All life sapient or not should have and express appropriate emotions. prey would show fear, love and friendliness. pack creatures could be loyal and loving. Hate is a difficult and complex emotion but it is noticed that even plants respond differently to different people. This is my reasoning and why I phrased it the way I did.
If shot down I can always reword.
Couple of things, posting as one of the mods for this game:
1) Yes, all Cosmic Decrees should at least be posted here in the discussion thread before they are issued in game. Not to pick them apart, or tell you not to make them, but just to see if the other players have any feedback or suggestions. Even my simple "mortal life shall end, eventually" was posted here first, just in case.
2) Per the rules of the game, one should always at the least ask before taking action versus another god's creation(s).
Now, granted nothing was really done to the Shadovar, but they can't be driven mad. They are more or less an extension of Veldrin's divine will, made manifest. The only way they change in personality or outlook is if He does so first.
They have free will, to be sure, and they have a society, though I suppose its more like an order or something than an actual real society, which I can easily change in game.
Point being, while they are not truly autonomous, they are too tied to Veldrin's Will to be driven mad. So unless you feel like engaging me in deity combat, we'll just ignore that.
3) What exactly happened with those Moonstruck on an isle? Was that supposed to be happening on the Dead Isle? If so, Veldrin is currently there, and would instantly crush all intruders, to a "man". No survivors. Then, he would raise them as undead servitors.
Which, I suppose would be Nightwaves. Word.
4) Finally, just to make it easier to read, please try to format properly. "This is speaking while "This tends to be thinking" and ::"This is often telepathy"::
Also, please spoiler your actions and AP expenditures, to keep things neat as well as making it simpler to find them later on, if necessary.
Sorry still working on controls
b Hail/b
Hail
Hail I think I have it
Yes
As Veldrin said all cosmic decrees should be discussed here. As is anything that will effect peoples creations.
Two reasons, one, it is in the rules, and two, because it makes interesting roleplay and opens up story lines. Like spreading madness to the Llieldasine, if you had coordinated it here, I could easily roll that into her teaching them how to use healing magic to stave it off and play the two gods meeting. As of right now she will work to mitigate what you have done.
Also, for all new gods. You can have a Shard of yourself so you can be two places at once.
As a Fledgling you can only have one.
The Begger God, you have created astrology but I see no points for creating the stars astrology is based on. I would put it at the same cost of a moon as they are just "dots" in the night sky.
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Hunh. I think I misunderstood a bunch of things about this system.
I totally understand passing cosmic decrees on through here. They're sweeping and affect the entire game.
All sentient races have access to all mundane concepts (it's in the rules on the wiki) so whenever we introduce one we have to pass it through here as well?
If we make an Advanced or Magical concept we have to run that past anyone with a Greater lifeform (same deal, they have access to all of them)?
I'm going to hold off on more IG posts as I apparently have to create stars and don't have the points for it.
Edit to add: What currently exists? What assumptions can be made?
We have blacksmithing, but no one spent points on smelting, tools, or even metal.
We have Written Language, but no spoken language, no pens, paper, tablets or anything.
There's been no creation of architecture or clothing or roads or settlements.
Take your one point for astrology and recycle that into making stars first.
Since you are new its ok. Astrology is one of those rare concepts that require something there to navigate by. But you will be the creator of the stars!
As for concepts you create, they apply to races you create. If you share the concepts with everyone then everyone's races have access to them. I will read through it again.
I will be updating the campaign tab tonight with the new concepts and if they are shared or not.
And no their hasn't been creations of such concepts yet. I have created races that have no need for architecture as of yet. But I figured let our forger god have a crack at it.
You can post in game and roleplay with the rest of us. Not every post is about spending points.
You may grant any race or organization you control any concept you create or Alchemize. If you want to give your creations a concept that was created by another deity, or use another concept to Alchemize with your own, you must engage that deity in combat.
That is the text under create concept. We are adding that you can ask another god. Still in deliberation about letting gods create the same mundane and advanced concepts.
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You may grant any race or organization you control any concept you create or Alchemize. If you want to give your creations a concept that was created by another deity, or use another concept to Alchemize with your own, you must engage that deity in combat.
That is the text under create concept. We are adding that you can ask another god. Still in deliberation about letting gods create the same mundane and advanced concepts.
Of any type of life that is roughly equal to a human sapience. Sentient Life does not have a bonus for combat, but they have the ability to use any mundane concepts unlike monstrous life.
such as Giants or Fey Greater Life has a +1 bonus to combat, and they have the ability to use any magical or advanced concepts without needing to be part of a society or organization or be a hero or legend
As the races get more powerful they get access to more concepts. If you make gardening, all sentient+ races get gardening. Roads. Stuff like that. That's why they're mundane.
Divine Magic is more limited, but accessed by more powerful creatures.
Not every post is about spending points.
I understand that, but I'm also stuck mid-action because "stars" seemed like something that'd be around, or something assumed in Astrology (like Metal, smelting and tools for blacksmithing).
Yes any race YOU make gets access to all concepts it is eligible for that YOU create and that are shared.
Specifics of create concept outline this.
As for being stuck mid action, you are not. Blacksmiths can make and gather tools. Astrologers can't make stars they are there. I will talk with mods but since stars are celestial bodies we will talk.
Yes any race YOU make gets access to all concepts it is eligible for that YOU create and that are shared.
Specifics of create concept outline this.
That's not how I read it. But I'm not a mod, so that doesn't matter.
The way I read those two is that you can grant your legendary concepts to even monstrous races.
The text for life says "any" not "any you create."
Like I said, my reading doesn't matter.
I've messaged the LoC staff and asked them to clarify the ruleset for future players.
As for being stuck mid action, you are not. Blacksmiths can make and gather tools. Astrologers can't make stars they are there. I will talk with mods but since stars are celestial bodies we will talk.
I'll counter with this: Astrologers can make and gather zodiac charts. Blacksmiths can't make metals that aren't there.
Ok slow down a bit. We seem to be teetering on an argument, so lets try to avoid that.
I am currently at physical therapy right now so once home I too will look stuff over and together we can figure this out.
Please bear in mind that each LoC can and does use their own variations on the official rules. Thus, they are more like guidelines.
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That's certainly not my intention.
Like I said, I emailed the LoC "staff" and asked them about updating the wiki with clearer language (regarding creatures and concepts) for future games.
They're actually surprised that people are using the wiki as it's very out of date.
If the Mods have decided that Concepts and Creatures are entirely exclusive to the players that made them, awesome.
It seems like some things are assumed to come with broader concepts and some aren't.
Quotes: are as stated in the LoC rules wiki
CAPS: are meant for emphasis, not volume of the speaker
*: Means speaking to a specific individual or group of individuals as listed after the *
"Create Concept: You may grant any race or organization you control any concept you create or Alchemize. If you want to give your creations a concept that was created by another deity, or use another concept to Alchemize with your own, you must engage that deity in combat."
One thing to keep in mind is that ANY does not always means ALL. ANY can mean: ONE, SOME, MANY, or ALL.
*Skaldi; the create concept statement clearly restricts ANY with the constraint YOU. The text specifically states that you cannot use ANY concepts that were created by other gods. Again ANY in this case is restricted by the THAT WAS CREATED BY ANOTHER DEITY restraint.
"Sentient Life 2AP: Of any type of life that is roughly equal to a human sapience. Sentient Life does not have a bonus for combat, but they have the ability to use any mundane concepts unlike monstrous life"
Unlike in the previous statement where it was vague that ANY can be applied to specific races/organizations or ALL races/organizations that you control; this statement clearly implies that ANY also means ALL.
"Greater Life 3 AP: such as Giants or Fey Greater Life has a +1 bonus to combat, and they have the ability to use any magical or advanced concepts without needing to be part of a society or organization or be a hero or legend."
This statement further implies that ANY means ALL, but it also shows conflict with the first statement where ANY means SPECIFIC.
"Legendary life 5AP: such as Dragons, Greater Demons, Powerful Angels, Titans, or other blatantly supernatural and extremely powerful beings. Legendary Life has a +3 bonus to combat, and they have the ability to use any concept without needing to be part of a society or organization or be a hero or legend"
This statement is an interesting one because it suggests many things. First it suggests that Legendary life can use ANY (ALL) concepts without "needing to be a part of a society or organization or be a hero or legend." From another perspective this is completely unneeded as the first statement clearly has no eligibility requirements attached to it. According to the first statement, if you wish to give your race the ability to use a legendary concept, it is as simple as saying that they can use it. Nothing more is required.
"Form Order: Form Order allows a god to organize their followers into organizations similar to guilds. These orders can be such things as a Mage's Guild, or an Order of Knights, or even a Company of Mercenaries. Orders are different from Societies in that they can utilize magical as well as advanced concepts during combat."
This implies that there are times outside of combat where the use of advanced and magical concepts are uninhibited.
"Form Society: Form Society allows a god to organize life into grouping beyond simple hunter-gatherer tribes or wandering monsters. This action can be used to set up governments and armies, but not specific things like a mage's guild or an order of knights. (A well established army will obviously be better suited for a prolonged conflict than ill equipped savages. This is represented by the fact that Mortals in societies may use advanced concepts for combat. Mortals not in any society may not. A mortal may only be part of one society at any given time."
This is an interesting statement in that it is flawed. It equates concepts with physical equipment and physical technology: "(A well established army will obviously be better suited for a prolonged conflict than ill equipped savages." Concepts are ideas. They are as intangible as seeing the beauty (a concept) in art (a physical representation) or the implementation of tactics (a concept) when directing an army (a grouping of physical bodies).
*Skaldi; you are right that the concept of Astrology cannot exist without the physical existance of stars.
*Moshado; you are incorrect that the concept of Blacksmithing can exist on its own because you still require the concepts of gathering those materials in the first place, namely: mining, refining, tool making, and so on.
Here is the point of this post... the folks who made the rules CLEARLY have no idea how to put together a universe (they confuse intangible concepts with physical objects). They CLEARLY have no idea how to create a rule system (rules are left ambiguous and conflict). They CLEARLY have no idea how to create a system that encourages a god's creations to interact in a universe with other gods's creations (conflicts between non-gods have no consequences; combat becomes an unnecessary means to an end as the victor cannot dictate anything and the loser loses nothing).
What they CLEARLY do know how to do though, is set up a situation where players are required to communicate with each other; on what they agree the rules are. That is what playing god truly is! Playing god means making the rules and playing with multiple gods means multiple perspectives/opinions on how those rules should be made and implemented.
The game as is leaves much to be desired... basic and yet VERY powerful things have yet to be established. The rules on energy havn't even been created yet... Light, Gravity, Heat, Motion, Electricity... all of it is energy but no legendary concept has been created to supply it. Whole celestial bodies have been created to include planets and moons but other than describing the surface appearance of those objects, very little has been done to suggest that metal even exists. Can we assume it is all there? Yes. SHOULD we assume it is all there?
*Skaldi, Mods; That is the question, but you are right Skaldi; that is a question that has to be answered by the mods.
Tab Updated minus new gods entry
Mods Are discussing on the other items.
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@Monkeygod, I think the solution to my mistake with the Shadowvar is a curse war. It seems like that's what happened anyway, between here and the IG thread, we just didn't spend points.
I figure it's either that or I start roughing out a cosmic decree about mortals that speak to the Beggar.
At the end of the day I had too many ideas floating in my head and over-reached. I also completely misunderstood the rules as they sit.
I feel like I've not really contributed much other than a disruption. If you folks want me to bow out, I'll do so gracefully.
Its OK. Stay and we can work on things. This pointed out things we need to clarify as mods and we are currently working on those items.
You are right that would have been a curse war.
Is Trade an advanced concept?
Mundane gives no distinct combat advantage.
@ Baxtra: I would hold off on concepts for a little while, or at least give it several pass arounds before you start throwing them around. At least until the mods figure out what to do.
Quotes from LoC rules on concepts:
"Mundane 1AP: Non-military Concepts that would have been easily found in ancient rome or greece. Blacksmithing, Literature, Sculpture, and Architecture are examples of Mundane Concepts. A Sentient Race means that they are able to produce their own shelter. Whether that be crude huts, caves, or tents. Societies would get slightly better quality buildings. Wooden houses, fences, the rare and crude stone fort. Architecture as a Concept would allow for more exotic buildings. Stone Castles, Pyramids, and others. Think of Architecture as a concept representing a society's signature building designs. Aztec, British, Gothic, those are all kinds of architecture found in the real world."
"Advanced 2AP : Advanced concepts are technological marvels that revolutionize the way a society works. Things such as engineering, Gunpowder, Steam Power, and Plumbing, are Advanced Concepts. Military concepts such as armies, sword fighting, martial arts, dueling, archery, discipline would be advanced concepts. Any Society created can have a military if the creator wishes. Whether this is more like a militia, or the society is more like vikings in that the "warrior" is the default job. Advanced concepts for armies would represent structuring and training beyond giving your capable men and women a spear and leather jerkin. Steam Punk no matter how advanced would always be advanced not magical - so have fun with your dirigibles (Same goes for each other punk variant, such as clockpunk, biopunk, cowpunk. EXCEPT for cyber punk - that will be a legendary concept). Advanced Concept can add +1 to mortal combat"
Based on that right there, Trade should be a mundane concept. Trade has been going on for a long time - long before the greeks or the romans. Local trade was commonplace in the roman times and even international trade was big. When rome got into its empire building days, they had built roads, ports, and established armies, posts, and levied taxes and tariffs ALL for the sake of facilitating and guiding trade. One could argue that trade revolutionizes how a society works and you would be right but the second quote makes the distinction that only technological advances are considered advanced concepts. According to this, social, cultural and political advances like equality, government, hygiene, and even language are all considered mundane. This is because while many of them require technology to function or more accurately function better, they are not needed. For instance, humans had soap for a long time. We used things like soap and various cleaner agents to clean all sorts of things but it wasn't until an army nurse figured out that her patients live longer if everybody washed their hands, that the concept of hospital hygiene was widely accepted.
Remember folks: CONCEPTS have to deal with abstract thoughts and ideas on how to implement social and technological changes. If you are granting a race some kind of knowledge or skill, then you are probably dealing with a concept. According to the text on advanced concepts, unless it is a technological marvel that revolutionizes the way a society works then you are probably dealing with a mundane concept.
Again, I highly recommend holding off on concepts until the mods figure out what they want to do.
Also, I havn't seen anywhere where it says we can perform magical or godly actions for free (like teleporting) so I will be spending AP on abilities and powers to justify certain godly feats - like gaining elemental mastery in order to teleport through the shadows.
I will wait until the mods post what assumed powers all gods have BEFORE they have purchased abilities, made decrees, and so on.
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Not that I think it'll impact this game overly much, I've found the following:
-The wiki stopped getting updated in November of 2012.
-The rule set itself has continued getting adjusted by the LoC team in This Thread over at GitP
-The most recent version of the rules (a pretty significant divergence from where they were when the wiki was last updated) can be found in this post.
I think, at this point, implementing the up-to-date rules would be like trying to convert a game from 2nd ed D&D to PF. It probably just wouldn't work.
Doing it while a game is running is even worse. Ultimately, the rules as posted in the wiki suck but they are all we have to go on until something is posted HERE that the mods can agree upon. The whole adage: "better something than nothing."
It's all we got so we might as well work with it.
Baxtra, I would rule that you don't know where the Forge is, nor be able to enter anyone's sanctum without their permission/for combat(more to come on this).
Unlike the rest of us, who have a way to know where it is, via it being located in the heart of our world, just like Veldrin's is on the Dead Isles.
I was purposefully using my shard to have him come out and meet you for the purposes of knowing where everyone was at and all the gods meeting up
I am working on some things with the mods on rules and a list of what dieties can do before spending points.
Understood
I made the assumption that unless there was a reason for them to be hidden that deities have a way to find each other. Since only Nunya had hidden herself I made the assumption the rest of us could sense or see or somehow be aware of the others. If not then the power Nunya took is kind of a waste of 5 AP. However even if that is the case the conversation would take place the first time they met whether the shard gets lost wandering the planet or not.
It is specifically stated that not everything a god does will alert another god to their presence. Simply existing is not a reason for them to show up on your godly radar. Usually they have to do something that directly affects you. If they are doing something that affects your domains/portfolios: for instance, Muthahd has both the domain of darkness and elemental mastery over it. If one of the other gods of darkness starts messing with the darkness domain or if any god messes with darkness or shadows in general, then he will be *aware* of it but not be able to specifically pinpoint the location, perpetrator, or means by which they are messing with said domain/element. The trick is that the players already know what is going on - the characters though are generally only aware of what their domains/portfolios cover. This is mainly because it is specifically mentioned that gods are NOT omniscient or omnipresent. You are NOT everywhere or all knowing. It wouldn't make sense for you to know exactly where other gods are or what other gods are doing. Otherwise it would be kinda pointless for you to interact with each other. IF you already know what the other person is doing... then why bother asking them anything or talking with them?
Okay, I agree about what they are doing but still think that the presence of another being of divine rank, especially as new to power as we are, would cause enough disturbance to be detected. But I accept the ruling and await more interaction
As a heads up, the person that maintains the wiki mentioned updating it to the ruleset as currently written. It may be prudent to archive what's there currently somewhere, even if it's here on the Campaign tab.
@Baxtra: I was actaully pretty unsure what Nunya's ability did when she bought it. (well, when I read that she bought it). I think the only thing it actually accomplishes is countering "Crystal Seer."
Also prevent's gods from Knowing what is effecting their creations. She could do something that effected my Llieldasine and I wouldn't know who did it as Allianda.
"2. Gods are not omniscient.
A deity is limited to what information they can gather through observation or intelligence, just as any powerful being. They are generally assumed to be able to be able find and observe anything on the Material that they wish, but they can still be surprised or caught unawares by things they aren’t paying attention to. A special note here is that things related to a god's domain allow them a vague and general sense of that element but not enough to gather specific details. "
" Gods do NOT know when another god uses their power unless the AP spent directly affects them or their creations. An exception to this rule is the Creation of a Plane, or a Cosmic Decree. Gods will automatically know when these happen."
"One with Shadows - You are a being of deceit, a God who's lot is to lie and deceive. Your actions are hidden from those who they don't affect. No God can automatically know about any AP you spend unless that AP affects them or their creations directly even then they won't know it was you who affected their creations, just that a god did. "
yeah, it pretty much is only a counter to "crystal seer" as written. Some of them are like that unfortunately. It does sorta imply that if one god were to affect another gods creation, then that god would be easily identifiable unless they had "one with shadows." however, the very first rules say you CANNOT affect other gods creations without their consent without getting into a god battle, so I am not sure what the point is... but that is the difference between players who can meta-game and characters who shouldn't.
I am working on looking through the rules and do some rewrites. For now spend AP as you want but the rules may change how it is spent.
My suggestion is put it here in discussion and when the rewrite is completed then you can reallocate points as needed.
Let's continue to roleplay while this is in the process of being fixed.
When rollover occurs Baxtra intends to create a separate but attached plane that any can enter but mortals only when sleeping or unconscious, called the Dreaming. She intends to use this as a laboratory to test her ideas without damaging creation further. She intends for the rules of the plane to be malleable to the consensus of the minds present and that no effect from the Dreaming carry over into the real world although ideas can as fuzzy, nebulous items, easily lost or misinterpreted.
I like it so far. What else can you say about the plane? Is it a psuedo real place that the person lives through as they dream (kinda like inception) or is it some strange fantastical place that any dreamer can shape at will or do whatever they wish in?
It is psuedo-real in that a being has to exert will to shape it or it will shape itself to the minds present on a subconscious level. But it also has fantastical elements should they be desired. However the Fantastical elements are going to be very weak as only one mind will usually be sustaining it.
These gods have officially left gameplay or been gone more than 3 weeks without word:
Hexad
Ohren
Mekkar
If a god leaves gameplay their creations and concepts are up for grab.
Concepts can be purchased by paying the cost for them.
The list of Concepts currently up for grabs:
Magical: Illusion Via Ohren
Races can be adopted for 2 AP. You can change a race slightly to show your influence of adopting them and making them your own. It will then be counted as your Race from then on out.
The list of Creations currently up for grabs:
Living Wisps Via Ohren
Continent Clouds Via Ohren, currently holding up the Islands of Auren
The Fair Folk Via Mekkar
Also, Forgot to mention. Tomorrow is Rollover at 0900 Central
Alright.
All new gods can travel. Fly, walk, swim, and climb anywhere they want. Also, you can teleport to any place you have been or seen. You cannot enter someone's sanctum, IF you find it and know where it is without first asking permission.
You can travel to other planes of existence if there are any.
The rules on concepts trump all other rules about how they apply to races.
There for you can only give your races concepts you control or have permission to use. You can fight another god to take a concept from them.
Remember the story is not just about you but also your races and how they interact with the other races on the world. I know we only have a couple but its a start.
Some concepts require certain things. Like the Concept Planar travel would require their be another plane. Astronomy would need starts. While most concepts are loose and you can create most with no trouble there are some that require certain items.
If you have a question about a concept post it here.
If you want to make a celestial body that is very significant but not inhabitable, like filling the sky with stars then it will cost 3 AP. If it is a "dead" Moon it would only cost 1 AP.
Twilsemail are you still wishing to play?
Original Gods You should have a total of 39 AP total Gained Tomorrow at 0900. Also, It is Week 6. To Ascend to the Next rank you need 2 more Domains and tomorrow I will post the AP Cost of gathering the power to go up a rank.
Awesome Sauce. I am planning on buying the magical concept: illusions for 3 AP. I am also planning on laying claim on the floating islands and thus need the Continent Clouds so I will be spending 2 AP for them.
For the Wisps though, I dont think that I should be taking the ENTIRE race. I will be spending the 2 AP to adopt them but I will be taking a chunk of them and converting them into a shadow race - literally a race of wisps that are a shadow of their former selves. If there is no interest in the wisps though, I will take them all. Just let me know who is interested in them.
Being that my god is literally the god of life from decay, I plan on looking very closely at ANY thing, be it concept or creature or location, that has languished and been left disused, eventually taking it and converting it into something new - hence his theme of recycle and rebirth.
Total cost in AP will be 7 AP leaving me with 13-7+4 (plus another 4 once this weeks rollover hits) = 10 (+4).
So, oddly, I didn't see any posts in here last night. Very strange, as I went out of my way to make sure I caught up on all my threads yesterday.
Anyways, Veldrin would also be interested in Illusion magick, although if its something Muthadh really wants, perhaps I will create an entire separate form of Shadow Magick. Such ties into Necromancy nicely.
Do we have anybody with Cold as their domain yet? That's another Veldrin would like. I have it as part of my portfolio, but I think I would like it as an actual Domain.
I wanted to ask if I can transfer my "written" Domain into Language since Mekkar has left. Just finish taking that.
No one has cold as far as I know.
Cold is not taken and I think would fit you well Veldrin.
That is good Muthadh. You and Veldrin can discuss the illusion magic.
@ Veldrin... if you like, you can have illusion magic. Im not TOO worried about it and we could always share it. We could also share it. It is only a magical concept.
As it is, Muthadh actually has the Darkness domain, so I can spend the AP to introduce the legendary concept of "Shadow Magic" so you dont have to spend the points for it.
Ultimately its up to you. Thematically though, I feel that in the hierarchy of things, Veldrin is sorta Muthadh's father while Aliandra is his mother. Even though he doesn't have the darkness domain, it would fit that Veldrin would introduce the legendary concept, while the "son" would introduce the lesser concept of say illusion (shadow) magic.
I dont know. Let me know if you would like to collaborate on it or if you prefer to have us do our own thing.
Either way it looks like the Wisps are free to take so I will be taking them all in a few days if interest in them remains low.
new total cost 5+2+2=9 AP
new remaining 13+4+4-9=12 AP