So, GM, you said "your stealth total is actually a little lower than that" ... I'm not sure I follow? Here's the breakdown on Mel's Stealth score:
3 class skill
4 DEX modifier
5 competence (Cloak of Elvenkind)
4 untyped bonus (1/2 rogue level from Phantom Thief archetype)
And she has both Fast Stealth (no penalty for moving at full speed) and the first two Stealth skill unlocks.
Is there some kind of circumstance penalty or something?
On a related note, Pathfinder light mechanics are stupidly complex. That is all.
Door/Masks puzzle: (I know it's over, but I still want to :P) - also: funny because I was thinking anti-magic zone and mundane torch when it was pointed out Kazador became clunkier :)
Ask Face 1 if Face 2 would tell Door 1 was correct.
Door 1 correct => Face 1(True)&Face2(False) => False
Door 2 correct => Face 1(False)&Face2(True) => True
(The false-mask inverts the statement of truth-mask - so you do exactly the opposite. If the answer is True, you choose the other door. If the answer is False, you stick with the door.
Ask Face 1 if Da means yes.
Door 1 correct&Da = yes => Face 1(True) => Da(yes)
Door 1 correct&Da = no => Face 1(True => Da(No)
Door 2 correct&Da = yes => Face 1(False) => Ka(No)
Door 2 correct&Da = no => Face 1(False) => Ka(yes)
(basically multiplicative mathematics, minus and minus is plus so doubling up works :) )
If Da => Door 1, if Ka => Door 2
#3(the one I knew - we had it in a logic semantics course a few semesters back)
Ask Face 1=> Is it true that either you always speak the truth or Face 2 answers randomly, but not both?
Basically (1T XOR 2R)
1T2F3R => (1 XOR 0) => 1
1T2R3F => (1 XOR 1) => 0
1F2T3R => !(!0 XOR !0) => !(1 XOR 1) => !0 => 1
1F2R3T => !(!0 XOR !1) => !(1 XOR 0) => !1 => 0
1R => Random
Switch Case 1(yes):
1R(meaning 2 and 3 are not)
in all the instances, #2 is not-random.
Switch Case 0(no):
1R(meaning 2 and 3 are not)
in all the instances, #3 is not-random.
Ask not-random a trivial question: Was this door correct(pointing to a previously correct door) (Deduce if not-random is telling truth or lying)
Question 3: Point to a door and ask if it's the correct one. If truth, pick the door, if lying, pick the other door.
So, medium aether elemental telikinetic throw is a dc 16 fortitude save. That seems like it just might land on an elf that shouldn't weight more than 200lbs :D <evil grin> It throws things up to 480ft... Mwahhaha
If this is indeed an antimagic field (AMF) -- and our tests seem to indicate that it is -- then summoning is not going to help, because you can't cast the summon spell. Even if you could, summoned creatures wink out as soon as they enter one. It says so in the spell.
Incidentally, I was checking inventories looking for mundane gear that might be useful, and discovered that Kelian has 10 torches. They apparently came with the Paladin's Kit I bought him. So that's where we got the torch that Fyrtor is carrying right now.
I have just had a truly wicked idea.
We have rope.
Rope can be made into lassos.
All we need to do is stand inside the AMF where their spells cannot touch us, lasso them and pull them to us in the AMF. And then they're screwed.
|Kazador The Clanless|
Gm, where exactly is the boundary for the AMF? If it ends on our side of the corner that makes a big difference.
Edit: If Mel could see around the corner while just peaking the field must end somewhere before that corner meaning we can do some casting while still covered
To put some more details in, we've got plenty of rope. Kelian has 50 feet of it if no one else does. We tie a slip-knot on one end, then one of us gets to throw it while everyone else grabs the back end of the rope and readies actions to haul it in as soon as the thrower says "go".
The lasso functions like a net, meaning it has a maximum range of 10 feet. To get in range of the senior mage, the thrower is going to have to step into the square where Mel's darkvision came back, which is probably outside the AMF. Therefore I suspect the thrower is still going to take two readied actions before throwing (more, if the wizards win initiative).
I suggest we throw a lit torch around the corner before the thrower steps into range. That should eliminate any light-based miss chances. And if we're lucky, they'll get twitchy and fire off their readied actions at the torch rather than at one of us.
It's also an exotic weapon. I rather doubt any of us have proficiency, so it'll be BAB+DEX-4. Fortunately it functions as a ranged touch attack, so that should make it easier to hit.
So the exact sequence of events I'm proposing is:
1. Somebody throws a torch around the corner. I nominate Túrion, on the grounds that he hasn't got a lot of strength to add to the pull attempt.
2. The thrower steps in, probably gets hit a few times, then makes the throw.
3. If it hits, the thrower yells "go!" and everyone else hauls the rope in. I think this would be a Drag attempt versus the mage's CMD, which is probably pretty low. It's up to the GM whether this is one character making a drag attempt with +2 aid another bonuses from everyone else or what.
If it works, then we reel him in. If not, well, at that point we may as well charge in and do it the old-fashioned way.
|Kazador The Clanless|
Kazador can do it. Dex16 and full BaB. Which means +7 to hit. Vs a mage’s Touch AC? That could do it. And with Str19 he might be able to pull him in too.
I was going to explain that lasso rope is not regular rope (it's much stiffer and is actually pretty expensive) and all that, but then I looked up lasso and in the description pathfinder says it's a rope with a simple slip knot. The cool factor is definitely there.
Still, I'd like to know exactly where the AMF boundary ends. Mel should know in character because the sudden return of darkvisin wouldn't have gone unnoticed.
My impression was that the first square outside of the hallway, where Mel was standing when her darkvision came back. I have put a marker on the map pointing at that square. My impression is that the AMF field ends on the left side of that square, leaving the entire hallway under its effect.
|Captain Brolin Muse|
Wish I'd been around to post before we enacted the lasso plan - but we've seen that the older mage has emergency force sphere. That'll stop a lasso.
Still - if we force them to cast it, it'll take a round or so to get back out of it. If we can deal with the younger mage in that time, we halve their action economy. If Kazador's lasso doesn't go through, perhaps he can try it on the other wizard.
Question: when the pit appeared, Kazador had a rope in his hand that we were all holding on to, and we were all ready to haul on it. Did he let go of the rope? I can easily see him just tightening his grip on the rope as he started falling. It seems a pretty natural reflex.
If he did let go of the rope, well, it's dangling down in the pit and we can easily lower it to haul him out.
If he did not let go, then I see different possible outcomes.
Maybe we prevented him from reaching the bottom of the pit, leaving him dangling in mid-air part way down and us straining against the rope. Undignified, perhaps, but it would probably save him at least some of the damage, and again we'd be in a good position to haul him out.
But ... maybe the sudden, unexpected strain pulled us in with him. Whoops. As mentioned, a very natural reflex under these circumstances would be to tighten a grip on what you're holding, in which case we may be making those strength checks after all, this time to avoid being pulled into the pit with a panicked Kazador.
Or maybe we were jerked forward a bit and then dropped the rope. In that case, I suspect Kazador's momentum likely imparted enough momentum to the rope to pull it down into the pit with him. In which case, well, it won't do us any good, but at least he can play cat's cradle while he waits for the pit spell to wear off.
|Kazador The Clanless|
Panicked says he drops everything he is holding. Luckily he wasn’t holding his hammer. That’d be embarrassing.
Right now though we are in trouble. The pit keeps the party out of there. We can’t cast spells until we get close enough for them to hit us, and if I’m reading it right the closest point that spells work is where Kazador is.
Kazador is at -2 to all saves and can’t do anything for 11 rounds. But at least he isn’t fleeing! 40ft a round might well bring him all the way back to the orc areas of the hold by the time it wears off.
What kind of pit?
There's a whole series.
It does slightly make a difference if Kaz is running in panic circles on solid ground or slowly dissolving in a pool of Acid at the bottom.
Also, I tend towards charging. They spent their readied actions, they don't have others right now. Probably they are buffed, but with most mages, you still want to close into melee, and it's not like they can 5-foot step away with their positioning.
That places us in danger of falling into the pit as well, but I would attempt to dispel that, assuming it was cast by the lesser of the two(considering fall damage).
In that case, it would probably be sensible for me to go ahead and attempt the dispel before the others commit, but I'd like for us to formulate an overall course of action before I do.
Also, one minor thing: Kazador should need to do a Will Save versus Panicked, assuming - from effects - that the spell in question is Banshee Blast.
It's important, so I'm going to ask, there are the slopes sides all around the red squares correct?
Fyrtor has a decent acrobatics acore, so I could have him try to jump in to close with the mage on the bottom, but the whole standing on the slopes edge is chancey at best.
Also of note, those without darkvision can't really see what's going on right now. I assume Kelian is holding our torch?
Hmmm. So, Kazador just failed that Will save with a 18 on the die and a total result of 26, remaining panicked for 11 rounds.
Failing on a 26 means the DC was at least 27, for a 6th level spell from an 11th level caster. It is possible to get that high at level 11: 10 base + 6 spell level + 1 spell focus + 1 greater spell focus = 18, which leaves 9 unaccounted for. Probably most of that is INT -- I'm guessing he has an INT score of 26: 18 base INT + 2 racial + 2 level bumps + 6 headband, for a modifier of +8. That would get us to 26, but that still leaves 1 unaccounted for. It's probably some obscure thing the GM dug up.
Anyway, there is no one in the party who can reliably pass saves DCs that high -- which, I would like to note, are roughly in line with a CR 21 encounter. Most of us are looking at seriously bad odds on passing any save that guy throws at us. Mel, for example, would be fishing for 20s to save against any spell of level 3 or higher, unless it happens to target R
We can't buff up before we go in, because we're in an AMF.
We don't currently have any good way to enter the area, because there's a pit.
For that matter, Kazador is the only one who even knows there is a pit, because it's around the corner from us and not visible.
We can't stand in the AMF and shoot them, because due to the angles there is no clear shot at either of them.
So, yeah ... I'm afraid my best idea at the moment involves hauling Kazador out of the pit and then probably retreating. At least long enough for the panic and the pit to wear off.
I still want a clear update on the status of the rope, please. I assume the panicked condition will persist in the AMF -- the magic that caused it has come and gone, and Kazador is now just plain afraid.
GM, two questions:
1. What is the air flow like in the area? I presume the dwarves designed their home to have air flowing through it so they don't, you know, asphyxiate. So how is the air moving here?
2. Is there any flammable material nearby? And if so, how much?
With sufficient fuel and favorable air flow, maybe we could light a large fire and smoke them out ...
The Int score from 18+2(racial)+2(level)+6(headband) is actually 28, giving you that +1 you are missing.
I do doubt he'll throw a +6 Headband my way, though, so chances are he has some focus shenanigans...e.g. my compulsion spells are harder to resist due to my bloodline, and powerful spells allows me to boost the DC(and the focus rod further - right now I could technically reach a DC 26 with a level 4 spell...theoretically).
I very much would like a offical breakdown eventually, after the fight, because I'll aim to improve based on it.
RAW, the effects of the spell will not persist in the AMF. I'm not going to interpret that in a way to make it harder for you than it already is. Also, I'm not going to throw save or die spells at you guys because that's just no fun. On the bright side, there's some sweet loot for you guys after this encounter, if you deal with it.
Regarding your position, I interpreted some of you as saying you moved past the corner to be ready to help throw the rope. But it's up to you where you were standing before the rope throw as long as it's not inside the amf and is roughly in line with what you were actually planning.
Regarding your calculations, I'll drop a hint: The senior wizard has an int of 30. He's old (but casts age resistance), and has put two level up bumps into int. So he has 18+2+2+1+1+6 for int.
Re ventilation: There are ventilation shafts here and there. Air flow is weak and toward the W or E: 1d2 ⇒ 2
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So he has a +6 Item?
Whatever we do, that Mage needs to go down.
Or at least, needs to be disarmed of his headband!
That is an absolute necessity.
How about this?
We haul Kazador out and we wait. Siege them. Stepping into the AMF would basically mean death for a pair of wizards, and their spells can't touch us as long as we stay in it.
There are lots of us; we can set guards in the AMF, take turns resting. Sooner or later they have to either sleep or teleport away.
I mean, that's a terrible idea. They would just teleport away eventually; we've seen them do it before. We wouldn't get their loot, and I've got a sneaking suspicion there's no XP for forcing an NPC to leave the battlefield by refusing to engage.
And we don't know what's ahead, or what shenanigans they could get up to in there. Plus they could just teleport away and then come back later. And of course there's a whole second vault, apparently, and the longer we hang out here the longer the orcs have to find and loot it.
Anybody got any better ideas? Because that's all I've got.
|Kazador The Clanless|
Step 1: Haul Kazador up.
Step 2: Wait until the pit goes away/panic is gone
Step 3: Charge! Paladin in first to tank with his good saves.
It’s kinda like a trap filled hall and no rogue. You send the barbarian in. Is it pretty? No. Will he die? Maybe. But the mage is lvl11 and likely “only” had 2 lvl6 spells. Yeah I lose half my Hp, but both mages used spell slots.
And to keep them from teleporting away? Talk to them. Keep them talking for a few minutes. It’ll count towards spells wearing off.
I mean, we knew this was likely to go bad before we engaged them.
How much light is bleeding into that area? With his low light vision can Fyrtor from his position see anything?
Waiting them out is not an option. They made it this far, they'll simple move on ahead, loot the vault, and leave with whatever they came for.
I don't think sitting back and letting them go ahead with whatever they are here for works in our favor.
If I can see I'm going to jump the pit and cast greater flaming sphere and place it in on the big mage's square. He can have fun trying to dodge that each turn or step across the pit. That or he'll spend his main action (in sure he has quickened spells) dispelling my spell.
|Kazador The Clanless|
Remeber the squares next to the mate's are sloped, unless the pit get dispelled it's going to be very rough to stand next to them an wail on them like we want to.
If they could get to the vault, why haven't they done so already?
My guess is they're stuck somehow.
It seems like nobody wants to wait them out. I'm not convinced charging in is a good idea, but if that's what we're doing, then we may as well do it.
Regarding Kelian tanking: HA HA HA HA HA. He's got a -5 penalty on acrobatics and a +4 Reflex save. If he tries to leap in there, he will be landing on Kazador's head.
Anyway, his saves are +9/4/8 once he gets out of the AMF, which are not bad for a level 6 character with no save boosting gear, but still worse than several of the PCs.
Yes Fyrtor, Kelian is carrying a torch, so you can see as long as you're near it. And once you're out of the AMF your darkvision will kick in again anyway. You did include yourself in that, if I recall correctly.
Mel is going to be completely useless in this fight. Cramped quarters, and poking her face out of the AMF is just asking to get dominated, petrified, or otherwise incapacitated.
Ok last call, we going all in? It definitely seems like a losing proposition. We can run and let them loot the vaults, or we might die trying to stop them. My proposed action is out there, but I'm not opposed to running provided we can get Kazador out.
It is pretty hilarious that Algric has gone from devoted follower to Judgey McJudgey
I'm just puzzled as to why Algric thought it was necessary to get out a new rope and drop it in the hole when there's a perfectly good one in the hole already.
Meh. Either his rope or the one down there doesn’t matter. Also yeah...he’s a representation of the crushing burden of expectations put on Kazador. Based purely on clan, he was a thane. Given all of the deference and respect possible. All of it unearned.
But then...was is it his fault that an orc rolled high on CMB? No. Was it the right move to retreat and come back to retrieve it? Yes. And is it his fault that two mages who both outlevel him can force him to make a will save that needs 20+? No.
But society doesn’t care. If a Smith makes a shoddy sword, then he is judged on that. If a mason makes an unsafe tunnel, he is judged on that. It’s their craft. Kazador is just unlucky enough that excuses aren’t accepted. And just as society as a whole would judge him poorly, so does Algric.
It sucks. But part of Kazador being around all of these non-dwarves is learning to learn and accept his failures.
Hopefully that won’t include losing all of his people’s heirlooms. IC he’d rather die heroically than see that.
|Captain Brolin Muse|
The angle really isn't good for Muse to charge in here - there's nowhere to stand. I'll wait for Turion to attempt his dispel afore taking actions.
Really wishing I hadn't locked in my cleric spells for today, or I'd cast remove fear on Kazador.
I think Turion can step onto the sloped portion and the attempt to dispell the pit. It's risky because if it fails he'll have to save to avoid falling in the pit.
I thought so, too. But it seems ruleswise you can't cut corners even in such a case. Now, I could probably do a long jump for 5 feet to get over there, but that seems gimmicky. If I could get over to the field indicated, I would. Otherwise, I'm down in the Pit with Kaz.
|Captain Brolin Muse|
I imagine that a sixteen doesn't save against falling in the pit.
What happens when you're grappling someone on the edge of a conjured pit? I'm pretty sure Muse is both stronger and heavier than the elf he's pinning, so if he's going down he's probably taking the poor genocidal wizard along for the ride. But it isn't like Muse dropped off of a sheer cliff - it's a slanted floor. Would being secured to a struggling elf give him a circumstance bonus to his reflex save, maybe even a big enough one to matter?
The bottom of that pit is getting crowded.
GM, a question: if Mel drinks a potion while inside the AMF, does she gain the potion's benefit when she moves outside of the AMF?
Fytror's actions will be the same, should I repost/reroll it or just basically say see above?
Ok, if Fyrtor gets to the other side of the pit and determines he can't cast (as determined by his darkvision status) he'll "study" the older mage.