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Bruno Breakbone, a handsome and beautiful monk, took the FORT and REF saves by CR data tqomins collected, averaged them, and updated spreadsheet. Athletics vs FORT and REF defense (Bestiary 1) From CR 4 and above, Trip will be the easier maneuver to succeed at as the REF save lags behind the FORT save.
Bruno Breakbone, a handsome and beautiful tet--er-- monk, is waiting for someone to compile the average saves of monsters from Bestiary. Until then, here is comparison of Athletics skill and Assurance vs FORT and REF saves based on the playtest monster statistics. Please note: Class-specific ways to boost your athletics skill (like Barbarian's Furious Bully class feat) are not included.
Bruno has no updates because a lot is in flux. Trip still remains the best maneuver (especially with weapon support), Grapple needs another pass, Shove is too situational and Disarm is only good for mooks...and if you're dealing with a mook, why not just drop 'em with standard attack instead? Bruno hope Devs take a look at combat maneuvers and give another rules/mechanics pass. As it is right now, Bruno not very engaged by the current implementation.
Secane: PF1 grapple didn't have any size restrictions, so you could grapple any creature regardless of size differential (you only needed enough CMB or a lucky d20 roll). A 2-size cap is a reduction of power. As for the multiple-grapples, it's a wash(?)--you can grapple more creatures BUT the -5 MAP in PF2 is a much more harsh penalty than a -5 in PF1. Mats: Bruno believes that Trip is the go to maneuver now--not only are the DCs lower (see table at end of post), but it has weapon support with trip weapons and now this finesse clarification. Mudfoot: You need CON as a frontliner, so you simply take STR as the free bonus. Assurance is a mixed bag, but for trivial/low checks and the ability to ignore any penalties, Bruno feel it absolutely in the wheelhouse of a grappler who will most likely doing many athletic-based things. TABLE OF 18 STR, MAX ATHLETICS GRAPPLER VS FORT DEFENSE -- Bruno's take aways: Grapple suffers in comparison to Trip, which not only faces (usually) lower DCs, but can add in weapon bonuses because of the many trip weapon options. Other question Bruno's been wondering--can you use Assurance on Athletics when used to trip/grapple?
Bruno is working on a guide. Until then, he have a general discussion thread here. Re: damage during grapple - it seems that it is intended you use one action to grapple and the remaining actions to strike.
Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori monk, is currently poring through the playtest materials and working on a very rough guide to PF2 combat maneuvers. Bruno welcome all thoughts and discussion and looks forward to seeing how initial analysis changes after we see maneuvers in actual play. PF1 to PF2 Overview:
CMB and CMD no longer exist, so without the full-, ¾- or half-BAB progressions of PF1, theoretically any PF2 class can be good at basic combat maneuvers if A) they can max their STR and B) can make Athletics a Signature Skill. However, certain classes are built with the ability to enhance their attacks/maneuvers, giving them better action economy and DPR. At a glance:
POSITIVE CHANGES
NEGATIVE CHANGES
Early Maneuver Rankings:
(*): A poor option. (**): An OK option. (***): A recommended option. (***): A great option. DISARM (*) vs REF: If you succeed...you only grant a +2 circumstance bonus on further disarm attempts until the start of the creature’s turn. So, since all maneuvers are tagged attack, if you attempted to disarm your foe with your first attack and “succeeded”--they’d still have their weapon and you’d continue your way down the multi-attack penalty line (-5 on your second disarm attempt, -3 if you “successfully” disarmed on the previous attempt). On the positive side, someone else could use their best attack with the +2 bonus to attempt to disarm the foe and hope for a Critical Success...or you both could just attack. Disarm Weapon Support: 10 weapons...but since Disarm is hot garbage, it’s better to get a weapon that supports another maneuver (like trip) and treat the disarm trait as a situational option. GRAPPLE (**to***) vs FORT: Grapple is a mixed bag but definitely has been nerfed from it’s PF1 incarnation. You no longer can grapple creatures much larger than you (2 sizes larger max), but you only need one free hand and suffer no penalty for using just that one hand. You can no longer maintain a grapple and damage at the same (with one monk class feat exception)--in the 3 action economy, it seems like you are expected to Grapple with one action and then Strike on subsequent actions. There is no grappling “flow”--your opponent’s status can fluctuate between Grabbed and Restrained from round-to-round depending on how you roll...with no way to progress from Grabbed to Restrained. Currently, there are no rules for tying up a foe. Finally, Critical Failure is really bad for a grappler--your opponent can reverse the grapple and give you the grabbed condition or force you to fall prone! Until we see how grappling plays out in actual games, this Grapple is a situational 2- or 3-star maneuver. Grapple Weapon Support: 0 weapons. Not even a net. SHOVE (*to**) vs FORT: Like Grapple, Shove is a mixed bag. While you can now Shove creatures 2 sizes larger than you, you can only push them 5 feet, 10 feet on a Critical Success (vs the scaling distance you had in PF1). Furthermore, there is the risk of falling prone on a Critical Failure. As AOOs have been severely reduced, Shove is situational at best. Shove Weapon Support: 5 weapons. Of note, this includes the only d12 weapon capable of a maneuver--the Maul. TRIP (****) vs REF: Trip has been given some love in PF2. On a success, a creature is tripped; on a Critical Success, it also takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage--while not much, it does make those Nat 20s or Critical Successes feel good at the table. Another boost is that Trip now inherently works on flying creatures (Prone Condition: “If you’re Climbing or Flying when you would be knocked prone, you fall instead.”) Critical failure, as always, is you falling prone instead. Trip Weapon Support: 13(!) weapons...but half are gated as Uncommon weapons. For martial melee weapons, the Guisarme has high damage and Reach, making it a nice control option while the Scythe with Deadly makes for wicked crits. For uncommon martial weapons, Monks with the Monastic Weaponry class feat should consider the Temple Sword; Goblins and Gnomes with the Weapon Familiarity ancestry feat should consider the Horsechopper (reach, versatile P) and Gnome hook hammer (two-hand d10, versatile P) respectively. Suggested Stat Array:
Athletics is STR-based, so you’ll always be looking to pump your STR as much as possible. DEX edges out CON as the inflated L1 HP gives you some cushion. WIS improves your mental defense and perception. INT and CHA are your low-priority stats. For martials, your stat array:
If you are caster that focuses on self-buffing:
Ancestries:
When looking at Ancestries, we’re generally looking for a non-STR Ability Flaw, medium size (so you can affect up to huge-sized foes), and solid HP. For traits, we’ll be looking for options that directly increase our Athletics, improve our defenses (since we’ll be in melee), give us access to maneuver weapons or give other useful options. TL;DR RATINGS -- full breakdown will be in guide
Backgrounds:
While the backgrounds are pretty varied, we want to make sure that we can follow STR > DEX > CON > WIS (or Casting Stat). Since this is primarily from the POV of martial characters if a background forces INT or CHA, it’s automatically 1 star, adjust as necessary if you’re a caster. If a background grants you the ability to take STR and either DEX or CON, it’s 2 stars. Farmhand is 4 stars because we get Assurance in Athletics and we will keep that maxed during our career. Acolyte (***): STR or WIS + Free. Student of the Canon, (Deity) Lore. Acrobat (***): STR or DEX + Free. Steady Balance, trained in Circus Lore. Animal Whisperer (**): WIS or CHA + Free. Train Animal, Animal Lore. Barkeep (***): CON or CHA + Free. Hobnobber, Alcohol Lore. Blacksmith (***): STR or INT + Free. Specialty Crafting, Blacksmith Lore. Criminal (***): DEX or INT + Free. Experienced Smuggler, Underworld Lore. Entertainer (***): DEX or CHA + Free. Fascinating Performance, Entertainment Lore. Farmhand (****): CON or WIS + Free. Assurance (Athletics), Farming Lore. Gladiator (***): STR or CHA + Free. Fascinating Performance, Gladiatorial Lore. Hunter (***): DEX or WIS + Free. Survey Wildlife, Hunting Lore. Laborer (***): STR or CON + Free. Robust Recovery, Labor Lore. Merchant (*): INT or CHA + Free. Bargain Hunter, Mercantile Lore. Noble (*): INT or CHA + Free. Courtly Graces, Nobility Lore. Nomad (***): CON or WIS + Free. Assurance (Survival), (Terrain) Lore Sailor (***): STR or DEX + Free. Underwater Marauder, Sailing Lore Scholar (**): INT or WIS + Free. Assurance (Arc/Nat/Occ/Rel), Academia Lore Scout (***): DEX or WIS + Free. Forager, Scouting Lore. Street Urchin (***): DEX or INT + Free. Pickpocket, Underworld Lore. Warrior (***): STR or CON + Free. Quick Repair, Warfare Lore. Classes:
Bruno working on this section right now. Bruno currently work his way through Barbarian (***), Fighter (****) and Monk (TBD). Ranger, Rogue and Paladin next. You can view the evolution of this section at the google doc linked at the top of the post. Maneuver Weapons:
A list of weapons able to deliver maneuvers. A more thorough breakdown and rating of weapon traits that complement maneuver builds will be forthcoming. Helpful conditions:
The following conditions are helpful in that either they lower your enemy’s defense (FORT or REF) or penalize a relevant skill (Acrobatics or Athletics to escape a grapple). Whether you can inflict these yourself or a fellow party member drops these on your enemy, these definitely make your job as a lockdown artist much easier!
Fatigued: -1 AC and saving throws per action until the start of your next turn Frightened: Penalty to checks and saving throws Sick: Penalty on all checks Sluggish: Conditional penalty to AC, attack rolls, Dexterity-based checks, and Reflex saves Magic Items:
This section is hyper-focused on items that specifically boost your STR, your Athletics skill or a specific maneuver.
Armbands of Athleticism (L9 or L17)
Bruno welcome your thoughts and experiences as the playtest continues.
Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, think about grappling. Always. 1) You want high STR and proficiency invested into Athletics as that is your grapple "attack" score. 2) You want high CON and proficiency invested into FORT save as that is your opponent's grapple escape DC. 3) You want good DEX and proficiency invested into Unarmored (as monk) as your foe will obviously attack you. If you're a STR-based monk, that means you need to invest in STR, CON, DEX (for AC) and possibly WIS. Monks get proficiency in a save (which you can keep investing in) as a class feature, so that helps shore up FORT for grapple. Also, there's the whole Resonance thing... Bruno really curious about potential maneuver-centric feats (like Agile Manuevers equivalent), stances (like Turtle Shell equivalent) or skill-specific feats/boosters (for Athletics). Bruno know it too early with too little knowledge for true theory-crafting, but it help pass time.
Bruno thinking that PF2 Prone condition will be either -2 AC penalty (down from -4 AC in PF1) or incur Flat-Footed condition. Thank you, Deadmanwalking!
Bruno thinking that PF2 Prone condition will be either -2 AC penalty (down from -4 AC in PF1) or incur Flat-Footed condition. Reasoning: -4 AC penalty is almost too strong in PF2 math, but -2 AC penalty seems right. If Prone were a -4 AC penalty AND you were flanking target for another -2 AC penalty, that's a -6 AC penalty--which is huge in the >10< system...hence why Bruno think it will be reduced to -2 AC penalty. If Prone penalty not reduced AND stackable with flank, then trippers are must-have for humanoid-heavy campaigns for easier crits. If Prone simply incur Flat-Footed condition (so no double dip on flank), that disappointing because it feel counter-intuitive to gang up and beat down foe on floor, but the AC penalty is the same if you were alone. Possibility: Prone is -4 AC penalty, but is Circumstance type penalty, so it does not stack with Flat-Footed condition (which is -2 AC circumstance penalty). This seem slightly more fidgety than just making prone a flat -2 AC penalty.
Maneuvers will be an Athletics skill check against the opponent’s (REF or FORT save + 10). Bruno explain why that is a possible issue in Bruno original post ;)
Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori monk, has question: is Flat-Footed only a -2 AC penalty? Since combat maneuvers attack FORT or REF defense now (and not CMD), it seem flanking an opponent not help you trip, disarm, grapple, etc.; in PF1 you get +2 attack bonus for flanking which apply to your maneuver (as it is an attack roll). In PF2, opponent get -2 to AC...but you don't target AC with maneuver check in PF2. Bruno understand we don't have all information yet, but just in case: is it intentional that maneuvers don't benefit from flanking?
Bruno wishful thinking: If you want to protect niche of monks as maneuver masters, perhaps give ability/feat at higher levels that allow them to target weaker of FORT or REF with maneuver regardless of what it usually targets. Maybe a legendary feat that allow to use WIS as ability stat vs WILL DC for a maneuver, playing up the mental/mystic angle of high-level monkery.
Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori monk, collect info on combat maneuvers from various sources while on break from teaching gym classes to babymuscle wizards at Academae. Here is what Bruno know so far: COMBAT MANEUVERS
Bruno not know if there will be PF2 equivalent of the Agile Maneuvers feat. OPPOSING DC
Bruno best guesses for relevant save:
GRAPPLED CONDITION PENALTIES?
EXAMPLE MONSTER STATS
MATHING IT OUT
If Bruno was a handsome and beautiful 3rd level monk with 18 STR and expert proficiency in Athletics, his grapple bonus would be:
Bruno, who also a high-flying and flexible 3rd level monk with 14 DEX but only trained in Acrobatics, his trip bonus would be:
Even though Bruno could easily grapple all monsters (as Bruno do), trip equally attractive option for Ogre as it targets weakest defense. THINGS TO PONDER
Updated question: Will there be feats to increase Athletics/Acrobatics bonuses in general or maneuvers specifically? If Improved (Maneuver) and Greater (Maneuver) no longer exist, will we see skill feats specific to particular maneuvers that grant additional effects? Examples: Master Proficiency in Acrobatics and Level 7 allows you to take a trip skill feat to trip a creature 2 sizes larger or perhaps trip them into any square adjacent to you? Legendary Trip feat allows you to trip ANY size creature and inflict a condition as well? Maybe additional effects on Critical Successes? Since combat maneuvers attack FORT or REF defense (not CMD), flanking an opponent does not help you; in PF1, you would get +2 attack bonus for flanking which would apply to your maneuver. In PF2, opponent gets a -2 to AC -- and you don't target AC with maneuver in PF2. If Bruno make any mistake, please let Bruno know!
Mea Culpa! For Kossar's question, Bruno double checked progression and realized he left out a rage power pick up at L9...the consequence being an open feat at L11! And to answer your question, Kossar: Toughness becomes Extra Rage Power: Superstition The Final Feats:
The Corrected Progession:
If you don't want to rush Rapid Grappler with retraining, you can take RG at L11 and grab something else at L9 (perhaps Planar Wildshape for SR, DR and resistances--if something penetrates SR, then you have Superstition/Monk-dip boosted saves as your defense-in-depth).
Bruno needs to meet Teht, my Grappling Grippli. Text sounds like Bruno’s kind of frog! Bruno never get Grippli boon, otherwise Bruno definitely would have made a Grippli Grappler (the Grippler)!
Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, always consider Strangler...but can never quite fit it into a build (yet)! Bruno, to be very honest, may have tunnel vision going Barbarian for Animal Fury and Spell Sunder--especially because this build would have no anti-Freedom of Movement otherwise. Also, SS is great combat utility ability to have for the party when dealing with stupid dumdum caster spells. Bruno almost always take Power Attack on grapple builds because when you get 2-3 grapple checks to damage a round, the -(x) to HIT is easily countered by +5 CMB to maintain. It easy "free" damage...and with things like Pinning KO doubling that static damage very nice. For example, at L9 with Power Attack and Pinning KO, it's 6 additional damage on a grapple to damage, 12 if creature susceptible to non-lethal--do three grapples to damage with Rapid Grappler and that an easy 18-36 bonus damage per round. Ideally, at L9 the 36 non-lethal Power Attack damage is 1/3 of the average HP for CR 9 creature (i.e. mook) or 1/4-1/5 the average HP of a CR 12 foe (i.e. typical boss). To be fair, Bruno very biased towards grapple DPS builds over grapple control builds. Also, when Bruno can't grapple, having high STR, a 2H weapon and Power Attack means he can still contribute (somewhat). It rare when happen, but Bruno believe in being ready for that situation. Finally, for Strangler: At 1st level, a strangler deals +1d6 sneak attack damage whenever she succeeds at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent. The example pounce attack has no grapple actions to damage and only one pin attempt (with the Flurry of Maneuvers bonus grapple) in the first round. However, that second round with 2-3 grapple attempts to damage it would be very nice to get that L2 Brawler 2d6 x (# of grapples to damage)! Ugh, Selvaxri, don't make Bruno head hurt with dip possibilities.
Have you considered playing a straight Beastkin Berserker Barbarian? Bruno did not because 'Bruno want to challenge self to use full BAB shifter dip to make a PFS-legal pouncing grappler who pins on the charge.' ;) You get access to Beast Shape III at Level 12 (unlike the Shifter who is restricted to Beast Shape II). Bruno has 16 or so PFS characters. Only 3 or so are Seekers (L17 Life Oracle, L16 Bruno, and L12 DimDoor Shield Basher). Bruno also GM lots. Planning for a L12 ability never really a consideration in Bruno's builds because it rare to actually play that high where people haven't already burnt their playthroughs of PFS sanctioned mods/APs. Also, with a dip of MM Monk, it would be a L13 ability... Plus, you can select any legal Beast Shape creature, unlike the Shifter who is limited to a list of 12. For this build, you go with a pounce build with (hopefully) many grab attempts. That's pretty much Tiger, which you don't qualify for until 8th level--9th with MM dip (alternately: any multi-grab creature when you have the Greater Beast Totem (10th, 11th with MM)). For those not familiar with Beastkin Beserker, while you have all the legal forms to choose from, you are locked into specific forms you choose at 1, 5, 10, etc. So at L5 you could choose Dire Tiger but you could not transform into it until L8...meaning from L4-7 you are locked into a small/medium form that is inferior to what Shifter has had from L4 and you surpass them form-wise only come L12 (which Bruno does not consider for builds). I think the archetype was nerfed in PFS to be more in line with Mooncursed (in that the bonuses from Beast Shape replace Rage bonuses, rather than stack alongside them), but even then, I feel like you gain way more by staying a single classed Barbarian than you would by going Shifter for 4 levels. Bruno can't find any such info. Any links? However, Beastkin Barbarian very good archetype, but for purpose of this build--pounce, multi-grab, pin in round 1 as soon as possible--it not best fit. Mainly, Strength Surge--the best rage power for people interested in Combat Maneuvers--gives you a bonus equal on the roll equal to your Barbarian level. Plus you get great saves against magic with Superstitious, and decent defenses with the DR from Invulnerable Rager. With Invulnerable Rager + the Stalwart Feat + Improved Stalwart, you become pretty difficult to take down even with a lack of armor. Bruno agree with Strength Surge. For this build, with CMB of 28 before grapple boosting magic items at L7, Bruno auto-succeed vs average CMD for equal CR and, with magic items, easily make grapple work all the way until retirement at L12. If Bruno were to play past L11, he would definitely get Strength Surge! For this build, Bruno have Superstition. While not as good as pure beastkin barb, a level of monk is very nice for all-good saves bump. Also, if Bruno weren't in hurry to get Superstition > Witch Hunter > Spellsunder, he would pick up Planar Wildshape--the scaling Resistances, DR (esp L11+) are amazing. To be clear, Bruno do appreciate suggestion of Beastkin! Thank you, Kaouse! Bruno putting Beastkin Barbarian in pocket for future characters. However, for this build, Bruno feel it not right.
Re: Constable Bruno think that an option but:
2) Constable grapple is in place of attack (so you lose some DPS from a natural attack that has grab) vs free additional maneuver from the MM Monk. 3) While there is Order of the Hammer's free grapple on full attack ability, you only have 1 challenge unless you commit several levels in cavalier. 4) However, the Full BAB is nice. Re: Bushwhack 1) Bruno think Bushwhack is wack because it require a creature to be both unaware of your presence AND specifically flat-flooted. Very very situational and usable pretty much only in the very first round of combat. 2) Bruno once theory craft a MM Monk 1 then Ninja X using a Seven Branched Sword (can use to make trip attempt that leaves victim flat footed instead of prone). You would: Full Attack, Trip/Flatfoot Target, Swift Action turn invisible via Vanishing Trick, use the Flurry Bonus Grapple, then get Free Action Bushwhack Grapple to pin. Yes, there are things like Shatter Defenses but trying to invest in that chain, the grappling chain and turning invisible is just brutal.
How do you bypass the barbarian/monk lawful alignment conflict? Take monk level before the barbarian levels. Even if you become ex-monk by changing to non-lawful alignment to become barbarian, you still retain all monk abilities (reverse is not true for barbarian-to-monk multiclassing). All you want is single level of Maneuver Master monk for flurry of manuevers. Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, may have have handsome and beautiful tetori friend who took too many [redacted S4 boons] in PFS and became ex-tetori/brutal pugilist...
Just checking, would it be possible to make this build using a wildshaped druid instead? (Assuming the character gets the feat to up wildshape by 4 levels.) Bruno say yes but 3/4 BAB of 4 Druid levels make retraining of feats more mandatory. If you use the stat array for the Pouncer Grappler above, you'd need to drop a point into DEX at level 4 so it is 15 and when you shapeshift and drop to 13 and you keep Improved/Greater Grapple active. L1 Maneuver Monk: Feat: Toughness, Bonus: Dirty Fighting, Monk-Imp Grapple L2 Druid L3 Druid: Burner Feat L4 Druid L5 Druid: Natural Spell, Retrain Burner to Shaping Focus. You can do a pouncing leopard (grab on bite) or whatever else grabs your fancy. L6 Barbarian. Dire Tiger Form comes online L7 Barbarian Rage Power: Animal Fury, Feat Extra Rage L8 Barbarian. Dire Lion comes online. L9 Barbarian. Greater Grapple This a quick and dirty build focusing on the pouncing aspect with Maneuver Monk. There probably smoother progression of retrained feats, but this a quick rough go at a build. The loss of the 1 BAB delay Greater Grapple to L9 (or L8 if aggressive with retrains and want to dump Toughness or Dirty Fighting). This post have some advice on grappling animal forms (not all have pounce, but good reference).
Bruno, a handsome and beautiful Tetori, try to figure out how to use Shifter as grappler. While Bruno could obviously go with Druid, Bruno want to challenge self to use full BAB shifter dip to make a PFS-legal pouncing grappler who pins on the charge. Maneuver Master Monk 1/Shifter 4/Brutal Pugilist Barbarian X Build:
Human STR 18 (+2 went here) DEX 14 CON 14 INT 9 WIS 14 CHA 7 Trait: Bred For War, Reactionary L1 Shifter: Power Attack, (Human) Toughness
For Brutal Pugilist maneuvers, choose CMB for Grapple and Sunder Key Abilities:
Tiger Minor Aspect: You gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Dexterity score. Tiger Major Aspect: Your shape changes to that of a dire tiger. While in this form, you gain a base speed of 40 feet, low-light vision, scent (30 feet), the grab ability with both your bite and claw attacks, and pounce. Pounce: When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack Shifter's Rush: When you use a move action to move 10 feet or more or when you charge, you can use wild shape as a free action during that movement. Flurry of Maneuvers: At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. Animal Fury: A barbarian can make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is made. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made by the barbarian against the target this round are at a +2 bonus. Things to Discuss with your GM AKA Table Variation YMMV:
1) Retraining rules 2) If you grapple with a grab in the initial natural attacks, can you use the bonus maneuver from Flurry of Maneuvers to grapple and pin? 3) Double check that GM is ok with Animal Fury working with the Dire Tiger bite (i.e. getting bonus bite attacks during a grapple maintain). 4) Reasonable amount of free actions in a turn vis a vis this build Only Magic Item Used in Example Pounce Attack:
While there are many grappler standard magic items you should buy for the example pounce attack only this item is factored in: Anaconda’s Coils: The wearer gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +2 competence bonus on grapple combat maneuver checks. Treat the enhancement bonus to Strength as temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn. In addition, the belt grants the wearer the constrict ability for 1d6 points of damage plus the wearer’s Strength modifier. Pouncing Flurry of Maneuvers at Level 7:
While you can pounce with a flurry of maneuvers at L5, the build picks steam when adding in Animal Fury with 2 Levels of Barbarian and picking up Greater Grapple. At Level 7, before Power Attack or Pounce bonuses:
Again, as noted previously, the only magic item equipped in this example is the Anaconda's Coils. The hit and damage can easily be boosted. Round 1
Charge
Bite
Claw 1
Claw 2
Bonus Maneuver
Total Pounce Damage:
Round 2
-or- 2 Grapples (Normal + Greater Grapple) for
Grapple to damage (twice)
Very Partial List of Magic Items to Consider: Headband: +WIS Neck: Furious Dueling AoMF, Holy AoMF or Furious Merciful AoMF Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance Body: Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes Belt: Anaconda's Coils Hand: Gauntlet of the Skilled Maneuver - Grapple then Mantis Embrace Wrist: Armbands of the Brawler (until supplanted by Anaconda's coils) Ring: Protection, Eloquence Slotless: Dusty Rose Ioun Stone slotted into Wayfinder
Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, would like to respectfully clarify that HELPLESS and PINNED are two different conditions. A PINNED creature is not HELPLESS. A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets. A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. If Bruno tie up a PINNED target, then they become HELPLESS.
Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, hope there will be options for higher-level wrestlers to grapple multiple foes or do damage during a grapple. Part of the “grapple fantasy” is headlocking a dum-dum mook under each arm or bearhugging a babymuscle baddie to death.
Now I've got the idea of a fox shape kitsune tetori monk in my head...thanks for that ;) Minor derail Spoiler: Bruno, a handsome and beautiful normal-sized tetori, think on handsome and beautiful teeny tiny tetori.
It require lot of juggling and not really come online until L4 for monk (BAB +3 required for Fox Shape feat). You need Agile Maneuvers until you get Fox Shape (which you basically get in fox shape for being tiny), then you retrain it...unless you don't grapple until Fox Shape is available. Feat progression locked by needs of build: L1 Weapon Finesse, L3 Agile Maneuvers (or Open), L5 Fox Shape, L7 Open, L9 Rapid Grappler, L11 Open When in fox shape: Stunning Fist doesn't work as you need an unarmed strike. The tetori action economy boosters--Grab and Snapping Turtle Clutch--don't work as you need unarmed strike or a free hand respectively. You can only grapple one creature at time (with mouth) and cannot tie up creature (no hands). Anaconda's Coils are no go because you can only constrict Tiny or smaller creatures and the damage is 1d6 + STR mod (which is prob neg)--also you want belt slot for DEX. You'd want Kraken Style feats if you want to do damage (adding WIS + Feat Bonus on top of your Agile AoMF), otherwise, Dodge/Mobility/Canny Tumble for positioning. Bruno think it funny to see heatseeking fox grapple huge foe and pin them, fox tetori is even tinier niche of a normally niche build
Pirate sails away before Bruno realize feint isn't combat maneuver. Bruno enemy only maneuver in combat is to faint when Bruno hug them. Bruno just figured feint is fake faint...but it ain’t. Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, ponder this while pretty boat sail away.
Why should the same maneuver (or maneuvers at all) be the right solution for every combat? Bruno, a handsome and beautiful Tetori monk, grapple memory and quote self:
Shouldn't I get it when I maintain to damage whether they are pinned or not? Bruno apologize he missed that. You are correct. Bruno think we talking past each other (which can happen when talking about so many damage riders and bonuses--Bruno only talking about Power Attack in previous example. From the rest of yoru comments, it seem you have strong grasp of your options and interactions and see no issue with anything you posited (re: hidden strike)
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