Magic Item Crafting Question


Rules Questions


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So, I am looking to Speed Craft magic items. Nothing specific yet just planning on crafting in an AP that supposedly has very little down time, so I am kinda looking at it.

Please check my rules-fu on this.

Magic Item Creation:
PRD wrote:

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp. For many items, the market price equals the base price. Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price. The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies), but it does increase the final market price.

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.

The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).

A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the under-construction item are wasted.

So what this means to me is that there are three basic ways of crafting in the core rule book.

1.) Work for 8 hours, and get 1,000 gp done per day.

2.) Work for 4 hours, take a +5 to the item DC, and get 1,000 gp done in those 4 hours. You may craft for a total of 8 hours, two 4 hour periods, and if doing so can get 2,000 gp per day.

3.) Work for a distributed 4 hours over an adventuring day and get two hours of work done, which nets you 250 gp per day. This cannot be hurried correct?

-

This would mean on a normal day a crafter may do the following, 8 hours adventuring, 8 hours rest, 1 hour to regain spells, 7 hours ???.

Should this not mean you could adventure while fitting in 4 hours getting 2 hours of progress (250 gp), then during the 7 hours of change use 4 hours for crafting at an accelerated pace for another (1000 gp) for a total of 1250 gp a day?

-

Then if you have a Valet familiar which granting cooperative crafting letting you double all amounts mean you would instead be getting:

1.) 8 hours=2,000 gp

2.) 4 hours and +5 DC = 2000 gp, twice a day = 4,000 gp

3.) 4 hours distributed gets 500 gp.

This would let you get 2,500 gp a day with one distributed session and one adventuring session correct?

-

Further how do Amazing tools of Manufacture fit in?

-

Am I able to do the above and use one of the three hours I have "spare" to use the tools and thus on a normal adventuring day gain 4,500 gp on items that match the craft skill for that item?

Does Cooperative crafting apply to the tools letting me get 4,000 gp done in an hour once a day?

If so does this mean my "adventuring" crafting is actually 6,500 gp a day?

If I have a ring of sustenance this should get a lot easier as well correct? That would make me 8 hours adventuring, 2 hours rest, 1 hour regain spells, 13 hours ??? right?

In that case with hurrying, tools and a valet familiar could I fit in 8,000 gp an adventuring day day?

I also assume that the amazing tools could not say be handed to my Familiar and then she could use them for another 2,000 gp progress?

Lastly if I do not have the required 6 ranks in a craft skill for the amazing tools, I can simply use UMD to emulate a class feature, I just need to get a 26 total correct?

Edit: Can more than one person work in shifts on an item to get more done in a day?

For example can I work 8 hours to get 4,000 GP and then while I rest my friend who also has a Valet familiar works for 8 hours, netting us another 4,000 gp of progress? For a total of 8,000 gp a day?

Sorry for the flurry of questions, just looking into this and ended up wondering.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
PRD wrote:

The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day.

He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work.

From the text above, the 4 hours when out adventuring are an alternative to the 8 or 4 hours of straight work, not an addition.

Nothing prohibit you from speeding up the work you do during the adventuring days.

The tools bonus is for crafted mundane items, not magic items.
I doubt they work with the valet familiar, but that is an interpretation, the rules are unclear. The text seem to imply that you produce a fixed value of finished items.

Prd wrote:
The wielder may take raw materials with a value equal to half the price of an object to be crafted, and produce a finished object in as little as 1 hour for an item with a final cost of 2,000 gp or less. For objects with a final cost of more than 2,000 gp, the wielder can perform 2,000 gp worth of work in a single hour, but only once each day.

The tools say. "only once each day". That limitation stay even if you hand them to another creature. They can be used once day (read the thread about the pearl of power, there was a guy arguing that they were usable once a day by each character).

6 skill ranks aren't a class feature. UMD hasn't a skill check for emulating them.

Note: your GM can choose to hand wave some of the limits or houserule about emulating a skill (after all it isn't so different as emulating a characteristic or being able to channel positive energy).


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Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:

The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day.

He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work.

From the text above, the 4 hours when out adventuring are an alternative to the 8 or 4 hours of straight work, not an addition.

Nothing prohibit you from speeding up the work you do during the adventuring days.

The tools bonus is for crafted mundane items, not magic items.
I doubt they work with the valet familiar, but that is an interpretation, the rules are unclear. The text seem to imply that you produce a fixed value of finished items.

Prd wrote:
The wielder may take raw materials with a value equal to half the price of an object to be crafted, and produce a finished object in as little as 1 hour for an item with a final cost of 2,000 gp or less. For objects with a final cost of more than 2,000 gp, the wielder can perform 2,000 gp worth of work in a single hour, but only once each day.

The tools say. "only once each day". That limitation stay even if you hand them to another creature. They can be used once day (read the thread about the pearl of power, there was a guy arguing that they were usable once a day by each character).

6 skill ranks aren't a class feature. UMD hasn't a skill check for emulating them.

Note: your GM can choose to hand wave some of the limits or houserule about emulating a skill (after all it isn't so different as emulating a characteristic or being able to channel positive energy).

where does it say in the tool bonus is for mundane crafting? you can craft magic items using the appropriated skill/ Profession check or use spell craft. The tools can apply the bonus when using them on said check. So if you have a set of tools for weapon crafting and are making a magical sword, you do get said bonus if you are using craft weapon check to make the sword magical. the last line of the item confirm that they work on that check, that and combination of

"However, in the hands of a craftsman with 6 or more ranks in the selected Craft skill, the greater power of the amazing tools of manufacture becomes apparent. The wielder may use the tools to create items using the Craft skill much more surely and quickly. The wielder may take raw materials with a value equal to half the price of an object to be crafted, and produce a finished object in as little as 1 hour for an item with a final cost of 2,000 gp or less. For objects with a final cost of more than 2,000 gp, the wielder can perform 2,000 gp worth of work in a single hour, but only once each day. Only a single skill check is required to successfully complete the item, made on the last day of crafting and gaining the +4 circumstance bonus granted by the tools."

Cooperative crafting will grant a total +6 on said check at the end of making said magical item. Since Circumstance bonus stack with other circumstance bonus.

I will agree with Diego Rossi, I don't think you get to double the tools bonus gp amount per day, with cooperative crafting, you would need two sets of the tools to do so. I see it as being very specific just granting you one time bonus of 2000 gp of work in the hour. So when you do a rush job for the day and use 5 of your use able 8 hours you can get 4000gp of work done in that time frame, free up 3 of those hours to do other things.


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I appreciate the responses.

I would like if any responses could explain how you got any ruling or stance, hopefully with rules quotes, I am not trying to be "RAW or else" guy, but I am trying to understand the rules as they are, which is why this is in the Rules forum and not the Advice forum.

I do appreciate that both of you have done so, just being clear for any future discourse.

Anyone else have any input?


By RAW, you cannot create magic items for any longer than 8 hours per day (24h-intervall). And by RAW, any "Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)".

My interpretation is that the limitation set on adventuring casters exist because of lack of time and the distracting evironment. If you want to create magic items faster you will need to deal with those two problems.

With a Ring of Sustenance (like you mentioned), you would be able to bypass the limitation of time which limits the adventuring caster to 4 hours per day, but even with 8 hours (8 during the night, or 4 during the day and an additional 4 during the night) this time is still done in an "distracting or dangerous environment", netting you half the amount of progress.

To be able to craft your maximum gold amount per day, you'll need to create a safe area where you can craft in peace. The section about the adventuring caster mentions that "[the time] is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.", which all are distracting areas.

You need to create a quiet, comfortable area where you can craft regardless of where you may be. Luckily, several spells can achieve this.

Secure Shelter, a lv 4 wizard spell, would certainly fit the bill for comfortable, and the 2h/level duration is perfect for a night of crafting.

Other lower level spells, such as Tiny Hut or even Rope trick could be used.

Just remember that you can't do anything but crafting during this time. So someone else would have to keep watch, if necessary.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Covent wrote:

1.) Work for 8 hours, and get 1,000 gp done per day.

2.) Work for 4 hours, take a +5 to the item DC, and get 1,000 gp done in those 4 hours. You may craft for a total of 8 hours, two 4 hour periods, and if doing so can get 2,000 gp per day.

3.) Work for a distributed 4 hours over an adventuring day and get two hours of work done, which nets you 250 gp per day. This cannot be hurried correct?

1) Yes, work 8 hours in a controlled environment, get 1000 gp/day.

2) No, work 8 hours in a controlled environment with +5 DC, get 2000 gp/day.

3) No, work 4 hours a day and net only 2 hours a day effort. When you have 8 hours effort you get 1000 gp for that 4 day block. If you work 4 hours a day in a controlled environment. You gain 1000 gp every other day.

All of this is spelled out in the item creation rules.

Covent wrote:
This would let you get 2,500 gp a day with one distributed session and one adventuring session correct?

There is no allowance for multiple sessions. Cooperative Crafting would double the gp results once you get a gp advancement. It would not make gp advancement in half as much time.


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James Risner wrote:
Covent wrote:

1.) Work for 8 hours, and get 1,000 gp done per day.

2.) Work for 4 hours, take a +5 to the item DC, and get 1,000 gp done in those 4 hours. You may craft for a total of 8 hours, two 4 hour periods, and if doing so can get 2,000 gp per day.

3.) Work for a distributed 4 hours over an adventuring day and get two hours of work done, which nets you 250 gp per day. This cannot be hurried correct?

1) Yes, work 8 hours in a controlled environment, get 1000 gp/day.

2) No, work 8 hours in a controlled environment with +5 DC, get 2000 gp/day.

So, you are saying that the quote

PRD on Magic item creation wrote:
This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.

means that you still work a solid 8 hour block but just get 1,000 gp of progress per 4 hours rather than 1,000 per 8 hours, and that this cannot be split up in any way, correct?

What about the line

PRD on magic item creation wrote:
If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks.

?

James Risner wrote:

3) No, work 4 hours a day and net only 2 hours a day effort. When you have 8 hours effort you get 1000 gp for that 4 day block. If you work 4 hours a day in a controlled environment. You gain 1000 gp every other day.

All of this is spelled out in the item creation rules.

I can see your point on item three, the rules never say that it translates to a gold value, they only say you get "two hours worth of work". I had simply translated that into gold value equivalent, but it is possible that you cannot do that. Can you hurry the 4 hour adventuring day session and get a 1,000 GP payout after two four hour adventuring days?

James Risner wrote:
Covent wrote:
This would let you get 2,500 gp a day with one distributed session and one adventuring session correct?
There is no allowance for multiple sessions. Cooperative Crafting would double the gp results once you get a gp advancement. It would not make gp advancement in half as much time.

I agree that cooperative crafting simply doubles the amount of GP crafted a day.

Are you saying however that if I have done no crafting in a day and find myself with four hours of completely safe and uninterrupted time I cannot choose to hurry and use those four hours to get 1,000 gp worth of crafting done which cooperative crafting doubles to 2,000 gp? Please assume in the question above that I will do no further crafting after those four hours due to needing sleep/partying/battling dragons in the sky...

Wonderstell wrote:

By RAW, you cannot create magic items for any longer than 8 hours per day (24h-intervall). And by RAW, any "Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)".

My interpretation is that the limitation set on adventuring casters exist because of lack of time and the distracting evironment. If you want to create magic items faster you will need to deal with those two problems.

With a Ring of Sustenance (like you mentioned), you would be able to bypass the limitation of time which limits the adventuring caster to 4 hours per day, but even with 8 hours (8 during the night, or 4 during the day and an additional 4 during the night) this time is still done in an "distracting or dangerous environment", netting you half the amount of progress.

To be able to craft your maximum gold amount per day, you'll need to create a safe area where you can craft in peace. The section about the adventuring caster mentions that "[the time] is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.", which all are distracting areas.

You need to create a quiet, comfortable area where you can craft regardless of where you may be. Luckily, several spells can achieve this.

Secure Shelter, a lv 4 wizard spell, would certainly fit the bill for comfortable, and the 2h/level duration is perfect for a night of crafting.

Other lower level spells, such as Tiny Hut or even Rope trick could be used.

Just remember that you can't do anything but crafting during this time. So someone else would have to keep watch, if necessary.

I agree, however, what about the line:

PRD on crafting magic items wrote:
Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items.

I always took this to mean that the normal camp that is made is fine for crafting items, as long as it is fine for regaining spells. I never thought any special spells were required. Now in play my group almost always uses those spells, I was just wondering what made you think they were required.

I do of course agree you can do nothing else while crafting unless you want to use the 4 hours for 2 hours of progress rule.

Yet again guys I am trying to understand this before I dive into it in game, so please know that I am not trying to be combative just inquisitive.

Thank you for your responses.

Bonus questions: If I cannot apply cooperative crafting to amazing tools of manufacture because they are not normal crafting does that mean I can do eight hours of crafting and use the tools? If not does that mean that the tools are crafting and as such get affected by cooperative crafting?

Sorry, this is just the only two ways I could parse these abilities and if I am mistaken was hoping someone could explain it to me.


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Quote:
Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items.
Quote:
[Magic Item Creation] is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).

I believe the second rule overrides the first in this scenario since a campsite out in the woods is certainly more distracting and/or dangerous than a laboratory.

And I am inclined to believe that most camps might not be a suitable place for preparing spells, the PC is just forced to do it on the cold ground instead of a shrine. (But don't tell anyone I said that, or someone might rule that preparing spells take 2 hours in the woods)

And regarding your question about Amazing Tools: I always interpreted the rules of Magic Item Creation and the creation of mundane items as completely different, so the limit of 8 hours of magic item creation does not count towards your mundane crafting limit (since mundane crafting isn't counted in hours).


I was assuming that amazing tools could be used to make magic items as long as the craft check was associated.


I believe you can, as long as you craft your magic items with the Master Craftsman feat (which allows you to substitute the spellcraft check with for instance Craft:Bows for crafting enchanted bows).


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I always assumed the line

PRD on Magic Item crafting wrote:
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item.

and the fact that all crafting feats list "Spellcraft or Craft (X) or Profession (X)" to mean you could simply use the tools on any item your craft or profession applied to. I further assumed that you could always substitute a Craft check for a Spellcraft check as long as it was one that was listed by the specific feat.

Now obviously things like Craft (Magic Item) or Profession (Magic Item crafter) are abusive, but something like Craft (Leatherworker) to make a Intricately embossed and detailed leather belt (+2 Physical) should work correct?


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Well, that would depend on whether or not that sentence is referring to the Master Craftsman feat or not. Since it doesn't, I think you're right. So if you are using the craft skill for your magic item, you can use the Amazing tools.

The "bad news" is that when you are creating a magic item with the item, I believe you resort to the rules of magic item creation, and do therefore have the 8 hour cap, which prevents you from using the item if you have already reached 8 hours of working.


Wonderstell wrote:

Well, that would depend on whether or not that sentence is referring to the Master Craftsman feat or not. Since it doesn't, I think you're right. So if you are using the craft skill for your magic item, you can use the Amazing tools.

The "bad news" is that when you are creating a magic item with the item, I believe you resort to the rules of magic item creation, and do therefore have the 8 hour cap, which prevents you from using the item if you have already reached 8 hours of working.

I would agree with this, but does this not mean I can use my valet familiars cooperative crafting and get 4,000 gp out of a tools?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
KainPen wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


The tools bonus is for crafted mundane items, not magic items.
I doubt they work with the valet familiar, but that is an interpretation, the rules are unclear. The text seem to imply that you produce a fixed value of finished items.

Prd wrote:
The wielder may take raw materials with a value equal to half the price of an object to be crafted, and produce a finished object in as little as 1 hour for an item with a final cost of 2,000 gp or less. For objects with a final cost of more than 2,000 gp, the wielder can perform 2,000 gp worth of work in a single hour, but only once each day.

The tools say. "only once each day". That limitation stay even if you hand them to another creature. They can be used once day (read the thread about the pearl of power, there was a guy arguing that they were usable once a day by each character).

6 skill ranks aren't a class feature. UMD hasn't a skill check for emulating them.

Note: your GM can choose to hand wave some of the limits or houserule about emulating a skill (after all it isn't so different as emulating a characteristic or being able to channel positive energy).

where does it say in the tool bonus is for mundane crafting? you can craft magic items using the appropriated skill/ Profession check or use spell craft. The tools can apply the bonus when using them on said check. So if you have a set of tools for weapon crafting and are making a magical sword, you do get said bonus if you are using craft weapon check to make the sword magical. the last line of the item confirm that they work on that check, that and combination of

"However, in the hands of a craftsman with 6 or more ranks in the selected Craft skill, the greater power of the amazing tools of manufacture becomes apparent. The wielder may use the tools to create items using the Craft skill much more surely and quickly. The wielder may take raw materials with a value equal to half the price of an object to be crafted, and produce a finished object in as little as 1 hour for an item with a final cost of 2,000 gp or less. For objects with a final cost of more than 2,000 gp, the wielder can perform 2,000 gp worth of work in a single hour, but only once each day. Only a single skill check is required to successfully complete the item, made on the last day of crafting and gaining the +4 circumstance bonus granted by the tools."

"Where it say that" is the wrong question. The right one is "where it allow the use of the tools for enchanting a magic item?"

And the reply is nowhere.
Without permission the major power don't work when enchanting magic items. The +4 to craft checks when using the skill to enchant a magic item work, but it is almost irrelevant when enchanting.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Wonderstell wrote:

By RAW, you cannot create magic items for any longer than 8 hours per day (24h-intervall). And by RAW, any "Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)".

My interpretation is that the limitation set on adventuring casters exist because of lack of time and the distracting evironment. If you want to create magic items faster you will need to deal with those two problems.

With a Ring of Sustenance (like you mentioned), you would be able to bypass the limitation of time which limits the adventuring caster to 4 hours per day, but even with 8 hours (8 during the night, or 4 during the day and an additional 4 during the night) this time is still done in an "distracting or dangerous environment", netting you half the amount of progress.

To be able to craft your maximum gold amount per day, you'll need to create a safe area where you can craft in peace. The section about the adventuring caster mentions that "[the time] is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.", which all are distracting areas.

You need to create a quiet, comfortable area where you can craft regardless of where you may be. Luckily, several spells can achieve this.

Secure Shelter, a lv 4 wizard spell, would certainly fit the bill for comfortable, and the 2h/level duration is perfect for a night of crafting.

Other lower level spells, such as Tiny Hut or even Rope trick could be used.

Just remember that you can't do anything but crafting during this time. So someone else would have to keep watch, if necessary.

You should look the different requirements for enchanting, too.

As an example, Creating Magic Armor say "To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled."
That mean that you are hammering the full plate, or sewing the leather armor or whatever is done with what you are crating.
Generally those are noisy or smelly activities, so maybe your friends wouldn't appreciate much your work if it keep them from sleeping.
As Wonderstell said, there are plenty of spells that help with that, so it isn't necessarily a problem, only something to consider.


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Interesting. I hadn't even considered that some crafters are forced to bring a portable forge with them during adventures. I just assumed everyone took Create Wondrous Item and sewed through the night...


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@Deigo Rossi

Regarding using the Amazing Tools of Manufacture they do have this line

D20PFSRD wrote:
The wielder may use the tools to create items using the Craft skill much more surely and quickly.

Unless you are saying you cannot use Craft skills to create magic items I would say that you can definitely use the Amazing tools as long as roll the Craft skill instead of spellcraft. For a specific example rolling Craft (Jewelry) instead of spellcraft for creating a Ring of Protection.

This is how I had read them. What specific line or lines makes you think differently.

Again, I am sorry if I come off terse I do not mean to, I simply want a clean streamlined understanding of this subject. I am willing to accept answers like "It's a gray area" or "Not really spelled out". My thanks for your engagement with this thread.

Edit: Yes the noise/firelight/smoke is a thing if you cannot just use spellcraft. Crafting is definitely best done in a prepared space.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Covent wrote:
I always assumed the line
PRD on Magic Item crafting wrote:
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item.

and the fact that all crafting feats list "Spellcraft or Craft (X) or Profession (X)" to mean you could simply use the tools on any item your craft or profession applied to. I further assumed that you could always substitute a Craft check for a Spellcraft check as long as it was one that was listed by the specific feat.

Now obviously things like Craft (Magic Item) or Profession (Magic Item crafter) are abusive, but something like Craft (Leatherworker) to make a Intricately embossed and detailed leather belt (+2 Physical) should work correct?

If can are use Craft (armor) to enchant a suit of armor and it don't require Master craftsmen, it only require the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. So you can benefit from the +4 to the skill of the tools when enchanting.

What you can't do without specific permission is to use them to produce 2.000 gp of magic items in 1 hour. and the item don't give that specific permission.


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And back on track we are!

Covenant. Since one of the crafting requirements for Amazing Tools is the feat Master Craftsman, I can't help but feel like they should be able to create magic items through the craft skill. You could probably convince your GM that it should work.

But.

Quote:
However, in the hands of a craftsman with 6 or more ranks in the selected Craft skill, the greater power of the amazing tools of manufacture becomes apparent. The wielder may use the tools to create items using the Craft skill much more surely and quickly.

I believe this means that you are using the power of the tools to create the item, not that the tools are helping you make it faster.

The Cooperative Crafting feat allows one to

Quote:
/../ assist another character in crafting mundane and magical items.

Since you aren't the one who is creating the item, Cooperative Crafting won't help you.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Covent wrote:

@Deigo Rossi

Regarding using the Amazing Tools of Manufacture they do have this line

D20PFSRD wrote:
The wielder may use the tools to create items using the Craft skill much more surely and quickly.

Unless you are saying you cannot use Craft skills to create magic items I would say that you can definitely use the Amazing tools as long as roll the Craft skill instead of spellcraft. For a specific example rolling Craft (Jewelry) instead of spellcraft for creating a Ring of Protection.

This is how I had read them. What specific line or lines makes you think differently.

Again, I am sorry if I come off terse I do not mean to, I simply want a clean streamlined understanding of this subject. I am willing to accept answers like "It's a gray area" or "Not really spelled out". My thanks for your engagement with this thread.

Edit: Yes the noise/firelight/smoke is a thing if you cannot just use spellcraft. Crafting is definitely best done in a prepared space.

Check the craft skill and find where it allow you to make magic items. Nowhere.

What allow you to make magic items is the appropriate craft feat.
The feat work even if you don't have any skill.
A wizard with 20 intelligence (and probably 3 wisdom) has decided that he want to craft an armor using the Craft armorer skill, not caring that he has 0 ranks in it.
Well, if he has the feat he can enchant without problems a item requiring a CL of 10. DC 15, he take 10 and add a +5 for his intelligence. He will always be successful. Using masterwork tools he can make CL 12 without problems.

About the edit: Spellcraft or Craft armor is irrelevant. You always need that right equipment, check the entries of the different craft feats in the Magic Item Creation section of the rules.

Edit: no problem with your questions, you are trying to get some explanation on one of the most complicated section of the rules, and one that is very dependent on GM adjudication.

BTW, read this section of Ultimate campaign: Magic Item Creation, there is some further information.


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Oh, and another thing you might want to consider, Covent.

Quote:
In the hands of a casual wielder, these items simply appear to be magically enhanced masterwork tools for a specific Craft skill (determined randomly), granting a +4 circumstance bonus on such skill checks.
Quote:
Only a single skill check is required to successfully complete the item, made on the last day of crafting and gaining the +4 circumstance bonus granted by the tools.

This does seem to indicate that you can only use the Amazing Tools' ability for items which needs that specific craft skill. And since the corresponding craft skill is rolled randomly, you might spend quite a sum of gold before you get any craft skill you want.


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@Wonderstell

I had seen it as the crafter is still crafting since it says "The wielder may" not saying "This item produces". I was thinking of the amazing tools in the same way as power tools and a CAD program. Simply tools to enhance the existing skill of the crafter and nothing without him.

It does have the line

D20PFSRD wrote:
For objects with a final cost of more than 2,000 gp, the wielder can perform 2,000 gp worth of work in a single hour, but only once each day.

Which to me indicates the wielder is performing the work not the tools. You also still must make the craft check at the end.

@Deigo Rossi

Perhaps I am not expressing myself clearly.

I agree that without the magic item crafting feats the Craft (X) skills cannot produce magic items.

However when you take a magic item crafting feat it gives you the option to use your craft skill to create magic items as long as it is listed as one of the appropriate craft skills for that feat, correct?

That would mean that if I use an appropriate craft skill, say Craft (Armor) to create a +2 armor, it would normally take me four non-rushed 8 hour days to craft it, correct?

The tools use the same Craft (Armor) check and make it into two one hour days as far as I can see.

The only restriction is that they can only be used for craft skill checks, meaning you cannot use spellcraft to use them to make magic items.

Where is this not true?

Thank you both for your responses and for the link. :-)


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Rolled randomly when you find them randomly.

If you buy them, or craft them yourself, you can of couse decide which skill your tools willbe for.


Wonderstell wrote:

Oh, and another thing you might want to consider, Covent.

Quote:
In the hands of a casual wielder, these items simply appear to be magically enhanced masterwork tools for a specific Craft skill (determined randomly), granting a +4 circumstance bonus on such skill checks.
Quote:
Only a single skill check is required to successfully complete the item, made on the last day of crafting and gaining the +4 circumstance bonus granted by the tools.
This does seem to indicate that you can only use the Amazing Tools' ability for items which needs that specific craft skill. And since the corresponding craft skill is rolled randomly, you might spend quite a sum of gold before you get any craft skill you want.

I would simply look for amazing tools of Craft (What I need) and as long as I am in a metropolis I should have 75% chance to find them correct?

I assume one created the Craft is set. I also assume if I make them myself my GM will simply let me select a Craft, if not back to buying them.


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@Guru-Meditation

The description of the Headband of Vast Intelligence calls out that you, the creator, chose what skill ranks it has

Quote:
These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.

The Amazing Tools, on the other hand, specifically says that it is rolled randomly. So for most items, you are correct, but the Amazing Tools are an exception.

@Covent

In that case (the metropolis), your GM should roll for what craft skill the Amazing Tools are connected to. So you might not lose "gold", per se, but you'll have to make the check every week until your GM rolls the right one.


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Aaaand to sum it up.

If you can't use the item to craft magic items:
Tough luck.

If you can, it is one of the following:

If it is the Amazing Tools' power which is doing the magic item:
You could create 2k worth of an item during 1 hour, counting towards your daily limit of magic it creation hours, which allows you to create 4k worth of an item per day. (With cooperative crafting and speed-up)

If Amazing Tools boosts your abilities for 1 hour:
Yes. Cooperative Crafting would help, and you just created 4k worth of an item in 1 hour. But since you've used 1 hour of your 8 per day, you can only work an additional 4 (since item creation needs to be done in blocks of 4 hours). With your valet familiar, this would mean you create 4k the first hour, and then 2k during 4 hours, for a total of 6k per day.

This would mean you get an additional 2k worth of an item done per day, which is what the item was designed to do (who'd had guessed?).

So it all boils down to whether or not you believe it can be used, and what the item does.

Personally, I believe it can be used for magic items, and I am kind of torn whether or not it is the item who boosts you or not.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Covent wrote:


@Deigo Rossi

Perhaps I am not expressing myself clearly.

I agree that without the magic item crafting feats the Craft (X) skills cannot produce magic items.

However when you take a magic item crafting feat it gives you the option to use your craft skill to create magic items as long as it is listed as one of the appropriate craft skills for that feat, correct?

That would mean that if I use an appropriate craft skill, say Craft (Armor) to create a +2 armor, it would normally take me four non-rushed 8 hour days to craft it, correct?

Up to here we agree. You can benefit from the +4 when craftin the appropriate magic item.

Covent wrote:


The tools use the same Craft (Armor) check and make it into two one hour days as far as I can see.

The only restriction is that they can only be used for craft skill checks, meaning you cannot use spellcraft to use them to make magic items.

Where is this not true?

Here is the problem.

1) the item description never say that the major power of the tools can be used to enchant or craft magic items.
Without that permission it can't be used for that.
The item change what you can create with the craft skill. to extend that to the Craft (whatever) feat you need that to be spelled in the item description.

2) The major power say:
"The wielder may take raw materials with a value equal to half the price of an object to be crafted, and produce a finished object in as little as 1 hour for an item with a final cost of 2,000 gp or less. For objects with a final cost of more than 2,000 gp, the wielder can perform 2,000 gp worth of work in a single hour, but only once each day."
There are a few things in that description:
a) may take raw materials with a value equal to half the price of an object to be crafted, and produce a finished object. compare with:

Craft skill wrote:

To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.

...
3. Pay 1/3 of the item's price for the raw material cost.

and

Magic Item Creation wrote:
Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp.

Magic supplies vs raw materials. The tools call for raw materials.

Side note: notice how it make you use more raw materials when making a mundane item, 1/2 instead of 1/3.

b) "object to be crafted, and produce a finished object".
It speak of a crafting an object, a term used wen making the physical object. When the rule speak of enchanting a magical item they use the term "create" or sometime "enchant". The feat name is normally "craft something", but the descriptions of the act use those therms.

Those points are enough for me to say that the major power of the tools don't work when enchanting a magic item, but your interpretation and that of your GM can be different. The description isn't accurate enough for me to be 100% sure that I am right.

Last thing, there is the item price. If that was an item that allow a traveling adventurer to make 2.000 gp of magic item every day, 12.000 gp is a trash bin price. It would mean changing item crafting from something that is done very slowly or in a secure environment to something that is done everywhere with ease.
Evaluating what a item do on the basis of the price isn't generally a good idea, but it give us an additional tool in our interpretation.


Thank you both, I will simply have to ask my GM about the amazing tools, as I do admit I feel they are very much a grey area.

Now setting them aside I am wondering two things.

1.) Can you hurry the "During adventuring" crafting? I.E. normal is 4 hours distributed = 2 hours progress, can you hurry so 4 hours distributed +5 DC = 4 hours progress?

2.) Can you do multiple sessions of crafting as long as each is an uninterrupted 4 hour block and you craft for no more than 8 hours? I.E. Can you craft during a period of 12:00-16:00 then when you get time later that day craft from 19:00-23:00? If not why is there this line in crafting?

PRD on Magic Item Crafting wrote:
If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks.

My thanks to all who comment and help to clear this up for me.


@Diego Rossi

Good call with the magic supplies/raw materials, that one made it clear!

@Covent

1.) The rules for acceleration only mentions decreasing the 8 hours to 4 hours.

Quote:
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price/.../ This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.

It is not a general rule such as "you can create double the amount of gold value by increasing the DC by 5". It specifically mentions 8 hours to 4. So by RAW, you cannot accelerate the 4 hours the adventuring caster have.

2.) Yes. You normally create magic items in uninterrupted 4-hours blocks, so you can divide these blocks and do the crafting at different times during the day. But remember that the adventuring caster is a special case, and as such, does not follow the normal rules.

The adventuring caster rules are used when the player is on the hike 24/7. He doesn't really have any free time for crafting, so he finds time when the party is eating, washing, hunting etc. So the moment you have free time on your hands, you're not really the adventuring caster.

For instance: You have just arrived to a city and the bard is out trying to gather information, which leaves you with 5 hours since he/she fails the first check. During this time, you decided to stay in your hotel room and craft items. You are not using the adventuring caster creation rules since you have time to spare.

The trick to doing crafting while adventuring is to avoid the rules for the adventuring caster by using a ring of sustenance, and the like.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Covent wrote:

Thank you both, I will simply have to ask my GM about the amazing tools, as I do admit I feel they are very much a grey area.

Now setting them aside I am wondering two things.

1.) Can you hurry the "During adventuring" crafting? I.E. normal is 4 hours distributed = 2 hours progress, can you hurry so 4 hours distributed +5 DC = 4 hours progress?

2.) Can you do multiple sessions of crafting as long as each is an uninterrupted 4 hour block and you craft for no more than 8 hours? I.E. Can you craft during a period of 12:00-16:00 then when you get time later that day craft from 19:00-23:00? If not why is there this line in crafting?

PRD on Magic Item Crafting wrote:
If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks.
My thanks to all who comment and help to clear this up for me.

As I read the rules:

You can accelerate the "crafting while adventuring" taking the +5 to the DC and doubling the 250 of item progression , making it 500 gp.

You can't combine the 4 hours of "crafting while adventuring" with 4 hours of uninterrupted work. Those 4 hours of "while adventuring" represent using your spare time. Saying that you use your spare time and a regular shift seem stretching the rules. But I admit that there isn't a clear prohibition against that.

with a ring of sustenance you can take an uninterrupted block of 4 hours from 4 am to 8 am., move away, trek some hours, have lunch, explore a dungeon for an hour, set up camp, rest a bit, then enchant from 7 pm to 11 pm and then sleep 2 hours.
Or, more normally, without the ring, wake at 6.30 am, have breakfast, memorize your spells then start enchanting at 8.00 am, at 12 am take a break, have lunch and unwind a bit, then at 2 pm start working again to complete your working day at 6 pm.
It simply say that you don't have to take a 8 hours uninterrupted shift, but you can break your working hours in 2 4 hours shifts.

if you don't take the +5 a 4 hour shift is worth 1/2 day of work, i.e. 500 gp, if you take the +5 it is worth 1.000 gp.

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