighting humanoids and have a party that will help you out a lot. Because you get it more often. The game as whole kind of says screw SA after level 8 unless you fight humanoids for most of the game. creatures get bigger and are made up of mostly natural armor your already down accuracy cause your not full bab class and now guess what most of the creature have no dex to start with or very little so there flatfooted no dex ac is close to or the same as there normal ac you be lucky to hit once much less manage to hit more then once. This is why there are so many rogue suck threads. level dipping to get S/A not worth it most of the time because you lose something that a lot stronger.

As I said it boil down to the party, if you got a group, maybe with a Ranger or Fighter that has intimidate as free or swift action. they can take care of that part for you, then they could bull rush or trip the target for you making him easier to hit or giving you an Aoo before your turn even starts. Allowing you to really take advantage of Shatter defense and SA it very useful.

honestly sounds like the group is just going to fall apart because the dm is changing things on the fly. He should make print out of house rules. I did this for my group we have like 20 of them and the last one states all of these are subject to change and more can be added. I let them know in between games of changes and in one or two session when they will go in effect. Also if I make a major change to character allow the player to adjust his character accordingly even if that means allowing them full rebuild.

Example we started playing we did not understand attack action was specific type of action, we just thought it was when you attacked, so I allowed vital strike to work with charge and spring attack. We later found out that that did not work together, so I allowed the fighter in our group to completely rebuild his character since that was the characters main focus.

-4 to the attack roll as the monk is improvised weapon.

So if fighters get 12 bonus feats, but Rangers get 5, you have to ask yourself if 7 feats, Bravery, Armor Training and Weapon Training and the capstone ability are worth all the Ranger abilities as stated.

So the 12 feats thing applies to going to 20, how many feats do you think the Tracker package of Wild Empathy, Track, Endurance, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Camoflague, Hide in Plain Sight, Favored Enemy bonuses when tracking, Quarry bonuses when tracking and 4 Favored Terrains is worth?

In a point-buy system you'd easily see that the Fighter has spent less points on his character but is meant to keep up with the other characters.

He's spent 200 and the Ranger, Paladin and Barbarian have spent about 300 and the full casters have spent about 350 to 400 or more.

Yet 1 Level of Fighter is supposed to be "worth" 1 level of Ranger but no point-buy system would shake things out like that.

yes this is why in 1st and 2nd edition each class had its own xp table for leveling. The fighter leveled up faster than ranger and paladin, and the thief/Rogue leveled up the fastest. Casters also leveled up faster in the earlier levels but slowed down massively at upper levels, to support the power of high level spells. There was actual balance between the classes because of this. The classes where not meant to level at the same time and where made to work as team and each one fill a different role. 1st and 2nd editions multi classing system was not easy to use and it could be a bit over powered at times depending on race. To fix this and simplify the game and have it run at a set pace, we have the everyone levels at the same time xp tables, but all it does is show power difference and imbalance of the classes. Because they always stay weak.

Another major difference was rangers, paladins and barbarians got less attacks in a round and did a little less damage per attack compared to fighter. they all got the same number of skills back then and now they don't futher changing the balance even more.

There is no fix expect powering up the fighter by giving it more skills and maybe another ablity or two. I am happy with the fighter for the most part and I prefer to play them more then anything else. I enjoy the completely customization of them. I do find my self wishing I had a few more skill points not many. That why I really think if the fighter and even all other 2 skill point per level classes even the all powerful wizard should be getting 4 per level before bonus.

Mythic = Rocket Tag one hit kills. Don't allow it if you don't want damage to get crazy. Since that is a mythic AP, expect the roles to reverse them later levels. When monsters have the same ablitys and dual init which is supior to amazing init.