Zokar Elkarid

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The encounter treasure awards average at around 30% increase from the wealth by level table or alternately the wealth by level table is about 25% decrease from the total treasure who have gained in gp. I have to say I am not a sure about these numbers so please correct me if I am wrong

However I find an only 25% decrease from the treasure you have found is a bit too low or better put too optimistic. See even if half your treasure is sellable stuff at full price and half of it is random magic items sellable at half price, you will want to sell most of them to have the items you want. At that point you end up with (50%+25%) the 75% of the found loot in wealth by level.
Two factors though complicate this.
1) You may keep some of the loot you find because it fits and so go a bit above wealth by level
2) Any consumables you use and any components for spell you use (like raise dead) will take you below wealth by level.
I think the second factor is much more stronger than the first one, so you end up with a lower wealth by level, unless you award more treasure sellable at full price and less magic items.

Has anyone calculated the treasure awards from a pathfinder adventure path? Has anyone who run the adventure path as is and found that it doesn't have enough treasure?

What is the latest iteration of the official rules about purchacing and upgrading magic items?

I know about page 460 in the core rule book and the rules using prestige points in pathfinder society.

Technically there are no limits I think to upgrading magic items in the core rulesbook, though I guess a dm could enforce the purchacing magic items limits on upgrades.

Are there rules about this anywhere else?

As in my other thread I am trying to get a better feel on what a +1 per level to basically all rolls boils down with regards to the internal logic of the game world. Again I should mention that obviously pathfinder isn't life simulator and edge cases will always give weird results, but I still think its interesting to think about those things.

So I was thinking a 20th level guy with all abilities at 10 has basically the same stats with a 1st level guy with all his abilities at 48, that is str 48 dex 48 con 48 int 48 wis 48 cha 48! So they have the same ac, attack bonus, saves, skill modifiers and resonance. Their only difference is in hp, damage and proficiency ranks increases.
However if the 20th level character gains skill increases for level they are basically the same in that aspect. (Also if the 20th level one has +5 longsword they will be very close damage wise)

Note that his stats are compared to a 20th level pc that has his abilities at 10. If his array is sth like 22 20 20 18 16 10, then the 1st level equivalent will be 60 58 58 56 54 48.

I think that this on some level at least demonstrates how much heavier and dense the new level bonuses are and what they actually represent.

So I was thinking about how much stronger a high level character is, than a low level one based only to their number of levels, so I was thinking of running a scenario to find out about it.

But before I do, I would like to say, I dont expect any roleplaying system to give normal results especially in scenarios that essentially will never happen in them. This is NOT a thread about wether if PF 2 can simulate real life its about me (and you?) having fun with a kind of thought experiment and maybe getting a better feeling of what level actually represents in the new edition.

So on one side we have awesome Joe a 10 level warrior?, it doesn't matter he gets no class features and 8hp per level for a total of 88hp, 8 bonus from being human. He has only a longsword and all his abilities are at 10 to keep things uncomplicated, though if this messes up the results I am ok with changing it and people are free to make their own examples. Ok so he has 88hp, attack+10 and ac 20.
How many average Joe's are necessary to defeat him? Average joe's also have longswords and all their stats at 10, so 16 hp, attack +1, ac 11.
I don't take into account critical hit failures and flanking bonuses.

I am not good at calculating damage per round with the new rules but I think its somewhere at 6,75 for awesome Joe and 3,6 for the Joe's if all 8 Joes are attacking. I am not using iterative attacks because I am not sure if they change anything.
So the Joe's needs around 25 rounds to get awesome Joe down, during which time he has felled around 10 of them(according to my calculations, which are propably wrong). So around 18 average joes are enough to do the job. Seems beyond what is humanly possible especially for a person that has no greater natural abilities than others, but that's level 10 for you.

What do you think? Also if anyone cares enough to do the actual math you have my thanks!

So the new basic class structure in PF 2 is 10 class feats, 10 skill feats, around 20 skill proficiency ranks plus whatever you get from intelligence, 5 general feats and 5 ancestry feats. Also plus level to basically everything for everyone.
Notable stuff:
Class feats have level requirements up to 20 and those of the highest level seem more powerful.
20+ skill ranks equals to at least 5 skills at legendary and this combined with skill feats means skills will play a heavier role in this edition at least regarding the pc's power level.

All this means that all classes start with a pretty potent basis, contrary to former editions where some classes had weak basic stats like the wizard and others strong like the ranger.
But it also means that all that left to differenciate them are their class features (and the 10 class feats, but everybody gets those in some sense).
Hence now full casters get fewer spells because they basically get everything everybody else does and non casters have to get more stuff because, apart from more hp, their unique class features have to compete with 9th level spellcasting.

I think I can see this working. What do you think?

So in 3rd edition dnd doubling the monsters added 2 to the encounters cr or el or whatever (every doubling led to a +2 to cr). I think that was also generally/supposedly true in pathfinder. Also sth that was 5 cr higher than you was an insurmountable challenge, though extremely true for level 1 not so for level 15, but that optimization for you my friend.

Considering the +1 to everything for every level, increases in ability scores albeit to a lesser degree, class feats, skill feats and proficiency levels how do you think will that affect PF 2.0 powercurve compared to the Pathfinders one? Will it become steeper? It seems so to me, at least with the current information at hand.

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I was always a believer in monsters following the same rules as pc's and I disliked 4th editions treatment of the matter.
Nowdays though I think the whole matter is a false dichotomy. What really matters is monsters following rules that make narrative sense. For example fire elementals being immune to fire, dragons flying etc. Stuff that narratively or storywise the monsters should be able to do.
I still like for the monster to have ability scores to get a feel for what its capable of, but no need for the monster to follow class levels progression and abilties.
What I still don't like are arbitrary abilities, like a boss monsters gets extra actions just because its a "boss" monster. Again I am ok with a marilith using an action to make multiple attacks because it has multiple arms and can tactically use them, but I don't like arbitrary abilities.
Or a monster having magic items that it can use but is not using them because they are "loot". Again if there is a story/roleplay reason for why its not using an item I am ok with it.

What path does PF 2.0 seem to be following?

It is known that 3 magic items will be necessary for high level play. Propably magic weapon, magic armor and sth else.
The question I have is why? I kinda get magic weapon, you need it to overcome magical reisstance to damage and to actually deal enough damage to monsters to stay a threat(the increased damage die and all that). Why would need a magic armor though if your ac already increases by your level? Do you need the numbers it gives you or is it sth else?
The propably represent just numbers you will need which is alright, but I am thinking there is a low propability they either are necessary to actually making use of your high level bonuses maybe above +10? or they allow you to use those bonuses in a different way, similarly to legenadry profiencies?
Maybe this an opportunity to solve the fighters and rogues shouldn't be magical but have to compete with wizards problem. Simply allow them to use magic weapon and armor in a power multiplying way, though with legendary proficiency they are already kind magical maybe this is a moot point.
Also obviously classes like the wizard will have different necessary items, sth like staff/wand or bonded item or sth?

What kind of magic items do you think will be necessary and why will they be so?

An idea of mine for balancing casters and non-casters back in 3.5 has been what I called "roleplay disadvantages".
The problem is spells grant superiority to certain classes out of combat wether in the general story or in tactics before combat. To counter act this I though of some scaling disadvantages that didn't affect combat performance or that could be ignored in life threatening situtations. The scaling followed spell levels and the disadvatage could vary.
For example for wizard as you gained levels you could become progressively more compassionate and ethical, or corrupted and disfigured, or obsessed with magic and aloof, or mutated and weird, or easy going and a comfort seeker.
This could also solve certain setting assumptions and could even apply to certain monsters as psychological disadvantage and explantion to why they don't always perfectly use their abilities.
The in setting explanation could be that magic requires some short of sacrifice or that it affects mortal minds that learn it.

Ofcourse the disadvantages should at no point make the character severly hard to play, they should be a source of fun challenge not just making the players life hard and that's the hard part of designing sth like that.

The new anathema for clerics reminded of all this, so I wonder if wizard get sth to that effect. Any thoughts?

It seems that since proficiency bonus will be equal to your level and add to attacks, saves, skills and AC!, pathfinder won't be needing those pesky magic item bonuses that much. That means magic items will be adding cool new abilities to your heroes as implied from the first playtest blog post.
The blog post seems to imply that you will have choice over what items you get, however I can't help but see the opportunity for random item generation to matter. Maybe it goes against the spirit of pathfinder that values choice, but getting random magic items is fun and exciting.

I could also see being able to make any magic items you want getting components from monsters you defeated and using them with the now acessible to all craft magic items feat, to either craft anything you want or anything within the theme of the monsters you defeated.
Still I would like it if at the very least magic item markets didn't have all possible magic items for sale (though I guess they would still have a variety of components...hmmm).

Maybe then a kind of challenging mini game could take place in the downtime time frame? (To create or find items?)

In any case how do you see things in the new magic items paradim. What do you think should happen?

So at level 20 all your base saves and attack bonus are +20. I think I read somewhere that the spell dc's are actually based on spell levels so they remain the same as in 1st edition.

First of all this means everyone (and everything) will have a much easier time resisting spells than before. For many classes two base saves of +6 will go up by 14 points to 20. Regarding closing the gab bewtween martial and casting classes I think this is mainly a good thing. Ofcourse this may even allow for a spells with a bit more oomph! and reverse the taming of the spell list that happened in 3.5 and pathfinder 1st.
Also I am really curious about the proficiency levels the spells themselves will have. I wonder if specialist wizard will have higher proficiency with their chosen school and lower with their banned schools. I also wonder if a "normal" wizard will be supposed to choose specific spells to increase their proficiency level in or all his spells will be in the same level.

Contrary to all that a wizard will also have the same attack bonus of +20 as the fighter, at least with their trained weapon. Fighters actually will reach +23 with legendary proficiency. The question here is how much difference the fighter's class features, legendary proficiency and maybe magic sword will make. My guess is paizo will be smart enough to make sure that this difference is satisfactory.

Another interesting thing is the fact that +1 bonus every level and a proficiency level progression up to legendary creates a semi quadratic progression for everyone, which i guess fits the 1st editions logarithmic cr progression in power.

What do you all think?

So if a vigilante has hide in plain sight, moves 5 feet and hides successfully, he can then full attack triggering his startling appearance and gain the full d8 hidden strike bonus? (for all his attacks)

Also can he hide in plain sight after he full attacks in the same way?(Provided he actually hasnt used his 5 foot step to hide in the current round.)

I really dont see any reason he couldn't, maybe you could rule that in the second case having attacked in this round he can't stealth.

There also is no difference in ranged and melee attacks in this example right?

Can the Molthuni arsenal chaplain use advanced weapon training?

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(I actually created this thread about a week ago but for some reason it was deleted. Did I do sth wrong?)


here is what is wrong:
Toff invites the pc's because he really wants someone to win this tournament while he still is headmaster and at the same time he has stolen sth like 40k from the reward.

and here is
how to fix it:

Personally I think it would make more sense for him to agree with the pc's before hand for them to accept 90k as a reward so that the next headmaster won't know his covert dealings.

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Phantom Touch (Su): As a standard action, you can perform a melee touch attack that causes a living creature to become shaken. This ability lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your oracle level (minimum 1 round). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. At 5th level, the target instead becomes frightened, and at 7th level the target becomes panicked.

Where is the save bro?

It seems that by RAW sacred fist can't pick pummeling charge until level 16 (instead of 8). Am I missing something? Do you think that's intentional?

Continued from this thread.

To respond:

Nice catch Kinevon, its key that the pool needs to be on the ground.
That said, I don't think the whole party will be constantly on air at these levels. Flying might be easy to access, but for small amount of time.

Also the radius IS pretty big. 5 foot per age category makes it 50-60 feet radius. The ability doesn't specify a range. If the dragon can target it within the reach of his breath weapon then its very hard to avoid for the party.

Casting antimagic field on a dragon is very hard to counter, I would never do it as a dm. It is also a well known issue though, even before Oots:P.

To recap a CR 16 creature can deal 40d6(140) acid damage in a 50-60 radius area with reflex save 28 for half, the damage unlike the red dragons melt stone scales with the breath weapon.
Personally I think its a tad too stong and I would change it to work like melt stone: Full damage on the first round, immediatly halved after the first instance of damage.

Acid Pool (Su)

An ancient or older black dragon can use its breath weapon to create an acid pool as a standard action. This acid pool has a radius of 5 feet per age category of the dragon. When an acid pool is created, anyone inside its area takes an amount of damage equal to the dragon's breath weapon (Reflex half). Any creature that starts its turn touching this pool takes damage, but can make a Reflex save for half. Each round, the total damage dice of the pool is halved until the result would be less than 1d6. The acid pool floats on water, and deals damage to anything on the surface.

So I am a bit confused with this ability.
Ancient dragon creates an acid pool, people inside roll reflex (DC 28) for half of 20d6 damage.
In the same turn players start inside, roll reflex (DC 28) for a) 20d6 damage or b) for 10d6 damage.
(And in the second turn a) for 10d6 b) for 5d6)

By strict reading its a) but man it does seem quite punishing. If the party hasn't prepared with resist elements acid they could suffer an unfair TPK.

Am I missing sth?

I like the idea of rolling to see what treasure the players get, but mostly I want it to roll the treasure a city has in its spell shops the pathfinder way. Its just takes me too much time otherwise.

Can anyone be of help?

Reason I am asking is I just checked the oracle's wave mystery and found it pretty cool. One of the revleation is called Wave Form and allows you to shapeshift into a water elemental.

Now elementals can speak so verbal components are covered, oracles don't need to use a divine focus and escrew materials allows you to ignore cheap materials. Question is can the water elemental use somatic components? I could see it happen if it assumed a human-like form with digits, but I am not sure.

Any opinions?

Better zombie ninjas.

I have searched but found no definite answer.
Also is the rule in pathfinder different from 3.5?

Some of Ghartoks stats seem off.

To be specific:

His initiative: -1 dexterity, +4 improved initiative, +2 foresighted= +5 instead of +0

His full attack when raged:
+7BAB+10 str-1 size+1 magic= +17/+12 with goreshred instead of +15/+10

Am I right or am I missing something?

He also wields a medium greataxe that has a base damage of 2d6. Is that a mistake of is he supposed to have a large greataxe (which deals 3d6)?

In the House of the Beast Edimmu can use Moan and cause a PC to become shaken.

2 questions:

For how long does it last?

And if a player fails his save twice because multiple edimmus moaned will he become frightened?