I am all for the moral dilemma debate and am in fact kind of delighted, from a narrative and character development perspective, it has emerged.
However, I do want to note that my bringing up "now all we have to deal with is the lava" is Mara's gentle way of saying "hurry the f~@% up and get the fire primordium." Which is not the same thing as saying there won't be a cost of lives if there is no other intervention, but any delay will also have a cost. I point this out not with the intent of strongarming you...
I like exploring in-character moral dilemmas which is why I went this route. I've been queuing up this notion from the beginning and why I kept wanting updates from Mara. I wanted a good reason to bring it to a head. I'm a "wheels-within-wheels" kinda guy. :)
I got that Mara was just adding to the sense of urgency and it wasn't a strongarm tactic. No worries.
I too would like to continue! I'm having a great time, and I think more emergent tactics would be really interesting to see amongst this party!
I am a little curious/mildly concerned though; I know about myself I get a little burned out if there isn't a feeling of meta-progression (IE leveling) every once and a while. It's not a thing that I love, but I'm curious what progression might look like for 17th level characters?
I am trying to come to grips with this 17th level character. Part of him has been useless so far, that isn't your fault. Alot of his damage potential is precision damage and criticals. Needless to say the enemies haven't been the best for that. :) This alias was orginally by Iron Gods gunslinger. He go turned into an investigator for Rise of the Runelords. Neither got very far. I've never really got my head around alchemist "magic". From what I have gleaned I think his extracts only effect him. So the haste I have is pretty useless for the party. That is fine I see him as a self buffer but I think I would make changes should I create another alchemist magic user.
That being said I am enjoying this and would like to continue on with this. Hopefully I'll get a better grip of what I am doing.
Can't you select an Alchemist Discovery like, say, the Infusion discovery in place of a talent? That'll allow others to drink your extracts. Sadly the chance would come up at level 19, since both discovery and feats are at that point.
I am glad most of you are having fun! That's always the most important part. As the adventure continues think about what you might do next (and bear with as I start to make things up as I go along).
Re: leveling, advancement, and adventure reward: depending on how long we go, I certainly would plan to have you level up eventually, and usually tend to do so based on story increments. At the same time, since this is already really high level it is true I do not plan to have you level at a rapid pace.
I am actually, technically, using hero points in this system, but nobody's really needed them (and I admit I kind of forgot about them after a bit). Often rewarding hero points is a way I help offer player rewards, but I'm not sure how meaningful they are at this level.
I had toyed about pushing us into mythic tiers, but just running us at this level has been quite the GM workout, and I fear I would burn out trying to keep track of mythic rules on top of everything else.
So this leaves me to ask: what do you need to feel rewarded for effort? Is it XP and treasure? Is it simply unfolding narratives? Do you want deeper dives into character stuff and meeting personal goals? Is there some way we could modify the hero point system to better suit this level and nature of game? Would something like bonus feats or traits (more flavorful than powerful) be suitable?
I want to note that, as you may have noticed, I am not a terribly lethal GM. I try to build fights that are interesting and challenging, but particularly at this level an overly tough fight can either be ridiculously easy or a tpk depending on the mood of the die roller. So simply building and leveling to greater amounts of power may not be as satisfying as it could be (or maybe it is, IDK).
Re: Lazur Anil and build issues:
First of all, I recognize this particular adventure has not been tailored to your character's particular strengths, though I do think there are several times you have been very helpful. And I hope, should we continue, you have some more chance to shine. I recruited you thinking a skill-focused, investigator type could come in handy especially in some more exploration or intrigue-focused areas, which we haven't had a lot of yet but could in future. If you have some goals to pursue I could also try to hook you in more as the game evolves (same goes for everyone).
Minor build respecs are fine (once we get to the end of this chapter)--for everyone--if something particular isn't working for you.
I don't work with google docs much but here is the:
Quick and Dirty Loot List
I have not played at this level before, so I have no clue what kind of rewards I would want, to be honest. I would assume it's the unfolding narratives and character-related stuff? But I'm unsure myself, to be honest, and haven't thought of Krowys much character-wise beyond being the translator who was debating between Axis, Sophis, and a single protean lord, in terms of who to give his soul up to, so I have no clue how I would further that.
It's fine not being a terribly lethal GM, I'm not either in the few games I'm GMing, for what it's worth! And as for respecs, I'm pretty comfortable with the build, might switch out a few of the spellhexes.
Honestly, I'm a little unsure as well. I had looked forward to one specific mythic ability, mythic vital strike, to make up for the fact that I am not a full attacker, or a pounce-r, and thus am comparatively worse than other barbarians at level. I like making bad guys explode into gibbets! :) Beyond that, there wasn't a whole lot in mythic that interested me. Build is pretty much finished. I'm open to other ideas though! Bonus feats, boons, gestalted class levels, fun items, GM fiat, I like brainstorming ideas!
I know this makes me sound like a bit of a min-maxer. While that's true to an extent, I plead the Stormwind fallacy. I love RP, and would like some opportunities for Trer to show her sneakier, more tenacious side!
Re: Lazur Anil and build issues:
First of all, I recognize this particular adventure has not been tailored to your character's particular strengths, though I do think there are several times you have been very helpful. And I hope, should we continue, you have some more chance to shine. I recruited you thinking a skill-focused, investigator type could come in handy especially in some more exploration or intrigue-focused areas, which we haven't had a lot of yet but could in future. If you have some goals to pursue I could also try to hook you in more as the game evolves (same goes for everyone).
Mostly I'm trying to get used to how extracts are different than spells. Any extract that has target of #/level I lose all other than me. That's fine but I play a lot of mages and there is a bit of a block there. The only thing I think I want to change is my extract selection. The one big drawback to alchemist casting is you have to do it before hand. There is no way to drink an extract defensively, so once you are in contact with the enemy you are the way you are.
Thank you for saying I have been helpful. I think when/if we continue he will be able to use some of his other skills
Any build has strengths and weaknesses. I built a critfishing AoO type character, that is what the enlarge person and long arm are for. I think a 15' reach is rare and hopefully will catch some bad guys out. So far my combat strengths haven't been useful but I can still fight. I would like to see what this build can do. And I am interested in what my campaign trait tells me. I liked it when I saw it and I added the midwife and healing angle because of it. Lazur was a forger in his original investigator build and still is.
As for "leveling up" I think past level 20, I do want to see level 20, feats would be nice, or traits or even class or archetype features from other classes.
As for mythic vital strike, that needs to be removed from the worlds memory as if it never existed. I'm running a Wrath campaign and it is awful. You basically crit every time you hit.
This morning I recalled another "reward" process could be, if you are interested in this kind of thing, would be some stronghold and/or kingdom building. A possible reward could be the local powers that be giving you the island to run as a province of the Free Coast, or if that is too much responsibility, a stronghold on the land (especially as all of your characters are all travelers by nature, it could be useful to have a home base to store things and return to when you need to regroup or do some downtime tasks). Some of your adventuring rewards could include materials and labor that constitute BP or kingdom building aspects to expand what you can do.
Both of these things do involve some tracking and maintenance of things if we went that route, and I'd need player help to keep track of resources you have for these things, but it could be--for some--a fun way that reflects your status and allows your PCs to gain in power and resources in a way that isn't necessarily directly character build related.
Mostly I'm trying to get used to how extracts are different than spells. Any extract that has target of #/level I lose all other than me.
I believe an investigator can take as a talent the Infusion discovery, which allows someone else to imbibe. If not I think I'd allow you to take it as a talent.
The one big drawback to alchemist casting is you have to do it before hand. There is no way to drink an extract defensively, so once you are in contact with the enemy you are the way you are.
Forgive me for nitpicking, but there's a vast difference between "provokes an attack of opportunity" and "no way to do it." You absolutely can consume an extract in a threatened space, it just incurs risk. Extracts are drunk like potions (except you can pull it out as well as drink it as part of your standard actions). This does mean it provokes an AOO. However:
- The foe has to be threatening you (which is harder when you use long arm), have an AOO available, choose to use its AOO, and actually successfully hit you. All of these things are variable conditions. A risk is there, but not a sure thing.
- Best as I can tell, drinking a potion in combat does not cause you to lose the potion if you get hit by an AOO. I would ergo rule that if you are successfully AOOed while consuming an extract, you do not lose the extract (unlike a spell, which fizzles if concentration fails), unless the AOO was sufficient to make you unconscious, dead, or somehow immobile such that you could not finish the action. Prone would probably also make you drop the extract before you could drink it. But damage alone, I'd say the downside is you take the damage, but you can still consume the extract.
- Since consuming an extract uses a standard action, most cases would allow you to 5 foot step and then take it (which is also what most spellcasters do rather than cast defensively if they have the option). That prevents delivering a magic touch attack on that turn, but I think you can hold the charge as you would a spell for the next round.
Any build has strengths and weaknesses. I built a critfishing AoO type character, that is what the enlarge person and long arm are for. I think a 15' reach is rare and hopefully will catch some bad guys out.
This is true and I think it is an effective build--but do note at this level you are going to deal with a lot of very big monsters who may have similar reach (but you at least don't have to go through their threatened area to fight them). I just need to remember you have the reach...
So far my combat strengths haven't been useful but I can still fight.
Trer is obviously the party melee damage dealer, but especially with your extended reach you can make a valuable flanking buddy. Melee support isn't always a shiny role, but an important one.
I would like to see what this build can do. And I am interested in what my campaign trait tells me. I liked it when I saw it and I added the midwife and healing angle because of it.
I'm glad you took it! Could lead to some plot threads or interesting flavor moments at least. You could also try to use it on the PCs with the players' permission. (though I am unlikely to try to predict the PCs' deaths.)
Oh, I forgot all about the kingdom building rules! I love playing Civ by hand! In all seriousness though, I actually do quite enjoy the kingdom building rules.
I’m enjoying the game and the chance to play a high-level character again. It’s been several years.
But I think Ariston has contributed little to the battles, which bothers me a bit. Part of that is that I typically play active character classes with more offensive options… so sitting back and letting everyone else rain destruction is a personal challenge. Part is the nature of the scenario… a tight cave system is not going to see our characters overrun by an army where action/economy is firmly against us and I need to bounce around as the battlefield medic. And part is my loadout of spells wasn’t ideal for the scenario. With no time to rest and swap out spells I pretty much had to ‘make due’ with what I had. I don’t mind that kind of time/resource constraint but my best guess with an unfamiliar class led to some ‘meh’ choices on my part and no chance to fix that issue. And the unknowns of each upcoming plane led me to be conservative in my spell usage, just in case the next one was way worse. Also on me, shortly after the game started, I realized that I had not grabbed one of the feats that I planned to take that would have made Ariston a bit more useful in many combats. In short, it’s been a learning experience. :)
So, if I were to continue on with the adventure, I’d like to change a few feats and possibly swap out a domain to give Ariston a few more interesting options in battle.
In terms of adventure rewards… Solving mysteries (you’ve woven in some fun ones), tackling problems, interesting RP, exploration, moral grey areas, and curious scenarios works for me. Leveling up is nice but at 17th level, we’re adding fractions of abilities not anything huge… with the exception of Mira. One more level and she gets 9th level spells which – as a player of sorcerers – I’d be drooling to get! Cash is nice, powerful items are nice, even having a base or an area of land (possibly a demi-plane we have to wrest from several OP baddies) would all be grand. I wouldn’t mind a mix and match of all of the above, honestly.
Personally, I’d shy away from mythic stuff. I was in one mythic adventure at median levels (I think we were L7/MR3) and it had already devolved into Rocket Tag, where the side that fired first utterly dominated the battle and it was all over by round 3, particular with tricks like ‘Extra Standard Action’, etc. Just my two cents on the matter. I’m not saying I’d drop the game but I’d expect the life expectancy of the campaign to be a lot shorter. YMMV
I believe an investigator can take as a talent the Infusion discovery, which allows someone else to imbibe. If not I think I'd allow you to take it as a talent.
Mostly I'm trying to get used to how extracts are different than spells. Any extract that has target of #/level I lose all other than me.
It is not about for instance cure light on someone else but the multiple target ones, ie haste and others. There is the Infusion I can take but that doesn't solve the issue. Extracts only effect the person that drinks it. I just need to get that through my thick skull.
The one big drawback to alchemist casting is you have to do it before hand. There is no way to drink an extract defensively, so once you are in contact with the enemy you are the way you are.
Forgive me for nitpicking, but there's a vast difference between "provokes an attack of opportunity" and "no way to do it." You absolutely can consume an extract in a threatened space, it just incurs risk. Extracts are drunk like potions (except you can pull it out as well as drink it as part of your standard actions). This does mean it provokes an AoO. However:
This is exactly what I am talking about about being too used to other spell asters. I know all of what you just said but as a mage I would never cast a spell in AoO range of someone if I can't reliably do it defensively due to the risk of losing the spell. Alchemist casting though worst case you take a hit, unless they sunder or disarm you.
I would like to see what this build can do. And I am interested in what my campaign trait tells me. I liked it when I saw it and I added the midwife and healing angle because of it.
I'm glad you took it! Could lead to some plot threads or interesting flavor moments at least. You could also try to use it on the PCs with the players' permission. (though I am unlikely to try to predict the PCs' deaths.)
Since we have adventured before I had assumed I already had those visions. Lazur views these as a gift from Tria and will not refuse them.
I will say, if you do get infusion, I would absolutely love either long arms or, more greedily, a high level monstrous physique spell
I am away with work until Thursday so wont be able to post much.
I was also not sure if we can all react to the current situation or just Trer?
Since Trer takes point, I wanted to describe to Trer what she saw first, since I don't know if she would tell everyone and/or let everyone through to see what she is seeing.
I'd say give her another half a day, and if she does not post, go ahead and assume she just reports back and you can respond.
Works for me!
Works for me as well!
Since Trer flies through without hesitating, you would probably just folow. Unfortunately, she has not warned you about the 10 foot drop to the ground, but those of you not flying already and not expecting it (I trust your judgment) can attempt a DC 18 Reflex save to cling to the edge of the portal). (If you're all flying no problem.)
I am back and catching up.
Busy day, will get the dice rolling hopefully tonight!
Thanks for letting us know!
Combat post is up!
BTW I do not plan to have quite so much combat going forward... I'd rather do some more exploring/RP with less frequent fights (and or very quick battles that may absorb resources and then the occasional big one). I may toy with some high level systems like managing large group battles or something if the opportunity presents itself.
Sounds like at least some of you liked the idea of some kingdom/stronghold building... I am going to start planning some options for that if y'all like it. If it isn't any of y'all's cup of tea, now is not the time. Ariston, also saw the thought about a demiplane/planar stronghold and that is a possibility, but that will probably be further down the line.
Could not get on yesterday and need to do a bunch of stuff today. Hope to post later tonight but may not be till Monday morning (U.S. East Coast time). I need more time for die rolling and I am *checks clock* currently 20 minutes late for meeting for worship.
Re: Mirabelle's IC comment:
Surveying the devastation she glances over towards the City of Brass, Really, you thought you could challenge an Empire of Efreeti with this...foolishness.
In fairness to them, and as a reminder to what is going on in the background in case you missed it amidst my verbosity: there are at least dozens of more ships like this one sailing toward the City of Brass while this is going on. You've hopped into witnessing a full scale invasion, not one tiny ship hoping to attack a whole city by itself. These guys just noticed the Wellspring and thought it'd be useful to use it to juice up their golem before rejoining the fleet.
Just another background story element the original dev threw in here that could be expanded on or ignored later. (Plus if you figure out how to transfer something that large to another plane, the galleon is yours.)
And while it is absolutely in character for Mirabelle to presume all are lesser and foolish, this band would decimate your average adventuring party, and one of the raiders is equal in CR to an average efreeti. You guys literally make up about half of your world's most powerful badasses. People underestimating you is going to be common. (ANd at this level sometimes it's fun to throw fodder at the PCs just to see how fast it gets shredded...)
Yeah, I saw there were other ships, I still doubt they have anything like enough to attack the City of Brass. Could be an interesting thing to poke at after the game. So many intriguing threads!
Sorry folks, my (82 y.o.) dad was sick yesterday and I got home later than expected. And I'm running late this morning, so I'll have to get a post up later. I think you've actually already killed nearly everyone so you can feel free to check the stats in the meantime... if anyone did survive that I expect their only action will be to attempt to flee...
Sorry folks, my (82 y.o.) dad was sick yesterday and I got home later than expected. And I'm running late this morning, so I'll have to get a post up later. I think you've actually already killed nearly everyone so you can feel free to check the stats in the meantime... if anyone did survive that I expect their only action will be to attempt to flee...
Family comes first, take all the time you need. I hope your dad is OK.
Poor single Salamander standing next to Krowys with 1HP...
But yeah, no worries, family first! Hope your dad is okay, GMDQ
Thanks for understanding all. (Dad will be okay--just needed some extra assistance.) I think we can safely move forward...
How much is left of the preplanned adventure, might I ask?
Very little! Largely the rest is returning to the city and dealing with the aftermath.
I went down the rabbit-hole of how to bring a construct 'back to life'. I did a quick search on the site and it seems that all the Resurrection variants don't work. Ross Byers suggested (not officially) that it would take a Wish or Miracle to do the job. I'm going to research it a bit more just because I've never played with the idea before.
I'm not suggesting we need to do it, now I'm curious.
An alternate proposition: I think it would occur to Ariston that Mara, priests of the god of craftsmanship and maker of clockwork guardians, might know a thing or two about how to put a golem back together the long way, and that she might wish to repay the party for what they've done--especially if they reserve their materials for miracle for helping the island. You could certainly collect its most important bits into the portable hole you found and bring them to her if you wanted...
(But obviously the ship won't fit into the portable hole in its current state)
Would you consider that route?
Otherwise I am reading miracle and considering what else it may do...
I'm totally fine with dropping the golem chunks into the portable hole. And if Mara can get the guy running, I can't object to that either.
Apropos of nothing, I also wanted to note that for kicks and giggles I bought the 5e Planescape box set so now I have a whole book just about Sigil... (I sadly never got a copy of the 2e Planescape book).... plenty of content that does not have to coordinate with a particular system...
I may be slightly slower than usual (1/day post) for the next few days, and if this is going too slowly to set up let me know. Saturday through Monday I will be out of town and not able to get online much, and then we should be back to regular posting after that.
I'm out of town tomorrow night through Monday so my posting will likely be seriously reduced and may occur at odd hours.
I may be slightly slower than usual (1/day post) for the next few days, and if this is going too slowly to set up let me know. Saturday through Monday I will be out of town and not able to get online much, and then we should be back to regular posting after that.
No hurry here, dont worry about it.
No worries, GMDQ
I'm kind of making this up as I go along, but I'm imagining for the moment we're addressing groups of creatures, not a singular combat or small-scale encounter situation. Nonetheless how you approach the giants and make yourself known to them, etc. is important to see how these next steps go, so details are helpful.
This is probably my last post for a couple days. By the time I get back hopefully Ariston will also be back and we can proceed further. Have a good rest of your weekend!!
I've updated my Open Slot spells, taking Owl's Wisdom and Death Ward.
Here's the rough sketch of a partial plan. Guys, feel free to improve on this:
1. We try to convince the giants to fight with us in exchange for getting their homes back and a guarantee they will be left alone. They get the volcano. I don't speak Giant but I'm happy to contribute an AA or whatever.
2. With Mira's help we all get flying and head to confront the dragons. If we've got some illusion to help hide us from the dragons, great. Maybe the giants can draw their attention. Our focus is the big baddie.
From there on, I think my best use is to assist Trer, like this:
3. I buff myself with Owl's Wisdom and hit Trer with Death Ward (to prevent any Energy Drain the BBEG has).
4. I stick close to Trer and give her a Bit of Luck (and me too) as the BBEG gets close... we can't have her getting frightened by the dragon's aura. As the BBEG gets close, I Dimension Hop Trer into attack range, avoiding the AoOs. I give her another Bit of Luck to boost her attacks... but mostly to give her two saves against whatever the dragon's spells/breath will be.
5. Then we hammer on the BBEG as fast and hard as we can (I'll use channel energy and some touch spells) ... and hopefully live!
6. After we kill the BBEG then we mop up the lesser dragons.
If these are magma dragons (and assuming the BBEG is one too), and our Planar Adaptation is about to run out, I can do a Communal Protection from Fire to blunt that damage.
EDIT: We should definitely split up when we confront the BBEG. We don't want everyone in range of its breath weapon at one time.
Thoughts? Amendments?
That sounds like a plan. I will have to figure a way in myself probably on the opposite side. I believe our planar adaptation has some time on it still.
I can try to talk to the giants we may want to specify any dragon treasure belongs to us.
I am going to use my heroism, stoneskin and echolocation now as they have 170 minute duration as well as delayed consumption paired with cure serious and follow with enlarge person, long arm and shield as they are only 17 minutes. I will need a short amount of time to prepare the cure serious and shield.
LOL I love your optimism about the LOOTZ! XD
I'm imagining Ariston is gonna be an hors d'oeuvre once the undead dragon realises there is a squishy cleric nipping at his flanks with holy magic.
Krowys is presumably going to finally get a use for the healing spells he has prepared. I thought we would need more healing, but we didn't end up needing much yet so time to use them for offense instead!
I like that as a plan. I can get everyone airborne with a Mass Fly spell as its one of the choices I made for Paragon Surge today. I think we need some way of getting the giants attention. Does anyone have any large illusions or maybe a wall spell just to slow them down enough to talk.
Want to check to be sure no one else has anything else to add before I respond to Lazur. In the meantime finishing up drawing the battle map... :)
In other news, I finally finished Baldur's Gate III so that's one less distraction. Highly recommended if you like CRPGs and you haven't played it.
I will post something today, been a busy weekend.