Aricks's page

Given the structure of the AoN website, I honestly think the next logical step is to implement a git style interface for the rules. That way you can not only easily see the latest changes for the rules but you can see annotations on the changes and the history of the changes.

I think the days of the fixed published errata document/pdf aren't as useful as it was with the advancements in document versioning. Heck it gets better with a tracked repo. Imagine you go on the paizo website, put in your version of a rulebook, and it dynamically creates a pdf of the rules changes from the book you have using the current repo status.

Maybe they can have a call for volunteers to contribute to an open source project. Not the rules themselves but the structure of what holds them, assuming there isn't something out there that would so this already.

Ring of Minor Arcana (https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=478) and the Robe of the Archmagi (https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=464) both mention being an "arcane spellcaster" as part of various requirements of the items, but after doing some digging it's unclear to me as to what that actually means. The two cases I thought of off the bat are:

1. Does it mean having the "Arcane Spellcasting" ability? Good for wizards and magus but tough luck for rune witches.

2. Does it just mean you can cast an arcane spell? Otherworldly Magic for elves and being an Arcane Wellspring gnome give arcane cantrips but use charisma instead of intelligence so less arcane-y than a wizard or magus, but still technically casting arcane spells.

I know the robe states "characters who can cast arcane spells" and seems to equate not having that ability as not being an "arcane spellcaster" but it's less clear for the ring.

Given the robe definition I'm leaning towards #2 but I'd like to hear others weigh in on it.

I agree with the above posters, a thrown weapon is not the same thing as a weapon with reload 0, and there are ways of making a throwing weapon hunter that follows the rules like using precision, hunter's aim, gravity weapon, etc.

The math is kinda fun on this actually. A 4th level Ranger with the Far Shot feat can throw a javelin at their Hunted Prey target 120 feet away with as much accuracy as if it were 10 feet away, which is neat, or as far away as 360 feet with I think a -10 to hit. Since this could conceivably be done 3 times in a round of 6 seconds as 3 attacks, that means a returning javelin is traveling, on average, 360 feet per second, or ~245 miles per hour, or ~110 meters per second. Assuming no teleporting, option A is that it's going out a slowish 100 ft/sec and coming back at a blistering 540 ft/sec. This invokes all kinds of hilarious images as the Ranger holds out their hand to catch their javelin coming back to them at near mach 1. Option B is that it goes out as fast as it comes back, 360 ft/sec or some variation, meaning that Ranger has a heck of a throwing arm and should sign up with the Golarian equivalent of the Yankees right away.

For extra hilarity, using hunted shot with a javelin, meaning essentially 4 throws in 6 sec, ups that to 480 ft/sec, so like 327 mph. They're going to need earplugs for when it breaks the sound barrier coming back to their hand.

Interestingly enough the world record for javelin throws is 343 feet, so the above max distance (360 feet) is not at all out of the question. However the velocities involved with that returning javelin means it is definitely magic and not following the rules of physics.

Well, we'll see if it's still a class where you have to punch yourself in the face to power up. After what happened to the oracles curse, I shudder to imaging what horrifying thing burn could turn into... :P

As someone who plays a bomber alchemist who went from targeting touch AC in PF1 to punching myself in the face via Quicksilver Elixir, I can say it has not been a fun experience.

Haven't played a pf2 wizard, but I imagine its frustrating to burn a very limited number of spell slots for two actions for no effect when you don't really have any alternatives beyond a cantrip or a crossbow. Especially if you really tried hard to prep an appropriate mix of spells that day. I can relate a bit to that with alchemical items.

I agree that you can use Double Brew to make two perpetual infusion items for one action and no reagent cost.

The argument I've seen against this interpretation is in how Double Brew is worded:
"When using the Quick Alchemy action, instead of spending one batch of infused reagents to create a single item, you can spend up to two batches of infused reagents to make up to two alchemical items as described in that action"

Specifically, the "instead of spending one batch....you can spend up to two batches" which see how if you squint and turn your head a bit that it means you can only do it while making things that use infused reagents. I think the "spend up to two" part is key though, implying that you can spend 0, 1, or 2 reagents to create 2 items that would cost you 0 or 1 reagents each.

Having mutagens last longer at higher levels is a "benefit" that alchemists don't really need, given the amounts of infused reagents that are available at higher levels.

So, maybe make all mutagens last 10 minutes or an hour, depending on the type, regardless of the level.
Maybe each one comes as two vials: the mutagen itself and a specific counter-agent that can be consumed to counter that specific mutagen.
Maybe just make it just an ability alchemists have to spend an action to end the effects of a mutagen created with their infused reagents if they are adjacent to the target. A targetable Revivifying Mutagen but without the healing. If we could get rid of some of the other math fixer feats I wouldn't even mind if this ability was a feat itself instead of core.

I like the sickened 1 suggestion from above for early ending a mutagen's effects. One of the main reason I really don't like them is the benefits don't seem to match the penalties, especially when the duration gets into the hour range.

Spending infused reagents to craft mutagen cancellation items seems cruel, please don't do that.

While we're at it, can we make it so quicksilver mutagens either don't damage you or make it just a temp reduction in HP that you don't have to heal from later? A +1 bonus that taxes your parties already limited healing resources, a -2 Fort penalty, and lasts 1-10 minutes until level 11 is why most people don't bother with the bloody things.

So here's an idea:
1. Get rid of Quick Bomber. All alchemists get a "pull and use an alchemical item as a single action" baked in. That way alchemists actually can use alchemical items better than other classes, which helps to get rid of the "hand my items off to the other classes and become a crossbowman" issue.

2. Replace Quick Bomber with "Shaped Charge". If you throw a bomb, it only affects a single target instead of an area of effect (handy for a mutie or chirg as a back up), if you are a bomber focus, you gain a bonus to accuracy (+1? +2?) when throwing a bomb that only affects a single target. Maybe even make it +intmod but you no longer do splash on a miss. Can't do the math because working but I think it could be balanced.

It would help with accuracy, not buff their damage to crazy amounts, and it would really help the alchemist in the buffer/debuffer role.

Now all we need is for mutagens to come with a complementary "detox" vial that would dismiss the mutagen so that people could use the buffs without hurting their ability in combat that so often comes after the talky bits and we'd be all set.

Something about an alchemist offering their class feature to someone and them just going "... no thanks." cracks me up.

Yeah, except multiply that by 5 levels of PFS sessions and only having a mutagen used once and an elixir once and it might give some insight as to why some alchemist players are bitter.

That was with spending time at the start of every session talking to each player trying to find out what mutagens and elixirs would be useful for them, and trying to balance that versus how many bombs to make. Taking out a swarm in one hit, once, was pretty cool, and doing a fair amount of energy damage to the one enemy that had physical resistance, once, was fun, but consider that in the context of the lack of mutagen and elixir use above, over so many sessions, and it goes from "funny" to "heartbreaking"

The alchemist only needs a change if you think they should do anything more than hand out their crafted items that other classes use better than they can and badly shoot their crossbow like a hireling.

I don't think they bring anything unique to the table.

In all the released errata they've become slightly more durable and slightly better item dispensers, so that seems to be the role that Paizo wants them to fill.

Not a debuffer (you have to actually be able to hit things to debuff them), not a buffer (most of your buffs disadvantage your party members and can't be cleared except by time), not a poisoner (again you have to actually be able to hit things), not a damage dealer (better to make bombs/poisons and hand them to the martials), maybe a healer with lousy action economy that slightly improves if you get a familiar.

I haven't touched my alchemist in a year and from what changes I've seen and expect to see, I don't ever plan to again, and that's really disappointing.

I have played nearly every caster or seen nearly every caster in place. The biggest difference between a fun caster and a lame caster is useful focus spells and cantrips. It's like a major difference.

I don't mean spell list cantrips every class gets. I mean stuff like a druid's tempest surge or a cleric's healing/harm font or a witch's hex cantrips or curse of death. The bard's composition cantrips and effects.

These are the abilities give casters the means to endure, while waiting for good opportunistic moments to unleash higher level spells.

Yet the wizard gets almost no focus spells on par with other classes. The sorcerer is a very mixed bag. Fix this issue and the wizard and sorcerer complaining will go away.

And in the future base design for casters should be to give them class cantrips unique to the class and powerful offensive abilities they can use at least once every fight.

I don't want to derail the thread, because I agree with this opinion, but I'd also like to chime in from an alchemist perspective, since I feel we fall under the "casters" definition above if you squint and turn your head to the side a bit.

Players want their characters to feel powerful, or useful, or badass, etc. Standing in place and casting electric arc every round, because this is the first encounter of the day and you don't want to waste your limited spells on mooks, doesn't feel powerful or useful or badass, it feels lame. Replace electric arc with crossbow and spells with bombs and you've got a bomber alchemist perspective.

Focus spells are great because they let you do something better than your fallback attack once or twice a fight. Wizards, sorcerers, and alchemists would benefit from something like this, or in the alchemist case something like this that shows up before level 7.

Thanks James for the info. While I would personally prefer to get the 2nd round errata before the 2nd round printing, it's really great to get an update and expected timeline on this. You folks are busy with everything it takes to keep a gaming company going for us to enjoy and anything you all can do to keep is in the loop is appreciated.

Regarding the thread, here's my thought. People are going to have opinions that differ from yours, and that's just the way the world is. I've discovered that telling people "no your feeling are wrong" isn't really something that is going to change anything, because feelings are feelings.

Maybe try "I see your viewpoint is ______, personally mine is ______ and here's why". Will you change their mind? Maybe, maybe not, but talking about your own thoughts, experiences, and feelings instead of telling other people how they should think or feel goes a long way to keeping a thread a pleasant place to hang out.

Aricks wrote:

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Honest question---do we have any idea what portion of PF2's customer base will even notice released errata/faqs/updates? I'd think a very large fraction just buy the darn books (maybe a subscription) w/o ever paying any attention to the forums, the blog, or other channels for announcements.

For starters, every PFS player? What percentage is that?

Dunno. If someone told me it was a majority, I expect I'd believe them. If someone told me it's 10%, I'd believe that. I don't know how many people are in PFS or how big the customer base is.

I agree. There are sources but they're not public.

You do have to register to play, so I imagine you'd look at number of registered players that played more than one event in the last year. Normally I'd say 6 months but the dread plague has made data analysis all sorts of wacky for lots of things.

That's a solid data point. Compare with number of rulebooks sold and maybe look at website hits on the FAQ and the other online resources.

I know the people I play with love a physical book to have and paw through, but search engines and online rules are great for finding that random bit of knowledge you need quickly. Also handy for finding out what the current consensus on a vague rule is, which is why we really, really need a frequently updated FAQ.

A FUFAQ if you will.

As much fun as reading all the pages of the the great "how many hands for battle medicine" thread was, it would have been nice if early on there was an official "hey folks, good points all around, we'll look into this. For now battle medicine hand use should be at GM discretion until we do the design math on it. For PFS until stated otherwise you need N hands." PFS already does this sometimes but I think they have to be careful about overstepping the official decisions.

Bad example if this was already answered but you know what I mean.

Honest question---do we have any idea what portion of PF2's customer base will even notice released errata/faqs/updates? I'd think a very large fraction just buy the darn books (maybe a subscription) w/o ever paying any attention to the forums, the blog, or other channels for announcements.

For starters, every PFS player? What percentage is that?

Especially since they can't use house rules to fix issues with certain classes that shall not be mentioned in this thread.

SuperBidi wrote:

shroudb wrote:

No one said that an alchemist doesn't offer "anything". Just that everything he can offer, other supports offer it better/cheaper/easier.

On that, I don't agree fully. In a party of 6, once all the bases have been covered, the Alchemist brings something else. In my ideal party of 6, I'd have an Alchemist. But, clearly, one that is very well built and designed. If I have a beginner at my table, I will discourage him to play an Alchemist. Both for the bugs issue and for the number of hoops you have to jump through to get a workable build.

If they aren't worth having in a party of 4, where party of 4 is the default-assumed-situation, then they aren't worth having.

You're right that they "bring something else" in a complete party, but that is pretty true of a lot of classes.

Champion-Druid-Wizard-Rogue? Fighter brings things.

Larger parties don't always work better for alchemists either, since buffing a larger party with elixirs using QA is going to really eat into your reagents. Buff everyone with darkvision? You're done for the day, break out the crossbow.

Through the lens of PFS it seems worse though, because at least with a regular party you can plan ahead more easily as to what you may need for the day. Often the first part of a PFS game for me was going around the table trying to figure out who might need what buffs, and feeling really bad when no-one was interested in a mutagen which is a good portion of my class buffs.

Round 2 errata was supposed to be out after Jan 1 of 2020, per an old forum post. I read in the forum somewhere that the person who was working on the round 2 errata was part of the staff reorg, but that might be a "my cousin's brother's former roommate said _____" situation so who knows.

It seems like currently they're working to finish up and push out content with their reduced staff that was already partly down the pipeline before the dread plague hit. I have no idea how far in advance some of this is developed really, I've never worked for a pencil and paper game dev company, but I'd think they have a development pipeline like most other content companies.

It may be they're in rough shape and they're only surviving as a company by using all their staff to keep content moving down the pipeline, and can't divert the hours to working on round 2 errata.

Most of my work experience is in infosec devops. It's a recognized thing that at some point you need to go back and refactor code, or refine old workflows, or revamp infrastructure, otherwise as you add more stuff the underlying foundation starts to get unstable.

I genuinely hope that this is still a temporary thing while the economy recovers and they're not just ignoring it because it doesn't generate sales. I'd also hope that it is recognized that some people aren't going to buy new content if there are still bugs that need fixing in the base product.

Average as in "Martial Class DC and not Spellcaster DC"

At level 6 it's indeed the same for Caster and Alchemist.
Caster at level 7 becomes Expert, alchemist has to wait for level 9.
Caster at level 15 becomes Master, Alchemist has to wait for level 17
Caster at level 19 becomes legendary, Alchemist never gets that tier.

That's one of the core issues of Alchemist:
It caps out at Caster martial proficiency (expert)
and it caps out at masrtial ability proficiency (master)

You basically get the short end of the stick for either caster or martial.

I always hate the counterarguments I see to bomber alchemists being behind on proficiency for throwing bombs.

"you can use Quicksilver Mutagen" because those don't cost reagents and healing for using them?

"bombs always hit even if you miss" yes, because 1 or 2 or int mod damage makes up for missing with your bombs and failing to be a de-buffer when that's theoretically one of the things you're supposed to be good at.

It was a running joke when I was still playing that I would always try Deception on anything I threw a bomb at "hey centaur your horseshoe is untied" just so I had a slightly better chance to land my bomb so that I could actually de-buff the target for my party.

You'd think a bomber alchemist would be good at it, given it's supposed to be their thing.

Fact is, we've been bringing up issues with the CRB Alchemist for 2 years and seen:

1. a fix for something that was patently broken (Mutagenist)
2. a bulk fix for alchemist tools

New feats and research focus from source books are fun, new stuff like the crossbow from Plaguestone are nifty, but it doesn't fix the issues the class has had since the beginning, and I don't think I should have to buy a new book to fix something I already paid for.

So many of the alchemist feats apply to Quick Alchemy only, like Smoke Bomb, that unless you're high level with stupid amounts of reagents on hand it's just not going to be a viable option. I mean, cat's eye elixirs and smoke bomb seems like an awesome combo, except handing out elixirs to your teammates, for one fight, will cost you like 2 or 3 reagents? Plus one reagent per smoke bomb? I guess if you don't want to do anything besides shoot a crossbow the rest of the day that's fine. Good idea in theory, falls apart in practice.

I think Quick Alchemy was meant to be a sort of action economy limiter, so that pulling an elixir or QA'ing it has the same action cost, which I can completely understand. It adds value to the later feats and abilities that give you more items from QA. The reagent cost is just too taxing at lower levels.

Also, I agree with the points you made on these feats. Too many of them seem like "why isn't this a skill feat" or "this doesn't seem worth the cost of a class feat" or "I have to take a class feat for this?" *cough* Powerful Alchemy *cough*. Bonus points for, once again, only applying to QA'ed items.

I disagree. The fighter's knockdown does not work on anything incorporeal or something outside of the fighter's reach (such as a flying creature). Every class has times when they do not perform at their peak and cannot use ever tool they have available. That does not necessarily make them bad.

Still works on the majority of things, and against a flier they have to pull out a bow and do nothing but shoot, which is exactly what the alchemist mentioned above has to do except that's all they do during every combat once out of bombs. And, every bomb you throw, at a lousy hit rate, is fewer buffs or heals or useful elixirs.

That's why playing an alchemist sucks at lower levels, you can badly throw bombs, or hand out buffs that either expire so quick they're useless or have a nasty drawback (or both!), or you have healing with the worst possible action economy. And once you're out you're a peasant with a crossbow. Yeah, you buffed your party but it'd be nice to be more than a vending machine with a crossbow.

I think alchemist is great for what it is.. I think just like casters it isnt great at specialization just yet but it provides utility that most other people cant match. Being able to provide dark vision elixirs, insane healing, good aoe threats with bombs etc. Even providing poisons for your party.. they're imo a really solid class for a support.

Yes, in theory alchemists would be good at that, but in reality they can't actually do all those things due to their resource limits and buff quality at levels lower than 7.

I think casters (and alchemists sort of count here) can do great things if they happen to be able to plan ahead or get lucky with what they want to bring that day. But, that sleep spell is going to sit unused the whole day if you run into nothing but undead, or bravo's brew of no one gets feared. Compare with a fighter's knockdown feat which works on anything, is an effective debuff, and can be used all day.

I don't believe they will touch the alchemist. There are a lot of people concerned about their direct power, but don't seem to get how insanely versatile they are to make up for it. This post and its comments do a great job of highlighting the strengths of the alchemist, despite the kind of antagonistic title. They also have a "recommended build" section that can be ignored for these purposes, the rest of the post still makes good points.

The problem I have with that post is it reads awesome in theory but you can't actually do it in practice, because they ignore the limits of reagents you have. A combined double elixir of health heals for a bunch, sure, but at 3 reagents per you're not doing it more than once a day. Plus the actual penalties of a mutagen means you get your head critted in.

Throw a bomb or two, drink a mutagen or three, poison all your teams weapons, hand out elixirs of life to your team and keep 3 reagents handy for your super heal. That's awesome but you'll need a long rest after every fight.

Aricks wrote:

I personally have given up on my alchemist, PF2, and PFS in general.

What does PFS have to do with it?

Just giving context, I really like PFS in general and the folks I've played with are great, but it also means something like house rules can't really help.

I agree that paizo shouldn't have hateful things directed at their staff, and this should be a place where people can discuss things in a civil way. I think a moderated forum with clear rules can be great for this. I also think that people should be able to talk about their concerns and experiences and not have them written off as baseless complaining.

I'm of the opinion that regular information provided to your community is more helpful than not, and gave some examples of what I'd like to see. Personal attacks on what might happen in the future aren't useful to anybody.

FYI for anyone reading this, Gencon 2020 is officially not happening. There's an online version but the convention in Indy is cancelled.

Divine Lance all the things.

That said....

There's a difference between "I only care about myself" evil and "kittens are part of a nutritious breakfast" evil.

Sure, you can Divine Lance everyone as a test but it's not like it's going to tell you what they ate that morning. If an evil aligned person doesn't break any laws, is it really ok to just randomly slaughter them?

Oh, right....adventurers.

graystone wrote:

citricking wrote:

Bombs are a good bit better than cantrips though, and they even out perform fighters at level 3.

Are they? Same action to use as cantrips, similar damage to weapons [one to draw, one to throw], slight damage to friends and foes in an area... What's a "good bit better" and how is it "out perform fighters at level 3"?

Quick bomber to throw one at full attack bonus, one at -5. With burn it or a quick silver mutagen you do more expected damage than a d12 weapon using fighter making two attacks at level 3 (this is vs equal level moderate Ac with persistent damage counted as applying once, only damage to primary target counted)

And then the fighter gets a striking rune at level 4 and the alchemist falls way behind the curve again.

So, with a self-harming consumable or a specific race and ancestry feat, a class feat, a class focus, using limited per day items, an alchemist is on par with a fighter using no feats or special attacks, for one level of play.

Well, it all makes sense now.

Let's start with: you get to do every kind of elemental damage from level 1 and have enough skill points to identify weaknesses on everything. It only takes splash to trigger weakness so you auto-hit anything with elemental weakness.

You get as many bombs in PF2 with Int 14 than PF1 with Int 20 at Level 1. Keep that in mind when you read complaints about running out of bombs. :rolleyes:

You're right that if you want to optimize, multiclassing would be nice. I thought about taking a rogue dedication for the precision (bottled lightning + sneak) or a wizard dedication for the cantrips, but ultimately decided to go healer (picking up Battle Medicine and working on its feat chain). I've skewed more and more towards bottled lightning - making unflankable enemies flatfooted is awesome for my martial allies.

I play my PF2 alchemist like a PF1 witch - a relatively fragile spellcaster debuffing enemies.

---

Here are some stories since you may appreciate them. Spoiler alert: they're not going to involve flying through the air and beheading enemies.

1. Flanking ally goes down on the far side of large BBEG with reach. Anyone who wants to revive will have to run allll the way around or run through and take an AoO. Unless someone with Battle Medicine has a smokestick handy! Smoke Bomb, throw, run in. (PFS 1-06)

2. Mexican standoff with armed gang and an infiltrator. Who wants to crit a Society roll to expose the infiltrator and turn the gang against him? The alchemist does. Who wants to deafen him to stop him from going invisible? The alchemist does. (PFS 1-08)

If there were low level enemies that actually had elemental weaknesses that might matter. Sure, you'll murderize any swarm that looks at you funny, but then so will anyone who picked up an alchemist fire at the market for "just in case". Or, you know, a sorcerer or wizard.

Also, having more bombs doesn't matter when your chance to actually hit with them is much, much lower, thanks to the loss of touch AC. Same thing with debuffing with an electrical bomb: your chance to hit that enemy is less than a martial even before you apply the flatfooted debuff. Back when touch AC was a thing, that would be a great combo. Now, not so much.

Also, to crit that society roll out of combat you're now -2 to all attacks in combat, so good luck hitting them with a thunderstone, which they probably have a 50/50 chance to save against, and the deafened condition doesn't affect the ability for them to cast invisibility one bit. In fact, it might protect them from some spells.

Deafened: https://2e.aonprd.com/Conditions.aspx?ID=8
Things with auditory trait: https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=16

I truly appreciate the effort to house rule improvements, I think it would be helpful to identify the perceived underlying flaw that the house rule fixes so that the thread can more or less stay on course.

I think part of the problem is that the alchemist probably does better at high levels, when there are more opponents that have elemental weaknesses to exploit, more reagents available, more use for poison and disease protection, and mutagens where the bonus actually exceeds the penalty from using them. I think it was tested and played at those higher levels (comments from the developers have indicated as such), but not enough at the lower levels, and not enough to fully evaluate the changes post playtest. Specifically, the research fields seem thrown in but not really evaluated as to the usefulness of their individual abilities.

Starting as a level 1 alchemist is painful, for the reasons I've specified before and then some. You can take a dedication or a weapon familiarity ancestry to help, but if you don't use the core abilities of your class most of the time, why bother?

Experimenting with builds I had a level 2 play session where I literally didn't use a single bomb, elixir, or mutagen the entire session, despite having a good spread and available reagents for emergencies, because shooting a bow or using electric arc was always a better option and the mutagen penalties weren't worth it if combat cropped up.

1. Doesn't use primary stat for any of its attacks
2. Starved for reagents for most of its early levels, good luck bombers if you want to throw bombs and use quick alchemy or buff your party before level 5.
3. Many class feats don't actually give you any new abilities. Many of those that do require you use quick alchemy further reducing your reagent stock.
4. Churgion who made healing elixirs for their party? I hope you like shooting a crossbow, alot.
5. Good luck fighting in melee in light armor with a strength based melee attack and an ac penalty mutagenists.
6. You know that free alchemical crafting feat? Good luck actually making anything useful without spending a month making it.

I could go on but it's pointless. As far as I can tell Paizo thinks alchemists are fine as is.

Lower level shields are ok, upper level magic shields border on useless. These sorts of fixes would greatly help.

Case in point: you a level 10 fighter using your brand new forge warden shield is struck by a CR 9 young blue dragon's claw attack. It does average damage and you choose to block to use the shield ability.

You and the shield take 14 damage each. You brush it off but the shield is now broken. The dragon takes an average hit, 7 damage.

That shield costs 975 gp. A level 7 sturdy shield can take 3 of those hits and be fine.

Maybe magic shields could have the stats of the next lower tier hardy shield, that would be a quick fix.

I hope we'll see something soon. Much like a slew of other problems in the core book *cough* alchemists *cough*, there has been almost zero communication regarding the ETA of the fixes.

Not sure if you included this in your math, but goggles only help your perpetual bombs keep up with your higher tier bombs and don't stack with the integrated bomb bonuses.

One of the counter arguments I've heard that bomber alchemists are ok is that even if they miss they still do damage. One or two points using a limited resource is a nice compensation but not something to build a class off of.

With debuffs, you have to actually hit to land any effects, and all but the tanglefoot bomb don't last more than a round. Touch AC isn't a thing anymore so you're better off going after soft targets than the big bad, which also limits the effectiveness of your debuffs as a party contribution.

IMO, bomber alchemists shouldn't be balanced around always using quicksilver mutagen, it should be a bonus as it would be for any other class to make up for the drawbacks.

Holy thread necromancy batman! :)

That said, some of the problems I first reported on have gotten better as I've advanced in level. More reagents helps a ton, and more access to higher level items. You can get a leshy familiar in PFS outside of class abilities so that helped with reagents too.

That said, mutagens are mostly terrible still. I've only made non quicksilver mutagens once and I've just made 5th level, and I only use the qs mutagen if we have alot of extra healing. I have enough bombs that I can make it through 2 or 3 encounters in one day and not run dry, and still have some leftover reagents for an emergency quick alchemy or two. I'll probably never use my level 6 class feat (debilitating bombs) until level 7 which feels lame.

Alchemical goggles are going to be a 7th level buy, and I can get an alchemical crossbow soon too. Bag of holding and the errata changes helped with the bulk issues. Sub level 5 is pretty terrible but its slowly getting better. Here's to hoping the 7+ level mechanics work out like I hope they will.

Honestly something like a vitality or fortification elixir that gave temp HP that lasted for a while feels like it would solve this issue to me. Almost a bit of preemptive healing for the chirurgeon.

Juggernaut mutagen does that, but like the rest of the mutagens my teammates don't want them in combat or during dialog right before a fight due to the side effects, they'd rather just heal instead. I don't blame them either.

Why do alchemist lag behind? Most of the bombs get an item bonus to attack rolls. I have been giving him burn it on splash damage. My bad. He has an 18 intel. His splash is about to go up with the splash increase feat to 10 feet.

Clustered enemies are pretty common in our game. At least until they get hit a time or two by the alchemist, then they spread out.

It's a few little things really. Bombs get item bonus to attack so they're roughly equivalent to a potency rune weapon of equal level, but that's not the issue.

They only ever get expert proficiency. That's like a wizard or sorcerer only ever getting expert spell casting. It affects class DC checks, what few their are, but it also effects bomb attacks. Dex is also not your primary stat, so that's a tick behind. Also, there are no feats or abilities that actually help you land your attacks, except maybe Uncanny bombs.

So, if my expected party role is a buffer/debuffer, then why does my class DC not keep up against monster saves and my debuff ability works better if I hand it to the fighter next to me?

All I know is in play the alchemist is doing immense damage and putting massive pressure on enemies.

He'll toss out a bomb doing 5 fire splash damage. He'll occasionally crit. Two fire bombs in a round against a group of 3 targets which he usually throws out a fire bomb at each target to get persistent damage going.

He'll hit two of the guys for 2d8+5 fire plus 3 PF. Then 5 splash damage to the other guys.

First Bomb:

Target 1: 2d8+5 + 3 PF
Target 2: 5 splash
Target 3: 5 splash

Second Bomb:
Target 1: 5 splash +3 PF
Target 2: 2d8+5 splash +3 PF
Target 3: 5 splash

After two bombs:
Target 1: 19 fire damage +3 PF
Target 2: 19 fire damage +3 PF
Target 3: 10 fire damage

So for one round of actions and 2 bombs, you're looking at 54 fire damage. That seems very good to me. And that is without crit.

So, the goblin alchemist with the burn it ancestry feat in a fight where they're using fire bombs against clustered enemies? I'm not surprised they did well, that is the one of the few places where a bomber alchemist can shine. That and swarms.

I've only had one encounter where I both had high enough initiative and the monsters were clustered enough to hit more than 2 monsters. Either they were too spread out or some of the party got into melee before I could attack. Unfortunately selective splash isn't a thing anymore beyond the main target.

Also, your splash damage seems off. Either they're level 4-9 with calculated splash and 18-19 int so should do 4 splash, or they're level 10+ and didn't take expanded splash (int mod+bomb splash). 5 is an odd number to end up on. Burn it doesn't apply to splash damage, I'm betting that's the problem. Assuming level 4-9 with the feats it should be 2d8+1, plus 4 splash and 3 persistent.

That 2nd bomb attack is going to be tough to land consistently as well because alchemists lag behind the martial classes with their attacks as far as proficiency goes. The fact that Dex isn't their primary stat puts them behind another point as well. You're more likely to only do splash on the 2nd or third attacks. Still handy in the above example but no persistent or additional dice damage.

graystone wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

Perpetual Infusions lets you create lots of bottled lightning, which you can use to make enemies flat-footed. If you combine that with Wizard MC for Electric Arc, you have an all-day contribution while you can expend resources to deliver spike damage.

It doesn't say a lot for the class when you're saying 'once you hit 7th level and multiclass, you can actually contribute...'.

Yeah, if you twist it like that.

Level 1: you throw the occasional bomb, especially against monsters whose weakness you can target. But you can also make ranged attacks because you have good Dex. In our local group the elven alchemist used the ancestry feat to get bow proficiency, and it's not difficult for her to have enough bombs for the whole scenario now.

Level 2: you can pick up the wizard MC if you like. Multiclassing is not dirty in Pathfinder 2. I did wizard MC with my fighter because there were no exciting L2 feats for sword and board.

Level 3: oh hey you can get better bombs now. And it doesn't cost you any WBL, so you can also think about picking up a magical ranged weapon or finesse weapon.

Level 4: Calculated Splash looks nice.

Level 5: 50% more bombs.

Level 6: Debilitating Bombs are a nice setup for a mean twist on Perpetual Infusion, especially since it works at Class DC.

Level 7: Okay, now you just have unlimited lesser ammo.

---

I'm not saying the alchemist is as strong a class as the others, but I think it's not so bad as people claim. I do think that it's a class that requires more system mastery and some luck with the campaign (tendency towards enemies that have weaknesses).

Wen I sign up for class named "bomber alchemist", and read the description in the rulebook, I don't expect to be using a sling or crossbow for 50% or more of my attacks.

"During Combat Encounters...
You lob bombs at your foes, harry your enemies, and support the rest of your party with potent elixirs. At higher levels, your mutagens warp your body into a resilient and powerful weapon."

Replace that with

"Lob a bomb at a foe once during combat with hopefully the right kind of bomb, and the mobs are in the exactly right spot. You made your Recall Knowledge check right? Tough luck that it's a Religous or Nature check.

Shoot a crossbow/sling to harry your enemies, they probably won't notice you're there though.

Hand out the one or two elixirs you have at low level who's benefits outweigh the side effects.

Also just forget this mutagen part."

To me multi-classing, like an elven alchemist using a bow, is a trap pick that you'll have to retrain out of down the line, since they don't really improve and muti-classing as an alchemist is tough with all the mandatory feats you have to take to keep relevant.

It doesn't help either that the class feat choices feel so bland. Oh, I can throw my bombs 10 more feet now. I could take ranger multi-class to do the same thing but that extend range feat is a pre-req down the line so no can do.

Besides, if you have to pick certain ancestry feats or give up class feats for a dedication to be viable instead of going with what your class gives you, there's something fundamentally broken with the options available for you for the class.

In one paragraph you argue that you'd run out of bombs doing 3 bombs a round for 5 rounds, and in the next you say persistent damage is useless because it doesn't last more than a turn or two because things die too fast.

What is the first bomber throwing bombs at for 5 rounds if they're all dead after 2?

5 rounds and then you're a crossbow peasant for the rest of the day. That also assumes you make nothing but bombs, so no toolkit elixirs, no healing elixirs, no mostly-useless mutagens. Persistent damage might be more useful at higher levels with sticky bombs and higher health monsters but it's going to be a slog to get there.

I think people are forgetting that critically missing with a bomb does zero damage, so you're only going to splash with that 3rd bomb a bit more than half the time.

Throwing limited inventory bombs for 2 to 4 points of splash damage each also feels asinine. Couple that with when a cantrip like electric arc, balance issues aside, does more damage to some monsters than your limited inventory fire bomb, it feels really lousy.

Given it's been a month with zero news it's looking more like there are no further alchemist fixes incoming, so it might be time to re-roll something useful while Season 1 of PFS is still going.

Xethik wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Even discounting electric arc, optimized bomb builds just don't seem to keep up with the bottom baseline abilities of other classes. Poisons kind of do, if you have Powerful Alchemy to keep the DCs high and your target isn't immune, but the action economy prevents you from creating the poison, applying it, and making a Strike with it before it becomes inert. You either suck up the lower DCs (which make poison useless) or you need haste, or you need to pick up Enduring Alchemy.

Daily reminder that optimized bomb builds do more damage than optimized fighter archery builds pre-13th, before we talk about splash damage being dealt to everything in 10ft.

And then we can talk about debuffs and such.

Can you link a thread that further discusses this? Don't want to derail too much.

Here you are. I break down the numbers here, and then on request compare it to a triple shot fighter.

The quick summary is that alchemist damage is incredibly deceptive, due to how splash damage is also dealt on a failure.

Arrows are practically free, and much longer ranged. Bombs cost reagents. At level 13 you could do this for 18 rounds, if you made nothing but bombs. Make anything else, like quicksilver mutagen or any utility elixir, and that number goes down one round per item type.

Compare to the level 4 alchemist who is doing 2d8 + 4 splash with fire per attack, and if you do 3 a round you're out of bombs after the 5th round. Fighter is doing that much damage with each arrow and is much more likely to hit. Even worse if you try this before you get calculated splash.

Perpetual bombs get buffed a little if you have goggles, so they can stay current-ish, and combined with sticky bombs are tempting, except that I've hardly ever seen persistent damage work for more than a turn or two. Granted this is lower levels but do monsters really last that much longer at higher levels? Quick alchemy starts eating into actions as well until you get double batch.

Just because the alchemist is weak doesn't mean you can't have fun.

Unless you're super attached to the concept of an alchemist, it's way easier to find something else than to try "fixing" the class.

My alchemist played in one adventure when she was pretty useless outside of a few key Society checks. And then in another adventure where she decimated foes with energy damage. I had fun in both adventures, and I'll keep playing the class even though I suspect the combat problems only get worse with level.

I'm all about having fun with a class. Alchemists have good out of combat skills, are fun to role play, and quick alchemy is a great means to have a out of combat toolkit to creatively solve problems. That toolkit will only grow as more material is published.

If you were doing a custom campaign with a regular group and GM it wouldn't be an issue.

However, if you're playing a bomber alchemist in PFS scenarios (I can't speak for muties or chirros) you have to be able to pull your weight in a fight or your party suffers for it. Every additional player adds to the difficulty of the fights, and if half your party dies because you couldn't do enough damage, or de-buff, or whatever it is the design of a bomber alchemist is supposed to do well in a fight, you're a liability.

And that feeling sucks, and it's what I see every time I play anymore as I gain levels.

I honestly wonder if the people who write the PFS scenarios feel bad for alchemists because I've seen a lot of swarms pop up recently and it's the one thing we can stomp without a sweat.

Starting at level 6 is actually better than it could be, early levels as an alchemist are painful. Shroudb's suggested changes also really help things much more than core rules.

That said, here's my suggestions:

Have her buy Alchemist Goggles, it gives a +1 to hit with bombs. She should have 16+ dex and int for attributes. Make sure she's figuring in the fact that the level 3 bombs are +1 to hit. Touch AC isn't a thing anymore so go for the lowest AC targets if possible.

The bad news is she'll never do as much damage as a Martial class.No one is supposed to anymore apparently. You can come close but only with a long rest in between every encounter and making almost nothing but bombs. Best bet is to daily prep an inventory of bombs as well as elixirs that are useful to yourself or party members (mistform for the fighter, eagle eye for trap finding, healing, etc.)

An assortment of pre-made bombs lets you target elemental weaknesses, but I've found most critters don't tend to have any, so you can't really count on it. Acid bombs look good in theory but in practice I've rarely had them do much damage since the rest of my party killed things before the persistent damage kicked in more than once. So, throw fire or electrical bombs if no resistances or weaknesses. Splash damage is a trivial amount of damage but it can help on the rare times when you can hit more than once critter at once. Plus, she'll be the death of any swarm that shows up, so that's nice.

Mutagens are mostly useless below level 11, I've never successfully had a teammate want one despite trying to hand them out every adventure. The drawbacks are worse than the buffs mostly, but quicksilver might be useful to the ranger and herself as long as they can healing kit the damage it does after it wears off.

Basically, the best they can do is use their perpetual bombs to apply status de-buffs on the enemies. Dazzled is a good option, as well as flat-footed. Perpetual electrical bombs are a good pick, since it can apply both of those if it hits. Deafening enemy casters can cause their spell casts to fail as well.

Pre-poisoning melee and thrown weapons is also an attractive option, since with your house rules the poison DC will be high enough to maybe actually affect things. Don't poison ammo though since it's destroyed on use, whereas you don't use up melee poison until you hit.

There's a balance between what an alchemist makes for their daily prep and what they make using quick alchemy, and that takes trial and error to find what matches their play-style unfortunately. It also varies a lot depending on level as well as the nature of a particular adventure (several encounters in one day or over several days with long rests in between). Makes it hard to make any recommendations but 2/3 daily 1/3 quick isn't a bad starting place.

To correct some information, smoke sticks can't be thrown, but smoke bombs plus cat's eye's elixirs can be a nice combo. It'll annoy and affect your teammates unless you can afford to hand out elixirs to everyone though.

Throwing 3 bombs to do splash damage is a waste of ordinance, unless they're perpetual bombs. Fun fact: all levels of bombs do the same damage for splash if you take Calculated Splash, only if you take expanded splash at 10 can you actually add your int mod to the splash damage. So, with 20 int, at level 10, your regular bombs will do 7 splash the perpetuals will do 6. Unfortunately your bombs also become radius 10 instead of 5 so it becomes even less likely you'll be able to throw them without hitting a teammate, but the 1 or 2 point damage buff might be worth it?

Beyond that, hopefully the folks at Paizo come out with some alchemist fixes soon.

...When you use Knockdown...

Still the most important part. You're still using Knockdown, and Knockdown is 2 actions.

I think the confusion here is that regular Knockdown acts like those other multi-attack feats where you make 2 strikes, rolled separately, but MAP doesn't apply until after both, so you get your second attack with no penalty, and a third regular strike would be -10 or whatever. So with Knockdown you get to do your Trip action at the same time as the strike and you don't take MAP on it.

Improved Knockdown just states that, when you use Knockdown, instead of rolling a Strike and then rolling a Trip, you just roll a Strike, and if it hits you apply the critical Trip automatically.

No where does it state that it reduces the Action cost of Knockdown. The Strike performed is part of Knockdown, not a separate action.

That's how it's in the book, and a PFS GM and I both agreed that seems like a correct interpretation when that scenario happened to me, so I'd say yes.

Thanks for starting this thread. I was going to do so myself but I had to take the kiddos trick or treating :)

I'm going to paste here part of what I put in the advice fourm in a post about mutagenists, mainly regarding reagent improvements:

"One thing I can think of that might help is modify how infused reagents work. You get twice what you have now but each is only good for one elixir/bomb/mutagen, and it takes 2 to do quick alchemy. That way you could have a wider selection of pre-prepped elixirs on hand, especially for ones that you only really need one per day of. Also, you could get a small number of free reagents that only apply for your research field. So, for example, a bomber could hand out goodies to the team without reducing themselves to a crossbow peasant."

I really like the idea Zwordsman had regarding the ability to refocus and get at least a few infused reagents back to be able to whip up something for the party. As it is now I'd never, ever use infused reagents on something like a sunrod or worse, a tindertwig. One of the things I really liked about the PF1 alchemist was the "bag of tricks" feel. Party falling into a pit? Throw an impact foam. Need to buy time to retreat in a dungeon? Coral boulder and a create water orison from the cleric.

That was fun for me. I could hand out infusions to help the party, throw bombs for damage or status effects, and in downtime craft a few odds and ends for emergencies.

If you look at the "Roleplaying the Alchemist" section of the core rules it doesn't feel like you can really do any of that. You can throw bombs, or make elixirs, or make mutagens that hurt you more than they help you. That might improve with time as more items are added but do people have to wait a year for a class to be viable and fun?

Not to derail or anything, but I've had a similar experience with my bomber alchemist.

For the most part the mutagens aren't worth using, with the whole "2e tight math" paradigm nobody wants to take a big hit on a save for a minor buff. Some of the elixirs are neat (Eagle Eye, Cat's Eye, Comprehension, Bravo's Brew) but are pretty situational, and the rest are either too short duration or even more situational, or aren't worth the reagent cost (Cheetah). Antidotes and Anti-plagues are nice, if you took them before you were diseased or poisoned, but limited reagents at low level means you can't just have them lying around.

I've heard the argument that Alchemists are a buffer class first and shouldn't be trying to do damage, but what do you do when no-one wants your buffs because the penalty is too high and the rest of your buffs are situational at best?

I guess I hand two Eagle Eyes to the rogue, two Elixirs of life each to the fighter and barbarian, 4 bombs on the off chance I run into a swarm or 3 mooks happen to be in just the right spot where I won't hit my teammates (for a whopping 1 extra splash damage,woo!), and one quick alchemy for emergencies.

And spend every combat round shooting a crossbow shot or two. Maybe toss in a distraction or intimidate check to shake things up. I mean, useful, maybe, but not really fun.

One thing I can think of that might help is modify how infused reagents work. You get twice what you have now but each is only good for one elixir/bomb/mutagen, and it takes 2 to do quick alchemy. That way you could have a wider selection of pre-prepped elixirs on hand, especially for ones that you only really need one per day of. Also, you could get a small number of free reagents that only apply for your research field. So, for example, a bomber could hand out goodies to the team without reducing themselves to a crossbow peasant.

Aricks wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

...

let's assume we have seen other things not in this document for the purpose of this thread and talk about what is in the document. At least it would make it easier for us from a standpoint of hearing feedback on the document's content to keep it to that, the better to hear from you about what you think on the changes we did include for this first document...

Fair enough!

The backpack changes are nice, a useful change.

It seems unfair that alchemical crafting needs a 6 bulk item when other crafting only needs a 2 bulk item.

So I think there's some confusion over this. Alchemist tools are all you need for your daily preparations or anything outside of downtime mode. The lab is specifically for crafting during downtime mode. As written, you need a whole work space to do downtime mode for anything else. If you want to craft metal objects you need a Smith workshop complete with a forge. By contrast, your 2 bulk repair kit is only for repairs, not downtime crafting.

The lack of a blacksmith kit you can buy with set bulk doesn't mean you can craft without one. It means you can't actually carry an entire forge and such. The lab let's you Craft while in the field, which is something no other Crafter can do. (Barring very simple stuff like carving wooden stakes or whatever.)

The only exception is Snares, but those are specifically meant to be built in the field. You can also use them to craft during downtime, but you probably won't actually do that anyway. Still, that makes Snare and Alchemy Crafters the only Crafters who can feasibly carry everything they need for proper crafting into the field.

I see what you mean, I didn't see the bit before in the Craft item section that says you may need a workshop. So, actually a buff to alchemists since theoretically we can be out in the field and be able to craft stuff, assuming you can stuff your 6 bulk lab into a bag of holding or have a pack animal of some sort.

I see they also lowered the price of Alchemy Tools to 3gp. So only 1/5 of your starting gold instead of 1/3, which is progress of a sort. Still seems kinda pricey since you still need to buy armor and weapons. Maybe get a free set along with your formula book?

...

let's assume we have seen other things not in this document for the purpose of this thread and talk about what is in the document. At least it would make it easier for us from a standpoint of hearing feedback on the document's content to keep it to that, the better to hear from you about what you think on the changes we did include for this first document...

Fair enough!

It seems unfair that alchemical crafting needs a 6 bulk item when other crafting only needs a 2 bulk item.

The mutagenist change seems underwhelming for a core research bonus, once per 10 minutes, maybe focus based, seems like good idea.

Ammo destroyed on use changes item values a bit (can't recover poisoned arrows, can you recover poisoned darts or daggers?). Also, no more poisoning bows. I didn't see anything on how long an item is poisoned after application, so I'm assuming it doesn't expire.

Excaliburproxy wrote:

shroudb wrote:

i dont find a playstyle of 9/10 you miss 1/10 you hit and insta-win to be particulary "fun".

I think it is fine if that is just one part of the class's kit, especially given that it is 7/20ths and you can adjust that through tactics.

Also, Maxastro makes a point and I will also not that you can catch up your second stat at level 5.

and be down again at level 10.

everyone can increase his success rates with the same tactics, only alchemist has literally 2/3rds the accuracy of ALL other classes (including warpriest)

p.s.

the erratta was an utter disappointment as well.

"once/day" that is a joke at best, they could save some face and simply remove the ability altogether, that's about how useful it is.

So it's worth half an infused reagent and maybe saves you an action. Yeah.

Apparently future fixes are forthcoming. I won't hold my breath.

Well, the Bulk fixes are nice. I'm underwhelmed otherwise.

Are there any plans for any of the class issues brought up for Alchemists? I was hoping we'd see them here, and that doesn't seem to be the case.

Also, it appears shields that do things when you block with them are still apparently one use items, since at their appropriate level they'll get destroyed with one block.

Edit: Missed the "not every problem has been addressed in this document" bit. Hopefully future fixes are incoming not too long in the future. I think it'd be appreciated if there was a "we've noticed concerns about _____ and we're working on it"

That way we can be more selective about what we debate and what may still need to be reported.

So alchemists get a kit bulk fix and a mutagenist fix.

Apparently nothing else? I personally don't think it was funny that the review was skipped over.

Any information on the nature and schedule of release of alchemist class and equipment fixes/errata would be greatly appreciated. See numerous already created and commented threads, including the homebrew section, for details.

Thanks!