Ascension - Mageocracy

Game Master bbangerter

GM, at what point would Edric be uncontrolled?

My gut reaction would be when Tavrus is dead. Otherwise I assume he'd stand guard over you and attack any enemy near.

I'll have to look into it further though as unconscious may be enough.

yeah, i figured unconscious wouldnt be enough since Tavrus must sleep sometime, but death will likely come soon...

not sure if he would protect Tavrus by attacking the flying gnome. also i forgot to take his action last turn when i channeled.

I just moved him out with you to continue to be nearby to protect you.

Fly, you fools!

Well....I'm thinking about running, but not sure it'd help. Tomlin is LE, so in his mind everyone is expendable for the "good of the order", but I just don't see how Tomlin could conclude the group will live through this. Serelina is dead and Tavrus is as good as dead (sorry....). Edric won't do anything but make sure nobody attacks Tavrus, but at -6hp Tavrus might just bleed out on his own. In any event, this group would make short work of the undead. That leaves just Tomlin and Ian. Tomlin is glittered (so he can't hide) and blind. Ian is at full, but alone. And both Ian and Tomlin have poorer Will Saves vs. a witch who could try to slumber us vs a DC 19. Tomlin and Ian both only have 20' move rates. We know at least the monk and the witch can fly, and presumably a lot faster than us.

Honestly I doubt we'll live another round or two. If they are smart (and so far their tactics have been quite good), the monk will pummel Tomlin and the witch will slumber Ian. And that's if we run or not. Tomlin's fatalistic and not afraid to die for the Cause. So part of me is thinking that he takes a desperation run up the side of the building and kill the held guy (if he is still held by then). I'm pretty sure the guy in armor is Anthony, the leader of the criminals.

Not decided yet...might still run. Just noting that it looks really, really bad either way.

EDIT: just saw the GM's response on main thread. Blinded, Tomlin can't CdG, so the plan to kill the held guy is moot. Looks like it is indeed time to run...not sure it'll help though.

Honestly, had I played Tavrus to form, he would have run about two rounds ago.

Tomlin should run. He would at least want to report the events if he can actually escape.

Next steps can be determined from there. This is all IMHO, of course, but we have to deal with realty.

I've had to remain silent on the recent comments here to make sure I didn't accidentally let anything slip prior to Valdr showing up just now as a NPC, but yes they've a few that are definitely built optimized for combat.

But wow, interesting round, I was expecting the usual useless low rolls for the NPC guardsman, but they finally contributed something.

Just wanted to add an additional note here.

There has been some grumbling that I pulled this out to try and stop a TPK. (And I expected that might happen, and there might be feelings that way on both sides). However since round 1 I've known when more guards/allies would arrive, what direction they'd arrive from, and so forth (up through round 10).

They did point out an oversight on my part with the priest of Nethys actions. She wasn't in a position to see Tavrus fall, so her actions will be changed to something else.

I'll admit that Valdr's appearance looked a bit Deus ex Machina to me as well, but if you say you planned it all along I believe it. Tomlin had been regularly communicating with HQ and they knew the targets we were after were important.

Not sure if Valdr's appearance will stave off a TPK or not, but it may not matter much. Assuming PvP possibilities will remain a significant factor in this game, we all will likely need to look at changing out characters if we want to stay on. Even with guard support and a surprise appearance by an old ally, we clearly are no match for what the other group(s?) has/have put together.

Shall Ian drop the bow, move to gnome while drawing Bardiche, and power attack? Prolly best if I consult for tactics since I'm the new guy. Figure that might be enough to put him out of the fight before he flies away or something.

Also, I had a feeling more help would come, being the Tower and all. If you want to swap chars anyway, I say we fight to the death and take some of them with us if that's how it plays out. Any hey, never know, the dice may favor us.

Fair question RE: fight or flight. Taking out the "gnome" (we know he's actually a dwarf, but whatever) could be a great example of a good offense being the best defense. They lose a lot of combat mobility without him. The witch can still cast spells and fly after us, but the rest of them are not that mobile. So I'd say do it if you think Ian would. However, I'd also say don't metagame: Ian wouldn't want to die if he could avoid it, and I doubt he'd be comforted by knowing that you'd roll up a new PC in RL! But it really might be the best course ofd action at this point to try to take out the "gnome".

so tavrus is still down?

just wondering, its fine with me and there are no hard feelings. i will roll a suitable new character if so.

i did view it to be a bit of fudging to avoid PC death, which i dont like, but i kept it to myself since i figured it was in the realm of possibility that it was planned.

it was a bit heard moving about and playing the subterfuge game with undead, anyway.

posting this in all 28 of my games (although some of them are dead, i am pretty sure... and others are quite slow so my absence will not be missed overmuch):

There are two hurricanes heading for Hawaii, where I live. One is supposed to land on Friday after being downgraded to a tropical depression, the other is supposed to land Sunday with experts unsure as to how much it'll be downgraded after colliding with the mountains.

I'm sure everything will be fine, so no need to worry. People are freaking out for some reason, but I remain in a state of relative readiness.

I anticipate a loss of internet, at a minimum (they can barely keep it together under optimal conditions). Likely loss of power as well. A time without electricity could last anywhere from four days to four months (with some time around one to two weeks being more realistic).

I'll be on between now and then, but if i just disappear, check the news, hahaha.

Tavrus is still down.

crap

slap me awake and flee :D (standard+move)

"Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature"

if I dont get coupdegras-ed before then

Tomlin's already well past Ian, but Valdr is/was good-aligned and could give Ian a nice "wakey-wakey" kick as he passed by on his retreat.

So GM. It looks like we will have one survivor - Tomlin. Will the plan be to rebuild a new group with new characters or is the game designed that this would be a victory for the other group in the game and we're done with our efforts?

You can either take your existing characters and rebuild them to be more optimized for combat (or not at your choice) or you can build new characters if you'd like.

Also everyone will be level 7 after this combat is over.

Btw is this a house rule? "A creature with total concealment cannot be CdG'd."

"You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace)." -http://paizo.com/prd/combat.html

Also, is that our 'one true resurrection' for the campaign?

I would strongly recommend any of us who want to continue in this campaign consider far more optimized character options than any we first picked. I know I will be creating a different PC if I stay in the campaign.

Furthermore, I'd recommend that the best group would include a synthesis summoner, a scarred witch doctor, a dervish dancer, a straight cleric who channels positive energy, another regular summoner and an archer. Either the archer or dervish should also have highly optimized face/subterfuge skill. I know this may seem a bit circumscribed, but some classes are vastly more optimized than others. I'd just about guarantee you that these classes are found in abundance amongst the factions we are competing against.

yeah i was already thinking of going the sneaky ranged character route.

i have played synthesist summoner before, while it is powerful, i dont really like it.

looking at the original recruitment once more, many of my ideas went out the window.

i am thinking now perhaps either Wizard (Shadowcaster) or Wizard (Spellslinger)

maybe Rogue (Sniper) but we already have one sneaky guy and perhaps maybe Ian wants to go the rogue route.

The Shadowcaster Wizard archetype is from Inner Sea Magic (but i saw it on the SRD since i dont have that book). Would that be permissible GM?

Half-elf or elf might be good races because of immunity to sleep (low light vision is nice too).

I'd still like to play the same character, hopefully that won't handicap ya'll much. That said I'll definitely take the chance to better optimize him for pvp rather than roleplay purposes. Two-Handed Fighter archetype instead of polearm master. Greatsword, furious focus, cap of the free thinker, necklace of adaptation, iron will, etc. I think it will still fit his personality just fine, it just won't be as "city watch"-like.

(also, synthesis summoner sounds ridiculously strong, wow. Haven't even heard of any of these classes)

Btw is this a house rule? "A creature with total concealment cannot be CdG'd."

"You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace)." -http://paizo.com/prd/combat.html

That's me misremembering the rules. You are correct that two rounds can be used to CdG in that scenario.

@Tavrus, the original restrictions wouldn't have allowed the shadow caster, but at this point I will allow it. It's been to hard to keep track of every single spell, feat, trait, etc when auditing characters during level ups and the like.

@Tomlin, a while ago you'd mentioned getting poison antidotes to counteract stinking cloud. Having looked into it, an antidote wouldn't work as the stinking cloud doesn't allow additional saves (which the antidote gives a bonus to any upcoming save). To counteract the stinking cloud you'd need neutralize poison, or to purchase something like a necklace of adaptation.

ok guys, so, honestly, which do you think would help more?

an illusionist, or a gun-wielding wizard who can cast spells through his gun?

while shooting and casting spells into bullets could be good from a straight up mechanical standpoint, illusions could also be good in this medium (assuming the enemy isnt reading our thread, they wouldn't know what isn't truly real as long as the GM made their save in secret and described what they viewed as real to them as if it were truly real).

or do you think a rogue sniper would be better?

Saves for illusions would be done in secret at the appropriate time (similar with things like detect thoughts and the like).

Where can I find creation rules?

And illusion can be quite powerful when properly implemented, as long as they are prevented from metagaming around them,

Ian, it is apartment our targets will be flying a lot... A ranges build with secondary melee might be best.

I will look into dawn flower...

GM: Would this be the 1-time true resurrection mentioned in the campaign description, or just a regular resurrection via the Tower if our bodies are recovered?

Serelina: No guarantee the fights will always be in the open vs. invisible fliers, remember the burning house and cramped tunnels? Remember the leopards? Oh god the leopards

I will improve Ian's ranged combat, but if the rest of the party is better able to deal with fliers that would be more efficient.

Some ideas:
-A bow-focused character in the party
-More spellcasters
-Maybe even ground them out of the air (dispel magic, suffocation, slumber hex).
-Antimagic field would protect vs. slumber while we shot them with bows, and also reveal anyone trying to close in with invisibility.
-Casting a See Invisibility prior to a fight, or a suspected fight, could help.
-A wizard could cast Fly on our melee to go meet them, or we could invest in a couple fly potions/scrolls. Winged boots eventually.
-Force them to fight indoors. I.e. in that fight we could have taken shelter in the house and readied attacks for anyone who came in. Sadly it was over so quickly due to slumber+CDG.
-Maybe we could request some kind of wagon with a weighted-net-launching ballista mounted to it be built, for when we know we're going into a fight. Or some kind of magic item that specifically dispels flight. Hey, we're the magic-government, you never know.

I'd rather keep Ian human, it seems sad to change his race (if that's allowed), but Slumber is really brutal and half-elf would prevent that entirely. Thoughts?

New Ian is ready to go, but I'll leave old Ian's profile as-is for now in case the stats are needed. Feedback/tips appreciated.

By the way - I now looked at the recruitment tab. Heh.

Getting another player would help as well since we appear to be at least one man down with respect to the others. GM - any chance?

@All: good we are discussing this. I have quite a few thoughts....

@Ian: I don't want to tell anyone not to keep their character if they really like the concept, but I highly doubt a straight fighter can work in these PvP arenas. Your Will save is just too horrible. Even indoors, a witch can slumber you almost at will. In fact, almost any Reflex save or Will save forced by these min-max'd casters will serious gimp or totally incapacitate a straight fighter. I would really encourage you to think of a brand new PC. EDIT: just read new-Ian's stats...a +8 Will save is much better, but I stand by the rest of my thoughts.

If I stay in this game, my next PC will be one of three classes. Furthermore, a review of the message boards and the recruitment tab) makes me believe that a Scarred Witchdoctor, a Dawnflower Dervish and a Synthesis Summoner really ought to be three of our 4-5 PC's. These classes have a very strong chance of being simply superior to other classes. I had previously considered dropping Tomlin and put together an idea for a Halfling Dawnflower Dervish (Tomlin's sister, actually), but never pulled the trigger on switching out after the campaign moved more to face skills and less on fighting. But I'm fine with making a synthesis summoner or even the Scarred Witchdoctor (though the latter would have no face skills, someone else would need to lead the conversation charge) if someone else is strongly attacked to the Dervish idea.

Why these three classes? 1) Synthesis Summer: well known to be overpowered, with so many moving parts you can really min-max. It's a lot of work to put together but there are lots of guides on line. You have solid saving throws, spells, and a well-built one can have an almost-impossible-to-hit AC and do very good damage. 2) Scarred Witchdoctor: you get to use Con for the Spell DC's and max that single stat to power your spells, your erstwhile worst save (CON) and your hit points. And you get to fly and Sleep and Stinking Cloud people with a 19 or higher DC. The criminal's witchdoctor was the single biggest problem for us in the fight. 3) Dawnflower Dervish: you use dex for both attacks and damage, which gets pretty absurd fairly quickly. They have solid additional abilities too and you can make a great "face" PC out of the build.

Honorable Mentions for Consideration: 1) Full Cleric: Tavrus was actually (IMO) the closest to an optimized build in our group. Make him an aasimar instead (for Wis/Cha bonus), focus on making Wis and Cha your best stats and loads up on channels and save-or-suck spells. Plus healing (and no crossbow...that's gotta go)...it really works. 2) Archer build: lots of ways to get a high-damage archer build but you have to remember your defense too. An archer type with a Will Save of +2 at 7th level is toast in most PvP fights. I had put together an Inquisitor (mostly for the face skills) that had ability as an archer as well. Some save or suck spells with that build that could be a good idea too. 3)Straight Summoner: notably not the Master Summoner build, which while powerful is not as good for PvP play. The Eidolon can be very, very powerful while the spell selections and single-stat Charisma can make for high save DC's. 4)Paladin: This one's a bit out there, but bear with me. It is quite likely that some/all of the criminal and rebellion groups (our most likely adversaries) are evil. Smite with a high Cha is brutal to evil folk. Great saves too. Paladin is a dark-horse, and may limit other player choices but still something to consider.

@Tavrus: I would recommend the gun-toting wizard idea of the options you mentioned. Illusions can be interesting, but I really question their effectiveness in PvP. You would want to make sure that your spell-casting stat is jacked (a 20, minimum) to force high DC's. Also, I'd be concerned about your saving throws with this build...you can't shoot anyone if you are puking your guts out.

....sorry to ramble. Please do consider one of the class choices I mentioned. I think in a PvP campaign it is very important to put together an "Uber" PC first, then add details that flesh out the personality and make the character fun to play.

Plus Improved Iron Will. The reroll is nice for if you tank your first roll. Supposedly it's equivalent to a +4 or +5, according to math wizards that aren't me. But like I said, I could just roll half-elf and be immune to slumber, plus low-light vision would help a bit for ranged fighting in darker conditions. I'd lose feats/skill points, but I could trim them off carefully. I'm just hesitant to change race, roleplay-wise.

I know the new-Ian isn't ridiculously op like the listed classes, but I hope I squeezed a stronger build out of him. Let me know thoughts on switching to half-elf. Maybe his appearance is human-feature-dominated, with just a bit of height and slightly-too-green eyes or something? I think I could live with that.

Half-elf might be nice for the sleep immunity. If you can stand to lose the feat (all good choices btw...maybe Step Up is the loser?) then I'd say go for it.

Updated for Half-Elf. I don't think I can squeeze any more optimization out of this. Apologies again for being unwilling to swap classes. I don't want to put the group at a disadvantage but I really want to stick with this character.

GM, what is the situation on guns? Emerging/advanced/etc. I dont want to play as any of those "uber 3" classes. So far, within the constraints of oroginal recruitment, im thinking:

1. Shadowcaster (yes of course using high INT and choosing feats to increase DCs, Greater Invisibility for defense)
2. Spellslinger (although I really dont want to use a crappy firearm so I wanna know the setting)
3. Sniper Rogue. Good hide, sneak attack at 50ft. Can probably buy some slaying arrows.

@Ian: Understood. And I will say that (at least by my eyes) you've wrung a lot of optimization out of this build. Let's see what everyone else wants.

@GM: I'd also echo Serelina's question, could we look to add a 5th party member. Though we appreciated the guards' assistance, an actual 5th optimized PC is a huge advantage in PvP fights. Not sure what is happening with the other groups, but it seems like the Criminals had 5-6 PC's (the armored clawed guy, the half-orc witch, the half-orc divine caster, Vaek, the dwarf/gnome monk, and some sort of arcane caster). Being on even footing really helps make a fair fight.

My take:

All, if we optimize as a party rather than individuals we might do better. Yes, the individual classes Tomlin has brought up are awesome, and yes we need to optimize as individuals...

However, if Serelina turns into a support-wizard who casts hastes on the party, greater invis on the sniper rogue, fly on the melee etc., we can create a synergy that will be stronger than their group of uber-individuals.

You all make what you want, and I'll be a primary arcane caster that I will be designed to support you in ways that will rock our foes. This means I won't be nuking, of course but that probably isn't what we need.

Honestly, I think that is how the Tower would work anyhow.

@GM - Should we go with average gold per level as we re-build?

Will address most of this later tonight but a couple of things:
If the bodies cannot be recovered (which is most likely) this will take the one free true resurrection. If they can be then 5k for a raise dead would be sufficient.

I'm not looking to add any more players to the game as I do need it to end eventually, however, the rebellion group fizzled out and one of the players just asked me if there was an opening in another group. I've directed her (him? not sure on the actual players gender, but their character in that group was female) to the discussion thread here.

Tech level on guns is "Emerging".

Take the standard wealth for a 7th level character (23,500gp).

Hey guys! As the GM said, I was in one of the groups that fell apart. I would like to join you guys if you will have me. This is my current character. I can level her as is or rebuild her to fit your plans. Our group never got into combat, so she hasn't been battle tested.

Edit: I just read about Tomlin's idea to maybe do a DF Dervish. I would be happy to make a new character. I actually wouldn't mind a fresh start.

@Kitrina: Welcome! Just my take, but you'd be a great addition. I'm really back and forth between a DF Dervish vs. Summoner. If you'd like to keep the PC you have that is all good. Just let me/us know.

My previous group were all RPers. I was definitely the only one that was somewhat optimized. From reading the last few comments on here and the last few pages of game play, I may re-roll more optimized. I love RPing though, so I will not leave that off. I will throw something together tonight and see if you guys like it. I am thinking divine hunter(Is anyone going to be evil?)/bard archer, alchemist bomber/archer, or zen archer. If Tenro chooses a ranged build, I am open for something else. I could do a summoner or melee alchemist.

So to summarize:
1) Serilina-arcane caster
2) Iam fighter
3) Tomlin-DF Dervish or summoner
4) Tenro-shadow caster, spellslinger, or sniper rogue

Hmmmmm...may need a divine caster...

Welcome!

We have been very RP centric until our PvP showed that some level of optimization is necessary. A pure cleric would be welcome! Otherwise your character looks OK but since you were Rebellion you might want to rebuild as we have been playing rather hard-core pro-Tower.

@Kitrina: Wow, that's actually a damn fine character you built there. Eerie-ly close to what my DF Dancer concept had been. You sure you don't want to keep that? Really, I have a number of different ideas, and the DF Dancer you made would kick some serious butt!

As you might have seen from the Game thread, we are in the final stages of a 3rd degree beat-down at the hands of one of the other groups. This iteration of PC's actually did have several LE types, but that might not be true for Mageocracy 2.0. We probably should check everyone's ideas before a Paladin is brought in. If you don't want to keep your DF dancer, straight cleric is never a bad idea, nor is a DPS-centric archer type if Tenro goes another direction.

A bit off-topic...so Rebellion died out? That's kind of sad. Thought that would be our big nemesis.

They had a really group of players. They were just all passive posters. There was no one to drive the story. I tried for a bit, but I was added later and felt like I should follow more since I wasn't an original group member.

Really good group of players

I dont really want to use emerging guns so im leaning towards sniper rogue. Especially if new Serelina will jave improved invisibility.

unless ACG is allowed, which I at least assume is a no.

Check this out (not nearly finished)

Ranged +1 composite longbow +13 1d8+4+4d6+5 (+5 more if within 30 feet) and can add DC 18 Reflex entangled and glued to the floor or cold with staggered condition. Has formula that gives +4 to will saves. With shield and false life, AC is 22 and HP are 58+7+1d10

Damage: 1d8 + 4d6 + 9 + 5 ⇒ (2) + (6, 3, 1, 6) + 9 + 5 = 32

Heck...Looking at that last fight, multiple snipers would have been awesome. I am thinking about changing focused shot for rapid shot to get an extra bow shot.

I don't have to go with this. I just like playing around with builds.