Alchemist Crits & Persistent Dmg


Rules Discussion


PAGE 544 under SPLASH Damage ....

For example, if you threw a lesser acid flask and hit your target, that creature would take 1d6 persistent acid damage and 1 acid splash damage. All other creatures within 5 feet of it would take 1 acid splash damage. On a critical hit, the target would take 2d6 persistent acid damage, but the splash damage would still be 1. If you missed, the target would take 1 splash damage. If you
critically failed, no one would take any damage.

So, does this mean that a critical hit with an acid flask would be 2d6 persistent damage per round unless you succeed on your DC 15 Flat check at the end of the round ?


Page 544, under the SPLASH chapter ...

For example, if you threw a lesser acid flask and hit your target, that creature would take 1d6 persistent acid damage and 1 acid splash damage. All other creatures within 5 feet of it would take 1 acid splash damage. On a critical hit, the target would take 2d6 persistent acid damage, but the splash damage would still be 1. If you missed, the target would take 1 splash damage. If you critically failed, no one would take any damage.

So, does this mean an acid bomb would inflict 2d6 persistent acid damage per round unless you made your DC 15 Flat check ?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

That's how it's in the book, and a PFS GM and I both agreed that seems like a correct interpretation when that scenario happened to me, so I'd say yes.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Seems pretty clear as written. I’m glad I saw this thread because I was actually just trying to figure out whether or not persistent damage was effected by criticals.

One other thing of note that’s easy to miss is that acid flasks do 1 point of acid damage on a hit, on top of the splash and persistent damage.


Brew Bird wrote:

Seems pretty clear as written. I’m glad I saw this thread because I was actually just trying to figure out whether or not persistent damage was effected by criticals.

One other thing of note that’s easy to miss is that acid flasks do 1 point of acid damage on a hit, on top of the splash and persistent damage.

my guess is that this is just there to trigger weaknesses, since it doesn't scale at all.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
shroudb wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:

Seems pretty clear as written. I’m glad I saw this thread because I was actually just trying to figure out whether or not persistent damage was effected by criticals.

One other thing of note that’s easy to miss is that acid flasks do 1 point of acid damage on a hit, on top of the splash and persistent damage.

my guess is that this is just there to trigger weaknesses, since it doesn't scale at all.

Yeah, probably. I was just pointing it out because I had somehow missed that line completely.


yeah thats how it works as far as I know.

and yep that extra point of splash is nice.
I'm pretty sure the "main" damage of the bomb is multipled on crit.

Taking Alch Fire. I think the d8 is multiplied but not its persistent damage (and never the splash).

or am I wrong and all persistent damage is multiplied? (i.e. main damage and persistance on all is multipled. Which would extend to Sticky Bomb discovery too)


Persistent damage is usually called out based on what you use. Shocking Grasp spell and Acid Splash cantrip compared to Produce Flame Cantrip and the other alchemical bombs are plenty precedent enough of "nothing changes unless it says so."


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Persistent damage is usually called out based on what you use. Shocking Grasp spell and Acid Splash cantrip compared to Produce Flame Cantrip and the other alchemical bombs are plenty precedent enough of "nothing changes unless it says so."

My understanding is that bombs are treated as martial ranged weapon attacks, and thus you use the strike action when you use one. Any base damage of any type, including persistent damage, is doubled, as per the rules for critical hits with the strike action.

However, Spell attacks are explicitly called out as not following the rules for strikes and only have an additional effect when it is stated in the spell or power. The only difference between a critical hit and a successful hit with the acid splash spell, as written, is that it does 1 point of persistent damage to the primary target.


Yeah, I figured the die damage doubled, the splash doesn't, but wasn't 100% sure about the extra point the acid bomb does.

That's a faq candidate right there, what damage is doubled upon a critical hit with a alchemical bomb? Specifically, is it only the die damage or is it everything besides splash? Would a crit with lesser alchemical fire thrown by a goblin with burn it feat do (1d8 +1) * 2 damage plus 4 persistent or 1d8 *2 + 1 and 3 persistent damage? Or something else?

Reading the crit hit rule again makes me think everything doubles except splash.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aricks wrote:

Yeah, I figured the die damage doubled, the splash doesn't, but wasn't 100% sure about the extra point the acid bomb does.

That's a faq candidate right there, what damage is doubled upon a critical hit with a alchemical bomb? Specifically, is it only the die damage or is it everything besides splash? Would a crit with lesser alchemical fire thrown by a goblin with burn it feat do (1d8 +1) * 2 damage plus 4 persistent or 1d8 *2 + 1 and 3 persistent damage? Or something else?

Reading the crit hit rule again makes me think everything doubles except splash.

The Splash trait also specifically states that splash damage does not get multiplied on a critical hit.


It's a Strike:

so everything gets doubled on a crit EXCEPT effects that are applied because of the crit itself (none for bombs as far as i'm aware) or specifically exluded (splash in the case of bombs).

So persistent in an alchemist fire would get doubled as well.


So, on a crit the acid flask would do 2d6 persistent dmg per round then until the DC 15 flat check was made?


orphias wrote:
So, on a crit the acid flask would do 2d6 persistent dmg per round then until the DC 15 flat check was made?

But the Critical is on the Attack , ie I throw the Bomb using Strike Feature.. the On going Damaging of PErsistant Damage has nothing to do with the Stick .. You are on Fire or melting from Acid..

Ie Just like Acid Arrow works , the Persistent Damage is not Crit.

And being hard to hit , BS.. Bomber hardly ever missed.
DM put him behind a fence of bars which the Bomber could throw through, and we needs AC 27 to hit him..

Also if Persistent damage crits .. ALOT More TPK's since our DM got rid of Hero Points.


So 2d6 persistent damage...

Is that rolling 2d6 each time, or roll once and that's how much you take each turn?


fedana wrote:
orphias wrote:
So, on a crit the acid flask would do 2d6 persistent dmg per round then until the DC 15 flat check was made?

But the Critical is on the Attack , ie I throw the Bomb using Strike Feature.. the On going Damaging of PErsistant Damage has nothing to do with the Stick .. You are on Fire or melting from Acid..

Ie Just like Acid Arrow works , the Persistent Damage is not Crit.

And being hard to hit , BS.. Bomber hardly ever missed.
DM put him behind a fence of bars which the Bomber could throw through, and we needs AC 27 to hit him..

Also if Persistent damage crits .. ALOT More TPK's since our DM got rid of Hero Points.

If you want to rationalise it, think of it as "having your face covered in acid is much more damaging than having your armor-covered foot"

Persistent damage is part of the damage of the strike, so it does get doubled.

As for your GM removing hero points, that's as much relevant as saying your GM removed Con as a stat.

Hero points are a core system in pf2, not an optional one like PF1. So you're playing with a 100% houserule that makes you squishier. That has nothing to do with persistent.

Alchemist has the lowest attack bonus of every class, so him "hitting always" because he rolls 19s every time is really not relevant at all.


Is persistent damage considered a CONDITION ?


Yes and no. You get a roll every turn at the end of your turn to end the damage, but it’s not a ‘condition’ condition.


Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
Yes and no. You get a roll every turn at the end of your turn to end the damage, but it’s not a ‘condition’ condition.

Persistent Damage is a CONDITION, just like BLIND etc..

It just happens to cause Damage, the Persistent Damage was caused
by the Attack .. You are hit , and then the After effect is
the Persistent Damage...

Just like if someone strike your eyes, which in turn causes you
to go blind (Condition)

Like.. Hit u with a Flame Sword.. you take damage from the sword, and because it hits you , you start burning..

Being a condition , there is no different if u where hit by a critical or normal hit.. you are still burning..


Also , the Game wasn't designed for PC's to take Critical Damage Every Round.. Is Why Acid Arrows Persistent Damage doesnt Critical


Another Spell Example..

SHOCKING GRASP SPELL 1
ATTACK ELECTRICITY EVOCATION
Traditions arcane, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range touch; Targets 1 creature
You shroud your hands in a crackling field of lightning. Make
a melee spell attack roll. On a hit, the target takes 2d12
electricity damage. If the target is wearing metal armor or
is made of metal, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your
attack roll with shocking grasp, and the target also takes 1d4
persistent electricity damage on a hit. On a critical hit, double
the initial damage, but not the persistent damage.

Most importantly , is below..

Persistent Damage
Persistent damage is a condition that causes damage to recur
beyond the original effect.

The important Word here is Beyond , it is the Condition caused by the originak


orphias wrote:
Is persistent damage considered a CONDITION ?

Persistent Damage

Persistent damage is a condition that causes damage to recur
beyond the original effect. Unlike with normal damage,
when you are subject to persistent damage, you don’t take
it right away. Instead, you take the specified damage at the
end of your turns, after which you attempt a DC 15 flat
check to see if you recover from the persistent damage.
See the Conditions Appendix on pages 618–623 for the
complete rules regarding the persistent damage condition

PAge 451


fedana wrote:
Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
Yes and no. You get a roll every turn at the end of your turn to end the damage, but it’s not a ‘condition’ condition.

Persistent Damage is a CONDITION, just like BLIND etc..

It just happens to cause Damage, the Persistent Damage was caused
by the Attack .. You are hit , and then the After effect is
the Persistent Damage...

Just like if someone strike your eyes, which in turn causes you
to go blind (Condition)

Like.. Hit u with a Flame Sword.. you take damage from the sword, and because it hits you , you start burning..

Being a condition , there is no different if u where hit by a critical or normal hit.. you are still burning..

Just Read Page 451 Core Rules

Persistent Damage
Persistent damage is a condition that causes damage to recur
beyond the original effect. Unlike with normal damage,
when you are subject to persistent damage, you don’t take
it right away. Instead, you take the specified damage at the
end of your turns, after which you attempt a DC 15 flat
check to see if you recover from the persistent damage.
See the Conditions Appendix on pages 618–623 for the
complete rules regarding the persistent damage condition

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / Alchemist Crits & Persistent Dmg All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.