4 Natural Attacks, Unarmed Strike, and Two-Weapon Fighting: How many attacks on Full Attack?


Rules Questions


I have a character with the following:

2 Primary Claw Attacks
1 Primary Bite Attack
1 Primary Gore Attack
Improved Unarmed Strike
Entire Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Tree
Multiattack

Now, my question is elaborated as follows:

Which of these attacks do I not get:

Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3
Off Hand: +18/+13/+8
Natural Attacks: +18/+18/+18/+18

This would be a total of 11 attacks on a full attack.

The reason I worry that I would not get all 11 attacks is that I'm not really confident on how Unarmed Strikes work with Natural attacks like Bite and Claw.

It's my understanding that Unarmed Strikes includes any non-weapon bodily method of dealing damage, like a punch or a kick, but I don't know if this prevents me from using my natural attacks in some way. For example, using a Sword prevents me from using one of my claws.


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You're correct in your understanding.
But since IUS can be kicks, and you have no weapons on your feat, you're good to combine them.


your number of attacks is correct, you can add another one in there on the main hand if you are hasted ect. Note all the natural attack when used with full attack with weapons, are treated as secondary so they are at -5 and do half str damage, Multi attack should reduce that -5 to -2 or -3. I don't remember the amount it reduces it buy.


I believe you get all of them. Unarmed strikes should not prevent you from using your natural attacks. These strikes can come from any part of your body and thus do not require you to attack in such a way that you couldn't use one of your natural attacks.

Regardless of that fact, you actually can strike with the same body part that has a natural attack. The reason that using a weapon keeps you from using a natural attack isn't because you attacked with the weapon, but because you're holding something in your hand. If you attacked with a sword for example, and then as a free action dropped the sword, you would then be free to attack with a claw.


Amrel wrote:

I believe you get all of them. Unarmed strikes should not prevent you from using your natural attacks. These strikes can come from any part of your body and thus do not require you to attack in such a way that you couldn't use one of your natural attacks.

Regardless of that fact, you actually can strike with the same body part that has a natural attack. The reason that using a weapon keeps you from using a natural attack isn't because you attacked with the weapon, but because you're holding something in your hand. If you attacked with a sword for example, and then as a free action dropped the sword, you would then be free to attack with a claw.

That's actually not true. The rule we've been given is if you've used that limb to attack already. So a wielded weapon attack stops any claws used to wield the weapon, even if you free action drop it.

Reason is you can switch grip as free action. So Greatsword attack, free hold with one hand and attack with claw, free switch hands and attack with other claw. This is what they want to not allow.


The original plan was to be a Barbarian Two-Weapon Fist-fighting Raging
Fiend with +3 Furious Vicious Amulet of Mighty Fists, but then I realized I'd be dealing 11d6 to myself on every full attack. 12, if I'm hasted.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
COMBAT:Natural Attacks wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

Your full attack looks like this (assuming light weapons):

Main hand: +16/+11/+6/+1 (this has -2 for TWF)
Off hand: +16/+11/+6 (also -2 twf). These do 1/2 Str unless you have double slice.
Bite +16, half Str damage
Gore +16, half Str damage
Claws +16/+16 (only if using unarmed attacks with feet), half Str damage

As a GM, I would not allow the Claws for sure, and I would force TWF pentalties to stack w/secondary attack pentalties for net -4. Actually I wouldn't let you take Miltiattack. That's me.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Amrel wrote:

I believe you get all of them. Unarmed strikes should not prevent you from using your natural attacks. These strikes can come from any part of your body and thus do not require you to attack in such a way that you couldn't use one of your natural attacks.

Regardless of that fact, you actually can strike with the same body part that has a natural attack. The reason that using a weapon keeps you from using a natural attack isn't because you attacked with the weapon, but because you're holding something in your hand. If you attacked with a sword for example, and then as a free action dropped the sword, you would then be free to attack with a claw.

That's actually not true. The rule we've been given is if you've used that limb to attack already. So a wielded weapon attack stops any claws used to wield the weapon, even if you free action drop it.

Reason is you can switch grip as free action. So Greatsword attack, free hold with one hand and attack with claw, free switch hands and attack with other claw. This is what they want to not allow.

Whoops, you're completely right, my bad!

Scarab Sages

j b 200 wrote:


As a GM, I would not allow the Claws for sure, and I would force TWF pentalties to stack w/secondary attack pentalties for net -4. Actually I wouldn't let you take Miltiattack. That's me.

As a GM, you're free to make any house rules you wish, but the rules explicitly state that unarmed strikes can be kicks or head butts and do not require hands. There are also several bestiary entries for monsters that mix unarmed strikes and natural attacks.

The rules allow this. Disallowing it is a house rule.


j b 200 wrote:
COMBAT:Natural Attacks wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

Your full attack looks like this (assuming light weapons):

Main hand: +16/+11/+6/+1 (this has -2 for TWF)
Off hand: +16/+11/+6 (also -2 twf). These do 1/2 Str unless you have double slice.
Bite +16, half Str damage
Gore +16, half Str damage
Claws +16/+16 (only if using unarmed attacks with feet), half Str damage

Why are the main hand attacks doing -4 exactly? Unarmed strikes are Light weapons, so TWF makes them -2.


j b 200 wrote:
COMBAT:Natural Attacks wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

Your full attack looks like this (assuming light weapons):

Main hand: +16/+11/+6/+1 (this has -2 for TWF)
Off hand: +16/+11/+6 (also -2 twf). These do 1/2 Str unless you have double slice.
Bite +16, half Str damage
Gore +16, half Str damage
Claws +16/+16 (only if using unarmed attacks with feet), half Str damage

As a GM, I would not allow the Claws for sure, and I would force TWF pentalties to stack w/secondary attack pentalties for net -4. Actually I wouldn't let you take Miltiattack. That's me.

If it's a Monk Unarmed Strike, they always get full Strength on all damage rolls. Also, you're implementing a -4 for the Main Hand/Off Hand, when Unarmed Strikes are always Light Weapons (and the penalty from Natural Weapons/Multi-Attack doesn't apply either).

In addition, because you are using Unarmed Strikes in conjunction, your Natural Weapons all suffer a -2 (which is -4 total, including TWF penalties, which would apply), and you only get Half Strength.

Lastly, Multiattack's requirements are that you have 3 or more Natural Weapons, which he meets for requirements, so he is certainly within the realm of being able to take the feat. Saying he can't take Multiattack would be a GM FIAT call, which is fine. But by the rules, he meets and can take the feat. (In fact, he would exceed that requirement.)


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
j b 200 wrote:
COMBAT:Natural Attacks wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

Your full attack looks like this (assuming light weapons):

Main hand: +16/+11/+6/+1 (this has -2 for TWF)
Off hand: +16/+11/+6 (also -2 twf). These do 1/2 Str unless you have double slice.
Bite +16, half Str damage
Gore +16, half Str damage
Claws +16/+16 (only if using unarmed attacks with feet), half Str damage

As a GM, I would not allow the Claws for sure, and I would force TWF pentalties to stack w/secondary attack pentalties for net -4. Actually I wouldn't let you take Miltiattack. That's me.

If it's a Monk Unarmed Strike, they always get full Strength on all damage rolls. Also, you're implementing a -4 for the Main Hand/Off Hand, when Unarmed Strikes are always Light Weapons (and the penalty from Natural Weapons/Multi-Attack doesn't apply either).

Monk Flurry cannot be used with Natural Weapons.


There's an argument for the head being counted as a limb so you can't use multiple natural weapons attached to the head (eg. Bite, Gore, Horns, etc). Others argue that Bite is attached to the mouth while Gore (presumably with horns) is an appendage on the head (like wings or a tail) and that they wouldn't interfere with one another.

Additionally, TWF penalties only apply to your main-hand and off-hand attacks. The attacks with Natural Weapons are neither so you wouldn't apply the -2 TWF penalty to the Natural Weapons.

So your entire routine, presuming you're using your legs for the Unarmed Strikes and that Bite and Gore are not considered conflicted regarding limb usage, would be just as jb200 indicated above.


Axoren wrote:

I have a character with the following:

2 Primary Claw Attacks
1 Primary Bite Attack
1 Primary Gore Attack
Improved Unarmed Strike
Entire Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Tree
Multiattack

Now, my question is elaborated as follows:

Which of these attacks do I not get:

Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3
Off Hand: +18/+13/+8
Natural Attacks: +18/+18/+18/+18

This would be a total of 11 attacks on a full attack.

The reason I worry that I would not get all 11 attacks is that I'm not really confident on how Unarmed Strikes work with Natural attacks like Bite and Claw.

It's my understanding that Unarmed Strikes includes any non-weapon bodily method of dealing damage, like a punch or a kick, but I don't know if this prevents me from using my natural attacks in some way. For example, using a Sword prevents me from using one of my claws.

Your numbers are right. Just remember that your off hand and all natural attacks would be at half Str to damage.

Unarmed strikes use the rules for manufactured weapons except for being a target of the Magic Weapon spells.
The FAQ says that you can TWF with just unarmed strikes.
TWF penalties apply only to main and off-hand weapons. Natural weapons are neither.

Scarab Sages

Kazaan wrote:

There's an argument for the head being counted as a limb so you can't use multiple natural weapons attached to the head (eg. Bite, Gore, Horns, etc). Others argue that Bite is attached to the mouth while Gore (presumably with horns) is an appendage on the head (like wings or a tail) and that they wouldn't interfere with one another.

Additionally, TWF penalties only apply to your main-hand and off-hand attacks. The attacks with Natural Weapons are neither so you wouldn't apply the -2 TWF penalty to the Natural Weapons.

So your entire routine, presuming you're using your legs for the Unarmed Strikes and that Bite and Gore are not considered conflicted regarding limb usage, would be just as jb200 indicated above.

Gargoyles have both bite and gore attacks and get to use them both in full attacks.


Imbicatus wrote:
Kazaan wrote:

There's an argument for the head being counted as a limb so you can't use multiple natural weapons attached to the head (eg. Bite, Gore, Horns, etc). Others argue that Bite is attached to the mouth while Gore (presumably with horns) is an appendage on the head (like wings or a tail) and that they wouldn't interfere with one another.

Additionally, TWF penalties only apply to your main-hand and off-hand attacks. The attacks with Natural Weapons are neither so you wouldn't apply the -2 TWF penalty to the Natural Weapons.

So your entire routine, presuming you're using your legs for the Unarmed Strikes and that Bite and Gore are not considered conflicted regarding limb usage, would be just as jb200 indicated above.

Gargoyles have both bite and gore attacks and get to use them both in full attacks.

Its a really common misconception that you can only have natural attack per limb, but its not an actual rule. The rule is that you can only have one instance of a natural weapon per applicable limb. So a head can have both a bite and gore with no issue, since those are two different types of natural weapons. A single head, however, could not have 2 bites or 2 gores. Its a little less clear if wing/arms (i.e. bat wings) can have both wing buffets and claw, but that's a similar case.


That is a lot of attacks!

Pardon me for jumping in with a related 3rd party question-

What does Multiattack do for the original list of attacks:

Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3
Off Hand: +18/+13/+8
Natural Attacks: +18/+18/+18/+18

- as in which of them would be considered secondary attacks?

Been pondering making a natural attacks character but am finding it a little complex to figure out all the do's and do not's.


Lostcause78 wrote:

That is a lot of attacks!

Pardon me for jumping in with a related 3rd party question-

What does Multiattack do for the original list of attacks:

Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3
Off Hand: +18/+13/+8
Natural Attacks: +18/+18/+18/+18

- as in which of them would be considered secondary attacks?

Been pondering making a natural attacks character but am finding it a little complex to figure out all the do's and do not's.

all the naturals are secondary and the numbers off if you are using two weapon fighting in combination with as I stated above and many others. the original total numbers are wrong, but the number of attacks are correct.

see j b 200 post for the correct numbers and what damage looks like. for this exact setup. This includes Multi attack, in these numbers. which is why they are +16 and not +18. it is just not labeled, like it was for TWF

if you are wondering what ones or secondary if you are only doing natural attacks see the monster book in the back, it list them. Bite, Claws Gore are all primary I think. while tails wings ect. are secondary unless it is the only form of attack.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

So, to clarify my math:

I assumed that his BAB + Str + enhancement was +18, so the reason I gave +16 as high attack is because I was applying the -2 for TWF and Multiattack to the +18 in the OP.

To show my Math:
Main hand: BAB + STR + Enhancment (if any) - 2(TWF)
Off hand:BAB + STR + Enhancment (if any) - 2(TWF). These do 1/2 Str unless you have double slice.
Bite BAB + STR + Enhancment (if any) - 2(secondary attack), half Str damage
Gore BAB + STR + Enhancment (if any) - 2(secondary attack), half Str damage
Claws BAB + STR + Enhancment (if any) - 2(secondary attack)(only if using unarmed attacks with feet), half Str damage


i would like to add something that some people keep missing.

only specific classes (monk,brawler and maybe some others) who get improved unarmed strike also say specifically that it can be used with other body parts such as elbows and head-buts.

the normal attack with unarmed strike, whether with or without improved unarmed strike feat doesn't have that specific rule so a gm is perfectly allowed to demand the use of a limb for that attack and then deny any weapon\natural attack that limb had as part of the full attack. (as in natural attack with the same hand holding a weapon)


Are you guys saying you get a main hand and off hand attack at each of the BAB iteratives?

I'm not sure how else to interpret this:
Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3
Off Hand: +18/+13/+8

---

edited - I forgot he mentioned the full battery of TWF feats.


Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat chain does just that, my good man.


j b 200 wrote:

So, to clarify my math:

I assumed that his BAB + Str + enhancement was +18, so the reason I gave +16 as high attack is because I was applying the -2 for TWF and Multiattack to the +18 in the OP.

To show my Math:
Main hand: BAB + STR + Enhancment (if any) - 2(TWF)
Off hand:BAB + STR + Enhancment (if any) - 2(TWF). These do 1/2 Str unless you have double slice.
Bite BAB + STR + Enhancment (if any) - 2(secondary attack), half Str damage
Gore BAB + STR + Enhancment (if any) - 2(secondary attack), half Str damage
Claws BAB + STR + Enhancment (if any) - 2(secondary attack)(only if using unarmed attacks with feet), half Str damage

Natural Weapons suffer a -5 penalty for using iterative attacks in conjunction. Not sure if this is considered calculated in the Natural Weapon equation, but it's there.

Also, if the PC has a level in Monk, he doesn't need Double Slice for full Strength on Unarmed Strikes.

Monk's Unarmed Strike wrote:
There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.

He could also pick up Master of Many Styles for Dragon Ferocity for 1.5x Strength, and (if he can muster the feats) pick up Feral Combat Training to apply 1.5x Strength to the selected Natural Weapons if he so desires.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Natural Weapons suffer a -5 penalty for using iterative attacks in conjunction. Not sure if this is considered calculated in the Natural Weapon equation, but it's there.
COMBAT: Natural Attacks wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack...When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

With Multiattack it is only a -2.

Scarab Sages

zza ni wrote:

i would like to add something that some people keep missing.

only specific classes (monk,brawler and maybe some others) who get improved unarmed strike also say specifically that it can be used with other body parts such as elbows and head-buts.

the normal attack with unarmed strike, whether with or without improved unarmed strike feat doesn't have that specific rule so a gm is perfectly allowed to demand the use of a limb for that attack and then deny any weapon\natural attack that limb had as part of the full attack. (as in natural attack with the same hand holding a weapon)

This is not true. Any character can use a kick or a head butt, no monk levels required. This is defined in the combat chapter of the CRB.

CRB wrote:

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:


Imbicatus wrote:
zza ni wrote:

i would like to add something that some people keep missing.

only specific classes (monk,brawler and maybe some others) who get improved unarmed strike also say specifically that it can be used with other body parts such as elbows and head-butts.

the normal attack with unarmed strike, whether with or without improved unarmed strike feat doesn't have that specific rule so a gm is perfectly allowed to demand the use of a limb for that attack and then deny any weapon\natural attack that limb had as part of the full attack. (as in natural attack with the same hand holding a weapon)

This is not true. Any character can use a kick or a head butt, no monk levels required. This is defined in the combat chapter of the CRB.

CRB wrote:

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

right i should have added head butts in the part i said limbs and knees instead of head butts.

beside that looking more into the difference between monk's (and brawler im not going to list the whole damn list who get improved improved unarmed strike). you will note that it say that unlike others who use improved unarmed strike the monk(etc etc) can get his full str no matter what limb he's using and can make the attack even if he's hands are full. which bring more into the point that normal improved unarmed strike make ur limb\head count as a weapon (so no natural attack with it while attacking with it unless monk(etc etc). and you need (like in multi weapon fighting) to pick on limb(or head-butt if you want to spec it that, the writers actually left that up to you) to be the main "hand" and get full str while the others would be off hand and get only half str.
(yes i know in the unarmed strike part it says str added not half. but that goes back into how u use the st bonus on weapons .half in off hand and full with main,is also work well with them saying its now count as a weapon. they didn't dwell on attacking more then once so with one attack assuming you use your main limb it will be full str.going into main and off hand attacks is done at two weapon fighting after all and no reason to repeat it here.)


KainPen wrote:
Lostcause78 wrote:

That is a lot of attacks!

Pardon me for jumping in with a related 3rd party question-

What does Multiattack do for the original list of attacks:

Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3
Off Hand: +18/+13/+8
Natural Attacks: +18/+18/+18/+18

- as in which of them would be considered secondary attacks?

Been pondering making a natural attacks character but am finding it a little complex to figure out all the do's and do not's.

all the naturals are secondary and the numbers off if you are using two weapon fighting in combination with as I stated above and many others. the original total numbers are wrong, but the number of attacks are correct.

see j b 200 post for the correct numbers and what damage looks like. for this exact setup. This includes Multi attack, in these numbers. which is why they are +16 and not +18. it is just not labeled, like it was for TWF

if you are wondering what ones or secondary if you are only doing natural attacks see the monster book in the back, it list them. Bite, Claws Gore are all primary I think. while tails wings ect. are secondary unless it is the only form of attack.

Thanks for clarifying, and I assume the Bite, Gore and Claws become secondary because he's also using unarmed strike?

I'm amazed that you guys can keep all these rules in order, gives me a headache at times!


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Lostcause78 wrote:
KainPen wrote:
Lostcause78 wrote:

That is a lot of attacks!

Pardon me for jumping in with a related 3rd party question-

What does Multiattack do for the original list of attacks:

Main Hand: +18/+13/+8/+3
Off Hand: +18/+13/+8
Natural Attacks: +18/+18/+18/+18

- as in which of them would be considered secondary attacks?

Been pondering making a natural attacks character but am finding it a little complex to figure out all the do's and do not's.

all the naturals are secondary and the numbers off if you are using two weapon fighting in combination with as I stated above and many others. the original total numbers are wrong, but the number of attacks are correct.

see j b 200 post for the correct numbers and what damage looks like. for this exact setup. This includes Multi attack, in these numbers. which is why they are +16 and not +18. it is just not labeled, like it was for TWF

if you are wondering what ones or secondary if you are only doing natural attacks see the monster book in the back, it list them. Bite, Claws Gore are all primary I think. while tails wings ect. are secondary unless it is the only form of attack.

Thanks for clarifying, and I assume the Bite, Gore and Claws become secondary because he's also using unarmed strike?

I'm amazed that you guys can keep all these rules in order, gives me a headache at times!

yes that is why. only reason we know them all is because most of us probably have GM before or have been gming since 3.edtion. Which requires a heavy knowledge of the rules. we have just adapted to the changes, between version. But even then we still get stuff wrong from time to time because we remember the older version rule instead of the current. we also get corrected often on these boards. like zza ni did above. I think 3.0 it could have been 3.5, but at some point only monks could unarmed strike with any part of there body. I think in 3.0 you actual had to declare which part of the body your where striking with also. zza ni was either remember that version of the rule or did not realize it was updated for Pathfinder. Because the wording for the monks unarmed strike makes it sound like it is something only he can do. This is left over jargon from the version in which he was the only one that could. someone corrected me on it my self at some point on these boards.

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