I've run into this weird issue DMing where melee characters in my group seem a little squeamish about going first.
Specifically if there's a big ugly monster with a ton of natural weapons or an enemy fighter or fighter archetype of some kind. So the fear is that if they charge and hit them, the next turn they'll get hit with a big full attack and either get serious hurt or maybe even dropped outright themselves.
So they give up their turn. Move a little, attack with a ranged weapon, use a buff, sometimes do nothing at all. Then the monster's turn comes around and the monster charges the fighter, hits with one claw or bite... and then sure enough next round the fighter full attacks and the monster dies with the fighter only slightly wounded.
This isn't a huge problem per se, but it still feels awkward that the fighter feels like being the first one to engage in melee combat is actually a disadvantage and I feel like if I played monsters just as intelligently combat would get very strange in those scenarios.
Anyone else ever encounter anything similar?
Yeah. I know it's a smart tactical decision and I don't fault him for it. I still don't like the idea that he essentially gets nothing for going first because, unless he has pounce, actually going first is a death sentence.
High initiative isn't about always going first. It's about being able to choose when you enter the battle.
this this kreygasm
And about not getting hit flatfooted, taken by surprise, wiped out before you can do anything about it.
Unchained Action Economy helps a fair amount with this problem (assuming no 'reach' disparity), which is a relic of the 'full-attack' paradigm.
Your turn: Move to the enemy (1 act). Take a single attack (1 act). Step (1 act) away.
Enemy's turn: Step (1 act) towards you. Take two attacks (can't use 'Make All Natural Attacks' because that is 3 acts).
Your turn: Attack twice (2 acts). Step (1 act) away.
Etc.
The thing I'm surprised about is that your melee characters are going first?
Often melee characters are strength based (and lack dex) and don't look for ways to add to initiative. So archers, and casters will usually go well before them to lay down battlefield control/attacks.
And, if it is melee character that has a high initiative they should probably just look for something to do with that first round action, like using a wand to buff or something.
And, if nothing else they can always delay to keep full use of their actions, and just wait till after the monster goes.
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Encourage someone to go with a reach weapon + lunge. It solves this problem beautifully.
With a reach weapon + lunge, they can attack from far enough away that human-ish enemies (or at least large enemies with 5' reach, like many natural attack beasties) can't reach them without using a move action. That means they can attack (or perhaps even full attack), and they even preserve their ability to get AoOs against the target.
Reach weapons are generally just the best style when you are considering distance control and initiative. Even before they can get the full effect out of the reach + lunge combo, they can at least put themselves at the front and position themselves so that enemies can't charge the squishie wizard without eating an AoO.
It just makes your material all the more versatile, and requires minimal investment. I mean... even the bare bones style only needs power attack adn combat reflexes. And lunge isn't that bad a deal either- you can full attack anything in a circle 45' wide; no near feat taxes like with TWF, everything clearly adds to your damage or expands you ability to do damage. So most full BAB classes can get this going by level 7 (and humans can get everything but lunge by level 1), so it is not a bad path to take.
EDIT- oh, also works with enlarged melee + lunge. Just have the fight ready an action to charge after the caster casts enlarge person. Works well enough. Maybe encourage someone to go with that cool druid archetype, goliath druid, that is all about being HUGE. That character's motivation for the campaign could be a HUGE QUEST, where he seeks to become HUGE!
I like the ready option. Ready for when he gets to you, get a free attack in as if you had moved first, you still get hit with only one attack, and then you get to full attack first.
Even better: Invest in improved trip. Then ready the trip for the opponents charge.
Monster charges, you trip it before it hits, and if it works, the monster now has to work with being prone, right in your threatened area.
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So they give up their turn. Move a little, attack with a ranged weapon, use a buff, sometimes do nothing at all. Then the monster's turn comes around and the monster charges the fighter, hits with one claw or bite... and then sure enough next round the fighter full attacks and the monster dies with the fighter only slightly wounded.
Don't worry about it too much. Remember, ultimately, adventures are written for the PCs to win.
What I do is look at the encounter and decide what the 'bad guy' motivation is. For a dumb ogre, he might like squishing things and just charge in. For a pack of wolves, half might stay hidden in the brush while the rest try to circle the PCs. Every once in a while, I also like to drop an encounter right on top of the PCs or have it crash suddenly into them.
Just don't play every monster the same. Let the dumb ones do dumb things (including screwing up) and the smart ones use good tactics.
Letting your enemies come to you is a legit strategy.
Yeah I don't recommend the unchained action economy, it really screws with classes the depend on swift action powers. But yeah, that is an essential problem with melee combat, and one the reasons I have marked preference for reach weapons, win initiative and buff and wait for the attack to come (and get an aoo to boot).
More martials should have access to pounce, it would make the game better from this perspective. Otherwise your players are merely being prudent.
Having played fairly extensively with unchained action economy (UAE), I can honestly say I haven't seen much in terms of problems from swift actions. Those few corner cases where it's a problem can easily be adjudicated by your DM, and (IMO of course) are more than made up for by the improved gameplay for the vast majority of the game.
UAE kills the full attack paradigm, which has needed to die in a fire. It slightly nerfs a number of gish classes, which tend to be high in relative power. It gives a slight buff to mundane classes, which (let's be honest) need it. It reduces full caster versatility in combat a little bit (can't 5' step + swift + spell), which is also needed. In my experience, combats tend to be more dynamic and tactical, as melee don't have to sit in one place constantly to get off their full attack.
I'd play PF with either Action Economy, but I can honestly say I greatly prefer the UAE at this point.
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High initiative isn't about always going first. It's about being able to choose when you enter the battle.
In my opinion, this is probably the biggest reason why people think rogues suck. "Ooh, I 'won' initiative thanks to my high Dex! I run up and attack the bad guy!" Being the first person into the fray means you probably aren't getting a sneak attack and you're suffering the bad guy's full attack on his turn.
Readying an action or delaying would save a lot of rogue's lives and increase their damage output at the same time. They just have to separate the concepts of "winning" initiative and "going first."
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I've run into this weird issue DMing where melee characters in my group seem a little squeamish about going first.
Specifically if there's a big ugly monster with a ton of natural weapons or an enemy fighter or fighter archetype of some kind. So the fear is that if they charge and hit them, the next turn they'll get hit with a big full attack and either get serious hurt or maybe even dropped outright themselves.
So they give up their turn. Move a little, attack with a ranged weapon, use a buff, sometimes do nothing at all. Then the monster's turn comes around and the monster charges the fighter, hits with one claw or bite... and then sure enough next round the fighter full attacks and the monster dies with the fighter only slightly wounded. ...
Why rush into a fight? Unless the PCs know that they need to clear every monster out of a dungeon, avoiding a fight is a good option.
Cleric: The monster isn't attacking. Why?
Fighter: It sized me up. It knows charging is a death sentence.
Cleric: Are you just going to stand here all day?
Fighter: If I charge, then it would have the advantage.
Cleric: So neither side is going to attack first?
Fighter: Looks like it.
Cleric: This cavern is large. How about we circle around it without attacking?
Figher: Works for me.
The only problem with the standoff is if it happens often enough to become a cliche. But isn't the standoff caused by a narrow set of circumstances? Neither side can be taken down in a standard attack action, but both can take down the other in a full-attack action. I suppose that if your party is exploring the Valley of the Giant Cats then a lot of encounters would be similar, but most dungeons have variety.
Throw in an opponent with more hit points or higher AC and fewer attacks per round or lower damage per hit and the dynamic changes, because the fighter and the opponent will fight for several rounds and the first one to attack, even a single attack, will have the advantage. Or throw together a pack of creatures, each one that can be killed in a single blow, so that that first attack matters immediately. Or use the same enemy fighter with a killer full attack, but have him charge a party member beside the fighter, even if he takes an attack of opportunity from the fighter, so that the party fighter has to move before attacking, but has to do so to save his friend.
High initiative isn't about always going first. It's about being able to choose when you enter the battle.In my opinion, this is probably the biggest reason why people think rogues suck. "Ooh, I 'won' initiative thanks to my high Dex! I run up and attack the bad guy!" Being the first person into the fray means you probably aren't getting a sneak attack and you're suffering the bad guy's full attack on his turn.
Readying an action or delaying would save a lot of rogue's lives and increase their damage output at the same time. They just have to separate the concepts of "winning" initiative and "going first."
If a rogue catches a foe flatfooted, i.e., before their first turn in initiative, then they can sneak attack. Thus, high initiative is a good strategy for a rogue. On the other hand, if everyone else held back, then the rogue is out among the enemy alone. The rogue needs to coordinate his tactics with the others. Or learn Spring Attack.
Bards and clerics who buff the party at beginning of combat also benefit from high initiative, but their first action is to start a bard song or cast a buff spell, not attack.
This is why rogues should have a ranged option to do in surprise round and on round 1 if there are targets to sneak attack. Minor magic for acid splash works real nice for this.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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High initiative isn't about always going first. It's about being able to choose when you enter the battle.In my opinion, this is probably the biggest reason why people think rogues suck.
Your opinion is uninformed.
If you would like to know the actual biggest reason(s) "why people think rogues suck" (or why people think anything, really), your best bet is usually to ask and listen, rather than to speculate and assume.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Anyone else ever encounter anything similar?
Yep, and it's one of the major reasons my melee cleric was a lot more powerful than folks on the forums tend to assume, and why the warpriest isn't that much better at fighting than the cleric is.
My cleric needed a single standard action for buffing at the start of a fight, so I would typically cast my buff (divine favor) and then walk forward and draw my weapon, ending far enough forward to be a target but far enough back that the enemy would have to use a move action to reach me.
People keep trying to dismiss the combat potential of the cleric with ideas like "Sure, if you want to spend forever buffing first, but by then the fight's basically over anyway," but as you noticed, round 1 is the "meet and greet" of the melee combatants, so spending that round buffing will often actually be a stronger move than getting in that first attack.
It's a peculiar quirk of the system, to be sure. If it bothers you, 5E did away with the "moving reduces your attacks" thing, so you might look into making adaptations (unless we're talking about organized play, of course).
I've run into this weird issue DMing where melee characters in my group seem a little squeamish about going first.
Specifically if there's a big ugly monster with a ton of natural weapons or an enemy fighter or fighter archetype of some kind. So the fear is that if they charge and hit them, the next turn they'll get hit with a big full attack and either get serious hurt or maybe even dropped outright themselves.
So they give up their turn. Move a little, attack with a ranged weapon, use a buff, sometimes do nothing at all. Then the monster's turn comes around and the monster charges the fighter, hits with one claw or bite... and then sure enough next round the fighter full attacks and the monster dies with the fighter only slightly wounded.
This isn't a huge problem per se, but it still feels awkward that the fighter feels like being the first one to engage in melee combat is actually a disadvantage and I feel like if I played monsters just as intelligently combat would get very strange in those scenarios.
Anyone else ever encounter anything similar?
Yes but only briefly...
Solution 1) Make sure you have ranged combatants where possible so if melee doesn't want to exchange melee attacks they'll have to use their ranged, which probably isn't as good.
Solution 2) Cast a spell. If you aren't using spell casters then there really is no reason to hurry.
Solution 3) When possible have the enemies go for backup. If some of the PCs are just going to stand there looking dumb, then they should pay the consequences for being dumb.