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I hate beer.
Be willing to be the GM. Make sure you follow school rules. Advertise across multiple platforms, like putting up fliers, announcing it in student media like radio/TV/newspapers, using social media, posting on this website, using other websites like warhorn. Be excellent to each other.
I think wizards are better. Levels 3,5,7,9,11,13,15,and 17 are really freaking painful as an Oracle, I don't even want to think about being a 2+ skill point class with this spell progression (oracle has a worse list but faster bonus spells.) For every time someone spammed something like dispel magic to save the day there are at least 10 times someone ended an encounter with a highest possible level spell. I know it is only my experience but it holds true over the 15 years spontaneous casters have been a thing. Not having 3rd level spells at 5th level means you are as potent as a 6/9 caster. Not having 4th level spells at 7th level means you are as potent as a 6/9 caster. A sorcerer doesn't even pull ahead of a bard for good until 8th level. A Wizard has been ahead since level 5. Both a wizard and a bard have better skill points than any but a Sage Wildblooded sorcerer. The combination of lacking skills and delayed spell progression leads me to conclude that I might rather play a bard than a wizard, but the vast majority of concepts I have would do best to only use sorcerer as a dipping class if at all. PS: Sorcerer is very, very front loaded. There is a reason Crossblooded Sorcerer 1/Wizard 19 is a thing, even with Arcanist trying to fill that niche.
I seriously have no idea why so many people think things like class level are out of game only ideas. My Wizard is keenly aware of what level he is thank you very much. He has a mathematical progression of class abilities and the skills to know what they do. He is keenly aware he has made it to the next level when the two spells he has been working on work correctly and he can memorize more spells. It breaks my suspension of disbelief completely to be told that my very smart character has no idea how the thing he has been studying his whole life works. Sorry for going off topic, but this is not a standard assumption as far as I know. If I am wrong and it is stated in the rules somewhere could someone please quote it?
The word itself is problematic. In one sense it is a slur. Calling someone else's idea of a good time something derogatory can be very hurtful. I think the definition Snowblind gave above is generally pretty accurate. It is also tied up in another loaded word, broken. The definition of broken is either
Definition a) of broken isn't inflammatory generally, except by being conflated with definition b). When one person calls another persons character broken here is often what happens: The person calling the character broken feels invalidated. They see their investment of hours learning the game and building a character as for nothing if someone else is allowed to come in with something an order of magnitude more effective than what they built and force them into a supporting role they did not want, ask for, or envision. The person who's character was called broken feels invalidated. They see their investment of hours learning the game and building a character as for nothing if someone else is allowed to come in with something an order of magnitude less effective than what they built and force them into a leading role they did not want, ask for, or envision. Everyone else at the table starts questioning whether their characters are too weak or too strong and everyone enjoys the game less. Synonyms for cheese include overpowered (OP), broken, and less polite versions. Antonyms for cheese include underpowered (UP), useless, and less polite versions.
Roll bluff. Seriously, it won't matter most of the time. The only real way to observe someones power in game is to observe them using it. So unless they observe you doing something a 2nd level wizard can't they have no reason to suspect you are anything other than what you appear to be. A knowlegde check will only reveal information about your race (most humanoids seem like easy prey based on knowledge checks, this explains why so many of the monsters underestimate the PC's until it is too late.) Detect thoughts is a matter of GM fiat anyway, there are no rules for determining what a creature is thinking about that I know of. So unless you want to tip off that you have some way around it it is better to rely on a skill. I suppose a case could be made for perform (act) or disguise instead of bluff, so speaking with the GM about the mechanics of your deception before play starts will make this much better for everyone involved. Necromancers and enchanters have mechanical uses for charisma and there are many traits that let you use intelligence for social skills so this can be done with a lot of different wizard builds.
Not immunities, but Sense Motive. I see this so often with new GMs. "What do you mean you are entitled to a roll every time an NPC lies to you? Isn't that what the roleplaying part is for, to see if you believe my NPC?" Very frustrating when you are sitting on a double digit sense motive score in a social scenario.
I posted this at the end of the thread that was necro'd yesterday but this seems to be where people are reading ... so I'm just gonna lazily copy/paste it here. Hostage Photos The issue as I understand it is that a subset of PFS players own physical but not PDF versions of additional resources. They want to be able to travel to games as freely as those who own all resources in PDF form. Nobody wants to put in any extra effort, so any solution should focus on that subset. We already have to rely on the PRD instead of the physical version of the books or you end up with players using pre-errata versions of things. So we are already requiring people to lug around dead tree talismans as a way to access the version of the rules on the PRD. It won't work as a solution for everyone, but I imagine that most of the people who use physical books have access to a camera. It wouldn't matter whether the camera is digital analog or part of a phone. If there was a new rule saying that a photograph of the player next to a stack of hardback books with something showing the date that is hard to forge counted as proof, and then required anyone who uses such proof to have printouts of the relevant rules section, I think that could work. You would have to set up specific guidelines, such as the photo is only valid proof for one week and then a new one is needed or the Paizo website showing the date must be in the background. I think it might be something that solves the issue and doesn't make anyone else put in extra effort. Softcover books still need to be hauled, but just being able to leave the CRB, APG, UC, UM, UE, and ACG at home would be a lot of weight out of a lot of backpacks. People would still need to bring the rule for the GM to peruse. What do other people think of this idea?
I like casters in general and oracles are no exception. I think a lot of the popularity comes from the versatility. Clerics basically come in two varieties, positive and negative channelers, with various domain and archetype options. Oracles have access to a smaller portion of the same spell list and so they vary by spells known, not just memorized. Oracles also vary by curse as well as mystery. A bones oracle with the blackened curse is going to feel different from one with the deaf curse or the haunted curse. Similarly a bones oracle with the blackened curse is going to feel different from a heavens oracle or a nature oracle with the same curse. You still have archetypes and mystery selection to differentiate further even after that. Clerics feel different mostly from the roleplaying and worshiping different gods. Oracles feel different without the need for worship and that appeals to many players.
I think I have this working, it still does a nova but now it can put out a reasonable offense for quite a while. Half-elf Barbarian 1/ Ranger (Guide, Shifter) 4/ Fighter (Weapon Master) 3/ Horizon Walker 3/ Cleric (Separatist) 1 Str 20 (10 points, +2 race, +2 levels)
B1 Rage, Fast Movement, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword (Ancestral Arms), Power Attack
Rage, Enlarge Person, Lead Blades, Enlarge, Form of the Bear, Ranger's Focus, Grasping Strike, and Agile Steps will all be limited but they can be combined to devastating effect. You can rage cycle, but I'm not sure whether Terrain Dominance trumps Furious Finish or the other way around. If it doesn't work you could change the desert to underground or astral without messing anything up, or take Horizon Walker out entirely. I used Gozreh as the deity for this, but anyone who grants Travel or Growth should work just as well. It relies on using a large size bastard sword, but you can easily take enough ranks of craft: weapons to make your own if it is a concern. You can wear heavy armor but you lose the benefits of Weapon Focus and Fast Movement if you do. I suggest getting a set of mithral full plate, taking ranks in craft: armor if needed. Pushing Assault and Grasping Strike can be used to position opponents where you want them. For a nova strike you can use Form of the Bear in the surprise round, Ranger's Focus and Lead Blades in the first round, and then Enlarge, Rage, move, and Furious Finish for 120 on a hit or 176 on a crit.
Currently I am keeping all my gear in a handy haversack and we have been making use of a magically extended rope trick to sleep in and recoup. I'm pretty sure this should be enough to stop it while you are sleeping. You can't access the contents of an extra dimensional space (like a handy haversack) while it is inside of another extra dimensional space (like a rope trick.) I have had to remember to unpack my spellbook and bedroll before using rope trick on multiple characters, I am always surprised at how many people don't realize how this has changed and still think it goes astral (which still happens with portable holes, which is why you rarely see those anymore.)
There is nothing about teamwork feats for quite a while. I think we're done here. EDIT: and this is why you hit refresh before you post, we actually got back on topic
The weakness of Glitterdust is the small radius. If the person going invisible is being observed it is a smart move to first go invisible and then move 30 ft away so if someone targets your old square with a Glitterdust they will miss you. This is just one of those interactions people learn as they play, both effects come up often enough if you play published material much.
Rogue might actually be your best bet here. Unchained has made being a dex based rogue much easier. The big advantage is at 10th level you can take the advanced talent feat, which gives out a bonus feat with no restrictions. This makes getting your 6th, 7th, and 8th extra tail happen at 10, 11, and 13 rather than 11, 13, and 15. Dex to hit and damage by level 3 with no feat investment is very nice.
@OP The growth subdomain power lets you Enlarge as a swift action, and both Clerics and Druids can be optimized for melee as well as a full BAB class. The idea is to be able to enlarge yourself as quickly and reliably as possible and the only faster way is Abyssal Bloodrager. Large size reach weapons threaten the squares 15-20 ft away but not those 5-10 ft away. The reason bites (or any other attack that doesn't use your hands) are better than spiked gauntlets is because you can threaten the 5-10 ft area without taking a hand off the polearm. This isn't a concern if your build is something like whip & klar, but it is with the two handed reach weapons that heavy hitters use. As a side benefit for an abyssal bloodrager you can now claw/claw/bite if someone without DR gets up in your face (though you have to drop your weapon.)
Thank you for writing this essay. It made clear terms for what works in combat. It got popular enough that lots of people are now using the terms. My only problem with it is that I am now more aware than ever which party members do something useful and which don't.
A Spell Storing Spiked Gauntlet may be what you want for that situation if a bite attack feels wrong for the character.
Neither one is very good. I would just pick whatever weapon I thought fit the character better or looked cooler. Damage and critical value are much more important, as well as damage type.
I would really take a different tack here. I would use my powers for both good and awesome. So the goal would be not only to remove the oppressive tyrant, but to undo the damage he has done over the last 30+ years. Think in terms of what the people want. If they have one or more popular religions, Wall of Stone + Fabricate + Craft (Stonemasonry) = Cathedrals. If they are having trouble feeding themselves Plant Growth via Limited Wish or Outsider allies should fix that. If there are monsters eating the citizens a 20th level Wizard should be able to get rid of them. Lower their taxes or abolish them altogether and fund your kingdom with an infinite money loop. Bread and circuses work, use them. Taking over should be easy, Teleportation Circle will get everyone where they need to be and outfitting them all with saps should reduce the bloodshed greatly. Keeping power after it is seized should be the real adventure here.
I'm not sure why everyone is obsessed with Urgathoa's undead aspect. Urgathoa is one of my favorite deities in the game and it has nothing to do with zombie minions and everything to do with gluttony and living forever. This is the goddess of rock stars, overindulgence and eternal youth at a terrible price. No reason someone focused on avoiding death and enjoying life should not get along with someone who worships Desna, though a zombie lord with an insatiable appetite for power is another story...
Power creep comes in two varieties. Game level power creep comes naturally as new options are published, used and evaluated. A good example of this can be found in the wizard guides. A God Wizard will probably lose to a Blockbuster Wizard, but only because a Blockbuster Wizard is using feats from APG and UM and the God Wizard isn't. The other kind of power creep is at the tables. It happens when someone makes a character that is more optimized than the others. Then an escalating cold war starts where the goal is to grab your 20% of the face time (or however much) and the only way to do it is to be more effective than your team members. You see this at PFS and in home games, though it often is more pronounced when you play with the same people for multiple campaigns.
For what it is worth I just want a consistent ruleset. I understand that this is a complex game, but I really hate being told that I can't do something while other people can. I would really prefer to go all or nothing. Either don't mess with the rules in this fashion, or make everyone retrain out/retire. I don't get why so many people are cool with the "not anymore" approach. It drives away new players, and it makes those of us who have been playing long enough to know about the exploits but new enough not to have explored them yet insane. While you have presented two unpleasant options, I would easily tell 100 characters to retire rather than create second class players. This is not an ideal situation, obviously. I like the idea of race boons. They are a reward for GMing enough games. I would really like it if there was a way to get them for regular PFS play in the stores. I don't really understand how they get handed out though, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that part.
I'm sorry that I typed one inaccurate statement while I was angry. It appears to have caused a lot of defensive "nuh-uh" responses from the venture officers. My contention was that the campaign coordinator stated that this was discussed, indicating that more than one person knew this was going to happen. I really dislike grandfathering things in as a practice. It bothers me more the more people who know about the change beforehand. I had erroneously assumed that a change such as this would be shared with the venture officers. I would like to apologize specifically to the venture officers who knew nothing of this and will now be accused of it because of me. I still hate the change. I hated it when the SLA ruling changed the game the first time. I didn't like how all of a sudden your choice of race was very important to your class choice, when the game had been moving in the opposite direction for so long trying to make every combination viable. I hate it that after the year it took me to get my head around the new way the world works, I am now told it doesn't work that way, except for other people.
For what it is worth I just want a consistent ruleset. I understand that this is a complex game, but I really hate being told that I can't do something while other people can. I would really prefer to go all or nothing. Either don't mess with the rules in this fashion, or make everyone retrain out/retire. I don't get why so many people are cool with the "not anymore" approach. It drives away new players, and it makes those of us who have been playing long enough to know about the exploits but new enough not to have explored them yet insane.
The original SLA ruling made me feel like I can be a cool AND competent Mystic Theurge, or Eldritch Knight, or Bloatmage, or any other prestige class improved by early entry. And now I won't get to experience that, as I hadn't made a character to take advantage of that yet and now I won't be able to.To be fair the Bloatmage is still a perfectly decent option. You need 5 wizard levels so you grab a bonus feat and what it gives is arguably as good, if not better, than an extra bonus feat and many level 8 school abilities. Bloatmage is still a viable class for a game that is going to go up to 20 or at least the high teens. For say PFS where you retire at 11th it just got really bad. Early entry let you bloat effectively at level 3 and get your capstone at 11th. The build was always going to be Wizard 10/Bloatmage 10. Early entry made the build stronger from 3rd to 14th.
It really galls me because I wanted something unique and now I can't have it. My early entry bloatmage who spams summon monster via academy graduate just got invalidated because I never got to play him enough times in PFS. I could easily make a summoner (no archetype) who does the same thing only stronger or a character for a home game but the build doesn't work from levels 3-6 without early entry. I'm not willing to GM 12 extra times just to play my character who is weaker than the summoner rebuilt PFS legal version would be. So now I get to either not play the character, or play a stronger version that is less unique.
Confusion + Spiritual Weapon is one I heard about recently. You hit them with Confusion then your buddy hits them with Spiritual Weapon so they don't roll on the chart but instead attack something they can't kill for rounds/level.
Sorry OP, this is a bunch of work undone for no good reason.
@Tacticslion Not what I normally do, but it was an unusual situation. Everyone in the game was annoyed with the GM for his bad behavior in previous games. The other players rolled up a slumber witch, an evil orc fighter and a charm cleric. All four of us made the GM cry and it was on purpose. Not the best behavior, but it was a toxic group that needed to break up for many reasons. The game was actually not all that bad aside from when the GM added in a paladin (PC, someone joined late, wasn't there for previous games) to a group of NG, NE, CN, CN and then started a bunch of moral arguments. I should also mention that the other four characters were all connected and the new guy wasn't. That GM would make a really good author, and we loved chewing the scenery of his custom built world, but he just couldn't bring himself to let the dice determine anything of any importance.
Lesser metamagic rod of Selective is nice, you can't get the feat until 10th but you can afford the rod by the time you get fireball.
Having sat at a table of CORE I can say my fears are true. This is hard mode. This may be cheaper for new players, but it also is harder to survive. My wife and I had made a fighter and a rogue. The other players were a druid and a pre gen Seoni. The other players were brand new and 1 week of PFS experience. We were almost TPK'd twice and only good luck saved us. This was caused mostly by the GM (who had never run before) not understanding that a 1-5 with no wand of CLW in the party is really difficult. This isn't how it goes with new players in the normal campaign. The CORE campaign works well as hard mode but it greatly reduces the ability of more experienced players to help the new players succeed and learn. I don't like having to explain in the middle of combat that we are all about to die because those zombies have 12hp and half the party is down and we are out of healing and nobody does more than 1d6+3 damage. I don't like having to choose between rudely telling other players what has the best chance of avoiding a TPK or keeping silent and ensuring it. For something that was billed as not needing to optimize to have fun I have had the opposite experience.
Up his strength by 6 points (or dex if he is a dex to damage character.) This is ridiculously unfair, but that is what it is gonna take to get the character up to par. Having had this problem regularly for years no amount of rebuilding will help, it takes unfair cheatery. If you want to be a rogue, you have to accept having no magic or combat ability. I'm not sure why they make such a horrible job sound so glamorous, but the best part of being a rogue is getting to write "Rogue" on your character sheet. Sorry if that was a harsh rant, but I am sick of "I want to be a Rogue rather than the class with mechanics that fit my character concept" syndrome. It plagues me in real life and here on the messageboards.
I had a first level Barbarian with a +17 sleight of hand check. I stole from enough NPC's that the GM got unhinged and stopped rolling dice and started just straight nerfing.
@OP If you think it will cause problems it probably will. I have had only one experience of being told I would get kicked out of the society if I did something. I was playing a NG character in the liberty's edge faction and I was told that simply mugging a slaver who I was angry with would be an evil act. Not killing, simply forcibly taking money from. When he admitted to all his evil acts. I don't really play that character much anymore, because of this incident. If I can't go around killing slavers and freeing slaves why does that faction even exist?
I have to say the reaction was pretty strong at first and then dissipated. I think it was the combination of the playtest versions having to be adjusted to book versions (I heard a lot of now my Warpriest is illegal since having a full BAB on a 6th level caster isn't actually a thing, but it was in the playtest) with the playtest of Occult Adventures about a month later. Those playtest occult classes have caused ten times the headache that the ACG has. I have no idea how any of them work, and it seems like people only understand the one they chose to play and not the other five. In PFS I have seen Bloodragers, Brawlers, Investigators, Shamans, Hunters, Slayers, and Warpriests but mostly Swashbucklers. I have yet to see an Arcanist or Skald. Most of this is at very low level tables, but I have seen a few investigators and swashbucklers at the mid levels though. Most of it is the same as other classes, the Swashbuckler and Investigator stand out to me. Swashbucklers are like effective fighters. They can do a respectable amount of damage with a respectable defense (saves, AC and Opportune Parry) while still contributing outside of combat. Investigators on the other hand are notoriously useless. One is so ineffective that he has no appreciable offense at level 7. The other is useful because he has a nice wand collection and a high UMD, but anyone could do that and investigator just seems like a bad alchemist to me.
I would probably go Phalanx Soldier/Arcane Duelist for this. You can use a longspear and tower shield at the same time. You can inspire your allies. You have full BAB, bonus feats like crazy from both Fighter and Bard, all good saves, 6th level casting, the ability to get a bonded object weapon (can cast with hands full + cheap magic weapon), you eventually can cast in the heavier armors, lots of skill points and class skills, and basically no real downsides.
I'm assuming it is the standard I have Rapid Shot and can use it at 3rd level Musket Master build you see in PFS. It is strong. It is comparable to things like Zen Archers and Blockbuster Wizards. If the other party members are mid-op melee types it will indeed cause the imbalance you are fearing. I would either help the other players make stronger builds or politely ask the gunslinger player to make something less powerful.
I played the pre-gen skald once in silverhex. I though he was fun but I had a few issues. I liked him in combat, but his spells were really metagamey and required me to interrupt the GM's flow to be all wait don't tell me, I have to decide to use this spell before I learn the results of the action you haven't announced yet. It really threw us off as often GM's don't bother stating the action sequences of NPC's because they aren't used to being interrupted like they were playing a card game rather than being a GM. Can't remember the spells, but I really wanted more useful ones like say Cure Light Wounds and Feather Step.
I think summoners are fine, but I do have issue with their spell list being robbed by other classes.It's the other way around, mate. It is the robbing back via being a Samsaran or Pathfinder Delver or however that is the worse problem, but I do understand your point. Haste at 4th because of Summoner is bad, Haste at 3rd because of Samsaran Wizard/Witch is worse.
I think summoners are fine, but I do have issue with their spell list being robbed by other classes. I just houserule that when pulling spell list shenanigans you have to use the Wizard/Cleric/Druid level and only get to use the Bard or Summoner level if it doesn't exist higher level somewhere else. I also will tell someone taking much much longer turns than the others to do their homework, and if they don't they get uninvited to game. I haven't run into problems in PFS because they ban Master Summoner and Synthesist and Multiweapon Fighting and I only run into small mounted Summoners who ride their eidolons.
Grapple them. Trip them. Disarm them. Stop buying AC and start buying damage and/or to hit. You need to make it obnoxious to ignore you, because this game doesn't have an aggro mechanic thankfully. It allows people to play the tactical part of the game intelligently, which means that the MMO tank role doesn't exist, since its only function is to make opponents do stupid things like ignore the people winning the fight.
I realize that this opens up more options. I realize that this will bring some people back who have drifted away. I hate it with a fiery passion. I was one of the people who didn't come over to Pathfinder until the Advanced Player's Guide came out. It was the book that made me fall in love with Pathfinder and out of love with 3.5. I am not interested in a core only game. Now half of the people running will start running this. I already GM fairly often, but now I will be faced with a choice of play core or GM. That sucks. I understand that the idea is to bring in more people than you lose. I am letting you know if this takes off I will drift away. I really hope this crashes and burns, no offense intended.
I actually have a character who is a proud murderhobo. Though due to his actually having a backstory he may not qualify by others definition. He grep up in Absalom as a nerd reading tales of the pathfinder society while all the other little elves were learning how to use swords and bows. He married his childhood sweetheart and they joined the pathfinder society after he finished his apprenticeship and is very loyal to them, even giving his life once (he got better) on a mission. With a +16 initiative he often goes first and kills opponents without letting them take an action. So he technically fits the murder and hobo parts, he jokes about being a murderhobo in game and is well aware of the reputation of the society.
I would think something that doesn't work well at low levels like an Arcane Trickster or Mystic Theurge. Starting say Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Sleepless Detective 1 lets you take your next 5 levels in Arcane Trickster making a viable touch/ranged touch sneak attack build. Cleric 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Theurge 3 is one level away from glory. The idea here is to make a blockbuster wizard with a crossblooded dip for extra damage and add cleric for bonus fun. You need the Trickery domain and you need a 2nd level arcane SLA so you might get stuck being a Tengu with Long Nose Form or something but it is doable and PFS legal. Can you afford a Blinkback Belt? It might make a throwing build viable. Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler can get dex to damage with daggers without the Agile enchantment, so this might be worth looking into.
I feel your pain. My bloodrager is a reach/natural attacker build and almost never gets to do his thing. People always charge. I very rarely sit at a table where everyone is tactically competent. And your build is more frustrating than mine will ever be even going Golden Legionnaire. Even without a reach build there is often crowding with too many melee characters. Sometimes it is area bombers and melee builds getting in each others way. Sometimes it is all archers and casters and everyone is fleeing from every melee. Tactics with strangers aren't always easy. I try to get a feel for what the other characters do and adapt to them rather than trying to get them to adapt to me. I am better at tactics than most people I game with, but I do learn new things fairly often. I find it helps to let others fail rather than to try and bail them out after they do something moronic. I know that sounds harsh, but I don't want to waste my time being constantly invalidated myself. Nobody is liked by everyone but as long as you are civil you should be fine. I know there are certain players I would rather avoid, and I suspect the feeling is mutual. I'm probably not the best person to give you advice though as I have sided with you and am annoyed with the reach ignorers.
I would give back worse than I got until it blew up. If somebody is bullying you that isn't cool and they deserve no respect. If the group is going to let it slide you get to vent your frustrations. If it disrupts the game you just say they started it and in the ensuing discussion you will not be ignored. Toxic games are no fun and most people quit being jerks if they have to take as good as they give. At the same time be willing to knock off the hostility if they do, otherwise you have become the jerk instead of them.
How do I find this wizard if I choose to grovel? Detect Scrying.
As someone who played an oracle in a home game where there was also a wizard in the party I can state that having a level more of spells is really good and not having it can make you very jealous and unhappy. Levels 3, 5, 7, 9, and 11 are 5/11ths of your career in PFS, and those are the levels you want to be a prepared caster instead of a spontaneous one. All three of the classes you mentioned are really powerful, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that Arcanists or Sorcerers are weak. Wizard is going to reward system mastery and punish a lack of it more than any other class in the game. In PFS Wizards get Spell Focus instead of Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat, and that is a major upgrade. Nonhuman wizards can pull off human wizard shenanigans and human wizards can pull off some crazy stuff. The messageboards can make the class seem to be really powerful, but they assume a lot of system mastery. They also assume that you will be fine not being great at low level for the payoff of being great at mid and high level. There is more parity in PFS as they retire you around the point where full casters start to pull away from everyone else.
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