How would you make an archetype? Gun Wielding Magus that works?

Reading some of the forums, and having inklings of playing a Gun Magus... i wonder how to create/get someone to create.... HINT HINT PATHFINDER!!
a working Gun Magus.

Limiting to one handed guns makes sense, using your spellstrike to cast TOUCH spells thru the gun, using arcane pool to enhance the gun... etc.

so here's some ideas to go with, and remember we are creating an archetype that is usable and not overboard.... that said here's some things i think to start off with.

*Proficient in one handed firearms, simple weapons, light armor
*Same skills as normal, unless you can think of a reason for others, like Alchemy
*Spellstrike WORKING like it should, same with arcane pool with guns
*Changing arcane pool enhancements accordingly for a ranged weapon
*Maybe Diminished spellcasting
*Adding "Abundant Ammuniton" and "Fabricate Bullets" and similar spells to spell list while removing some of the more melee based ones

Just some ideas to start, pls give me some ideas

Um.... Myrmidarch or Eldritch Archer? Despite the name of Eldritch Archer it says "ranged weapon".

Then take Amateur Gunslinger or switch something out for Grit and firearm prof and you are good to go?

Eldritch Archer 4/Spellslinger 16. Spam Named Bullet.

Limiting to one handed guns makes sense, using your spellstrike to cast TOUCH spells thru the gun, using arcane pool to enhance the gun... etc.

Well, it's an interesting idea. The big bonus here is that it would allow you to cast touch spells as ranged touch spells (i.e. via the gun). I suggest to wait a few levels before enabling this, and having some drawback to balance it against. For instance, removing the enchant weapon ability, or having it cost an arcane pool point. Remove some arcana or bonus feats to account for the gun proficiencies you'd be getting.

Um.... Myrmidarch or Eldritch Archer? Despite the name of Eldritch Archer it says "ranged weapon".

Eldrich Archer, yes. Myrm doesn't work at all, as written.

Dracoknight wrote:

Um.... Myrmidarch or Eldritch Archer? Despite the name of Eldritch Archer it says "ranged weapon".

Eldrich Archer, yes. Myrm doesn't work at all, as written.

Pardon my confusion, but what is it that doesnt work with the Myrm?

Kurald Galain wrote:

Dracoknight wrote:

Um.... Myrmidarch or Eldritch Archer? Despite the name of Eldritch Archer it says "ranged weapon".

Eldrich Archer, yes. Myrm doesn't work at all, as written.

Pardon my confusion, but what is it that doesnt work with the Myrm?

Myrmidarchs used to have problems with the higher level version of Ranged Spellstrike. The wording made it virtually impossible to figure out how it worked. I'm guessing that is what Kurald Galain referred to. They fixed it in the last UC errata though.

Myrmidarchs used to have problems with the higher level version of Ranged Spellstrike. The wording made it virtually impossible to figure out how it worked. I'm guessing that is what Kurald Galain referred to. They fixed it in the last UC errata though.

Ah i see, as its written in the d20pfsrd it doesnt seem too impossible to understand so i got a bit confused to what was broken.

On topic of the thread though, maybe the OP wanted a setup where the gunslinger magus could use grit abilities as a part of his arcane pool?

Pardon my confusion, but what is it that doesnt work with the Myrm?

Ranged spellstrike only works with spells that were already ranged, which basically defeats the point.

And the default Spell Combat only works with melee weapons, and the myrm doesn't change that.

And no, the errata doesn't fix that. The Card Caster and Eldritch Archer archetypes do (and despite the name, CC isn't limited to cards).

Card Caster still runs into the issue of not being able to spell combat with ranged weapons though.

Eldritch Archer can be a perfectly competent gun user. Built one a while back, and it was pretty fun. They also have some ways of spellstriking with non-ranged spells (via new Arcana published in that same book).

Most of the spells you'll want are also on the Wizard list, so it's easy to pick those up as well.

Dracoknight wrote:

Pardon my confusion, but what is it that doesnt work with the Myrm?

Ranged spellstrike only works with spells that were already ranged, which basically defeats the point.

Reach Spell lets you deliver melee touch spells through your ranged weapon. With a switch-hitter build that can be quite nice.

And the default Spell Combat only works with melee weapons, and the myrm doesn't change that.

Ranged Spellstrike, like regular Spellstrike, doesn't require Spell Combat to function. It would be nice at the lower levels, but the ability works under the current rules.

And no, the errata doesn't fix that. The Card Caster and Eldritch Archer archetypes do (and despite the name, CC isn't limited to cards).

Yes, if you want to make a Magus that is focused on ranged attacks then those are better choices. Myrmidarchs are much better suited to switch-hitting than for the build described in the OP, but it simply isn't true that its abilities are non-functional.

Even so, it would have been nice if Myrmidarch DIDN'T trade out Spell Recall and Improved Spell Recall for Ranged Spellstrike -- leave that to the Eldritch Archer (which, however, was not around when Myrmidarch was written); you can even combine the archetypes, although with things as they are the synergy is bad due to getting Ranged Spellstrike 2 times. With the stuff from Weapon Master's Handbook (and maybe to a lesser extent Armor Master's Handbook), Myrmidarch is a perfectly reasonable Magus-Fighter backcross, from which the tradeout of Spell Recall and Improved Spell Recall mainly detracts.

Reach Spell lets you deliver melee touch spells through your ranged weapon. With a switch-hitter build that can be quite nice.

Every Magus is a switch hitter; the myrm is just worse at it, that's all.

Ranged Spellstrike, like regular Spellstrike, doesn't require Spell Combat to function.

Of course. But here's the thing: Spell Combat is both the most iconic and the most powerful ability the Magus gets.

A plain Magus can make a full attack and cast a ranged spell like Scorching Ray. A myrm's ability instead lets him make a single attack to attach the ray to an arrow. To add insult to inury, the ray is normally a touch attack and the arrow is not. Really not a good trade.

That makes the myrm archetype a straight and thorough downgrade over regular Magus. And to put this in context, the OP is looking for a strong ranged archetype: Card Caster and Eldritch Archer do that, myrm does not.

Go eldritch archer, consider a dip somewhere to get access to guns. The Siege weapons archetype for gunslingers actually gets int-based grit, so maybe shoot for that.

Gisher wrote:

Reach Spell lets you deliver melee touch spells through your ranged weapon. With a switch-hitter build that can be quite nice.

Every Magus is a switch hitter; the myrm is just worse at it, that's all.

{. . .}

Agreed on what you wrote after this, but what do you think of this build (NOT a gun build, but you could dip 1 level of Gunslinger to make it one)? That was the fastest way I could think of to get a Magus online as a switch-hitter -- it needs Weapon Training to avoid needing to spend a feat on Martial Focus (like the build in my post below it, but that one is intended for the long haul, not for getting online fast).

Gisher wrote:

Reach Spell lets you deliver melee touch spells through your ranged weapon. With a switch-hitter build that can be quite nice.

Every Magus is a switch hitter; the myrm is just worse at it, that's all.

Quote:

Ranged Spellstrike, like regular Spellstrike, doesn't require Spell Combat to function.

Of course. But here's the thing: Spell Combat is both the most iconic and the most powerful ability the Magus gets.

A plain Magus can make a full attack and cast a ranged spell like Scorching Ray. A myrm's ability instead lets him make a single attack to attach the ray to an arrow. To add insult to inury, the ray is normally a touch attack and the arrow is not. Really not a good trade.

That makes the myrm archetype a straight and thorough downgrade over regular Magus. And to put this in context, the OP is looking for a strong ranged archetype: Card Caster and Eldritch Archer do that, myrm does not.

I'm happy to debate the relative values of Magus archetypes, but I'd like to clear up the issue that started this conversation first. You said that it was "broken" and "didn't work at all as written." That's the issue I was addressing. Did you really mean that the abilities don't function under the rules, or did you just mean that they function but you don't think they are very good?

Agreed on what you wrote after this, but what do you think of this build (NOT a gun build, but you could dip 1 level of Gunslinger to make it one)? That was the fastest way I could think of to get a Magus online as a switch-hitter -- it needs Weapon Training to avoid needing to spend a feat on Martial Focus (like the build in my post below it, but that one is intended for the long haul, not for getting online fast).

It's an interesting build, but surely you can get archery on line at an earlier level than eleven? I mean, at level ten you could just pull a teleport pounce.

I'm happy to debate the relative values of Magus archetypes, but I'd like to clear up the issue that started this conversation first.

The archetype is broken in that taking it makes you directly worse at the things it's supposed to be good at. And I'm really not interested in arguing about semantics.

What my main goal is here is to create a NEW archetype... Is there any set rules for this? And where is it found?

The thing is my DM is fairly flexible and will work with things if i can bring it to the table being fair and well explained, not too overpowered, but not too horribly bad that its not worth playing... (Myrm, Eld Arch, and Card Caster. While these have 1 or 2 points that may be ok, all in all not well writen)

I would like a new, well writen, fairly evenly matched archetype as a Gun Magus.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Agreed on what you wrote after this, but what do you think of this build (NOT a gun build, but you could dip 1 level of Gunslinger to make it one)? That was the fastest way I could think of to get a Magus online as a switch-hitter -- it needs Weapon Training to avoid needing to spend a feat on Martial Focus (like the build in my post below it, but that one is intended for the long haul, not for getting online fast).

It's an interesting build, but surely you can get archery on line at an earlier level than eleven? I mean, at level ten you could just pull a teleport pounce.

{. . .}

Actually, I did get archery online to more than the basics at level 7 with Ace Trip. This build has already got battlefield control fully online at level 7 -- anything after that (including the archery feats referenced for post-PFS levels) is just to make it better.

By the way, note that firearm attacks within the first range increment (and beyond if using Deadeye, which unfortunately means you can't use the Siege Engineer archetype, which replaces this Deed). This means that a Myrmidarch Magus using a firearm for Ranged Spellstrike isn't doing worse than casting a Ranged Touch Attack spell without using Ranged Spellstrike. The Ranged Spellstrike ability still isn't great (since you still can't use it with Spell Combat, since Myrmidarch doesn't have Eldritch Archer's Ranged Spell Combat), but at least now it is allowing you to combine firearm damage with a spell effect, and it might even give a slight synergy, since you can use an Arcane Pool point to give your firearm an Enhancement Bonus, or you might be able to get an enchanted firearm, thereby improving your firearm-based Ranged Touch Attack compared to a non-Spellstrike Ranged Touch Attack. This might make the build I posted above, but with a Gunslinger dip (1 level only) inserted at the beginning, worthwhile despite the further loss of spellcasting progression from the dip + Myrmidarch's Diminished Spellcasting. Just think of what this will look like at level 7 (when Ace Trip will still come online) -- you'll be blowing over enemies on the ground and blowing them out of the sky too, and at 10th level, a decent fraction of the time they'll be Staggered (Staggering Fall from Spell Blending as your 9th level Magus Arcana) if they're still alive (and at 12th level, their Saves will become more difficult when you cast Persistent Staggering Fall).

* * * * * * * *

To make an actual Gun Magus archetype (I won't vouch for "well-written", though :-) ), I would start with the combination of the Eldritch Archer and Myrmidarch archetypes (which is legal but normally a bad idea), delay Armor Proficiency and Armored Spellcasting by 1 category (so ability to use Light Armor at the start goes away, ability to use Medium Armor becomes ability to use Light Armor, and ability to use Heavy Armor becomes ability to use Medium Armor) but modify the combination to have firearm proficiency and Gunsmithing, and replace the Myrmidarch's Ranged Spellstrike with the following 2 abilities:

Grit Arcana

At 4th level, the Gun Magus gains the ability to use Arcane Pool points for a limited number of Gunslinger Deeds, on a one-for-one Arcane Pool point to Grit point conversion basis. The Gun Magus gains the Deadeye and Quick Clear Deeds, and uses Arcane Pool points to power them, but can't use Arcane Pool points to use Deeds from other classes or those gained by feats, and cannot regain Arcane Pool points as a Gunslinger would regain Grit points. Effects (such as Extra Grit and Signature Deed) that add to, reduce the cost of, or otherwise affect Grit or Panach don't affect the Arcane Pool of Gun Magus. This ability and Eldritch Dead Shot (see below) replace the Ranged Spellstrike of the Myrmidarch but not the Ranged Spellstrike of the Eldritch Archer.

Eldritch Dead Shot

At 11th level, a Gun Magus gains the Gunslinger's Dead Shot Deed, spending an Arcane Pool point for each use as noted above for Grit Arcana, including the same restrictions. However, when using this Deed in conjunction with Ranged Spellstrike (from the Eldritch Archer archetype) with a spell of 4th level or higher capable of affecting multiple targets, the restriction against using this Deed to affect multiple targets with one attack with a scatter or cone attack weapon (such as a Blunderbuss) is partially lifted, allowing one target for each successful attack roll, but limited to the maximum number of targets that could be affected by the spell. For adjudicating the level of a spell to qualify for use with this ability, include the level increase added by the Heighten Spell metamagic feat, but not the level increase added by other metamagic feats, nor any effective level increase added by a Metamagic Rod of Heighten Spell or similar item. This ability and Grit Arcana (see above) replace the Ranged Spellstrike of the Myrmidarch but not the Ranged Spellstrike of the Eldritch Archer.