Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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There is a lively discussion on proving ownership of materials. It can be found here: Link.
The point of this thread is to try and find an alternative solution that can be presented to the "Powers that be" for not having to carry a whole bunch of books around in case a question comes up and a GM needs to make a determination.
Please keep the discussion on point. This thread is to try and find an ALTERNATIVE, not replace the current rule.
And please offer constructive suggestions.
My suggestion is:
- [1] VOs and high stars GM would have the ability to "sign off" on the resources that a player can prove ownership. This means having the book in hand or be able to show a PDF with proper watermark.
[2] This form would have to be updated on a regular basis (annually) but could be updated more often.
[3] If the player purchases a new resource than they would have to bring the book or PDF printout with them until they can get their Ownership Form updated.
[4] Please would need to bring photocopies of the pages int he book related to their character. Failure to bring a photocopy would be the same as not owning the resource.
Thank you
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I see Mekkis had a very similar idea as mine a couple of years ago. His idea can be found here.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Your point 1 doesn't need to apply to watermarked PDFs, since you're already allowed to use printouts of those. So that's good news.
Apart from that, I would probably also require your name to be signed in the book, so that the same book can't be used by multiple people to get a sign-off. It's a bit petty but if you want any chance of getting this idea accepted, it's probably necessary. Side benefit: if you lose your book people know who to contact if they find it.
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Ok, let's see if I can clarify this entire topic for everyone and hit on all the relevant points.
A player must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of the book, or a printout of the relevant pages from a name-watermarked PDF, as well as provide access electronically or a physical copy of the current version of the Additional Resources list, as advised in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
A print out is not a photocopy. It is exactly what it advises. It is a print out from a watermarked PDF that, when printed, shows the name of the person (and their email) on the top or bottom of the page. A photocopy of a physical book that does not show a watermark does not fulfill the requirement. This includes a photocopy of a book you borrowed from a friend, checked out of a library, or any other copy you obtained and photocopied or scanned pages from.
If a family member, significant other, or other members of the same household living together (such as college room mates) are playing at the same table, they may share the same resources instead of having duplicates of the same resource at the same table. If it is a group of friends that always plays together at the same table, as long as there is at least one sourcebook that covers each rule for every character at the table, it fulfills the requirement. For example, if they all play Chelaxian characters and utilize rules from the Cheliax book, and they are all playing at the same table, then they only need one Cheliax book at the table, and that book can be either physical or an electronic, watermarked copy. However, if they are playing at different tables, each person at a different table will need a physical copy, a PDF copy, or a printed watermarked copy of the relevant pages with them, that covers anything they choose to utilize in the build of their charactert. And if it needs to be clarified, watermarked PDFs may not be distributed electronically by anyone. If two members of the same household wish to share a PDF, and find themselves playing at separate tables, one can utilize an electronic version on an iPad or similar item, while the other utilizes a printed watermarked copy.
My apologies in advance to anyone who feels they will have to carry 50 pounds of books. If you need to carry 50 pounds of books, look into a roller type cart that will allow for ease of transporting all of the books. If you can't or don't want to carry 50 pounds of books to a game day, then simplify your character(s) to one or two books, or obtain e relevant watermarked PDFs so you can either carry a printout of the PDF, or a copy of the relevant pages.
A screenshot of your downloads page, coupled with links to the appropriate PRD pages would cover both purposes if you choose to utilize such a method.
Campaign leadership is currently myself and John Compton.
The reasons for the above ruling is two fold.
1) It allows for a player to be able to show the GM a copy of any rules pertaining to their character if the need arises.
2) It helps in the sales of books that allows PFS, and Paizo, to continue to thrive and grow.
If you have a character that utilizes any rule content, that you do not have physical copy or watermarked electronic copy, then you have two options.
1) You can obtain a physical copy or a watermarked PDF.
2) Utilize the retraining rules that are included in Guide 5.0, that releases on Monday afternoon/evening PST and goes into effect on Aug, 14.
If you can not accomplish 1 or 2, you can not use the character until you can meet one of those two conditions. If you are a GM or coordinator, you should be mindful in the manner and tone in which you address this. A player generally should receive 1-3 games to take corrective action to obtain the necessary sourcebooks. There are also cases that are going to have to be dealt with utilizing common sense (I know, I know, I know what they say about common sense). For example, a 12 year old playing in your store is probably not going to be able to afford to purchase $70 in supplemental rule books. In that case, the parents should be made aware that the juvenile player will need a physical or PDF copy to utilize certain rules. While explaining that information, care should be taken in explaining why the juvenile player needs to have those books to participate. It is similar to the requirements a child needs to participate in sports, scouting, etc... (A uniform, cleats, etc... may have to be purchased to be able to participate).
Hero Lab, or any other form of electronic character builder, is not a legal source to fulfill any of the above requirements. Electronic character builders are tools to assist participants in a more streamlined and efficient way to build a character.
Any previous rulings by anyone, including me, in this specific matter are null and void. The above is what all participants of the campaign are required to follow.
He's consistently ruled the same HERE, HERE, HERE, and pretty much every other few months when people bring this topic back up.
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A screenshot of your downloads page, coupled with links to the appropriate PRD pages would cover both purposes if you choose to utilize such a method.
I wish I could use this method, but my "my Downloads" page is multiple screens long... And PRD only covers hard-covers. But it is a great way to get around the greatest weight issue. This plus bringing soft covers is much more doable.
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I would also be in agreement with the proposal, have a VO sign off on them for physical copies.
I've RPed for years where the rule always was you need to have a copy of your mechanics with you outside of core. I used to LARP with a mechanics binder for cons. That binder had just the write up of mechanics that was on the sheet. It actually was not too bad to keep up to date, and would not have been bad for tabletop.
It would help with some cases where its not just hey I only own the physical book, despite its been stated that if your live with someone you only need one copy (ie significant other). I've had GMs at cons complain that the pdfs were only in one person's name while we were sitting next to each other until another GM came over and explained to the person it was ok. -- It's not like we don't support Paizo, we collectively own most hardbacks and pdfs just for the reason of traveling without a suitcase full of books (and paying the airline for that). It would also help in these cases, where the person with the account that doesn't have the pdfs attached, then has the physical sign off sheet.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Cut and paste?
No, not that kind. I mean grab some scissors and paste. You can make those hardcover downloads fit on one page!
You know, I think this is a fantastic solution for those that don't want to buy pdfs, and don't want to carry around all their books. Cut out the pages they use from their hardcovers...
(Even I'm not sure if I'm joking or not...)
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I posted this at the end of the thread that was necro'd yesterday but this seems to be where people are reading ... so I'm just gonna lazily copy/paste it here.
Hostage Photos
The issue as I understand it is that a subset of PFS players own physical but not PDF versions of additional resources. They want to be able to travel to games as freely as those who own all resources in PDF form. Nobody wants to put in any extra effort, so any solution should focus on that subset.
We already have to rely on the PRD instead of the physical version of the books or you end up with players using pre-errata versions of things. So we are already requiring people to lug around dead tree talismans as a way to access the version of the rules on the PRD.
It won't work as a solution for everyone, but I imagine that most of the people who use physical books have access to a camera. It wouldn't matter whether the camera is digital analog or part of a phone. If there was a new rule saying that a photograph of the player next to a stack of hardback books with something showing the date that is hard to forge counted as proof, and then required anyone who uses such proof to have printouts of the relevant rules section, I think that could work.
You would have to set up specific guidelines, such as the photo is only valid proof for one week and then a new one is needed or the Paizo website showing the date must be in the background. I think it might be something that solves the issue and doesn't make anyone else put in extra effort. Softcover books still need to be hauled, but just being able to leave the CRB, APG, UC, UM, UE, and ACG at home would be a lot of weight out of a lot of backpacks. People would still need to bring the rule for the GM to peruse.
What do other people think of this idea?
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These "alternatives" have already been brought up. Year after year. They're nothing new, and they were around when Mike Brock issued the ruling I quoted above.
What new reasoning do people have?
When you argue X, and ruling Y is given in response, continuing to argue X won't do you any good.
the extra 12 pounds of books produced this year adds yet more increasing weight to the argument that an alternate system is needed.
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Hehe, me and my friends were the Chelish group mike was referencing.
I concur that the status quo works well. Mike's ruling above is very generous. If you have a serious physical problem carrying around the books, there is the simple solution of using less books for your characters.
I really don't think you meant it... but do you realize that comes off as if you have a handicap, it means were going to limit what you are able to play or make you pay more (for...say supporting the store that lets you play there.)? And we do have senior citizens who do play PFS.
The legal part of my brain has a lot of issues with that.
It's been already brought up each year the weight increase is about 12lbs.
Not everyone shows up to say a con with "I'm going to play x" character. Some are considerate enough to bring multiples to say hey we already have two x, why don't I switch to y instead.
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It's been already brought up each year the weight increase is about 12lbs.Like 73% of statistics that was made up on the spot.
Most gamers are going to carry more than 12 lbs and its a fact that books are increasing. I know I do in bringing just what I need. Some players are going to have issue with that and not through any fault of their own.
I'm still wrapping my head around we're supposed to be discriminating against people with physical handicaps from playing the game.
Global Organized Play Coordinator
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It's been already brought up each year the weight increase is about 12lbs.Like 73% of statistics that was made up on the spot.Most gamers are going to carry more than 12 lbs and its a fact that books are increasing. I know I do in bringing just what I need. Some players are going to have issue with that and not through any fault of their own.
I'm still wrapping my head around we're supposed to be discriminating against people with physical handicaps from playing the game.
No one is being discriminated against. As a matter of fact, my HQs at both PaizoCon and Gen Con do everything we can to accommodate physical handicaps by finding space on aisles or table ends or closer to the screen or whatever to make it easy as possible for them to participate. I have a cousin who is handicap and am very cognizant about being inclusive as possible.
If someone wants to use 19 books to make a character, they always have the option of purchasing PDFs and placing them on a tablet that weighs 2-3 pounds (or subscribing and receiving free copies of PDFs). People can also choose to not use more than 2-4 books to create a character. It's always a choice and there ar options. Please stop advising that we discrimate. That is the fatherest thing from the truth.
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The biggest problem I have with using PDFs as the solution to this issue is that there is no way for the local game stores to benefit from PDF sales.
If we want a public venue, we have to support the game stores with purchases. Hardcover books are among the most expensive items they sell (not sure of the margin on books vs other merchandise).
Telling people to buy PDFs online while we're sitting in the local game store is rude at best, and in the long term, it's potentially self-destructive. In the past, we've lost slots at stores because the store had to devote the table space to games that bring in money. I suspect other areas have similar anecdotes, but I don't know if anyone has actually tried to quantify the trend.
Players and GMs are not only people impacted by this situation. I'd love to see some kind of solution that takes our hosts into account, too.
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If someone wants to use 19 books to make a character, they always have the option of purchasing PDFs and placing them on a tablet that weighs 2-3 pounds (or subscribing and receiving free copies of PDFs). People can also choose to not use more than 2-4 books to create a character. It's always a choice and there ar options. Please stop advising that we discrimate. That is the fatherest thing from the truth.
It's not the intention for anyone to do this, but what you do at con's and what sometimes happens in stores and other games which don't have that level of professionalism are sometimes drastically different. Enough there are places that people just learn not to play at due to these differences.
I did not even put this policy into that category until someone in this thread put it in that light, which is why I was floored that someone would do this. Some of the 'brainstorming' threads have attempted to come up with viable alternatives - and its not a common backlash to people wanting to come up with alternatives to see this response. Which makes me concerned *if* its happening and people don't realize what they are doing.
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The biggest problem I have with using PDFs as the solution to this issue is that there is no way for the local game stores to benefit from PDF sales.
If we want a public venue, we have to support the game stores with purchases. Hardcover books are among the most expensive items they sell (not sure of the margin on books vs other merchandise).
Telling people to buy PDFs online while we're sitting in the local game store is rude at best, and in the long term, it's potentially self-destructive. In the past, we've lost slots at stores because the store had to devote the table space to games that bring in money. I suspect other areas have similar anecdotes, but I don't know if anyone has actually tried to quantify the trend.
Players and GMs are not only people impacted by this situation. I'd love to see some kind of solution that takes our hosts into account, too.
Extremely good point Dorothy.
By way of example, just over a year ago, a local Pathfinder Group was advised by the owner of a local store, which also served as a venue for organized play, that he couldn't support the use of his store's limited space because very few PFS members made purchases which supported his store (approximately 1 or 2 a month). The owner in question pointed out that he overheard PFS members talking about "buying it from Paizo" or "getting it off Amazon or ebay" because it costs less or is on sale. In the end, we ended up with one less venue to play Pathfinder at.
When it comes to local game stores, the old adage serves well... Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
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Telling people to buy PDFs online while we're sitting in the local game store is rude at best, and in the long term, it's potentially self-destructive. In the past, we've lost slots at stores because the store had to devote the table space to games that bring in money. I suspect other areas have similar anecdotes, but I don't know if anyone has actually tried to quantify the trend.
Have you spoken to these stores about what they sell and where their profits come from? Do you have any data to support your claim that this solution is self-destructive? I assume not, as you probably would have included it in your message.
So, based on your assumption about how everything works, you're calling a person rude and destructive when they're offering several practical solutions for some people who want to use many books but do not want to carry them around.
Further, you are taking one issue which matters to you and using it to paint a picture of a company that cares nothing for the stores that sell its products. Do you take into consideration any of the other work that is done on behalf of and in support of stores when you decide what Paizo or Mike actually care about and focus on?
Here's a problem: you are making assumptions, not relying on facts to make your arguments, and ignoring the behavior of the target of your criticism which runs counter to your argument.
Here's a solution: talk to store owners and managers and obtain data; pay attention to the larger picture of the workings of an RPG publisher and its community; refrain from making unsupported arguments; if you are going to make a complaint, offer a practical solution.
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Ron, multiple store owners have commented, both on the forums and in person, that they HATE Paizo selling PDFs. Encouraging players to buy PDFs instead of supporting the store they are sitting in is literally biting the hand that feeds you. Some stores are big enough (I note you're in LA) that they can subsidize PFS nights with other income, but many are not.
You might take some of your own advice and not dispute someone's assertion without any data of your own. Dorothy made a statement that anyone who's been around for a while here can substantiate.
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Indeed, I've posted on this before and we had multiple store owners chime in, and I've talked about the topic with my local FLGS owner. Pathfinder is, for the investment in time and resources, one of the worst selling products they have (Games Workshop is worse, but everyone knows they have issues). 5E was outselling Pathfinder despite having fewer products and much less store involvement, and PFS night is the worst one for sales in the store - the only reason it works at all is charging per seat for renting the private rooms for the games and by selling snacks. This relentless push by Paizo to move everyone to PDFs is having a serious negative impact on FLGS, and they are in many ways the lifeblood of an organized play environment like this.
That said, my proposed solution is not so much an alternative way of verifying ownership of physical books, but providing a way to register the physical books to receive a free PDF copy. That way, those of us that collect books or want to support our FLGS can still do so, without being actively penalized by the rules of PFS.
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A screenshot of your downloads page, coupled with links to the appropriate PRD pages would cover both purposes if you choose to utilize such a method.
I don't understand what this means. If I've bought the PDF I can take a screenshot of my downloads and use the PRD? If I have the PDF then I can just print that off instead of the screenshot of my downloads..
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Telling people to buy PDFs online while we're sitting in the local game store is rude at best, and in the long term, it's potentially self-destructive. In the past, we've lost slots at stores because the store had to devote the table space to games that bring in money. I suspect other areas have similar anecdotes, but I don't know if anyone has actually tried to quantify the trend.Have you spoken to these stores about what they sell and where their profits come from? Do you have any data to support your claim that this solution is self-destructive? I assume not, as you probably would have included it in your message.
So, based on your assumption about how everything works, you're calling a person rude and destructive when they're offering several practical solutions for some people who want to use many books but do not want to carry them around.
Further, you are taking one issue which matters to you and using it to paint a picture of a company that cares nothing for the stores that sell its products. Do you take into consideration any of the other work that is done on behalf of and in support of stores when you decide what Paizo or Mike actually care about and focus on?
Here's a problem: you are making assumptions, not relying on facts to make your arguments, and ignoring the behavior of the target of your criticism which runs counter to your argument.
Here's a solution: talk to store owners and managers and obtain data; pay attention to the larger picture of the workings of an RPG publisher and its community; refrain from making unsupported arguments; if you are going to make a complaint, offer a practical solution.
Please re-read my post.
I called no one rude. I called "the act of telling someone no to buy from a store while we are sitting in that very store" rude.
I called no one destructive. I said the trend of driving sales away from our venues is self-destructive.
I made no assumptions. I related an anecdote from personal experience and explicitly stated that I did not know whether there was any data to measure the impact of similar anecdotes.
I made no statements about Paizo, Mike, or any individual. I made no criticisms about anyone.
I made no complaints. I pointed out that I had seen a potential issue with the "everyone buy PDFs" suggestion, and I expressed a hope that there might be another solution that accommodated the stores as well as the players.
If you must berate people on the messageboards, at least berate them for what they actually said instead of putting words in their mouth and then berating them for your own words.
(Side note: I have made suggestions on other threads, but if they weren't accepted over there, I didn't see the point in dragging them over here.)
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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To: Acalaphus: I included PDFs in point one because the Resource Tracking Sheet I propose is to show the ownership of all resources, not just the resources a specific character may be using. I also like your idea of signing the book. In fact, I think all members of a household should sign the book. Once I figure out how to edit my own post I will update my proposal.
To Nefreet: Thank you for including the current rule. Very helpful! I did look at the other posts you referenced but none of them address this specific proposal.
To Incendiaeternus and others: You have made me reconsider my view of PDFs. I will think long and hard before I buy the PDF instead of a hardcover because the local gaming stores do need to be supported. But that discussion is off topic and I would ask for everyone to stay on topic.
To Michael Brock: How does my proposal change the current rule? I don’t believe it does. I believe it reinforces it. My proposal is an alternative to having to carry around heavy books for just a page or two of it for a character. The president has already been set for using tracking sheets with the Inventory Track Sheet.
Thank you all for taking the time to post on this thread.
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To: Acalaphus: I included PDFs in point one because the Resource Tracking Sheet I propose is to show the ownership of all resources, not just the resources a specific character may be using. I also like your idea of signing the book. In fact, I think all members of a household should sign the book. Once I figure out how to edit my own post I will update my proposal.
To Nefreet: Thank you for including the current rule. Very helpful! I did look at the other posts you referenced but none of them address this specific proposal.
To Incendiaeternus and others: You have made me reconsider my view of PDFs. I will think long and hard before I buy the PDF instead of a hardcover because the local gaming stores do need to be supported. But that discussion is off topic and I would ask for everyone to stay on topic.
To Michael Brock: How does my proposal change the current rule? I don’t believe it does. I believe it reinforces it. My proposal is an alternative to having to carry around heavy books for just a page or two of it for a character. The president has already been set for using tracking sheets with the Inventory Track Sheet.
Thank you all for taking the time to post on this thread.
The main problem with this idea (and I think someone else might have suggested this before) is that VOs arent in all places that players are, and allowing this sort of thing could be seen as unfair to those who dont.
Personally, I do like the idea, but iirc thats why it was shot down last time.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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The main problem with this idea (and I think someone else might have suggested this before) is that VOs arent in all places that players are, and allowing this sort of thing could be seen as unfair to those who dont.
Personally, I do like the idea, but iirc thats why it was shot down last time.
I am going to make some assumptions here and yes I know that happens when I do that.
I can understand VOs not being everywhere. And I guess my assumption that that a high stars GM being available may not be reality either.
But I don't see this as being unfair. I presume that players who do not have VOs close by are in smaller areas and don't likely have to travel far with their books. I also presume that players that are more serious and would likely have more hardcover books to carry might travel more to conventions where a VO or a high star GM could be found. For those players in a local group that don't travel I presume it is more likely than not that the whole "owning the resource" rule is already being pulled pretty thin.
In fact, an argument can be made that, with the increase in the number of hardbound books, that the need to carry the books around is becoming unfair. I believe that argument was earlier in this thread.
I don't see this concern as a reason to walk away from the idea.
And forgive me but I don't understand what "iirc" means.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I believe another reason it was shot down was a desire not to saddle the volunteer staff that are the VOs with any more work than they already do.
It would be nice to see some more VOs posting with their concerns so we can see their view point.
I can see the work that VOs do put in for the enjoyment of the players and I greatly appreciate what they do.
But I still don't see this as a great burden. All a VO or high star GM has to do is look at the sheet of paper already prepared and all the books and stuff to verify what is being presented. The amount of time seems to be minimal to me.
But I could be missing something.
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I still like the idea I posted on:
Create a system like with the chronicle sheets/boons from the Pathfinder Tales Novels,that can be printed/checked/verified by players and GMs to help track what books they own.
Of course, you would still have to have to bring in your books with you for the initial signing to take place.
It could work... :)
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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A form that the VOs can sign to attest a player has shown a hardcopy of a reference work satisfies one goal - proof of ownership (although I don't think requiring players to deface their hardcopy with a signature or the like is going to fly).
It does not, however, satisfy the requirement of having to carry a definitive rules reference in case the GM wants to see one, as campaign management have specifically stated that photocopies of pages from a physical book are not acceptable. That's particularly important for reference works such as Player Companions, Campaign Settings, etc., that are not available online as part of the PRD, but even for the others you can't always rely on Internet availability - I know several game stores that don't offer WiFi, and it's rare to find WiFi working in the game rooms at conventions.
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A form that the VOs can sign to attest a player has shown a hardcopy of a reference work satisfies one goal - proof of ownership (although I don't think requiring players to deface their hardcopy with a signature or the like is going to fly).
It does not, however, satisfy the requirement of having to carry a definitive rules reference in case the GM wants to see one. That's particularly important for reference works such as Player Companions, Campaign Settings, etc., that are not available online as part of the PRD, but even for the others you can't always rely on Internet availability - I know several game stores that don't offer WiFi, and it's rare to find WiFi working in the game rooms at conventions.
With said document in hand, the players could bring in a print-out from said proven document or PRD entry(For the material that is up now) for the GM to review those rules for the character as needed without the hard-copies.
Second requirement met. :)|
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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A form that the VOs can sign to attest a player has shown a hardcopy of a reference work satisfies one goal - proof of ownership (although I don't think requiring players to deface their hardcopy with a signature or the like is going to fly).
It does not, however, satisfy the requirement of having to carry a definitive rules reference in case the GM wants to see one, as campaign management have specifically stated that photocopies of pages from a physical book are not acceptable. That's particularly important for reference works such as Player Companions, Campaign Settings, etc., that are not available online as part of the PRD, but even for the others you can't always rely on Internet availability - I know several game stores that don't offer WiFi, and it's rare to find WiFi working in the game rooms at conventions.
This is part of the proposal.
With a valid Resource Tracking Sheet the use of photocopied pages of the resource would be legal for that player as a specific exception.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I still like the idea I posted on:
Create a system like with the chronicle sheets/boons from the Pathfinder Tales Novels,that can be printed/checked/verified by players and GMs to help track what books they own.Of course, you would still have to have to bring in your books with you for the initial signing to take place.
It could work... :)
I've proposed such a system in the past.
In fact, as it is officially a requirement that players inform the GM before the game of anything needed for their character (beyond things covered in the Core Assumption), I think the sign-off sheet really needs to be per character, not per player. Each time you learn a new spell, buy a new item, or take a new feat, etc., you need to demonstrate that you have access to the relevant resource.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I've proposed such a system in the past.
In fact, as it is officially a requirement that players inform the GM before the game of anything needed for their character (beyond things covered in the Core Assumption), I think the sign-off sheet really needs to be per character, not per player. Each time you learn a new spell, buy a new item, or take a new feat, etc., you need to demonstrate that you have access to the relevant resource.
Agreed. The Resource Tracking Sheet is for the player to carry but if the player had something new for a character they would need to have the resource available, as normal, until they could get the Resource Tracking Sheet updated.
I see the Resource Tracking Sheet as something that covers the player because it is intended to cover EVERYTHING the player owns, not just the resources being used by a specific character.
Copies of the resource material is something that covers the character. And copies are only valid if a Resource Tracking Sheet is present.
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I've proposed such a system in the past.
In fact, as it is officially a requirement that players inform the GM before the game of anything needed for their character (beyond things covered in the Core Assumption), I think the sign-off sheet really needs to be per character, not per player. Each time you learn a new spell, buy a new item, or take a new feat, etc., you need to demonstrate that you have access to the relevant resource.
Agreed. The Resource Tracking Sheet is for the player to carry but if the player had something new for a character they would need to have the resource available, as normal, until they could get the Resource Tracking Sheet updated.
I see the Resource Tracking Sheet as something that covers the player because it is intended to cover EVERYTHING the player owns, not just the resources being used by a specific character.
Copies of the resource material is something that covers the character. And copies are only valid if a Resource Tracking Sheet is present.
+1 That's what I mean.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I see the Resource Tracking Sheet as something that covers the player because it is intended to cover EVERYTHING the player owns, not just the resources being used by a specific character.
Copies of the resource material is something that covers the character. And copies are only valid if a Resource Tracking Sheet is present.
I've currently got something like 16 characters registered, and there are several other players I know with at least that many. When I sit down at the table I want one simple sheet per character showing what additional resources are needed to support that character (with one line item per spell/feat/ability/item/..., not just one per reference source). Assuming the existence of such a document, it seems to be a reasonable place to add a column for the GMs or VOs to sign off, rather than having to refer to yet another sheet.
I've considered introducing just such a form at the games stores where I GM; I think of it as a reasonable compromise between the strict "be prepared to bring everything to every game" the rules officially require, and the laissez-faire attitude that reflects the reality I usually encounter. While I don't want to waste everybody's gaming time auditing characters, I don't consider asking player to keep track of what their character actually needs to be too onerous a requirement (especially since the rules make it quite clear that the players are already expected to be doing that, and supplying that information to the GM).
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I agree that it should be easier to prove you own books and not have to be told "well you should've bought the PDF". I also don't mind carrying it around with me, and I have a couple pretty ridiculous characters. That being said, when is the last time you were asked to prove that you own the material you're using?
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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that means you'd need a sheet, per character, updated every time you added an ability from a new book. Each time, and for every new character, you'd need to bring all the physical books and get a VO to sign off on them.
Correct. (Well, except I'd say GMs can sign off, not just VOs).
Currently you're supposed to bring all those materials every time you play the character. My suggestion is a middle ground; you have to show you still have access to the book each time you add an ability from it to any character, but once you've done that you don't have to show the book again until the next time you add something from it.
If you're trying to come up with a solution that you think Paizo would buy into, I suggest you re-read the material quoted in Nefreet's Post earlier in this thread. That makes it look fairly unlikely to me that you'll ever get support for something that lets a single signature eliminate the requirement for a player to ever have to show ownership of a particular resource in perpetuity.
Mind you, all this is moot unless you can persuade Paizo to also decide to accept photocopies from physical books as definitive source material. I'm not holding my breath ...
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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If you're trying to come up with a solution that you think Paizo would buy into, I suggest you re-read the material quoted in Nefreet's Post earlier in this thread. That makes it look fairly unlikely to me that you'll ever get support for something that lets a single signature eliminate the requirement for a player to ever have to show ownership of a particular resource in perpetuity.
Mind you, all this is moot unless you can persuade Paizo to also decide to accept photocopies from physical books as definitive source material. I'm not holding my breath ...
John,
Thank you for advancing the discussion.
I am only suggesting that photocopies be valid in concert with a master list that has the proper "vetting" of resources already done.
I am trying to be careful in find an acceptable alternative, not a complete replacement, to the current rule.
I think your idea, a sheet for every character with each sheet needing to be signed by a GM at a minimum, would be more work for both GMs and players. From my very limited experience, characters have changes to their items and/or ability after each session.
But I would be supportive of it as an alternative.
But you could be right. The "Powers that Be" may not be interested in different alternatives.
I hope not.
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Dotting for interest.
In the past, I've decided not to attend several cons / game days because I realized it was more of a pain than it was worth to bring the gargantuan pile of books which has literally torn the duffel I try to carry them in due to the weight.
If there were a solution that involved photocopies, chronicles, etc. that didn't involve subjecting myself to photography I'd be all about it and would try to attend more games outside of my local area.
-TimD