What to do with a Sandman (Bard)?

[Selvaxri]

Sandman (Bard Archetype)

I found this archetype interesting- being able to steal spells from any casters could be very entertaining, but losing the Inspire Courage and other pivotal Bardic abilities, definitely take this archetype out of the typical support role that standard bards fulfill. not to mention, without casters in the enemy ranks- he is almost useless.

So, my questions is-
Is this archetype worth playing?

If it is, how should a plan to build this character?

This is a possible PFS character, so keep that in mind

[Hmm]

No inspire and no bardic knowledge, but this still might make a pretty decent spell casting rogue substitute! And the sixth level slumber ability is very interesting as well. Yeah, I think you could make a go of this one, but treat the spell stealing as a situational thing that you'll get to do every other adventure.

Also, you'll still have the bard spell list which includes gems like glitterdust, bladed dash, good hope, tongues... You can still find ways to help your party.

Hmm

[Gisher]

One thing you might want to consider is Accomplished Sneak Attacker once you get Sneak Attack at 5th level.

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Gisher wrote:

One thing you might want to consider is Accomplished Sneak Attacker once you get Sneak Attack at 5th level.

...and then straight into Arcane Trickster after that!

[Atarlost]

It's worse in combat than a CRB rogue and isn't a full caster.

No, it's not worth playing.

[Ragoz]

I highly recommend a Conductive weapon so you can steal a spell each round while attacking. I've always thought about making this character but never quite got around to it.

[Cavall]

This was basically Paizo attempting to sneak a spell thief into the game. However, I don't really think it was done overly well in how it steals spells but only up to level 6 to cast.

The original class from 3.5 was actually really well done.

That being said, any characer that can be invisible and has sneak attack can be a big threat. Also you'll gain massive bonuses to spells against invisible opponents.

The slumber ability is great, and the trade off for bardic knowledge is fair.

I've also wanted to make one, just hate the limit on stealing spells they have. Still, you could steal an allies lesser restoration and use it, as an example of helping make the most of it.

I disagree with Atarlost, it's decent.

[Selvaxri]

Would this be a worthwhile splash class; or any classes worth splashing into?

I was considering what classes would be good with the steal-spell ability.
Would be interesting with Magus, and steal other spells to use in Spell Combat...

The Spellbreaker [Inquisitor archetype] seems like a interesting tandem class.
With the Foil Casting ability, and after they fail their concentration check, steal their spells to use against them.

I wonder if the Sacred Slayer stacks with the Spellbreaker...

[Atarlost]

Cavall wrote:

That being said, any characer that can be invisible and has sneak attack can be a big threat. Also you'll gain massive bonuses to spells against invisible opponents.

No, it really isn't. You'll break invisibility so you'll get one sneak attack at less than half the power of a rogue. A ninja is better at turning invisible and has more than twice the sneak attack dice.

Sneakspell is not adequate to overcome being only a 6 level caster. It puts your DCs where they should be at some levels, but it doesn't give you the spell slots needed to get away with not having any useful non-casting capabilities. Not massive advantages, merely being only bad at your job instead of useless. A sorcerer will out-cast an invisible sandman any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

The slumber ability is trash. You need to fascinate your targets first with all the weaknesses that ability has. And real bards get suggestion, which is more versatile and can even duplicate the effects of slumber. "Take a nap" is a valid suggestion since the targets can't be in a threatening situation or fascinate would have automatically failed.

Selvaxri wrote:

Would this be a worthwhile splash class; or any classes worth splashing into?

I was considering what classes would be good with the steal-spell ability.
Would be interesting with Magus, and steal other spells to use in Spell Combat...

The Spellbreaker [Inquisitor archetype] seems like a interesting tandem class.
With the Foil Casting ability, and after they fail their concentration check, steal their spells to use against them.

I wonder if the Sacred Slayer stacks with the Spellbreaker...

None. Casters don't multiclass well. Medium BAB classes don't multiclass well. Classes with scaling abilities that start weak don't multiclass well. And casters with different casting stats multiclass even worse.

[Selvaxri]

EvilTwinSkippy wrote:

Gisher wrote:

One thing you might want to consider is Accomplished Sneak Attacker once you get Sneak Attack at 5th level.

...and then straight into Arcane Trickster after that!

I do not see how that would be beneficial. Steal Spell is dependant on my Bard level, and I don't think Arcane Trickster counts as a bard.

Atarlost wrote:

Selvaxri wrote:

Would this be a worthwhile splash class; or any classes worth splashing into?

I was considering what classes would be good with the steal-spell ability.
Would be interesting with Magus, and steal other spells to use in Spell Combat...

The Spellbreaker [Inquisitor archetype] seems like a interesting tandem class.
With the Foil Casting ability, and after they fail their concentration check, steal their spells to use against them.

I wonder if the Sacred Slayer stacks with the Spellbreaker...

None. Casters don't multiclass well. Medium BAB classes don't multiclass well. Classes with scaling abilities that start weak don't multiclass well. And casters with different casting stats multiclass even worse.

Fair enough. I know the downsides to multiclassing med-bab classes, i have a U.Rogue/Warpriest.

Sounds like this archetype is a bust, for PFS. I'd rather not be a useless not-a-Rogue/Not-a-Bard in situations with no spellcasters to screw over.

Unless someone can agrue otherwise, QAPC.

[strayshift]

Enter night, exit light?

Sorry couldn't resist.

It's a bardic rogue substitute that (in my opinion) isn't as good at the rogue stuff as an Archaeologist Bard, but I don't think it is unplayable no.

The stealing of spells can screw over an enemy and the sleep performance (with no hit dice limit) cannot be a bad thing to have (and so rsarely used feats like ability focus become useful).

Likewise Spellsneak encourages stealthy casting and the sneak attack, etc can boost your combat role.

Overall I think it requires the player to THINK slightly differently and to be creative. I would look at a stealthy character that specialises in the sleep ability and offensive spells from a hidden position. You won't alsways get your way but it sounds like a viable character to me.

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Selvaxri wrote:

EvilTwinSkippy wrote:

Gisher wrote:

One thing you might want to consider is Accomplished Sneak Attacker once you get Sneak Attack at 5th level.

...and then straight into Arcane Trickster after that!

I do not see how that would be beneficial. Steal Spell is dependant on my Bard level, and I don't think Arcane Trickster counts as a bard.

The point is this is one of the few classes/archetypes that can solo straight the Arcane Trickster prestige class. If you're looking to play a trickster, this is pretty much your best shot.

Does losing progression on your Steal Spell hurt? Yeah sure, but nowhere near as much as losing BAB progression or spellcasting progression from multi-classing. Bard spells work pretty well for an Arcane Trickster too. Just add Acid Splash (w/ Two-World Magic) for some ranged touch sneak attack goodness.

[Atarlost]

EvilTwinSkippy wrote:

Selvaxri wrote:

EvilTwinSkippy wrote:

Gisher wrote:

One thing you might want to consider is Accomplished Sneak Attacker once you get Sneak Attack at 5th level.

...and then straight into Arcane Trickster after that!

I do not see how that would be beneficial. Steal Spell is dependant on my Bard level, and I don't think Arcane Trickster counts as a bard.

The point is this is one of the few classes/archetypes that can solo straight the Arcane Trickster prestige class. If you're looking to play a trickster, this is pretty much your best shot.

Why would you ever want to be an arcane trickster off this? Arcane Trickster is a terrible class and particularly bad to enter from bard. You don't have any of the low level touch spells a wizard AT can sneak attack with and you don't have the accuracy to hit with non-touch attacks because you're a mere 1 BAB above a wizard if you enter at level 5 with accomplished sneak attacker. Raising your sneak attack progression is a complete waste of time because by miring yourself in a half BAB PrC you're guaranteeing you'll never hit with it.

[ngc7293]

Take Gunslinger and name him Logan. Glue an Ioun stone (or something) to his left hand that flashes red. (right hand if you like the book better)

[Selvaxri]

EvilTwinSkippy wrote:

The point is this is one of the few classes/archetypes that can solo straight the Arcane Trickster prestige class. If you're looking to play a trickster, this is pretty much your best shot.

Does losing progression on your Steal Spell hurt? Yeah sure, but nowhere near as much as losing BAB progression or spellcasting progression from multi-classing. Bard spells work pretty well for an Arcane Trickster too. Just add Acid Splash (w/ Two-World Magic) for some ranged touch sneak attack goodness.

Um... why not cast stronger spells than a measly 0-spell?

I also do not see any benefit to this prestige class. Especially since this is a proposed PFS character, going 5 levels into Sandman, and another 5 into Arcane Trickster doesn't provide any substantial benefits.
And the progression loss to Steal Spell will hurt, since it is the primary draw of the archetype. Any caster above CR6 will most likely have a Will save higher than 17, even on low rolls.

ngc7293 wrote:

Take Gunslinger and name him Logan. Glue an Ioun stone (or something) to his left hand that flashes red. (right hand if you like the book better)

... ??? What does that have to do with this thread?

I don't see how a Gunslinger would help this archetype.
Thanks for the Spam.

I was considering possible the Snakebite Striker (Brawler archetype) as a level [possibly up to 3], but to what end?