There's a lot of reasons someone might be too surprised to react properly. The game isn't trying to model them all. The meta-game just decides the basics of how your character reacts. It's up to you to decide and describe why.
I'm totally with you in terms of the initiative rules not handling two boxers in a ring who are aware of each other and ready to go. Neither of them should be flat footed, but one of them will be.
In this case, I think it's completely understandable for Leon to be briefly paralyzed with fright because of a giant charging deathless bear.
The rules aren't trying to treat combat realistically. Not even close. Think about it. When was the last time you thought "with a little more experience I could totally take that bear"?
The rules provide a framework for the narrative. They tell you the what, not the why. If you're fighting the rules, you're going to be frustrated a lot. If you get what they are trying to do you can bend them in really impressive ways. I don't mind being flat footed. It makes the story better.
We can change the rules if you wish.
We can state that no one is flat footed if you are aware of the enemy. This would also work for enemies as well though.
Anyone want to vote on this houserule?
I feel it's the way it is so people with high initiative modifiers benefit from going first. I say we keep it. D&D/Pathfinder was not, is not and never will be realistic in many ways. It works well the way it is.
I am making my own rules (more a collection of house-rules similar to how PF started only I added a bit of savage worlds to the mix), so I will simply add this to my list of clarifications, a short but important list.
I vote no. It's rarely problematic enough to matter.
Alright then, I won't push the matter further. We keep the rules as written.
Dex based characters have little enough going for them as is. No need to nerf one of their few advantages.
Forgive me if I don't see how a Dex based character would have trouble finding advantages.
And no, I don't mind sticking to RAW, for reasons other then the rules themselves though.
I'm a game rules orthodoxist (Is that a real word ?) !
It's a nice change from the rest of my life ;-p !
Let us stick to RAW (how am I supposed to learn the rules well enough to dare being a GM otherwise, he ? ;-) !
Also, on a totally unrelated tangent, here is a fantastic web comic: Girl Genius.
Okay, so everyone probably knew this one already (but in the off chance that it was not the case...).
Melée Dex characters have a hard time in Pathfinder. There's dozens of threads on the subject. (A couple site searches will turn up all kinds of opinions.) It's one of the primary reasons that monks and rogues are considered the weakest classes in the game. That doesn't mean they are unplayable or unfun, just that they have some mechanical problems that make them struggle to keep up as levels increase.
One of the things Dex characters can count on is a statistical probability of acting first, meaning their first attack is likely to hit since their opponents are usually flat footed. For rogues, this is absolutely vital.
I'm opposed to changing the rule because of that. It's not a great rule in a few niche cases, but it's pretty important to a few types of characters. I'd rather be hit by a bear than nerf fast people.
Rogues don't need to act first, they just need to flank and they get those extra dice.
Of course maybe I just don't rely on first round of combat enough to really want every advantage I can get, though my opinions tend to be based on my experiences rather then game balance.
I wasn't asking to change it either I am just dissapointed by the lack of attention and making new rules to support character types instead of adjusting classes to work well with as is rules.
Basing what you want the rules of a fantasy game to be like based on your own experience isnt going to make you a very happy gamer. There are games that do a good job emulating real world combat. Pathfinder isn't one of them. It isn't supposed to and isn't trying to. All systems have flaws. Sometimes those flaws actually add to the drama. (current situation, for example)
Mechanics in any game are basically there to provide a framework for dramatic action. Sometimes the percieved flaws are there specifically to ratchet up dramatic tension. Sure, maybe a guy like Leon wouldn't be "caught flat footed" if hecwas being charged by a bear from a signifigant distance. He might gave time to think. It's more interesting if we assume he's momentarily panicked and fumbling. In that case, the rule is great.
Silent Hill 1 and 2 are my favorite example of how bad mechanics can actually make a game better. The play controls are terrible. They are sluggish, frustrating and incredibly unrealistic.
They also make the game terrifying. When things jump out at you, you can't dodge. You can't shoot in the direction it's coming from. You are remotely controlling a sluggish, brain-dead automaton and hoping you can turn around fast enough that poor Harry doesn't get eaten. The poor controls ramp up the dramatic tension a lot.
No other survival horror games reach that same level of panic. Subsequent games are more realistic, and thus, less frightening. In making things "better" for an individual player, the entire game design suffers. The drama is reduced. Horror becomes action.
When I'm playing a farmer being charged by a dead bear, I like mechanics that support Horror. I try to come up with a response to the rolls that make them make sense in game. I don't say "these rolls create an unrealistic situation. I know that in real life, if I were being charged by a zombear, I'd have plenty of time to draw my weapon and get my feet under me."
The mechanics say I'm startled, so I'm startled, and from a story-perspective, that's a good thing.
What you fail to realize is that these characters don't start out badass, they start out like normal Joes. A Policeman from the real world would most likely be a third or fourth level fighter, but that's because he's gone through training and has learned a number of skills, most importantly to react to a dangerous situation.
In the real world at the moment you may in fact do better than your character, but thats because you've had that many years in the real world to gain experience and level up. By comparison these characters have existed for only a couple months, prior to adventuring we're assumed to have very little REAL experience, mostly training and stuff. We're becoming heroes.
Sooner or later we will outstrip the real world by and large but until then we're still learning.
Mostly a difference in play style, I don't like my dice to tell me about me but rather I say what I am doing and let the dice simply tell me whether I get the result I want. But that is play style, and rules will help some play styles and hinder others.
There is also a difference between having things abstracted to make gameplay simple, and simply denying the ability to act as one might in reality. The thing that seperates PnP from computer's is the ability to do anything.
I really didn't intend to start a conversion about it, I consider this a simple case of finding another rule that doesn't work well with my style, which is ok, just something to keep in mind in the future.
Forgot that I put a rank into all knowledge skills.
No, but whether they are or not, thats the idea running around Tim's head at the moment, at least until someone tells him otherwise or he gets to more closely look at it afterwards.
bear stuff
Leon has no idea, and as a player I was making assumptions until one of the smart folks corrected me. :)
Same here. Just assuming, as I don't have the knowledge skills.
A pot of honey and a picnic basket?
What you fail to realize is that these characters don't start out badass, they start out like normal Joes. A Policeman from the real world would most likely be a third or fourth level fighter, but that's because he's gone through training and has learned a number of skills, most importantly to react to a dangerous situation.
In the real world at the moment you may in fact do better than your character, but thats because you've had that many years in the real world to gain experience and level up. By comparison these characters have existed for only a couple months, prior to adventuring we're assumed to have very little REAL experience, mostly training and stuff. We're becoming heroes.
Sooner or later we will outstrip the real world by and large but until then we're still learning.
Sorry I didn't notice earlier, but third or fourth level is a high estimate, Einstein was at most a 5th level physicist. 1 out of ten people you know might be second level and you are lucky if you ever meet a third level person, only the very best in any field are fourth level and there might be one or two 5th level people on the planet at any one time.
That is going by the skills and their DCs, so the combat doesn't really match up.
So theoretically Tim is already my equal or at most one level behind.
By the way, you should begin planning your 3rd level advancements. As soon as this fight finishes and a little bit after you're hitting 3rd.
Groovy !
wow, we're just cruising right along, aren't we.
As I said, I want us to hit 5th as fast as possible.
Even though basically no time has passed in character it's been a long ass time in real life. So I'm nothing but happy about leveling quickly :)
What you fail to realize is that these characters don't start out badass, they start out like normal Joes. A Policeman from the real world would most likely be a third or fourth level fighter, but that's because he's gone through training and has learned a number of skills, most importantly to react to a dangerous situation.
In the real world at the moment you may in fact do better than your character, but thats because you've had that many years in the real world to gain experience and level up. By comparison these characters have existed for only a couple months, prior to adventuring we're assumed to have very little REAL experience, mostly training and stuff. We're becoming heroes.
Sooner or later we will outstrip the real world by and large but until then we're still learning.
Sorry I didn't notice earlier, but third or fourth level is a high estimate, Einstein was at most a 5th level physicist. 1 out of ten people you know might be second level and you are lucky if you ever meet a third level person, only the very best in any field are fourth level and there might be one or two 5th level people on the planet at any one time.
That is going by the skills and their DCs, so the combat doesn't really match up.
So theoretically Tim is already my equal or at most one level behind.
So are you saying you're one of those people you're lucky to meet in your lifetime? How good are you at hand to hand combat for real? This is what I've gathered
You > Your Character
Your Character = Almost Third Level
First I have never lost an unarmed combat match even against my military instructors, I am top percent of the race in terms of intelligence (though intuition and social ability are not entirely related. I have Aspergers if you want to take a look), so yes I am likely third level.
Second what I am saying is that combat vs real life progression doesn't match with the skills vs real life progression. (note the number's in 3rd ed were designed this way, 3.5 and PF have played with them a bit since, such as the long jump DCs)
Counting by skills, a fifth level person is almost a once in a lifetime thing, but with some combat abilities, real life can match or exceed those granted by the rules even at much higher levels, or sometimes those denied by the rules.
Of course reality has more consistency then a d20 roll, but I'm ignoring that aspect, kinda used to it by now.
Like this...
There are some really strange runes etched on that bear's tummy ^_^ ! Hilarious !
Oh good lord that bear is scary.
More than a week without a polite "I'm out of town" or something like that is pretty unacceptable to me.
Worse case, if he shows back up we can easily say that he was still under the wreckage. Hes a dwarf, hes used to being buried
Koldir hasn't posted in a month. It's my experience that if people go more than 7-8 days without chiming in that they aren't coming back and are too rude (or unable) to let the rest of the people in the game know. I say he died in the crash, or shortly thereafter.
Then we'll go with that. If one of you wishes, you may be the one to discover his remains within the wreckage.
I just PMed Koldir to ask him if he still wanted or was able to be a player in this game.
I'll yet you know his answer - so perhaps we could postpone the macabre wreckage's discovery by a day or two ?
I didn't intend to step on your toes, Matt, I just wanted to clear the matter with Koldir :-).
Nope that's perfectly fine, that'll make 2 PMS (I had also sent one)
Aaaaand.... Grailteam cave and Grailteam wreckage are back :-) and alive !
Damn, I love this game !
On the subject of gaming, as the best group of PbP I've had since starting (first and best!) a group of friends and I have begun writing our gift to the Pathfinder Community by writing and publishing our very own adventure. I've put up the post on the Homebrew messageboard and if anyone feels inclined to read and contribute to the subject, it'd be great!
As for our continued Campaign, as soon as everyone recovers from the attacks, it's level up time.
Regarding Knowledge rolls, Baster has currently only Knowledge (Nobility) +2, which means that, in other fields of knowing, he can't gain knowledge other than "common" (i.e, his rolls are capped at 10).
So he defers to more knowledgeable people than him.
Well, "defer" might not be the right word here ^_^. More that he demands what is his birthright to know (or that he should demand, but of late he's been more lax than usual with the commoners around him 8-).
But hey, since when has a noble needed anything else than Knowledge (Nobility) to strut along with superior airs ;-) ?
[joke]Medieval society is so deliciously unequal ![/joke]
Sorry I didn't post yesterday. My wife and I were getting things and setting up curtains in our new house. Was real busy.
Woohoo! Level 3!
The Good is moderate in this one :P
+1 Base Ref Save
+1 Base Fort Save
+7 Skill Points (Diplomacy, Kn (Arcana) (2), Spellcraft, Profession (Hedgewitch), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device)
Favored Class (Witch) +1 HP
PFS Hitpoints
Feat: Extra Hex
Special Qualities
Flight Hex
Spells
Cure Moderate Wounds
Vomit Swarm
Was anyone going to go item crafter?
** spoiler omitted **
Was anyone going to go item crafter?
Not me !
Yes, that's a lame joke ^_^. But the world needs them, to counterbalance the good jokes (I have a theory on cosmic counterpoint, but I will spare you ;-)
In a totally unrelated topic, I haven't received any reply from Koldir since I PMed him last sunday, so we can assume he won't play again in this game.
Regarding the game thread, Matt: Jevon, Leylyn and Baster are definitely plodding through the forest to get back at the encampment.
And level 3 ! Yeah !
Agreed, we're headed back. Level three advancement will come soon. Woohoo!
** spoiler omitted **
Was anyone going to go item crafter?
Oh god, Aldus was creepy enough without Vomit Swarm. I wonder how that one's going to look.
Ultimate Equipment now purchased. Prepare to find some new gear my friends.