Is the butchering axe "overpowered"?

Hello,

I used to be strongly in the bracket of "exotic weapon proficiency is very rarely worth it", but then this happened:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/axe-butcheri ng/

Essentially, for the price of a feat (it does not have the name orc in it, therefor I dont see a way around paying the feat tax RAW) you do get +1D6 in terms of damage over a greatsword. The S19 requirement is a problem at low levels, but martials can just start with 18 Strength, and use either rage/bloodrage or have enlarge person cast on them.
Assuming a 20+ point buy, Str 19 can also be straight aquired at start, esepcially for a barbarian.

What is your verdict on it, cheese? Reasonable optimization?

My issue with it is that it seems to offer a far stronger boost (perhaps more accurately discribed as a strong boost that will always come into play), compare to the benefits that other exotic weapons offer when compared to their martial next of kins.

For a feat you get on the average an additional 3.5 points of damage with a rare weapon that does not scale up as you level up. Compare that to Power attack where you gain +3 damage for every 4 BAB when using a two handed weapon. Power Attack does give you a penalty to hit, but can be used with any melee weapon including unarmed strikes and improvised weapons. The chance of finding a magical butchering axe is pretty slim so if you are going to be using it you will probably have to have one specifically enchanted.

The fact that it cost a feat to be able to use effectively makes it under powered if anything. A feat is a valuable asset that can in the right circumstances give your character a big advantage. Humans are considered one of the most powerful races mainly because of the extra feat at 1st level.

At high level most of the damage comes from static bonuses not the weapon damage. As you said the 19 STR requirement is mostly at lower levels, so by the time that is no longer an issue the extra damage is not as important. A full Orc may be able to take advantage of it at first level, but most other characters are going to get hit with the -2 penalty to hit. Taking a -2 on all mental stats is a high price to pay for an extra 1d6 of damage.

Compared to an elven curve blade the butchering axe is way less effective. A two handed finesse weapon that has a crit range of 18-20 and does 1d10 points of damage, and you get a +2 CMD vs sunder is a lot better than doing 3d6 points of damage with a 19 STR requirement.

It is the vitalstrike featchain and enlargement that makes Butchering axe strong.

Proper link to the weapon.

Overpowered compared to what?

In my experience based on DPR comparison between sample character builds, while the butchering axe is good on classes with bonus feats (e.g. Avenger Vigilante), the power of Improved Critical makes a nodachi stronger for when the amount of feats you want to invest into damage is limited, e.g. Barbarian.
So it's not stronger than other options for classes without bonus feats (at least not at mid-levels, and you use it pre-4th level without over-investing into strength). It's bad for Monk, Brawler, dex-based classes (Rogue, Swashbuckler), or builds that need one-handed weapons (e.g. Magus). There is no deity that has it as a favored weapon, making it weaker for Warpriest, Inquisitor, and Cleric. You can't get pounce with it via feat (unlike for unarmed strikes and natural weapons).

So, with all the above, who is it good for? Avenger Vigilante, Fighter, Ranger, Slayer, non-mounted Cavalier/Samurai? Those aren't really the cream of the crop of melee builds. Do people even play Ranger and Slayer as ordinary two-handed melee builds?
It's good on Avenger and Viking Fighter, but the lack of magical stuff hampers both.

It is the vitalstrike featchain and enlargement that makes Butchering axe strong.

It's the weakness of the Vital Strike chain that stops it from being too strong.

There are a few class archetypes, and an elf alternative racial trait, that let you select a single exotic weapon to be proficient with. Which means if you are planning a melee strength character you might as well take the butchering axe in a lot of builds.

It is the vitalstrike featchain and enlargement that makes Butchering axe strong.

This is the build that really wants the butchering axe. For an enlarged Titan Fighter vital striking with an impact weapon, the butchering axe is way better than alternatives.

It's a two-handed weapon, so feats aren't really an issue compared to other fighting styles. Abyssal bloodrager quickly solves a number of issues. I cheesed in a level of hunter to be able to lead blades myself and 1 round buff to kick open the door and DPR very effectively. Having played him up through 9th level his DPR has been about the strongest I've consistently seen across low to mid level. Archer builds are starting to catch-up. Because the feats aren't that critical I recently added vital strike as a purely tactical option. It does happen often enough in a short combat that one has to move and strike. Broken? well that is subjective, as my defenses aren't amazing (and most builds for the butchering axe are going to have some holes), but I have 1 shot a number of bosses without needing to crit at lower levels and the DPR tends to dominate. I certainly rank it as among the most powerful of combat options. Certainly with the low feat investment you could also go the sunder build, gate breaker options at mid levels once you can afford the adamantine butchering axe and you almost certainly keep nuking encounters for a long time.

No it's not.

The character concept I am using the math for is an Abyssal Bloodrager, who may well be the third best character after Titan fighter for it, due to auto enlarge while raging (although probably below abberant, as abberant gets free reach and extra reach is harder to get then enlarge).

The big selling point for me is perhaps more "semi reach weapon" specific. Auto enlarge + longarm bracers means 15 feet reach, means I can vital strike (or just basic hit) a dangerous enemy at 15 feet, and not eat his retributive full attack because of 15 feet distance, and probably hit him with an AoO, and then vital strike him again in my turn, and then, depending on my assessment of his abilities, move action 15 foot away to deny him a full attack again while putting him under threat.

Essentially I would be trading Vital Strike + AoO with a Butchering axe vs his standard attack in the first turn, and then trade Vital Strike + AoO vs. 2 attacks at max Bab from the enemy in the following turns, I think this rate would massively favor me in most CR appropriate encounters.

I am aware that weapon dice matter less in high level, but 6D6 (enlarged impact) is still plenty. And I dont see why one would have much less modifiers on it then on a greatsword.

The char is not "primarily" a vital strike, he is a reach attacker that also vital strikes if that clarification makes sense.

Oh, I am using it in an Elephant in the room game, I think that this changes things because burning a feat for it becomes a reasonable options for Barbs/Bloodragers.

Going from Martial to Exotic usually results in the new weapon increasing its critical range (or multiplier) by 1, or that its dmg dice improves by one step on the Damage Dice Progression Chart. The Butchering Axe does actually break these guidelines when it improves by two steps on the progression chart compared to the Greatsword, Earthbreaker, and Greataxe. (1d12/2d6 -> 2d8 -> 3d6)

So yes, it is technically "overpowered". To be in line with similar content it should either have been a 2d8 /x3 weapon or 3d6 /x2 instead of being 3d6 /x3.

There are a few class archetypes, and an elf alternative racial trait, that let you select a single exotic weapon to be proficient with. Which means if you are planning a melee strength character you might as well take the butchering axe in a lot of builds.

Those archetypes tend to have some downside, and the half-elf racial trait competes with one that grants +2 to will saves (something of more use to many a martial than more damage).

I have 1 shot a number of bosses without needing to crit at lower levels

I don't see how, unless you meant with a single full attack. The number doesn't work out for a single attack, with or without Vital Strike.

Going from Martial to Exotic usually results in the new weapon increasing its critical range (or multiplier) by 1, or that its dmg dice improves by one step on the Damage Dice Progression Chart. The Butchering Axe does actually break these guidelines when it improves by two steps on the progression chart compared to the Greatsword, Earthbreaker, and Greataxe. (1d12/2d6 -> 2d8 -> 3d6)

So yes, it is technically "overpowered". To be in line with similar content it should either have been a 2d8 /x3 weapon or 3d6 /x2 instead of being 3d6 /x3.

Not really… most exotic weapons only increase by one step because the original damage die size is 1d6 or less. Most examples of exotic versions of weapons that use larger damage dice either increase crit range or multiplier or add additional functionality. The butchering axe like all other exotic weapons increases its damage dive by one SIZE not one STEP. Because the greataxe (and the non-exotic base for the butchering axe) deals 2d6 damage one damage size increase is two steps.

So yes, it is technically "overpowered". To be in line with similar content it should either have been a 2d8 /x3 weapon or 3d6 /x2 instead of being 3d6 /x3.

That is my view as well. It is overpowered in the sense that it is outside the boundaries of comparable items. That doesn't mean that it's overpowered in the sense that it would break your game.

Not really… most exotic weapons only increase by one step because the original damage die size is 1d6 or less. Most examples of exotic versions of weapons that use larger damage dice either increase crit range or multiplier or add additional functionality. The butchering axe like all other exotic weapons increases its damage dive by one SIZE not one STEP. Because the greataxe (and the non-exotic base for the butchering axe) deals 2d6 damage one damage size increase is two steps.

There's actually only two other weapons that do so, and no other two-handed weapons afaik. It is definitely not the norm. Looking at the exotic reach two-handers (without a gimmick) we see the Fauchard, Dwarven Giant-sticker, Dwarven Longaxe, and Dwarven Longhammer.

There doesn't exist a 18-20 martial reach weapon so we can't compare the Fauchard with another weapon's dmg dice. But the dwarven weapons have comparable martial weapons.

And all five x4 martial two-handers either deal d8 or 2d4 dmg. The only x4 exotic two-hander with a higher dmg dice than that is the Tetsubo with 1d10.

One step, not one size.

No. Attacking with weapons to do damage is never overpowered.

When you Lead blades and enlarge, you can definitely hit 30+ damage on a single hit by 3rd level. This was hand waved in an older thread on this by some, but since I've done it in actual play with published material it's not abstract. There's a bit of a donut hole after that 3-4th level range before routine haste, or iteratives come online as HP rise. It falls off again and now I generally need a crit to 1 round a boss, which isn't different now than a number of other high DPR builds.

No. Attacking with weapons to do damage is never overpowered.

I disagree with this. Especially when you have teammates. One solid hit from a high damage martial can end an enemy caster. Especially in APs.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

No. Attacking with weapons to do damage is never overpowered.

I disagree with this. Especially when you have teammates. One solid hit from a high damage martial can end an enemy caster. Especially in APs.

Yes, optimized martials can have their heyday in AP's [as-written].

Weapons comparisons

I think your argument may suffer because martial weapons are weird.

Wonderstell wrote:

Weapons comparisons

I think your argument may suffer because martial weapons are weird.

Is there ever a reason to take a Bec de Corbin over a Lucerne Hammer?

Certainly. The Lucerne Hammer has a better dmg dice (1d12 vs 1d10) in return for a worse crit profile (x2 vs x3). Personally I value the better crit more than +1 avg dmg so I would choose the Bec de Corbin.

There's also some better comparisons to be made for one-handers. The following weapons have the exact same properties (except weight) and their exotic counterparts have increased their dmg dice by one step and not one size.

Longsword (1d8) -> Bastard Sword (1d10)
Battleaxe (1d8) -> Dwarven Waraxe (1d10)
Terbutje (1d8) -> Great Terbutje (1d10)

PossibleCabbage wrote:

No. Attacking with weapons to do damage is never overpowered.

I disagree with this. Especially when you have teammates. One solid hit from a high damage martial can end an enemy caster. Especially in APs.

When your martials are teleporting around the map killing multiple opponents before they get the chance to react, the casters become redundant.

No. Attacking with weapons to do damage is never overpowered.

I don't think you know what the word "overpowered" means. Power level is relative per definition, which not only means that martials can be overpowered compared to other martials, but also that martials can be overpowered compared to the expected power level for martials in a campaign.

The question as ask in the thread title cannot possibly have a yes-or-no-answer. It can only have an answer for comparison with something, or under specific circumstances. Thus the nature of the concept of power level.

Is there ever a reason to take a Bec de Corbin over a Lucerne Hammer?

At above 15 critable bonus damage, Bec de Corbin has a higher average damage.

The following weapons have the exact same properties (except weight) and their exotic counterparts have increased their dmg dice by one step and not one size.

Longsword (1d8) -> Bastard Sword (1d10)
Battleaxe (1d8) -> Dwarven Waraxe (1d10)
Terbutje (1d8) -> Great Terbutje (1d10)

All three of those have the "can be used two-handed as a martial weapon" special feature - which seems to cost a step in damage dice.

Didn't really answer the question in my first post, so. . . The question is always "what's right for my particular group?" But in general, the way I examine an option when determining if it is appropriate to allow in a campaign is:

If there is an existing effective* build for which the new option is a "no-brainer" pick then it is probably too powerful.

In the case of the Butchering Axe that existing build is a Vital Striker, or any build stacking multiple size increases/effective size increases. The increased damage dice of the Butchering Axe is simply better than any other option. So I do believe it is too powerful.

*And please, please, be rational when considering the term "effective." Just because a build isn't "the best" or "can't end a fight in one round" that doesn't mean it isn't effective in a typical campaign.

Didn't really answer the question in my first post, so. . . The question is always "what's right for my particular group?" But in general, the way I examine an option when determining if it is appropriate to allow in a campaign is:

If there is an existing effective* build for which the new option is a "no-brainer" pick then it is probably too powerful.

In the case of the Butchering Axe that existing build is a Vital Striker, or any build stacking multiple size increases/effective size increases. The increased damage dice of the Butchering Axe is simply better than any other option. So I do believe it is too powerful.

*And please, please, be rational when considering the term "effective." Just because a build isn't "the best" or "can't end a fight in one round" that doesn't mean it isn't effective in a typical campaign.

The Butchering Axe's effectiveness does not make it an overshadowing "no-brainer" choice... not even for a Vital Strike build. I am not the only one that heavily considers the Greatsword to be the "no-brainer" choice simply because Gorum's Swordmanship opens up Vital Strike on a charge, which can be combined with Rhino Charge to break action economy. There are other considerations, even in the type of niche builds where a Butchering Axe could be effective.

Regardless of whether or not the Butchering Axe follows some unspoken rules for building exotic weapons... I don't see it pop up enough in actual play or posted builds to ever call it overpowered. It has very little support outside of your normal martial shenanigans... like increasing one's size. In fact, I often equip NPC enemies with Butchering Axes that have the necessary Ioun Stone socketed into the weapon itself... there's the weapon and proficiency with it, right there. I have never had a player to suddenly start using Butchering Axes.

Chell Raighn wrote:

Not really… most exotic weapons only increase by one step because the original damage die size is 1d6 or less. Most examples of exotic versions of weapons that use larger damage dice either increase crit range or multiplier or add additional functionality. The butchering axe like all other exotic weapons increases its damage dive by one SIZE not one STEP. Because the greataxe (and the non-exotic base for the butchering axe) deals 2d6 damage one damage size increase is two steps.

There's actually only two other weapons that do so, and no other two-handed weapons afaik. It is definitely not the norm. Looking at the exotic reach two-handers (without a gimmick) we see the Fauchard, Dwarven Giant-sticker, Dwarven Longaxe, and Dwarven Longhammer.

There doesn't exist a 18-20 martial reach weapon so we can't compare the Fauchard with another weapon's dmg dice. But the dwarven weapons have comparable martial weapons.

** spoiler omitted **

And all five x4 martial two-handers either deal d8 or 2d4 dmg. The only x4 exotic two-hander with a higher dmg dice than that is the Tetsubo with 1d10.

One step, not one size.

When you compare the wrong weapons sure... it comes out looking like it's just one step on the chart instead of one size step on the chart. But lets try looking at the proper weapon comparisons shall we? And do note, I had stated that they EITHER increase in damage size OR increase in crit range OR multiplier ORadd additional functions... So read my previous post in full context. If the damage size increases it follows the same rules for increasing the size of the weapon. Not all exotic weapons have increased damage over their non-exotic counterparts. Lets take a look at the same exotic weapons you compared and their proper non-exotic counterparts shall we?

Didn't really answer the question in my first post, so. . . The question is always "what's right for my particular group?" But in general, the way I examine an option when determining if it is appropriate to allow in a campaign is:

If there is an existing effective* build for which the new option is a "no-brainer" pick then it is probably too powerful.

In the case of the Butchering Axe that existing build is a Vital Striker, or any build stacking multiple size increases/effective size increases. The increased damage dice of the Butchering Axe is simply better than any other option. So I do believe it is too powerful.

*And please, please, be rational when considering the term "effective." Just because a build isn't "the best" or "can't end a fight in one round" that doesn't mean it isn't effective in a typical campaign.

I would argue sinking atleast 3 feats and potentially a 4th for Exotic Weapon Proficiency, dealing excellent damage as a standard action is not only reasonable, but should be considered what Martial Feats/options should be if they are not simply designed from the ground up to be scaling ala Power Attack.

I am firmly in the "This is not even remotely overpowered" camp.

When you compare the wrong weapons sure...

They had the most similar profiles to the very small sample of non-gimmicky exotic two-handers we have available. That's why I choose them. We have both said that going from martial to exotic can improve different properties of the weapon. That you instead choose to compare other properties than dmg dice does not invalidate my dmg dice comparison.

Frankly, you weaken your own position by showing that one step of dmg dice is apparently equal in value to improving Crit Multiplier or granting it Reach. In the mind of whoever designed those weapons.

But we've run out of exotic weapons to compare. And we can't decide on what martial weapons to compare with. I don't think we'll get much further.

There is a big difference between being overpowered and being powerful. Something is overpowered when it unbalances the game and creates problems for the GM. To me something is overpowered when no other build can equal or exceed the damage of the build. While a vital striking abyssal bloodrager can get deal a lot of damage they are not doing more damage than anything else. A 11th level abyssal bloodrager with a 20 STR and improved vital strike will get a single attack doing 12d6 +22 with an ordinary butchering axe with power attack. That works out to be about 63 points of damage.

An 11th level cavalier can do 3d8 +81 points of damage with a lance charge. The cavalier has the same base STR as the bloodrager before bloodrage is factored in. He also has mounted combat, power attack and spirited is using challenge. If he has not issued a challenge his damage drops to 3d8 +48 which works out to 62 points of damage.

A 11th level half orc ranger with a 14 STR and 18 DEX using a Orc Hornbow will be doing 3d6 +15 per shot with gravity bow, and be getting 4 shots (with the first hitting twice due to Many Shot) vs his strongest favored enemy. The ranger has a better chance to hit will all but the very last shot than the bloodrager does with vital strike. So assuming that the first 3 shots hit that is going to be 102 points of damage. Without gravity bow that drops down to 88 points of damage. Leaving out the favored enemy brings the damage down to 2d6+9 for an average of 64 points of damage. Clusted Shot will reduce the impact that DR will have on the multiple shots so that is not a factor.

Both the cavalier and the ranger are able to do a lot more damage than the bloodrager when utilizing their full potential, and can match him within a point or two without expending any resources. The ranger also has the advantage that he can also attack multiple lesser targets without reducing his damage. If the cavalier picks up spirtited charge he can also attack another target in the same round.

The last thing people are ignoring is the law of averages. When people see large number of dice they immediately think of the damage as being the maximum that can be rolled. The truth is that when rolling large numbers of dice you almost never roll above the average. The more dice you roll the more likely you are to roll average.

So the butchering axe while powerful it is not so not overpowered.

I suspect the biggest reason the butchering axe didn't become a power gaming staple is that it came so late in the 1E run with an assist that it is only PFS legal through a boon. I tend to think of overpowered more in terms of both a combination of theory and in play experience. RAW DPR is a tool, but the actual game causes a wide variety of situations. The strength of the butchers axe is it's very low opportunity cost to increase DPR for a wide variety of classes. There are many ways to get the 19 STR requirement, after that it is a single feat. Because of the low cost it comes online much earlier than an archer. Archer's of course can still contribute, but that spike in DPR doesn't come until later. A wide variety of races can be built with a number of classes (not all pure martial) to effectively use the axe. It's also not hard to wait out a few early levels using a greatsword or great axe as the primary weapon if you opt to wait until a STR belt or stat boosts get you there. That early access is a pretty big deal in most campaigns. My experience with high level play is that damage is less of an issue. In the sense that at that point there are many paths to cranking out damage to quickly end encounters.

Thanks, I must say there where some really quality posts here!

Learned a lot from this thread!

Generally speaking it is not OP.
But from BAB 1 to BAB 3, as long as you were already getting a +5 to Strenght (something I usually do) and if you already had a combat feat waiting for its purpose (like playing a fighter), then it is definitely worth it.

If you are into giant weapons it is the best, one step ahead from the next best options (medium sized Bastard sword, 2d8) and two steps ahead from most (greatsword, 2d6, a medium sized dagger, 2d6, etc.).

If we are talking about weapons in general then I would put it at the same place as the best of them, not above (it´s crit is second level and you need a feat).

Tax-wise however, and if you are using it for damage, it is better than power attack until BAB 12. I usually consider Power attack as the basic standard of a good combat feat.
+1 to hit is more or less equal than +2 to damage. This thinking that you are hitting half of the time (rolling an average 10.5 in your d20). If you are hitting nothing then the +1 to hit is stronger, if you are hitting with a 2 in your d20, the damage is more important.
That means power attack two-handling a weapon gives you a net profit of +1 to damage +1 per 4 BAB until you are BAB 20 and get +6 to damage,but with all seriousness, the further you advance the easier it gets to hit with your first attack so it would be a bit more in late game.
In conparison, the one feat invested in getting your scary axe nets you an astounding +3.5 of average damage at level 1 with no to hit penalty, making it absolutely better than power attack from BAB 1 to 3, better from levels 4 to 7 and probably still more worth it but it depends of your campaign and character from 8 to 11. Anyway is better than greater weapon specialization.

Pumping your size to destroy everything:
- Titan fighter (horrible archetype)
- Bigger race allowed (probably a medium one)
- Enlarge person permanent (yay, now you are Large)
- Buy a huge axe
- Get impact on your axe
- Your axe deals 8d6, an average of 28. Probably not worth the s!~~ty archetype.
- Get the full line of vital strike. Now it is 32d6 or 112 of average damage at level 16.

Does it fare well?
Full attacking is still better as long as you get 3 hits in. Let´s assume you are hasted thanks to your boots of speed at every turn by level 16. So hitting thrice should not be difficult.
Obviously that move action that vital strike saves you is a great asset against squishy enemies or enemies that move around or if you got the ability to drink potions as a move action as well, etc.

Still, if you are not taking that s$#~ty archetype you can still get to 6d6 which is pretty nice and that one feat would have net you 7 points of average damage in conparison to the same build with a gratsword.

Arise chicken arise, O necromancers they do call.

sidenote in general. Samurai with their movement vital strike is pretty fun~