5th Edition Monster caster levels???


5th Edition (And Beyond)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Hi!

In 5th Edition, how do you determine the caster level of a monster in 5th Edition if it isn't listed?

Is it based on CR? HD? Extrapolated from the highest level spell it can cast?

It really only matters when dealing with cantrips, but some abilities (like Legendary Actions) let some things cast multiple cantrips in a round, and that can get significant.


I'd use HD rather than CR, and not just because of my screen name. In the stat blocks with a Spellcasting entry caster level matches HD, whereas CR doesn't map directly to any single mechanical feature in 5e.


Quote:

Innate Spellcasting

A monster  with  the  innate  ability  to  cast  spells  has
the  Innate  Spellcasting  special  trait.  Unless  noted
otherwise,  an  innate  spell  of  1st  level  or  higher  is
always  cast  at  its  lowest  possible  level  and  can’t  be
cast  at  a  higher  level.  If  a  monster  has  a  cantrip
where  its  level  matters  and  no  level  is  given,  use  the
monster’s  challenge  rating.

SRD-OGL, v1.1, page 261.


Hitdice wrote:
I'd use HD rather than CR, and not just because of my screen name. In the stat blocks with a Spellcasting entry caster level matches HD

Only in case of humanoid NPCs. Monsters can have very wide range of spellcasting level, CR, and HD... E.g. Androsphinx: 19 HD, Cr 19, cast spells as 12th level caster...

Quote:
whereas CR doesn't map directly to any single mechanical feature in 5e.

CR is used in place of level for monsters when calculating proficiency bonuses.


Nice catch with the Innate Spellcasting, I'd missed that one this early in the morning. However, the spell level of your example matches neither the HD or CR, so I'm sticking with "all over the place." :P

Design question: do you think monsters at the upper end of the scale (proficiency +7 to +9, CR 21 to 30) should get higher caster level effects?


Take into account that, except for cantrip power there is no such thing as caster level as understood in 3rd edition/Pathfinder (or at least I haven't seen any effect that would scale with caster level). The spellcasting level sole function, as far as I can recall, is to determine number of daily spell slots (though this decides the highest level of spell available, and in extension allows for increased damage, duration, and/or number of targets for certain spells) but it has meaning only for creatures that prepare and cast spells like classes. It seems to be completely irrelevant for innate spellcasting and thus it is not listed in the stat blocks. Have anyone noticed any effect for which "caster level" would be relevant that I have missed?

The effectiveness of individual spells (attack rolls and saving throw DC) is calculated with the use of proficiency bonus, which is derivative of CR anyway.


I think Drejk answered it. With Spellcasting the caster level is always given and with Innate Spellcasting it functions as explained in the quote.

When you are making your own monster/NPC with Spellcasting, use whichever caster level you deem appropriate based on how powerful the monster's/NPC's magic is supposed to be.

Sovereign Court

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CR and monsters maps to PCs and character levels for proficiency bonuses, so I think that is why they use it for cantrip "caster level". Just my guess.

For what its worth, even NPC casters don't match their HD with caster levels all the time. I believe that druids, for instance, are mismatched.


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Drejk wrote:

Take into account that, except for cantrip power there is no such thing as caster level as understood in 3rd edition/Pathfinder (or at least I haven't seen any effect that would scale with caster level). The spellcasting level sole function, as far as I can recall, is to determine number of daily spell slots (though this decides the highest level of spell available, and in extension allows for increased damage, duration, and/or number of targets for certain spells) but it has meaning only for creatures that prepare and cast spells like classes. It seems to be completely irrelevant for innate spellcasting and thus it is not listed in the stat blocks. Have anyone noticed any effect for which "caster level" would be relevant that I have missed?

The effectiveness of individual spells (attack rolls and saving throw DC) is calculated with the use of proficiency bonus, which is derivative of CR anyway.

Actually, now that you mention it, cantrips scale to character level for mutliclass characters and the Magic Initiate feat, so I think caster level is just the wrong terminology to use with 5e, like negative hit points.

I mean I'm still to pig-headed to admit I was wrong about the HD thing, but that's my problem.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I just came across a CR monster with 15 HD, so CR and HD have almost no relationship to each other.

I wish they had scaled cantrips to proficiency bonus, like 2d6 at 1st level, 3d6 at 5th, 4d6 at 9th, 5d6 at 13th, and 6d6 at 17th. It looks like they tied them to Tiers of Play, so I understand why they did what they did.

Doesn't mean I agree with it. I DO understand it might have been necessary to keep the cantrip damage in line with weapon damage at those levels (Fighters get Extra Attacks at levels 5 and 11, for example. And 20th.).


SmiloDan wrote:
I just came across a CR monster with 15 HD, so CR and HD have almost no relationship to each other.

In 5th edition monster HD only determines number of hit points (and possibly a number of healing surges hit dice that can be used to heal oneself during short rests, though I am not sure if that applies to monsters).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I meant CR 1 with 15 HD.


Which monster was that exactly, Dan? It just sounds totally unbalanced.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

It's from the Tome of Beasts. Leshy, page 272.


15 HD is a bit much, it will have a lot of hit points extending the fight considerably.

The core rules have numerous HD 4-5 monsters with CR 1 and they work fine (animated armor, I am looking at you), with the highest HD for CR 1 monster being 8, I think.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I think 5th Edition monster design is a bit different than PF.

First off, CR means a significant challenge for a party of that level, not just an average challenge.

Secondly, it seems to me that 5th Edition monsters are better designed to work and fight in groups. This is probably due to bounded accuracy, as even low level monsters can still be effective (ie hit on a non-Natural 20!) at even high levels.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Yeah, it looks like the Leshy is designed to be a long fight. AC 14, tons of hit points, 2 rather weak attacks, and some spells that help with battlefield control.

They're also described as mischief makers, so they might harry a group or settlement for several game hours during play.


What size it is? Because monster HD dice type is tied to its size, smaller creatures have less hit points than big ones.

Leshy being CR 1 is a bit... Wonky...

Oh, wait, Pathfinder made them into druid companion gourds and fungi...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The 3pp 5th Ed Leshy is totally different. Basically a dude in the woods with some plant powers and the ability make himself LOOK really big or really small.

Medium sized (15d8+Con stuff).

I'm not really familiar with the Leshy other than this new book, but they sound familiar. Are they used in optimized builds somehow in PF?


I was referring to leshys being mythological creatures from my region, almost always considered quite powerful entities, definitely far above CR 1.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Yeah, I think they're on the powerful side for CR 1, and their fluff in 5th Edition is they are tricksters, so maybe they pretend they are more powerful than they really are. They can appear to be Gargantuan or Tiny, but it's just an illusion. Lots of spells, but nothing overwhelming. Just versatile and tricksy and they have good staying power, so they can USE all their different powers and stuff, but they cause relatively low damage, so the PCs will also survive to witness their greatness.


Okay, the Leshy from Tome of Beasts is open of those UNIQUE CASES where the hit dice far, far out pace the CR of monster. Like, alot. Also, the Leshy's at will abilities are spells of various levels, not cantrips, so yeesh, don't ask me.

If I had to reverse engineer it, I'd say that the proficiency bonus and the CR are obviously 1st level, but the hit dice and innate magic are just screwy. If it's a first level party, have mercy, if its a fifth level party, just totally own them with a CR 1 monster.

Look, Drejk, at least this illustration of the Leshy looks like an actual wild man of the forest, okay? As often as not, the art is picture of a ambulatory plant like a Treant or a Shambling Mound, and I, who knows very, very little about Russian folklore am all, "That's not what a Leshy looks like, their feet are suppose to walk backwards." :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I think the Leshy is designed for long encounters. Its attacks are relatively minor, its AC isn't crazy high, but it has tons of hit points.

Sovereign Court

It's a weird creature design. It almost needs a disclaimer that it shouldn't be the kind of monster you throw at players in multiples. Or maybe you do, but knowing that they soak damage like mad.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

It's weird, but I don't think it's unbalanced. Maybe it would be better with a lower Dexterity score, which would lower its AC and Dex saves.


SmiloDan wrote:
Yeah, I think they're on the powerful side for CR 1, and their fluff in 5th Edition is they are tricksters, so maybe they pretend they are more powerful than they really are. They can appear to be Gargantuan or Tiny, but it's just an illusion. Lots of spells, but nothing overwhelming. Just versatile and tricksy and they have good staying power, so they can USE all their different powers and stuff, but they cause relatively low damage, so the PCs will also survive to witness their greatness.

I think the CR 1 might be an error. Even before you factor in its Innate Spellcasting its numbers add up to a CR 2. But yes, it definitely makes for protracted battles. On average a leshy would need 14 rounds to beat another leshy to death.

The number of HD is not at all indicative of CR. If you have a 1 HD gargantuan creature with say 18 Con, it already has 14 HP. A tiny creature with 8 con, needs 18 HD to get to the same number.

While i've been working on my monster supplement, I noticed a few times, when I was converting small and tiny creatures with CRs significantly above 1, that they just inevitably have buckets of HD unless they have a high Con.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Yeah, that size-based HD is a neat design feature, but it seems like they don't use it for anything. Maybe if there was a mechanic besides the short rest to use HD, the size of the HD would be more significant. As it stands, you can design a monster and totally ignore its hit dice and just give it a bunch of hit points based on its CR.

Sovereign Court

This is pretty much true.


I agree, but it would bother me if they didn't have HD, so I'm glad they exist..


I'm fine with monsters having HD; it standardizes both monster and player healing between encounters, though it's important to the equation that you regain only half your spent HD after a long rest.


Though the only monsters for whom this becomes relevant on anything resembling a frequent basis, are familiars and beast companions and perhaps the odd NPC monster accompanying the party.

You would have to fight a monster until it runs very frequently for resting to make a difference, especially the long rest HD regain.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Maybe monsters should have Inspiration, and they can spend it as a bonus action to spend some hit dice?

Or something???

Sovereign Court

I'm ok with that. Legendary actions could even let you do that, perhaps?


I don't think you need to add a justification for monster HD. Just the fact that there might be a case where the pcs are travelling with any single monster for whatever reason and that it would need the HD for short rests is already a justification for their resistance, even if it is rare.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I know.

It just seems like such a waste of design space.

There are some Large creatures with 1d10+5 Hit Dice and some Tiny creatures with 4d4 Hit Dice, and they both have 10 hit points.

It seems like there should be something else to do with the different sized hit dice. Does it have anything to do with Constitution saving throws?

Poor Constitution only affects hit points and saving throws. There aren't any Constitution skill checks (and rare ability checks) or Constitution attack rolls. Very rarely, it's used to determine the DC of some monsters' special abilities. I wish there were more "fun" things to do with Constitution.

I do like that Constitution saving throws are used as the 3.5/PF Concentration checks. I just wish there were some skills using it, like maybe Endurance or Labor.

In literature and other media, there are lots of tough characters that can use their toughness proactively, but that doesn't seem to be the case in 5th Edition, or any of the Editions. Not even d20 Modern, and it had the Tough Hero base class.


I never really checked the monster manual for it, but I thought Con based save DCs were fairly common. While i've been converting monsters for my monster supplement, I actually ended up making quite a few of them.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I think in 5th Ed, it's "You can make the save DC be 8 + proficiency bonus + Con (or whatever) modifier if you want, or any other save DC you think will be fun."


It is. But I believe the official monsters actually have consistent math. Aside from the occasional double Proficiency bonus. Don't quote me on that. I might just be making this up. I've been having my nose in so many Monster Manuals, Fiend Folios and -onomicons from 3rd to 5th edition recently that I don't know anything anymore.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Me too! :-P

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