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After viewing the On the Set, 4e Red Dragon video from wotc, I am sickened at the new low they've reached in this crappy video that portreys valid criticisms involving greed, video games, and over-simplification in 4e as coming from a Troll typing feedback/criticisms on a computer. The red dragon then actually s##$s on a farmer, and s%##s on the Troll giving feedback. This is hands down the absolute worst treatment of (formerly) loyal customers by any company I have ever seen. They've managed to turn our game into a lollypop. Did anyone get the message that gamers with contrary opinions are worth s$@%ting on?
How absolutely disgraceful.
I don't know, the troll part made me lol.
Link?
Link?
I don't know, I thought the sycophantic kobolds (read: mindless 4e fanboys) were cute. This being the first of those animations that have done anything but leave me cold.
Meh. WOTC burnt their bridge to me a long time ago. Time to move on.
It was pretty thoroughly vetted here.
Of course, Pax, you can read my comments there (and a few others), or you can just discover how wrong and silly you are in your clinging to the past. Some day you will realize, You love Big Wizard.
EDIT: I shouldn't have left out "overly sensitive", which was the implication of many.
I with you it was bad PR and showed that that wanted fanatic worshiper and they would call people troll and s#*% on them if they had any negative thought....The PR guy should be fired.
Well, I'm a bit biased TOWARD WotC *ducks*, but I think that there are way too many people reading way too much into that video. I think they're targeting legitimate message board trolls, not everyone who was against 4e. Beyond that, yes, it's a poop joke. Not every joke can be a winner.
There is no reason to toss things at Wizards-fans, I just think that the cartoon requires little in the way of reading, with its message pretty plainly on the surface. If I were in the sprocket business, and I changed to a new improved sprocket that required you, my former customer, to switch over from all the previous sprocket-implements that I had previously sold you because I would no longer service my old product, and I told you that you I understood your unhappiness with this but was going full ahead in spite of your criticisms, I should release you into the world with my best wishes and thanks for your past business. Not make fun of you and your (justifiable) criticisms by making cartoons in which you are sh@t upon.
tsk
If I could care less, I would.
Further insulting a fair sized proportion their now already throughly alienated fanbase appears to be the way to go. Looks like the nasty stereotypes coughed up the other week by the McCain campaign actually do have a place at Wizards.
It's Pathfinder all the way- by this stage I wouldn't own 4th ed if they threw a copy through my window tied to a rock.
The reaction is actually quite funnier then the movie. I am only reminded of one thing at this point... *grumble* stupid wotc *grumble* stupid 4e *grumble* wheres the gnome *grumble*
If they were making fun of something it would be this type of outburst. You don't see me getting all ready to poop on Wizards because they implied that I was a mindless fanboy. Wizards even made fun of themselves. Stop taking it so personally and get off the soapbox.
I am getting tired of hearing "4e Sucks. There will never have my business. Pathfinder all the way!" which I read in just about every thread in the FOURTH EDITION section of these boards, it gets tiring.
I don't go to the Pathfinder Beta section and go on about how badly 3.5e sucks and how I am not playing Pathfinder because it really isn't that different from 3.5e atleast not different enough to make me want to go back to the monster that was 3.5e which I quit after investing thousands of dollars into the game.
The only reason people are saying things like that in this section is basically to put a negative spin for people that come browsing along and read said comments. There isn't really an edition war so the sniping can stop anytime now.
There is no reason to toss things at Wizards-fans, I just think that the cartoon requires little in the way of reading, with its message pretty plainly on the surface. If I were in the sprocket business, and I changed to a new improved sprocket that required you, my former customer, to switch over from all the previous sprocket-implements that I had previously sold you because I would no longer service my old product, and I told you that you I understood your unhappiness with this but was going full ahead in spite of your criticisms, I should release you into the world with my best wishes and thanks for your past business. Not make fun of you and your (justifiable) criticisms by making cartoons in which you are sh@t upon.
If you feel that you are a troll whining incessantly about how the game now requires minis, doesn't let you play gnomes, or has been oversimplified, you have every right to be offended.
If you are not any of these things, the video was not talking about you, so please stop looking for new and exciting ways to be outraged.
After viewing the On the Set, 4e Red Dragon video from wotc, I am sickened at the new low they've reached in this crappy video that portreys valid criticisms involving greed, video games, and over-simplification in 4e as coming from a Troll typing feedback/criticisms on a computer.
If you think that:
a) Wizards doesn't deserve to try and make money
b) The video game criticism is valid
c) 4th Edition is over-simplified
You really need to take a step back and re-examine your position. None of these things are true, and Wizards was only making fun of the people who decide to whine about those things incessantly online instead of being mature about it and enjoying whichever game they'd like.
The red dragon then actually s~%%s on a farmer, and s~%%s on the Troll giving feedback.
Which was a pretty gratifying moment, actually.
This is hands down the absolute worst treatment of (formerly) loyal customers by any company I have ever seen.
Really, the ones that this video makes fun of aren't really deserving of shining treatment. They've basically decided to spend their free time pointlessly trolling a message board owned by a company who wished them no ill will. We make fun of those trolls all the time. I don't see why Wizards has to censor themselves either. You want a company free of the trappings of corporate apathy? Then you get to deal with them having a sense of humor, even if you choose to be pointlessly offended by that sense of humor.
They've managed to turn our game into a lollypop.
Aw, what a fantastic, well-substantiated criticism! I have no idea why Wizards would have a pretty low opinion of anti-4e online trashtalk with people like you leading the pack.
Did anyone get the message that gamers with contrary opinions are worth s~%%ting on?
No. Just the ones who act like ten year-old trolls.
How absolutely disgraceful.
The most disgraceful thing I've witnessed here is the shameful reaction the anti-4th Edition crowd is having to the video, acting like every one of them is the butt of a joke targeting immature trolls.
I know outrage is fun, but when it's not appropriate it's really kind of embarrassing.
By the way, the comically-outraged response this has garnered on the Paizo 4th Edition board is the butt of a number of jokes on multiple large RPG-oriented forums. People are linking here just to laugh at it.
I with you it was bad PR and showed that that wanted fanatic worshiper and they would call people troll and s~!~ on them if they had any negative thought....The PR guy should be fired.
Except that everyone who isn't already trying to trash WotC at every opportunity took absolutely no offense. Not one of the people "targeted" by the video as being sycophantic boot-lickers has complained about that particular treatment, certainly not any kinder than being called a troll.
And no one's even paying attention to the fact that WotC purposefully made their tongue-in-cheek representation in the video (the dragon) into a money-hoarding apathetic giant.
Look around you - the ones being offended are the ones who want to be offended by Wizards.
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opportunity took absolutely no offense. Not one of the people "targeted" by the video as being sycophantic boot-lickers has complained about that particular treatment, certainly not any kinder than being called a troll.
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That just shows how much or how little they value you. That seems a fairly clear signal.
However, as a person I expect a modicum of respect, and in contrast, I value even more the Paizo people, and the fact that they often take times to answer people on these boards.
And I certainly don't think this is mature in any stretch of the imagination, just maNure, maybe, but the joke is too easy.
That just shows how much or how little they value you. That seems a fairly clear signal.
Don't even start that.
The entire video was tongue-in-cheek. If you can't wrap your head around even that there's no helping you. It's only a clear signal if you completely lack the ability to tell when someone is just playing with you and poking fun.
I mean, really, are you completely unable to tell that? Honestly? Because that's really troubling.
However, as a person I expect a modicum of respect, and in contrast, I value even more the Paizo people, and the fact that they often take times to answer people on these boards.
A lot of people either actually working for Wizards or in official volunteer positions at Wizards answer questions on the boards. A number of mine have been answered, and I've exchanged e-mails with a couple of the D&D guys in addition to speaking one-on-one with them in person at conventions. Wizards, believe it or not, cares about its fans, and I think they do a pretty excellent job of treating us well and actively trying to prevent the D&D hobby from stagnating as it has a number of times in the past.
You're right, Paizo cares a lot about its customers and posts quite a bit on their forums. But the difference in forum population between Paizo and WotC is huge and the difference in number of designers and other such in-the-know employees is not nearly so large.
And I certainly don't think this is mature in any stretch of the imagination, just maNure, maybe, but the joke is too easy.
It's a comedy video. Mature really wasn't number one on their priority list. I thought it was pretty funny in the sense that you could sort of turn off your brain and laugh at kobolds and dragon poop.
Listen up guys, it's a cartoon!
They do not describe their customers as trolls - they make fun of trolls. You know, the internet kind! Of course in the cartoons universe this is a real troll (with computer skills no less).
They make fun of themselves! The big hoardy dragon, that just want's more treasure.
They make fun of the fanboys...
But it is all good-natured fun in my opinion. Especially since they dish it out to themselves as well.
In any case, I think you put way too much in it. I doubt that Wizards held a meeting, deciding it was time to show everyone what they thought about those that failed to embrace 4E. More likely a small team made this, the script I mean, and thought it was funny.
It not actually that funny, but that is all.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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It's a non-spectacular flash cartoon with toilet humor as its major focus. Seriously, a swipe at their detractors is pretty much the last thing i would get worked about here.
I mean, seriously... It was not even shocking, or offensive. Just childish, and devoid of any "marketing content." I certainly feel no more inclined to buy their stuff after viewing this than before.
Meh. Whatever.
While I usually balk at Mister Betts' rather coarse way of responding to other people, I have to largely agree with him here.
If you're getting offended by this, then it seems like you're just looking to get offended.
No offense. ;)
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You're right, Paizo cares a lot about its customers and posts quite a bit on their forums. But the difference in forum population between Paizo and WotC is huge and the difference in number of designers and other such in-the-know employees is not nearly so large.
True true...but one thing you miss Mr. Betts is the extension of Paizo's "Care and Respect" towards 4e WotC fans such as yourself. The same cannot be said for WotC. Do they have a "Pathfinder" section on THEIR boards to allow their prior customers to discuss their competitors products? No they don't. I choose to no longer post on their boards but I do look in once or twice a month. I do notice that ANY mention of Paizo/Pathfinder seems to get a $#!T storm dumped on them by both 4e fans and WotC Employees/Volunteers alike. Yes that happens here in the 4e forums at times by Paizo fans yet when was the last time you saw any Paizo employees joining in the insults? DO you see Paizo making silly little Tongue and Cheek Videos making fun of ANYBODY...Period? NO, they have more class than that. Thankfully WotC did do ONE good thing lately and got rid of the worst offender Mr. Gamer-Zero. I personally could care less about the video. I found it neither funny nor insulting. I haven't quite made up my mind about your posts however. Perhaps we need a Troll insulting anti-WotC gamers...to Poop on. (sorry Triumph...I couldn't resist)
OH and how about a link to some of those RPG sites that are linking to the Paizo boards and apparently laughing at these threads...
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If you think that:
a) Wizards doesn't deserve to try and make money
b) The video game criticism is valid
c) 4th Edition is over-simplified
a) Wizards deserves to try and make money. Everybody deserves to try and make money
b & c) I've played the game, moneyed with the mechanics, reviewed it thoroughly as both a long time gamer & book seller, and had multiple conversations with WoW players about the changes.
The video game criticism IS valid. The monster manual reads like a list of stats you'd see in a video game guide: next to no flavor, with just a wall of numbers.
As for oversimplification, I seem to remember my wizards having spells.
I've seen a few of these videos; none of them were funny (I'm not a big fan of potty humor). They all just seemed to be taking cheap potshots at older editions and playing to the lowest common denominator.
Okay, treating the halfling orphanage like a salad bar was pretty entertaining, but I'll leave it at that
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I think the reason that some are offended is because the video makes a correlation to 'If you complained or do not like X, you are a troll and must be scatted upon', and not so much that the trolls are crapped on. I had some issues with 4E that correspond to what the troll in the video had issue with, which seems to imply that me complaining about those aspects makes me a troll. Now that I am a troll in WOTC's eyes I should now be crapped upon. That is where I think the underlying offense is taken. I personally have already written off WOTC so this particular video has no real effect on me, and as such I feel no offense, but I thought I would offer up what I think is part of why some seem to be offended.
I also disagree with telling people that because they are offended that they are not entitled to feel that way for X reason. People feel things for various reasons and just because someone doesn't understand, or even care to try to understand, doesn't mean they should be dismissing those feelings.
"My feeling are more important than yours and if you disagree you are a big doo-doo head" is too pre-teen of an argument. I expect better of these boards.
My opinion.
If you think that:a) Wizards doesn't deserve to try and make money
b) The video game criticism is valid
c) 4th Edition is over-simplifiedYou really need to take a step back and re-examine your position. None of these things are true...
Umm, there are plenty of elements that are clearly inspired by video games. I personally will agree with you that they don't merit being called "criticisms". But in more than a few cases they are there. But, if someone else has an issue with an element and that element is present, then to simply proclaim it "not true" on your own assessment is asinine.
And, for what *I* want out of an RPG, 4th Edition is vastly over-simplified. It doesn't need to be tru to you to be completely true to me. So, again, if you claim that it can not be true to anyone else because it is not true to you, then you are the one that desperately needs to step back and re-examine your position because it is clearly myopic and close-minded.
As to the cartoon itself, I agree that it is a tempest in a teapot. After all, they are preaching to their own choir. It does strike me as quite telling that they felt motivated to spend their resources on the negative feedback and throw such a juvenile and completely lacking in substance rebuttal. The issue must be striking a nerve.
It is a shame that there is an ongoing tendency to try to personalize this, instead of seeing it as an instance of low behavior. I am sure that the majority of people who make arguments that overly sensitive babies are looking to be offended and similar arguments know better when it comes to how they treat people in their own professional and personal lives, but I have to assume that this better sense is just muted because they see themselves as engaged in an important conflict that sets such considerations aside...
And the fact that they are "just cartoons" is irrelevant. The medium or mode of mistreatment is irrelevant. If the message is insulting, its insulting.
I am going to make a judgment call here and say that if this is the pattern that just continues to repeat, there is no benefit to further attempts at engagement.
EDIT: And if I may attempt an observation for my fellow 3e/Pf enthusiasts, there is no point in criticizing 4e to its fans. If they have played 4e and enjoyed it, then they will not listen to your criticisms (couched in terms of this edition is superior to that) and rightly so--they know that they enjoy 4e. The game's weaknesses are then theirs to address in their own way, in their own time. While I can understand attempting argument and persuasion regarding editions if your own roleplaying group is breaking up over editions, what purpose does it serve on message boards? If 4e fans (for instance, the argument applies both ways) think 3e/Pf fans are just reactionary idiots who have no reasons to prefer their game, then let them. Their wrongness in no way diminishes you, and "defending" yourself doesn't gain anyone anything. Complain to other like-minded intelligent people. Unless they are breaking into your home and stealing your minis, or dropping draconic poop on your trollish head, then let them go with God.
I think if Paizo decided to make a cartoon in which 4e players are portrayed as video game obsessed juveniles who care only about killing monsters, Paizo would probably lose my business. I wouldn't take it seriously, but I would lose respect for Paizo.
But I know Paizo wouldn't do that. I know Paizo respects its customers, regardless of which edition they play. I wish WotC would step up to the plate and show similiar maturity.
I get why the cartoon was made. If I created a game I thought was outstanding and I had to listen to a constant hateful, often irrational stream of why people think my game is the end of the world, I'd be making defensive, mean jokes too. But I wouldn't release it on the general public as a marketing tool. To me, this is just another example of their inane marketing strategy.
I would like to make a statement. For those who were offended by my cartoon or actions in said cartoon, I would like to say that I understand. Your concerns are legitimate, understandable, and appropriate...FOR ME TO POOP ON!!!
I would also like to announce that 'It's on like Donkey Kong!'
I would like to make a statement. For those who were offended by my cartoon or actions in said cartoon, I would like to say that I understand. Your concerns are legitimate, understandable, and appropriate...FOR ME TO POOP ON!!!
I would also like to announce that 'It's on like Donkey Kong!'
Ok, now that's funny :)
Meh. Whatever.
Double meh. Why are we still beating this dead horse? You don't like WotC just don't BUY their stuff! Sheesh the only thing a corporation really listens to is its bottom line. If you are insulted send an angry email to their customer service and don't buy their junk anymore! Simple, direct and less cluttery to the messageboards.
So I will add: While I do not advocate pooping on the heads of trolls, I do discourage feeding them.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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[threadjack]Has anyone noticed that while most of the messageboard edits/nerfs the title of this thread, the little box on the main board that list recent activity does not? Just a random observation. [/threadjack]I was just going to post the same comment.
You do realize that we are spending far too much time on Paizo.com, right?
It's because 4E sucks and they know it. The writing is on the wall.
Bandit of LV
It's because 4E sucks and they know it. The writing is on the wall.
Keep drinking the Kool-aid buddy.
The only handwriting I saw on the wall at Gencon in the WoTC Ballroom said "record turnout." And all those people we turned away at every slot? The ones that would have filled up the Pathfinder Organized play room all by themselves? They must have agreed that 4E sucks.
Would you guys *please* stop dumping this s&@# in the 4E forum? You're making me dislike Pathfinder by association. If I went over to the Pathfinder boards and posted the message "Pathfinder sucks and Paizo knows it. The writing is on the wall," do you think that would be constructive?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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It's because 4E sucks and they know it. The writing is on the wall.
Keep drinking the Kool-aid buddy.
The only handwriting I saw on the wall at Gencon in the WoTC Ballroom said "record turnout." And all those people we turned away at every slot? The ones that would have filled up the Pathfinder Organized play room all by themselves? They must have agreed that 4E sucks.
Would you guys *please* stop dumping this s@&# in the 4E forum? You're making me dislike Pathfinder by association. If I went over to the Pathfinder boards and posted the message "Pathfinder sucks and Paizo knows it. The writing is on the wall," do you think that would be constructive?
Just remember, bugleyman, for every one paizonian who says something like this, there are a hundred that don't say it; also, Erik Mona, James Jacobs, Mike McArtor, etc. are amongst those Paizonians who have repeatedly condemned such trash-talking.
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It's because 4E sucks and they know it. The writing is on the wall.
Keep drinking the Kool-aid buddy.
The only handwriting I saw on the wall at Gencon in the WoTC Ballroom said "record turnout." And all those people we turned away at every slot? The ones that would have filled up the Pathfinder Organized play room all by themselves? They must have agreed that 4E sucks.
Would you guys *please* stop dumping this s&#~ in the 4E forum? You're making me dislike Pathfinder by association. If I went over to the Pathfinder boards and posted the message "Pathfinder sucks and Paizo knows it. The writing is on the wall," do you think that would be constructive?
While I will refrain from the 4e sucks thing...I really don't care if it's good or not...I will again point out that at least Paizo gives you the option of discussing 4e on their boards. When was the last time you saw an official "Pathfinder" forum on the WotC boards?
Feel free to discuss 4e all you want and I truly am sorry that some choose to dump on it. Be the better person and ignore them. That means that taking shots at Pathfinder fans isn't making things any better and probably partly why people keep attacking the 4e fans here. For example the people turned away from the WotC Ballroom would fill the Pathfinder room all by themselves. NOt helping your argument. Granted if it's really that big an issue...You do have other 4e discussion destinations to choose from.
sigh