Well in the long run it could cause some issues. 3pp's kinda pick up the slack in the suppliment arena...seems to me at least. Kinda takes the pressure off of WotC. No 3pp's doing those books could cause some problems for WotC in the end. If they are counting on 3pp's to pick up the slack.
I mean if their plan is to get 3pp's on board..and they don't want to...they could always just say "Screw you guys!" and get rid of the GSL all together. I would almost rather they do that. Then there wouldn't be any argument.
Stefan Hill wrote:
I agree...although there is NO WAY IN HELL Hasbro is ever going to let that IP go. That would be like letting Transformers or G.I. Joe go to Matel. That's just crazy talk! 8)
Scott Betts wrote:
Xaaon of Xen'Drik was an example of the echo. The idea that corporate drones are trying to tell you how to roll your dice has been bandied about for a few months now, here and elsewhere - to say nothing of calling every new development a "death knell" when all actual data supports the notion that 4th Edition is not only selling well, but satisfying customers enough to generate that kind of enthusiasm for supplements (It's now #39 on the bestsellers list, and #22 on their hot new items list).
See...this is my problem...I think that your argument goes both ways. 4e supporters get trapped in their own "Echo Chamber" or whatever you call it. That 4e is the end all be all. 4e supporters constantly point to "DATA" that shows that it's flying of the shelves and doing HUGE numbers. I wouldn't call Amazon's "Best Seller" list proof of 4e uber success. There are many other retail outlets you have to look at. Barnes and Noble, Borders, Gaming stores etc. 4e books aren't exactly flying off the shelves round here...granted they are selling. I don't have numbers so I won't go quoting any data etc. Just my observations.
I have noticed increased interest in older games like Rifts, Shadow Run etc. I don't know how well they are selling but I know that folks are asking about them.
As far as 3pp's. I would think that Notable 3pp's choosing NOT to go with 4e IS damaging to 4e. New up and coming publishers are looking to the notable ones for guidance of a sort. If they see successful 3pp's like GR and Paizo jumping ship on the GSL...it's going to make them think twice.
Well I think until they achieve NO RANDOMNESS they are not listening entirely. Many RPGers want to be able to buy what they need for their game when they need it. I for one do not want to buy multiple packs of minis and hope that I get what I need. I also do not want to have to go to Ebay and pay a premium for a figure I need due to it's randomness and rarity.
I was so excited about Reapers plastic minis. Problem is their selection is so limited. Hopefully they will start putting out more figures soon.
Anyways they have good intentions but WotC did not go that extra mile on this one. Of course we haven't seen any new packaging yet. It's possible that new packaging may allow you to actually see what your buying but who the heck knows with WotC these days.
Well first off this is a completely different setting than the core 3.5 D&D setting. It's entirely appropriate that if Paizo wants to change it up a bit they can.
Also I wouldn't say that the Rogue has been a non-magical class. As far as core classes, in 3.5 and now, how many of them got Use Magical Device as a class skill? Sorcerer, Wizard, Bard and Rogue. I think that if a class is going to have the ability to use a magic device then they should at least have a slight magical aptitude.
As far as Barbarians...I totally could see Barbarians having a spiritual or magical connection to the land. Tapping into their inner strength as well as that from a totem etc.
Sorry but the new flavor just makes sense to me.
I say keep the magical abilities in play.
Not to mention...Sneak attack does NOT work on everything. Pg. 40 states "...Creatures that do not have a weak spot at all, either due to a homogenous nature or near indestructible build, are immune to sneak attack. Examples MIGHT include air, earth, fire, and water elementals, most oozes and some undead."
It implicitly states that Sneak Attack is finding a weak spot not striking vital organs. Makes complete sense, due to the new fluff, that sneak attack works on a wider array of monsters now.
Vulcan Stormwrath wrote:
Exactly what I was going to say. Everyone get's so hung up on rules they forget the fluff aspect. Undead certainly can be severely disabled. Sure they can soak up damage from crits but a sneak attack is a sneaky slice to the hamstring. A bashed kneecap. etc. Lop off a zombies leg or sever the spine and the zombie is much less a threat.
Now my other issue is comments about the Rogue being TOO good in a fight. A Rogue SHOULD be good in a fight. They should be quick and agile, able to duck, weave, and slash at their opponent. they should be hard to hit and pack a punch. The trade off is that they are fairly delicate. yes they have an increased HD BUT they are still pretty delicate. I'm at 17 HP at second lvl. We were running up against some foes that if they had hit me could easily drop me to unconscious in one swipe.
Personally I feel the new rogue is even more exciting to play with much more flavor and tricks up their sleeves. Don't change a thing.
Gary Teter wrote:
WOW...those are his baser impulses? I'm sure he does want PFRPG to be the best it can be but even his baser impulses are destructive to the process.
We all know that gamers take their characters very seriously. Calling someones character crap or saying it sucks or is retarded because of the way the gamer built it is insulting to many. I'm sure he disagrees but that's the way it is.
Your the boss though. I just have to wonder how many "Warnings" people like P-R are going to get.
Gary Teter wrote:
Ok...visited an FLGS that I don't usually frequent. mainly cause the guys that own/work there are crazy paranoid about shoplifters and stalk you in the store. NOT that I'm trying to steel from them but it's just REALLY wierd! That and they're not usually the most personable guys to talk to.
ANYWAYS...they had 4 copies of Beta and multiple chronicles and AP books. I asked if they had been selling well. The owner said they were having trouble keeping them in stock! The Beta's he's got he SAID are the last ones they will be able to get and the other books just don't stay on the shelf.
Of course I had to ask, and please don't take this as an anti 4e statement, how 4e was doing. He said that it was selling well in the beginning but that sales had really fallen off and the majority of those customers have come back and picked up Pathfinder as an alternative. He personally is REALLY happy with Pathfinder and has no desire to go 4e.
Anyways take that for whatever you want. It's just the FLGS Owners opinion. They did have quite a bit of 4e books. If that's normal or if it's because it's not selling I really didn't go into with him. He doesn't think they will be ordering much 4e in the near future though.
Seems as though Pathfinder is really gaining a foothold in my area! It's exciting! IN fact I'm joining my first Beta group next Sunday!! I can hardly wait!
A 4e board on the Paizo website full of Pathfinder fans...You should not be shocked when the initial poo is flung. I will go on to say that once said poo has been flung, flinging it back does not set a very good example for your argument here. Not saying that you personally are flinging the poo.
I will agree with you however that the poo shouldn't have been flung in the first place BUT it's a two way street. Don't say or act like the 4e fans here on the 4e boards are innocent. There are just as many poo-flingers from both sides.
It's pretty sad that the gaming community has come to this really. I don't like 4e but I'm content to let it's fans play their game. What I will say is shame on WotC. It's not 4e but the way they've conducted themselves in presenting it to the community I think that has caused the split.
While I will refrain from the 4e sucks thing...I really don't care if it's good or not...I will again point out that at least Paizo gives you the option of discussing 4e on their boards. When was the last time you saw an official "Pathfinder" forum on the WotC boards?
Feel free to discuss 4e all you want and I truly am sorry that some choose to dump on it. Be the better person and ignore them. That means that taking shots at Pathfinder fans isn't making things any better and probably partly why people keep attacking the 4e fans here. For example the people turned away from the WotC Ballroom would fill the Pathfinder room all by themselves. NOt helping your argument. Granted if it's really that big an issue...You do have other 4e discussion destinations to choose from.
The Gnome getting excited about being a "MONSTER!! GRRRRR" was pretty funny too.
Although I'm one of the oddities that actually LIKED playing Gnomes. Love the new Pathfinder Gnomes!
Scott Betts wrote:
True true...but one thing you miss Mr. Betts is the extension of Paizo's "Care and Respect" towards 4e WotC fans such as yourself. The same cannot be said for WotC. Do they have a "Pathfinder" section on THEIR boards to allow their prior customers to discuss their competitors products? No they don't. I choose to no longer post on their boards but I do look in once or twice a month. I do notice that ANY mention of Paizo/Pathfinder seems to get a $#!T storm dumped on them by both 4e fans and WotC Employees/Volunteers alike. Yes that happens here in the 4e forums at times by Paizo fans yet when was the last time you saw any Paizo employees joining in the insults? DO you see Paizo making silly little Tongue and Cheek Videos making fun of ANYBODY...Period? NO, they have more class than that. Thankfully WotC did do ONE good thing lately and got rid of the worst offender Mr. Gamer-Zero. I personally could care less about the video. I found it neither funny nor insulting. I haven't quite made up my mind about your posts however. Perhaps we need a Troll insulting anti-WotC gamers...to Poop on. (sorry Triumph...I couldn't resist)
OH and how about a link to some of those RPG sites that are linking to the Paizo boards and apparently laughing at these threads...
I was working as a school photographer back then. I remember being at a school taking pictures. Parents started showing up and taking their kids home. I mean nearly HALF the school was empty!!! NOBODY EVER came down to tell us what was going on. They didn't want to talk about it in front of the kids etc. SO we finished up and loaded my equipment up in my truck. I remember thinking how quiet it was outside. The school wasn't that far from the airport and man it was just deathly quiet. It wasn't until I got into the car and turned on the radio, around 2 or so in the afternoon, that I found out what had happened. I got home and my TV was on CNN for DAYS and the radio was on the AM news radio as well.
Sorry dude...This post got soooo buried down the line that I almost forgot about it!!
I wish we had a PM option here. Anyways I've got 3 other players on board to start up my own group here in Arlington. Problem is that they won't play without 4 PC's so I'm still looking for one more.
Hopefully you'll see/read this response. My email is in my profile so you can Email me directly if your interested and haven't already found someone. I'm also on the Facebook Pathfinder group and the Texas Gamers group on Yahoo.
Give me a hollar!
Vic Wertz wrote:
Cool. I was just surprised to see it!! Was kinda exciting.
So is your group ONLY going to meet on Sundays? My group is set to meet every 1st and 3rd Sunday but we're having some communication problems at the moment. If my group isn't able to get it together I know that, if you still need people, there is myself and one or two other folks that will be looking for a group.
A friend of mine asked me to add the facebook app "Elven Blood" One of the quests is to defend the village from a Goblin attack. The art work for the Goblins is straight out of RotRL Pathfinder issue 1!!! I don't know who wrote the app but I'm curious if they had to get permission from Paizo to use their Pathfinder Goblin artwork?!
Well your doing better than I. I've read through this PDF forwards and backwards and I STILL can't find what page the rules for Poison etc. are on! Am I just blind folks?!
As I posted in one of P-R's threads...
I don't think it's necessarily broken. I mean in one combat I can have a Wizard wipe out a whole swath of enemies with a well placed Fireball while the fighter struggles to fend off 2 or 3 attackers at the same time. The balance comes in when one of those 2 or 3 attackers gets past the Fighter and closes with the Wizard. The Wizard probably isn't going to last long while the Fighter will probably survive. I think that's actually fairly balanced. I think it's more about the relationship between the two class' rolls in combat. Personally if your trying to play a Wizard like a Fighter then yeah I could see how people would feel that it's unbalanced. If your playing a fighter getting 1 or 2 kills per combat but the Wizard in your party is dropping 5 or 6 more with Fireballs and Lightning bolts then I also see how you could see them as unbalanced. BUT remember that if the Wizard was not there then the fighter would be dealing with many more targets and find it much harder to survive the encounter. The Wizard, without the fighter, would be dead...usually...my one Wizard vs 3 Drow story being an example of EXTREME luck I'm sure.
I think it's more about perspective than anything.
hrmmm...still seems like Goldfarb is being a bit snarky. I could be wrong though.
So it's OK to say "Well I have not experienced a Wizard really being more powerful than a Fighter. Yes he can drop a fireball into the middle of a huge mass of wolves and kill the majority of them. The Fighter was struggling with just 2 or 3. The Fighter DID however survive while when 1 or 2 wolves slipped past him my Wizard went down hard and fast. In my experience the Wizard is not more powerful than the Fighter."
Granted that same Wizard was somehow able to go up against a Drow Sorcerer and a couple of Drow Soldiers. He didn't kill any of them but he seriously injured and incapacitated them in the process, and made it out alive to tell the story. Could a Fighter pull that off? I'm sure that he could given the right circumstances. I think to a great extent that it boils down to play style and luck of the roll as to which class is really more powerful.
Another example would be that while yes Grapple was confusing in the beginning, with time and practice we were able to use that rule with little to no slow down and with confidence. As a group we did not think the rule was broken and did not really need to be fixed, for us. We had a different experience with it. We are not however oblivious to others who seemed to have trouble with it. And we have welcomed the change. Just saying though that if they had not fixed it it would have been a non issue for us.
The Gate and Wish spell mechanics. Again in my groups experience there has been no exploiting of these spells. There has been no summoning of XP. There has been no Wishing for unbalancing or overpowering sums of Gold, Items etc. I don't doubt that the exploits are there. Should it be fixed? In my opinion I don't think that it's a fix that should be at the top of their list that's for sure. If it doesn't get fixed it's not going to be an issue to us either. Honestly I don't know why my group has never made use of these exploits. SHHHHHHHHHHHHh...they may be listening!!!
As far as some of the other "Exploitable" mechanics. Yeah they are there. Sure they can be fixed. As posted in various other threads however players will always find some kind of mechanic to exploit. When will the mechanic fixes end? Will it just go on and on for as long as the game is being published? I'm sure it will. Ultimately however, and perhaps some will agree with me (maybe even the Paizo designers), it's up to the GM to rangle in players who would exploit these mechanics and make sure that the game continues to entertain his or her players. Just because the exploit is there doesn't necessarily mean that EVERYBODY is going to use it. And if someone does figure it out I don't think that it means we need a whole new rewrite of the rules. YES it is going to fall on the GM to take care of the problem. That's just the way it is going to have to be.
Furthermore I think that we need to not just assume that Jason or anyone else at Paizo is offended by people saying they just house rule something. I'm sure that the Pathfinder crew would welcome the sharing of some of those house rules. I mean isn't that what the play test is about anyways? Sharing opinions and ideas in a constructive way in order to help Pathfinder be the best that it can be? I think that the train wreck that were the other various P-R threads, and not entirely due to wording choices by P-R but by I'm sure myself and many others, are MORE offensive to the folks at Paizo.
Finally to P-R. SO I guess you could say that I agree and disagree with your post. I don't see any problem with using these examples as far as arguing against fixes etc. as long as they are backed up with evidence as to why. I will also say that this is the kind of tone and discussion that Paizo, Pathfinder, and this community needs.
EDIT: I always hate typing these long a$$ posts. By the time you finish someone else has already said what you've been typing for so long and I always feel like a doofus.
Dear lord...Juvenile means acting as a child...antisocial is acting in an unfriendly, antagonistic way toward others...Sodomy is the act of anal sex.
HOW THE HELL do you even begin to equate Underling's choice in vocabulary to your own?!?!
You have a vested interest in Pathfinder...just not the community.
Patrick Curtin wrote:
In other words...what I said...just with a bit more tact. I agree with you.
As painful as it is reading PR's ideas/posts etc...I mean like red hot poker up the tukus painful...It's strangely entertaining watching him get tweaked like this. Probably because crazy rants won't carry much weight with the designers in the end (perhaps why you feel they didn't listen to your ideas before during the Alpha). Which means that unfortunately I think PF is just setting himself up for even more disappointment.
It's unfortunate because PR, you probably do present some great ideas. The presentation however is like serving up a great steak on a plate of dog sh*t. I just can't get past the dog sh*t. ie. the majority of people being dumb comment or that people that are happy with the current state of Pathfinder are ruining the game for YOU(and others comments that I won't go into). As soon as comments like that come into play, I just can't get on board with you. Not that you care I'm sure. That's your choice. I honestly wish that I could.
I couldn't agree more. I mean the OP and others who agree are missing the point of what Pathfinder is supposed to be. They have said since day one it's NOT intended to be an entire new system! It's unfortunate that they just don't get it.
Exactly...seems pretty clarified to me.
Picked up the PFCS book at Lone Star in Arlington today. The guy that works there that I've been pestering acted all surprised that they had it. It was their only copy left (they apparently had like 3 copies I think he said originally). I think I may go see if the other one has a copy next week.
Anyways hopefully now that this has showed up there, and sold out already, they'll start stocking more product.
I too have to say NO to this idea. You get rid of it and you end up with people playing themselves and not their character. Taking away alignment will be an even SHORTER short cut to combat. PC's won't stop to think they'll just think "Hey I can just attack this guy. There are no consequences for my character any longer. KILL EM ALL!"
Besides...it's too 4.0ish to get rid of alignment. That's not the point of Pathfinder. It's not a whole new system folks. We really need to stop with the drastic change ideas. You want to do away with alignment then feel free to house rule that one.
Besides...30 something years of alignment can't be wrong. If the idea of alignment was so bad they would have changed it years ago.
Alright...I'm signed up. What Sundays do you guys play?
Argh! and I'm in Arlington too!! I would be all over this BUT I've already got a group going on the 1st and 3rd Sundays. The only days I'm able to play due to scheduling and really all I can handle.
Sucks getting older. Real life keeps getting in the way of having fun.
I hope you post some updates on the game though. Would like to see how that AP goes. I'm contemplating running my group through it.
BY the way...if anyone out there is interested in an every other Sunday schedule and is interested...just let me know! Sorry to hijack your thread there.
They may have mislead you. The owner doesn't have any daughters, that I know of. As far as I know he only has 1 son. I think one of the older store managers had some older daughters though. I never met them so I don't know if they were hot or not.
Oh I could tell some stories about the owner...but this is not the place for that. Maybe another day.
OH yeah they'll ship anything around the chain for ya. Used to work for em back in the day. Been shopping with them since `84 or `85. They are MOSTLY pretty knowledgeable. I haven't been out to the Dallas area stores in a while. The Flagship store in Arlington is staffed with Knuckleheads. The OTHER Arlington store is great. I was sick the weekend of FreeRPG. I went in the next weekend to the small South Arlington store and asked the guy if they had any copies of RotKK left. He dropped what he was doing and spent 10 minutes digging in the back to find a copy for me. I think they are starting to come around to Pathfinder. There was a guy looking at the 4e gift set. I started talking to him about Pathfinder and he put the gift set down. He seemed pretty interested. I have no idea if he downloaded the Beta or not but he was gonna give it a look see before he bought the 4e set.
Sorry to go a little off topic here but...this is encouraging. I'm starting my group on a combo of HLH and CoTKK in a couple of weeks using the Beta. I hope it goes as well. I think it will. One of the guys I've been trying to get to read through the Alpha/Beta for some time now has FINALLY read it. He apologized for doubting me. He claims it knocked his socks off. Hope he'll still feel the same once we start playing.
Where in DFW are you at?! I'm in Arlington myself.
Both Arlington Lone Stars as well as the Hurst location have a FEW books. They all recently got the PFC Darkmoon Vail books. I haven't been in this week so I don't know if they got anything else new. I pester them on a REGULAR basis about Pathfinder and when they are going to get the CS etc. in.
GenX in HEB has a TON of AP books. The guy there is kinda meh about just about anything I ask him about. Not my favorite store at all.