How can I discourage my players from going to fight a monster that is very likely to TPK them?


Advice

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So last night the players were in a city (Lita) where a strange fog moved in. The city is on a large lake so fog isn't uncommon, but the citizens were remarking that the fog was thicker than normal and was getting thicker as the day progressed. One of the players even joked OOC that a huge monster was probably going to attack the city.

The players had business in another city (Leustean) in the same country (this is a homebrew game) so teleported to Leustean to spend the evening and next day attending to their business. Once they were done there they teleported to a third city (Enescu) to do some stuff there and learned that Lita had in fact been attacked by a giant monster that evening. So they teleported to Lita and saw the monster had destroyed about 15% of the city - mostly around the wharf - before it was driven back into the lake. Unfortunately it was driven back due to the sacrifice of an ally. They were unable to recover their ally's body, so right now are looking at requiring a True Resurrection to revive her.

So, the players have been considering going after this monster. Therein lies the concern, as the monster is an advanced mythic tarn linnorm, CR 23. The party of six PCs are all level 13 (and NOT mythic; mythic creatures in my game are all extremely rare and this would be the first one they fight. The players aren't even aware that I'm even using the mythic rules in my game). And just to add to the possible degree of difficultly, the PCs are considering attacking it while it's underwater, since they think it's in the lake somewhere.

The linnorm is actually a local legend so they were able to do a little research and have been informed by a scholar that the creature is likely a tarn linnorm, and that tarn linnorms are among the strongest linnorms, and this one in particular, called Sarpelecului, is according to legend the spawn of one of the four ancient beast gods of this world.

I thought that would be enough in-game hints to dissuade the PCs from going after the thing, but they're still considering it. So I'm trying to think of more ways to give them hints as to just how strong this thing is without being ham-fisted about about it. Ideas?


Well, there's always the old rumor mill. Dropping something like "The creature that lives in the lake? It can only be killed by the sword of the true king" (which need not be true, but if the PCs believe it they might go looking for the sword). You'd hope "it's one of the ancient god beasts of the world" would be enough to dissuade genre savvy players, but at least you can give them other stuff they think they need to do in order to set things up so they can kill the lake monster.

There's also the classic example from Rise of the Runelords where you pit the PCs against something way out of their weight class, but in a context where it's not a straight up fight. The monster has other goals in mind (like eating a schoolhouse full of tasty children) whereas the PCs can get hailed as heroes for just distracting the beast long enough to get away.

Dark Archive

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It sounds like the players are mistaking a monster that should be an eventual foe 10 or so levels from now for an adventure hook that they should actively pursue now. I have a few thoughts about this.

I would empower the players to make an informed decision about approaching this monster. Have them encounter the high-level survivors of a failed attempt to attack the monster. (They can't be the only one who want justice after it ate 15% of the city.) These survivors should be traumatized and describe in detail the awful details of what happened to them despite being powerful warriors. In addition, have the local elder describe the long history and legends of all of the visiting heroes who have been eaten and maimed by this monster. Let the elder advise them that he doesn't think that they're anywhere near the league of this monster...not without more training, better weapons, and spells. Also have them encounter the aftermath of another battle between the monster and another clearly ferocious beast...which has been torn to shreds.

However, this is a game of risk followed by rewards and/or consequences. You can leave hints, clues, or encouragement, but don't railroad the players or pigeonhole them into certain outcomes. If they can't be dissuaded from taking this monster head-on, well, that's their choice. Maybe they'll surprise you. Or maybe they'll get eaten.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
You'd hope "it's one of the ancient god beasts of the world" would be enough to dissuade genre savvy players, but at least you can give them other stuff they think they need to do in order to set things up so they can kill the lake monster.

IDK depending on the Character and RP for that character you might just get the "Challenge Accepted" attitude.

Sure I Might die but it will be LEGEND- Wait for it- ARY.


You may just want to be prepared to resurrect them.


The above advice by Slithy is quite good. As an addendum to it you could have the survivors or local elder mention that the beast has survived being subjected to specific spells (or even barrages of spells); which happen to be equal to or higher level than the party can cast. This can help clue system-savvy players in to the fact that this monster is way more powerful than they are.
For example, if the creature survived a barrage of ten Fireballs the players can calculate out-of-character that this monster has at least 175 HP, and possibly as much as 350 HP.


I'd second the idea of a proposing a quest first. Presumably you want them to fight it later so why not direct them in that direction.
There is a tendency to assume that the GM has put it there for you to fight so a hint to the contrary should be enough.


a Famed adventurer wanders into town and over hears the party in a local bar, get's into an argument that they shouldn't get in his way, fight breaks out and he wipes the floor with the party. Next the party, while recovering, hear that the same Famed adventurer was found in pieces in the remains of a building near the dock next evening...


I'm going with the majority here in voting that you don't have to make them avoid the inevitable TPK fight. Just don't make it a "real" fight.

While it's quite clear on your side of the screen that they're not powerful enough, they as players aren't aware of that sort of issue until they either A. see it in action, usually against themselves, or B. roll 60+ on their Knowledge checks (which it appears they basically did since they researched it thoroughly). Or C. metagame and look at the creature's stats and compare it to their own.

Personally, I'd suggest that if the PCs still want to go after the beast, that they assemble a task force to retrieve the dead ally, with a commander significantly more powerful than a given PC (perhaps with ties to the ally, and when he sees the creature, charges it with reckless abandon). When the creature basically one-shots the commander, and then absolutely slaughters the remaining men, they'll see first-hand how powerful it is, and from there it's left to their adventuring instincts to either run and fight it another day, or stay and continue to be part of the creature's three-course-meal. Hell, you can even have it nibble one of the PCs for minimum damage and see how easily they can be dropped by the creature, for a more hands-on experience for them to "enjoy."

Needless to say, if PCs have a death wish, you as GM don't have to sit there and circumvent it for the sake of continuity; it defeats the purpose of being adventurers, braving dangers that are an actual threat, and realizing that sometimes there isn't a happy ending for every adventurer. (Because if there was, nobody would be a merchant, bar owner, farmer, and so on, since there's no upside to being any of those in comparison to being an adventurer.)

Of course, one other subject you haven't brought up yet was a quest to get a Macguffin to weaken/nerf the beast to a more adequate power level (i.e. remove its mythic capabilities), which will both A. get them to not focus on fighting the monster right away, and B. give them more experience so they're at a more adequate level to fight said monster. However, if you aren't in the mood to create a side-quest for them to fight a nerfed "BBEG," then a simple "let the chips fall where they may" approach is more than acceptable to convey the point you're trying to make, which is "You can't screw with this creature just yet."

Shadow Lodge

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Quote:
How can I discourage my players from going to fight a monster that is very likely to TPK them?

You can't.


Players can make a wisdom check to access a threat. Or a knowledge check. Doesn't take much to realize you're out gunned. Be clear when you say "you realize this beast is more than you can safely take on."


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TOZ wrote:
Quote:
How can I discourage my players from going to fight a monster that is very likely to TPK them?
You can't.

Well, you can; after the first time*.

* Some problems are self correcting :D


When they get close, make them roll a will save to keep from soiling themselves.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Xexyz wrote:
I thought that would be enough in-game hints to dissuade the PCs from going after the thing, but they're still considering it. So I'm trying to think of more ways to give them hints as to just how strong this thing is without being ham-fisted about about it. Ideas?

This has mostly been already covered, but:

1) Expand on some of the "local legends" to highlight how dangerous Sarpelecului is (slaying a god-blooded hero, destroying armies, killing archmagi and patriarchs, etc.). Depending on the players' backgrounds, they may not consider that the linnorm is above the "APL appropriate CR" for them to face; some players are used to campaigns/environments where they can't encounter foes unless they can fight them with a decent chance of winning.

2) If they don't take the hint, give them a chance to run away during the fight; however, also be prepared to TPK the party if they attack and don't retreat. Actions have consequences, something that players should keep in mind during the game. Otherwise, they may start treating the game world and NPCs as something that "doesn't matter" compared to their PCs; or slip into sloppy habits because "the GM will keep us from getting killed, even if we do something stupid."


Make sure they know the monster is very dangerous and probably above their paygrade.

If they still want to challange it let them and see what happens.

Make sure it is entirely their own decision and highlight the fact they may very well all die if they choose to face the creature.

If they get TPKed it's on them.


You can have some of the elders and other legends mention that, while the ancient beast awakens rarely (however often that is; I hope it's not much, otherwise stop living there), and does cause some devastation (15%), in the past when people tried to get revenge, stop it, or go after it... they all died and then it came back for 75% more in a rage.

Have them recommend that the best course is to let the matter lie and leave well-enough alone. Treat it as a natural disaster and just rebuild the 15% of the town destroyed.(which was probably mostly the wharf and dock area anyway.) If the PCs continue to insist, have the townspeople treat them like people about to set off the equivalent of a bomb in their city.

A shame about their ally, but you can also mention that maybe his sacrifice drew off the beast and saved more of the city. In his case, they can at least true resurrect him, if he wants to return. If it gets to hard... someone finds his hand wash up on the lakeshore with an identifying signet ring or something and they can go from there with a simpler resurrection technique. And then their ally tells them not to try going after the beast.

But in the end, if they insist, you've made every effort to give them a fair chance to learn, it wasn't like you attacked them with it.


Here's an idea Linnorms are similar to dragons. Dragons are vain arrogant creatures. Have the PCs challenge him and let them attempt to hurt him. They might depending on their abilities and equipment. I sense they won't hit hardly ever and the chances of one shotting him remote. His saves should be high enough to shrug off most spells the PCs have.
The point should be they are barely hurting him at all. If they actually do pick a character and have him go one full attack on him. It probably will kill that character. That should be a clue they at not ready for this guy at all. I'd suggest the toughest guy so it's clear he can and will if they keep pushing it kill them all within four rounds of combat.
I'd avoid having the Linnorm taunt them that will make them stay and fight. Most players have fragile egos so a monster taunting them to run home to momma will just make them mad and stay and fight because the monster insulted them.


Why did Sarpelecului attack Lita right now anyway? That might influence events.

I second the idea of eyewitness accounts from powerful warriors emphasizing the danger.

You don't need to let them find Sarpelecului. It's a big lake. Let them hunt for him and search all to no avail. Since he's mythic, give him constant or ongoing spell effects that prevent precise divination. Alternately, you can make divination dangerous -- say, if they succeed on a divination spell targeting Sarpelecului, allow it to work, but have the caster roll a stiff will save or take some serious INT drain.

I would allow things like Legend Lore and Vision to work, but give them evocative story stuff that emphasizes how incredibly dangerous and powerful he is.

Ultimately, you are in control of whether they can find enough information to locate Sarpelecului. If they can't find him, they can't fight him.

If you go this route, you might want to distract them with other events. They might want to hunt down Sarpelecului, but will they still be willing to do so if it means that they can't deal with an invading army, or some other crisis better suited to their level and abilities?


Also note: if so far you have never given them a too-dangerous-to-fight foe, then they may not be ready for the idea that some foes are just way too rough. 13 levels of "the GM never gives us anything too tough to fight" trains players to accept everything as an adventure hook for fighting killable stuff, instead of learning to look out for dire warnings.

if any of the PCs are in the good graces of their deity, this might be a good time for a warning vision or divine messenger. Or maybe have a powerful outsider show up to help the PCs, and then have the tarn linnorm one-shot it or something.


There might be some NPCs in town who might not like the idea of the players irritating the beast and putting the other 85% at risk. A few words from the local authorities might be enough to convince them it's a bad idea for several reasons.


have it kill a group of npc's 5+ levels higher than them should be the message across that they have 0 chance of fighting it just make sure the party knows of some of the npc groups accomplishments like slaying that cr 18 dragon ect.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Well, you could just TPK them. They'll learn, hopefully.


Hit them with the breath weapon once and see if they run. At their level they will probably survive but it should get the point across.

Grand Lodge

Honestly leading them away on a quest to find the blade of dragon slaying works better organically and would give the players more fun. Have the blade the the possession of a powerful (but not as powerful) true dragon for them to slay. This acts as a litmus test of their abilities.


Balancer wrote:
Honestly leading them away on a quest to find the blade of dragon slaying works better organically and would give the players more fun. Have the blade the the possession of a powerful (but not as powerful) true dragon for them to slay. This acts as a litmus test of their abilities.

Or set up perhaps a chain of quests. Maybe the legendary weapon is a holy relic. Or unholy :) Or ... maybe it's a legendary weapon because who the hell knows how to use a gnome hooked hammer in your party?

But yeah, don't forget to look at why you had the monster show up too. What are they meant to do with that thing in the long term? Peak-of-campaign foe? Nemesis to swear revenge against? Political ally?


Give the creature Frightful Presence. An ancient red dragon has a dc 27, your Linnorm could easily get a DC into the mid 30s, or whatever you want it to be if you aren't one of those people who think that monsters have to be built by the rules. Yes, I know Linnorms do not have this ability, no reason this one can't.


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Alright, I've read through all the responses and see some common ideas, which I'll address:

Have some stronger NPCs attack it and get killed / have local elders tell the PCs stories of how it's killed legendary champions of the past: I like this idea the best, since it's the easiest for me to incorporate. I think part of the problem is the PCs haven't done much asking about how the attack unfolded and have been led to believe it was just their ally and a bunch of scrubs who were fighting it. I hope they to more information gathering around town because then they'll learn it was their ally, the head clerics of the local faiths, some strong warriors among the town guard, and spellcasters from the local wizard's guild that fought it, and they were only able to drive it off.

Have the PCs undertake a quest for a macguffin to defeat it: I'd rather not as they've got a more important task to complete right now and don't want to distract them with another find-the-macguffin-artifact-quest.

I haven't mollycoddled the PCs either in this campaign; each of the PCs has died at least once. On the other hand despite that they're still a bit cocky and don't always take their opponents seriously. They killed a crag linnorm recently without much trouble, but that particular linnorm was only CR 14 - an appropriate (and easy because 6 v 1) EPL encounter since there are 6 PCs. I don't think they realize just how much more powerful this one is, but it's a reasonable position to take because my players are very good about not meta-gaming; the party understandably reasons that the one linnorm they killed wasn't much of a threat, so how much stronger could this one be?

As far as why Sarpelecului woke up and attacked, it's because the world is changing on a fundamental level. Since my campaign started back in 2012, I've been incorporating new material as it's been released. Most has been pretty seamless; since the new classes from the Advanced Class Guide are hybrids of existing classes it was reasonable to assume they all existed and the PCs have just had never encountered any prior to the ACG. Occult Adventures is different since it introduces an entirely new kind of magic. Since two of my PCs are followers of the God of Magic in my world, it would seem a bit odd for them to have never heard of it but presume it always existed.

So this is my solution. The world is changing on a fundamental level, and the awakening of Sarpelecului is just an omen for this change. In the not-so far away future in my game world, the occult classes are going to start appearing.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Typically, anything you do just makes this behavior worse. If they are determined to fight one of the ancient beast gods of the world, what exactly can you add to that? Probably the best you can do is have all the NPCs tell them how mad they are, and maybe name some of the adult gold dragons that have been slain by linnorms in the past.

But when it comes down to it, some people just need to learn this lesson the hard way. :)


Another thing you can try is having it summon up some servants to get rid of some "pests".


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:


I hope they to more information gathering around town because then they'll learn it was their ally, the head clerics of the local faiths, some strong warriors among the town guard, and spellcasters from the local wizard's guild that fought it, and they were only able to drive it off.

I would suggest you say they were UNABLE to drive it off. It killed everyone, took a desired prize, ate part of a building, and left after it got bored. Let them know that the town's surviving spellcasters and knights left, and did not return until the linnorm left.

Also, it's worth noting that linnorm lairs are generally hard to get to. Just make the lair really difficult to get to. Once they have a taste of how tough things are that aren't the linnorm, maybe they will be less overconfident.


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Have them help clear some rubble and open a pocket of the poison gas that results from the acid breath. DC 32 fortitude save should give them pause for thought.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Alternatively, if it is a Mythic opponent, you could use their impending demise as the 'trigger' for becoming Mythic through any of a number of means.


I think I'm not seeing the connection between opening up Occult stuff and Sarpelucci.

I think one problem is that the omen seems to have hit the party where it kind'a hurt. They may have some vengeance on their minds, and see Sarpy there not as a harbinger of new stuff but of an actual enemy meant to be interacted with.

One heavy question: is the party EVER supposed to deal with this thing?


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If they don't listed to phrases like "one of the ancient beast gods of the world", then they deserve whatever happens to them.

Especially if that outcome is a TPK which prevents resurrection.

On the upside, you can then time-jump a little to have allowed the occult stuff to emerge, making it an option for new characters.


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Run the game and let the dice fall where they will. Once their all dead they wake up from their prophetic warning dream. Now fully aware of what will happen to them.

Thanking the gods for their revelation.


If you really wanna mess with their heads write little note cards that they can't open till their dead that says you wake up but keep it quiet till everyone else does.


If all else fails, just kill their frontliner in one round and let the rest of them run easy.

They're level 13 - they can easily have the frontliner raised.


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TOZ wrote:
Quote:
How can I discourage my players from going to fight a monster that is very likely to TPK them?
You can't.

Actually, it's pretty simple to discourage them by telling them out-of-character "It's a CR 23 monster".

In character, it might be hard to discourage them though.


I like Hogarth xD


I think hogarth has the right idea. I am a big fan of just telling the players OOC so it's clear.

It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. Sometimes, despite all our best intentions and careful planning, people put clues together in the wrong ways or just get hung up on the wrong details. Rather than mess up the campaign by getting a bunch of characters killed out of a sense of verisimilitude, just tell them as the GM that this course of action is way, way, way out of their league.

After that message has been delivered, then agree on some in-game event that the characters can use to justify their change of course, whether it be divine inspiration in a dream, a harrowing from a fortune teller, or whatnot. But do that after it's already clear to them what's going on.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You could just make it clear that its colossal sized linnorm.

I mean, colossal creatures are barely smaller than kaiju sized <_< That should be rather big red flag. I mean, yeah, the previous one was gargantuan, but colossal creatures are kinda rare


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Another option might be for them to go looking for the legend, but to instead encounter one of its stunted spawn. Make this creature more to their CR so they can beat it, but with the need for them to basically use all their resources to do so.

Then make it clear that this creature they could barely beat was a pale shadow of its progenitor. That should give them the appropriate caution.


One of the issues is that the rumor mill is hard to calibrate. there are only so many words to describe how powerful something is, so it can be hard to judge what things are simply boss monsters, and what things are TPK's.

My solution? Telling them out of game. When they see something out of their weight class, i.e. CR 6 or so over the party, I tell them.


Yeah, I agree with the other folk that a simple "Real talk guys: Do not engage Lu Bu" is probably for the best. Some players take IC hints, yours seem to be cut from the cloth that "if it exists, it's handily within our ability to kill it,"

Nothing wrong with that, but losing a campaign over that logic is pretty naff.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Yeah, I agree with the other folk that a simple "Real talk guys: Do not engage Lu Bu" is probably for the best. Some players take IC hints, yours seem to be cut from the cloth that "if it exists, it's handily within our ability to kill it,"

Nothing wrong with that, but losing a campaign over that logic is pretty naff.

I find that having to explicitly tell the players out-of-character to not engage a certain creature defeats the purpose of providing an authentic adventuring experience, and is railroading the campaign just for the sake of continuity, something that can equally irk players. (After all, there are several threads and posts that point out this very same flaw: Railroading is bad, unoriginal, and if I wanted to railroad I'd play a Diablo game.)

For an authentic adventuring experience, biting off more than you can chew should be something that not only you as players should learn, but is also something that realistically happens to a lot of adventurers. See that bed of bones next to the dragon? Those were probably all adventurers who thought they could just waltz in, take all of the dragon's s#!^, and waltz back out with the dragon being A-OK of having his stuff taken. Or, they could be Dragonslayers who just weren't cut out for defeating a dragon of that caliber. Point is, those bed of bones that the dragon sleeps on is testament to numerous adventurers who underestimated their enemy's (or overestimated their own) capabilities.

Realistically, if the players do want to engage it, and do die, even after the GM has dropped multiple in-game hints that the creature is well above their paygrade, then their death should not only be deserved, but also demonstrates that not everything that's adversarial to them in the GM's world can be (or even should be) killed. It could even potentially result in creating new characters to follow-up on the sidequests to eventually defeat the creature that the previous adventurers thought was killable without some special Macguffin.


RJGrady wrote:
Quote:


I hope they to more information gathering around town because then they'll learn it was their ally, the head clerics of the local faiths, some strong warriors among the town guard, and spellcasters from the local wizard's guild that fought it, and they were only able to drive it off.

I would suggest you say they were UNABLE to drive it off. It killed everyone, took a desired prize, ate part of a building, and left after it got bored. Let them know that the town's surviving spellcasters and knights left, and did not return until the linnorm left.

Also, it's worth noting that linnorm lairs are generally hard to get to. Just make the lair really difficult to get to. Once they have a taste of how tough things are that aren't the linnorm, maybe they will be less overconfident.

I like this, personally. Hints that people more powerful than the PCs were defeated easily. Then a difficult-to-find lair.

The other thing I'd do (depending on the world lore) is to have some kind of guardian-lieutenant who was several levels above the PCs - a kind of "super tough" fight, just in the middle of the on-the-way-to-the-dragon trek. My players would very likely do exactly this kind of thing but I think they'd pause for thought if the BBEG's lackey nearly wipes them out.


Louise Bishop wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
You'd hope "it's one of the ancient god beasts of the world" would be enough to dissuade genre savvy players, but at least you can give them other stuff they think they need to do in order to set things up so they can kill the lake monster.

IDK depending on the Character and RP for that character you might just get the "Challenge Accepted" attitude.

Sure I Might die but it will be LEGEND- Wait for it- ARY.

Lmao


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


I find that having to explicitly tell the players out-of-character to not engage a certain creature defeats the purpose of providing an authentic adventuring experience, and is railroading the campaign just for the sake of continuity, something that can equally irk players. (After all, there are several threads and posts that point out this very same flaw: Railroading is bad, unoriginal, and if I wanted to railroad I'd play a Diablo game.)

For an authentic adventuring experience, biting off more than you can chew should be something that not only you as players should learn, but is also something that realistically happens to a lot of adventurers. See that bed of bones next to the dragon? Those were probably all adventurers who thought they could just waltz in, take all of the dragon's s#!^, and waltz back out with the dragon being A-OK of having his stuff taken. Or, they could be Dragonslayers who just weren't cut out for defeating a dragon of that caliber. Point is, those bed of bones that the dragon sleeps on is testament to numerous adventurers who underestimated their enemy's (or overestimated their own) capabilities.

Realistically, if the players do want to engage it, and do die, even after the GM has dropped multiple in-game hints that the creature is well above their paygrade, then their death should not only be deserved, but also demonstrates that not everything that's adversarial to them in the GM's world can be (or even should be) killed. It could even potentially result in creating new characters to follow-up on the sidequests to eventually defeat the creature that the previous adventurers thought was killable without some...

I really don't get people's hangups with railroading. Paizo makes its living off railroads (APs and modules) and frankly, many groups function better with a more structured (Or *gasp* railroaded) adventure whether due to personality type, lack of experience, or laziness. Yes, there's numerous ways to handle this IC, but if this group is accustomed to things like CRPGs where everything is indeed manageable at their handy level, they aren't going to bite and they'll get wiped barring the GM playing his primordial beast oddly easy. Did the group lie in a grave of their own making? Yeah. Is that fun? Typically no, few players (or GMs for that matter) like having their campaigns abruptly end in that fashion and at the end of the day, this is a game people play for fun.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


I find that having to explicitly tell the players out-of-character to not engage a certain creature defeats the purpose of providing an authentic adventuring experience, and is railroading the campaign just for the sake of continuity, something that can equally irk players. (After all, there are several threads and posts that point out this very same flaw: Railroading is bad, unoriginal, and if I wanted to railroad I'd play a Diablo game.)

For an authentic adventuring experience, biting off more than you can chew should be something that not only you as players should learn, but is also something that realistically happens to a lot of adventurers. See that bed of bones next to the dragon? Those were probably all adventurers who thought they could just waltz in, take all of the dragon's s#!^, and waltz back out with the dragon being A-OK of having his stuff taken. Or, they could be Dragonslayers who just weren't cut out for defeating a dragon of that caliber. Point is, those bed of bones that the dragon sleeps on is testament to numerous adventurers who underestimated their enemy's (or overestimated their own) capabilities.

Realistically, if the players do want to engage it, and do die, even after the GM has dropped multiple in-game hints that the creature is well above their paygrade, then their death should not only be deserved, but also demonstrates that not everything that's adversarial to them in the GM's world can be (or even should be) killed. It could even potentially result in creating new characters to follow-up on the sidequests to eventually defeat the creature that the previous adventurers thought was killable without some...

I really don't get people's hangups with railroading. Paizo makes its living off railroads (APs and modules) and frankly, many groups function better with a more structured (Or *gasp* railroaded) adventure whether due to personality type, lack of experience, or laziness. Yes, there's numerous ways to handle...

The problem with the assumption that is railroading is that you're no-longer playing an open-ended adventure where the plot and character involvement matters, you're basically just "watching" a movie that could probably be accomplished better in a cinematic setting. Wide-open player interaction (and GM creativity) is the biggest source of fun in Pathfinder (and similar genre'd games), which also serves as its greatest advantage in terms of playing that sort of game compared to other games, and when you take that sort of concept away, you'd end up having more fun with linear-based video games due to how much better executed it is in terms of what you're wanting to get out of such an experience.

I'm not saying that railroading is inherently bad, all I'm saying is that railroading shouldn't feel "obvious" that it's happening. Railroading should be "optionalized," in that, if the players want to go down the basic path, then they can. But, if they want to do something different because they would have more fun that way, then they should be able to do that as well, and the game should be able to progress in a logical sequence that accommodates their experience.


It depends, has it been established beforehand that this is a sandbox campaign where players can't expect CRs to be matched to their level? If yes, let them fight it and die, that's just your delivering on the campaign premise.

If players are expecting a regular adventure where challenges are appropriately CRed, then either nerf the linorm or talk to them.

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