Suggestion: Magic Weapon Damage

Lets talk Magic Weapons. I suggest removing the damage increase from magic weapons and making that damage increase inherent to leveling.

Magic weapons are the primary mechanism for balancing martial damage throughout the levels. The inbuilt assumptions are roughly earning or crafting +1/2/3/4/5 weapons at levels 4/8/12/16/20th. This pretty closely tracks with monster damage increases.

Casters already have built in damage scaling in the form of cantrips, and their spells in general scale damage over the levels.

Why is the damage increase tied to magic weapons? Why can't it be in innate aspect of leveling? Why do caster's at will damage scale with their level, but martial's don't? My suggestion is that melee weapon damage increases by one die at levels 4/8/12/16/20. Doesn't matter if the weapon is mundane or magical, at 4th level the fighter or wizard or cleric deal 2dX when the make a melee strike.

What about magic weapons? Now they're just +X? Well, yes. This does rob some of the thunder of the magic items, but because of how the game is balanced having a +1/2/3/4/5 to hit is very significant. Now, a character could get an Expert, or Master, or Legendary mundane weapon to get +1/2/3, but magic weapons are straight up better. You get them quicker and they can have additional runes for other magical effects.

I see this as a good balancing mechanism, it ensures that as characters level they have some kind of relevant competency in melee. So a character without their magic sword still does level expected damage, it just gets harder for them to hit. When the Wizard finds himself in a pickle and risks swinging his staff, he still does level appropriate damage. But, thanks to his poor proficiency, likely lack of powerful magic weapon, and poor strength he really isn't good at it.

We don't need to rely on downtime as soon as we hit the proper level to upgrade every magic item, it can happen more organically. Losing an item doesn't gimp a martial. A stingy DM doesn't break the game. Even improvised weapons remain have the right amount of punch throughout the game.

It isn't the sword that deals the damage, it is the person wielding it. A level 20 fighter holding a mundane longsword should be dealing more damage per swing than a tenth level fighter with a +2 longsword.

What does everyone think about that?

Players like the ability to spend money to improve their character, magic weapons are one of their choices. Sorry but I don't see them adopting a change like this, new loot should always be something players want to acquire.

Players like the ability to spend money to improve their character, magic weapons are one of their choices. Sorry but I don't see them adopting a change like this, new loot should always be something players want to acquire.

They will still do that for potency bonuses to hit and property runes. That is still spending money to improve their characters buy buying and upgrading magic weapons. Players will still want to acquire new loot.

I’ve been having a discussion in the Discord in relation to a possible ‘weapon damage tied to proficiency’ variant. You might want to join us :) but yes, in general, having so much of your damage rely on the weapon doesn’t feel very good - there is something innately epic about the feel of a fighter who can just grab a sword off a rack and turn it into a weapon of mighty destruction.

I’ve been having a discussion in the Discord in relation to a possible ‘weapon damage tied to proficiency’ variant. You might want to join us :) but yes, in general, having so much of your damage rely on the weapon doesn’t feel very good - there is something innately epic about the feel of a fighter who can just grab a sword off a rack and turn it into a weapon of mighty destruction.

Hmmm... I wouldn't tie it to proficiency, I'd tie it to character level. The disparity in when classes can improve their proficiency is too great, compare Fighter to Barbarian to Caster.

I see it that the extra damage is a main scaling mechanic... that is not the horrible +1/level. The damage scaling is required to be able to significantly hurt expected competition. Caster's cantrips scale automatically, the higher level spells are a form of damage scaling that works etc, why not weapons?

I completely agree, it should be the fighter who is the engine of destruction, not his sword. Call me crazy, but a lvl 15 fighter with a legendary mundane weapon should be able to outfight a wizard holding a +3 sword. The damage increase should be innate to higher level characters and not tied to the weapon.

There would be a couple things that would need to be adjusted after that, for example the magic weapon spell or magical striker. The fix is simple and general, you add an additional weapon dice. No change in play for magical striker, makes magic weapon usable beyond level 4.

Players like the ability to spend money to improve their character, magic weapons are one of their choices. Sorry but I don't see them adopting a change like this, new loot should always be something players want to acquire.

They could always change the effects of magic weapons to something else. The old static bonus damage, maybe, or perhaps something more interesting.

Weapon damage boosts are at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20.
Characters get their proficiency increases at lv3 and 13 in most cases (palain is 2 levels behind).
With a minor adjustment to Barbarian and Cleric, you can readjust potency to make it work as a hybrid system that uses damage increase from a mix of skill and magic.

Weapon damage boosts are at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20.

Characters get their proficiency increases at lv3 and 13 in most cases (palain is 2 levels behind).
With a minor adjustment to Barbarian and Cleric, you can readjust potency to make it work as a hybrid system that uses damage increase from a mix of skill and magic.

Ok, so you pulled the damage boost out of magic weapons to be at 4/8/12/16/20, which is what I also suggest.

I'm not really understanding what you're talking about here. You are shuffling around proficiency? How is that hybrid? Or are some of those damage boosts at 4/8/12/16/20 not coming automatically and reliant on proficiency?

Weapon damage can be:

+1 die at 5th level
+2 dice at 9th lvl
+3 dice at 13th lvl
+4 dice at 17th lvl
Or add +1 damage per level to weapon attacks.

magic weapons can deal +1d6 damage extra per category.

Weapon damage can be:

+1 die at 5th level
+2 dice at 9th lvl
+3 dice at 13th lvl
+4 dice at 17th lvl
Or add +1 damage per level to weapon attacks.

magic weapons can deal +1d6 damage extra per category.

If you are going that route I kind of like extra die at 5/10/15/20 and an extra die for any magic weapon.

If anyone is interested, I'm running a play by post arena. Essentially its running a pair of level 4 characters through an arena of varied challenges. I'm offering it Bound and Unbound. Good place to learn P2 and show some of the bound/unbound stuff.

Here is the thread where I explain it better.

Planning on running it on another forum because that's the one I'm familiar with. Want to compare character in bound/unbound or try out concepts or just play some P2, come and give the Arena a go.

The only other change is that in the bound variation I'm using the extra die at 4/8/12/16/20, so any weapon a character caries, not just their free magic weapon, will grant another dice.

I think the biggest issue with basing damage off of level instead of equipment is that it inhibits player choice. As it stands, a player could choose to upgrade a weapon sooner, perhaps sacrificing defense for the sake of damage. Conversely, someone else might opt to bolster their AC, or acquire more "miscellaneous" sorts of items. If you tie damage to level, it remove the option to focus on damage with gear purchases, locking you into a specific progression you can't escape from.

I don't much care for decentralizing equipment as a focus. If you look back at old Final Fantasy games, or at the Super Robot War series (the first RPG experiences I had), your equipment upgrades are very important, and are mainly purchased, rather than looted.

As such, for me, I have always preferred systems (tabletop and electronic) where the quality of gear you can acquire is a major aspect of advancement, and most of the gear (with the exception of unique items) can all be purchased in some way. I don't want to move too far from that shop-based system. I like to crack open all the item books, browse through what I can afford, and buy or build that item.

I think the biggest issue with basing damage off of level instead of equipment is that it inhibits player choice. As it stands, a player could choose to upgrade a weapon sooner, perhaps sacrificing defense for the sake of damage. Conversely, someone else might opt to bolster their AC, or acquire more "miscellaneous" sorts of items. If you tie damage to level, it remove the option to focus on damage with gear purchases, locking you into a specific progression you can't escape from.

I don't much care for decentralizing equipment as a focus. If you look back at old Final Fantasy games, or at the Super Robot War series (the first RPG experiences I had), your equipment upgrades are very important, and are mainly purchased, rather than looted.

As such, for me, I have always preferred systems (tabletop and electronic) where the quality of gear you can acquire is a major aspect of advancement, and most of the gear (with the exception of unique items) can all be purchased in some way. I don't want to move too far from that shop-based system. I like to crack open all the item books, browse through what I can afford, and buy or build that item.

Hmm, I see it differently. I see it as giving players more choice. For example, a fighter really needs to try and keep up with the jones with their magical weapons. Without the added damage dice they really begin to fall behind the game as it was designed. There really is a limited wealth by level and the fighter is forced to tie up a large amount of that in their weapon. This means they neglect other fighting styles, backup weapons etc. There is no use to a legendary sword except to enchant it, and enchant it with the best modifer you can.

Now, with this change you have more viable options. The additional bonuses to hit are still very important and have a significant affect on your damage output. Do you make your biggest investment grabbing that +4 sword asap, or do you settle with the legendary +1 sword you stuck runes into and then spent the rest of the difference picking up other items, maybe a secondary +3 bow to keep you competent at range. Now I see characters carrying a couple of different kinds of weapons that would be viable. A character could opt for a couple +3 swords with different enhancements instead of pumping it all into that one +4 sword. Their damage output would be slightly lower, but they would have a lot of versatility. I see that as empowering player choice.

You see the current iteration as forcing very tough choices, I do not see a whole lot of choice. You need damage, getting another +1 to hit and extra die of damage is an extremely high opportunity cost to pass up and I expect the majority of players to be really pushing for that maxed magical weapon the first level its available.

I like a lot of this. Three features of the current treatment of magical weapons I’m not crazy about are:

1. It would be nice to not have so much hang on what kind of magic weapon you have. (A 20th lvl fighter with a non magical sword should be able to put up a fight against a 15th level fighter with a +5 sword.)

2. The “+x” style magical weapons don’t feel very magical. Weapons that feel magical are weapons that can do magical things (e.g., burst into flame, or turn you invisible).

3. I face imaginative resistance thinking of magic abilities being runes you can just transfer from weapon to weapon in a free afternoon. It doesn’t fit the picture of magical weapons in most fantasy literature.

Given this, I’d be inclined to adopt something like your proposal, but tweaked to more closely fit the automatic bonus progression approach described in Pathfinder Unchained. I.e.:

1. At levels 4,8,12,16 and 20, increase the number of damage dice you do by one, and gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with weapons.

2. Weapon property runes cannot be moved.

So magic weapons are just weapons with weapon properties runes. And the raw numbers advancements are all rolled into level advancements.

Ediwir wrote:

Weapon damage boosts are at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20.

Characters get their proficiency increases at lv3 and 13 in most cases (palain is 2 levels behind).
With a minor adjustment to Barbarian and Cleric, you can readjust potency to make it work as a hybrid system that uses damage increase from a mix of skill and magic.

Ok, so you pulled the damage boost out of magic weapons to be at 4/8/12/16/20, which is what I also suggest.

I'm not really understanding what you're talking about here. You are shuffling around proficiency? How is that hybrid? Or are some of those damage boosts at 4/8/12/16/20 not coming automatically and reliant on proficiency?

I mean, instead of having it level-based, you can have sone damage dice coming from proficiency and some coming from magic weapon. Have weapons fill the boosts from item level 8, 16 and 20, while proficiency fills the 3/13 (before 4/12) areas. The result is that picking up a nonmagical weapon is not as good, but still viable.