Third Party Publisher self-publishing help


Product Discussion


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Hello, sometimes I've seen people commenting here that are part of Third Party Publishing companies, so my question is mostly for them, but obviously all the help is welcome. A friend and I are thinking of going the road of self publishing, under the assumption that we have several things in the works that could easily match the quality of the d20pfsrd store items we've seen so far, and we have all the skils needed to create content like that.

We both have our day jobs, but would like to think and try projecting our lives towards creating our own publishing company. Following that thinking, we found several ways of getting funding to our company, mostly from the public sector programs, but in any case they always expect to have at least some form of business plan.

In order for me to be able to create realistic business plan, I would need some information, that has proven hard to find. If you could help me to answer this questions, or point me in the right direction, that would be great.

How many 3PP sales are made a Year? from d20pfsrd? from driveThruRPG?
Is there market for publications with pricepoint over 5 USD? 10? 30?
What are the best channels to promote the publications? Paizo Forum?, Other 3PP?, Facebook? Twitter?
If you have self published:
Is it a full time job for the main participants?
How much time did it took you to break even?(reach a number of sales that was enough to pay your costs)
How is your preferred way to engage/find Illustrators? freelancer.com? envato.studio?

any help, on any of those points would be appreciated, even if you point me to an article, or links to read about it.
Thanks


1) For exact sales numbers, you could try asking the 3PP selling sites how many sales the average company gets. It really does vary based on what you're doing, though. I've heard that anything that sells more than 100 copies is something of a hit. (Stuff that gets crowdfunded on Kickstarter is a bit different, and can get a LOT more sales - but should also be relatively sizable.)

2) Yes, but the higher the cost, the better it needs to be. For example, Frog God Games routinely publishes stuff that costs over $100, but consists of absolutely fantastic stuff. In my experience, I think larger products may, in a way, be more likely to be successful - people who might hesitate to pick up a $2 PDF might jump at the chance for a $35 300-page hardcover. (Especially through crowdfunding, which can reduce a lot of the risk. Though, it also helps if people know who you are, first... XD)

3) All over the place. Visibility is a key aspect of getting sales. (It helps if you send stuff in for reviews, too. A good opinion from a notable reviewer like Endzeitgeist can help with your visibility.)

4) I know it's not a full-time job for everyone. Probably not most 3PP people, even. So... uh, don't quit your day job, unless and until you know it's safe to do so. Think of it as a second job, not your primary one.

5) Depends on the product. I remember that for the Northlands Saga Complete, they weren't even breaking even until somewhat past their initial funding goal (but did manage to surpass it nicely). Of course, that was kind of a huge book. You'll definitely need a publisher to note the exact timeframe.

6) Some people ask for illustrators here on Paizo.com.


GM Rednal wrote:

1) For exact sales numbers, you could try asking the 3PP selling sites how many sales the average company gets. It really does vary based on what you're doing, though. I've heard that anything that sells more than 100 copies is something of a hit. (Stuff that gets crowdfunded on Kickstarter is a bit different, and can get a LOT more sales - but should also be relatively sizable.)

2) Yes, but the higher the cost, the better it needs to be. For example, Frog God Games routinely publishes stuff that costs over $100, but consists of absolutely fantastic stuff. In my experience, I think larger products may, in a way, be more likely to be successful - people who might hesitate to pick up a $2 PDF might jump at the chance for a $35 300-page hardcover. (Especially through crowdfunding, which can reduce a lot of the risk. Though, it also helps if people know who you are, first... XD)

3) All over the place. Visibility is a key aspect of getting sales. (It helps if you send stuff in for reviews, too. A good opinion from a notable reviewer like Endzeitgeist can help with your visibility.)

4) I know it's not a full-time job for everyone. Probably not most 3PP people, even. So... uh, don't quit your day job, unless and until you know it's safe to do so. Think of it as a second job, not your primary one.

5) Depends on the product. I remember that for the Northlands Saga Complete, they weren't even breaking even until somewhat past their initial funding goal (but did manage to surpass it nicely). Of course, that was kind of a huge book. You'll definitely need a publisher to note the exact timeframe.

6) Some people ask for illustrators here on Paizo.com.

Thanks for the advice!, I really appreciate you taking the time on each question, I'll follow your suggestions in trying to get the numbers, thanks!

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Matis Masters wrote:

***

How many 3PP sales are made a Year? from d20pfsrd? from driveThruRPG?
Is there market for publications with pricepoint over 5 USD? 10? 30?
What are the best channels to promote the publications? Paizo Forum?, Other 3PP?, Facebook? Twitter?
If you have self published:
Is it a full time job for the main participants?
How much time did it took you to break even?(reach a number of sales that was enough to pay your costs)
How is your preferred way to engage/find Illustrators? freelancer.com? envato.studio?

any help, on any of those points would be appreciated, even if you point me to an article, or links to read about it.
Thanks

1) Generally, DrivThruRPG/OBS is the place that 3pp companies see the bulk of their sales from, followed by Paizo (if it's a Pathfinder product), and then d20pfsrd behind that. d20pfsrd is actually a fairly new sales site, though people have been trafficking it for rules references for a while. 100 copies sold is generally considered a hit, though a particularly impressive product may generate more. Just remember that your audience is a fraction of a fraction of Paizo's audience.

2) As previously mentioned, yes, but it has to seriously kick ass, and you need to have a realistic perspective of how small that market is so you can budget accordingly.

3) Paizo, GitP, 4chan, Reddit, the more avenues you use to promote your product, the more successful it will be. It's a wise to start building a presence now on the forums you want to promote your product in, so you have some credibility.

4) It takes a lot of work, but generally your margins are going to be very tight with fairly slim profits. I can recall talking to Owen KC Stephens, whose library of products through Rogue Genius Games is one of the largest out there, and his years of product creation and huge library generates something in the realm of $1k a month. So it takes about as much work as a full time job to be successful, but often won't actually provide you with the income and stability of a full time job. Bradley Crouch from Interjection Games once mentioned that he can do it as a full time job with very careful budgeting, combined with prolific production, well executed Kickstarters, and funded a Patreon. Getting those things involves a lot of initial ground work though.

5) Some products pay for themselves, some pay for themselves and one or two other projects, and some will never generate any meaningful revenue. The more you write and the more closely you listen to your customers and reviewers, the better your chances of becoming profitable.

6) Art is one of, if not the, most expensive components in producing a gaming supplement. I would probably recommend investing in a portfolio of multi-use stock art and using that for the bulk of your illustrations initially, with maybe a custom cover piece. Sometimes the best thing you can do is make a solid product mechanically and make smart use of stock art, and come back to the product later with a Kickstarter to expand it with new art and additional material; this is essentially what Dreamscarred Press did with their psionics books building up to Ultimate Psionics, which has appeared on Paizo's "Top 10 Products From Other Companies" list almost every week since its release.

Hope that helps!

Sovereign Court Publisher, Raging Swan Press

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Matis Masters wrote:


How many 3PP sales are made a Year? from d20pfsrd? from driveThruRPG?
Is there market for publications with pricepoint over 5 USD? 10? 30?
What are the best channels to promote the publications? Paizo Forum?, Other 3PP?, Facebook? Twitter?
If you have self published:
Is it a full time job for the main participants?
How much time did it took you to break even?(reach a number of sales that was enough to pay your costs)
How is your preferred way to engage/find Illustrators? freelancer.com? envato.studio?

Here's the view from Raging Swan Press!

1. If you sell 200 copies of something you've done very well. OBS (RPGNow and DriveThruRPG) make up about 50% of a our sales. Paizo make up about 20%. The rest it split between Patreon and our other stores. These numbers are rough, but basically accurate. PDF makes up about 85% of our sales by $.

2. Yes, but it's got to be worth it in terms of quantity and quality over $30 and the book would have to be very special (although I'm not sure if you are talking about PDFs or physical print copies).

3. Facebook is the best place to promote your books (assuming you have a company page and a fair few likes). Facebook's targeted ads are also pretty useful.

3. Raging Swan Press is my only job, but it's part time as I have lots of other commitments.

4. Breaking even is tricky. Success is all about maths. I actually blogged about this very subject here. Also, remember that given enough time virtually any product will break even--as PDFs are forever. You just have to know how long you are comfortable waiting for your money back!

5. I can't remember how I got hold of my current illustrators, so I can't help you here!

Good luck with your project!

Sovereign Court Publisher, Raging Swan Press

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Oh, I should add: be very wary of over confidence.

When I started, I thought 200 sales would be a doddle and I very quickly discovered how hard it is to make a decent amount of sales. To give you some context, my first MONTHS sales were X. I now take triple that a DAY (but that is six years down the road and over 300+ products later).

3PP is a marathon, not a sprint. Be prepared to spend a lot of time building up a product portfolio and a fan base. Don't expect to be rolling around in vast piles of cash tomorrow.

Sovereign Court

What Creighton said.


Matis Masters wrote:


How many 3PP sales are made a Year? from d20pfsrd? from driveThruRPG?
Is there market for publications with pricepoint over 5 USD? 10? 30?
What are the best channels to promote the publications? Paizo Forum?, Other 3PP?, Facebook? Twitter?
If you have self published:
Is it a full time job for the main participants?
How much time did it took you to break even?(reach a number of sales that was enough to pay your costs)
How is your preferred way to engage/find Illustrators? freelancer.com? envato.studio?

Righto, this is going to be rambling, so just pick out what you find useful.

1: Last year averaged out to gross sales of about a $10/hr job, with the curve accelerating near the end of the year. Of that cash, about 15% is Kickstarter, about 5% is Patreon, about 30% is OneBookShelf (RPGnow/DriveThruRPG), and Paizo and d20pfsrd are about 20-25% each.

Of that money, Strange Magic is about 25% of it, maybe more. (Heck, SM was 20% of the Big Book of Bloodlines' Kickstarter; talk about living in a shadow) The model's at a weird point right now, and I'm feeling really vulnerable.

As a side note, I've had Strange Magic as the OneBookShelf Deal of the Day twice now, and those two one-day promotions fired off about $2,000 in sales. For a fleeting moment, I was making as much raw profit as FATE or similar systems - all with one freaking book. Use that tool, and use it as often as you can manage. It's powerful.

Edit: The Deal of the Day data is not totally reliable, as I had Labor Day and Black Friday, but Black Friday had that horrid OBS crash that killed their site for a solid third of the promotion period.

2: There is a market for products at all price points, but let's talk starting off.

Initially, I tried doing a bunch of little dollar products with Interjection Games, just to get my feet wet. Since they've been out so long, every single one of them has moved over 100 units, and some have gone 200 units, but they pale in comparison to my first big product, which is... probably up to around 500-600 by now. My first base class was the tinker, and people bought it like nuts right out of the gate. The key to the tinker is twofold. First, it was an idea I had been brewing up for years and the dedication to insanely modular design showed. Secondly, the price point was very low for what was in the book, so people weren't turned away by the risk of a price tag. Once the word got out, the sales actually got stronger rather than taper off, and the copious expansions I do up have ensured that the "long tail" has never truly set in.

My advice, then. Once you have your processes down, make something big-ish. Put your heart and soul into it. This isn't about the money. This is about showing the world what you can do. Give yourself plenty of room to expand it; it doesn't need to be 100 pages to start. Go for 25,000 words or so. If it takes off, make expansions. Prove your willingness to support your content. Make more things. Expand the ones that sell well, and make it crystal clear that every purchase is a wallet vote for MOAR content. As soon as you think you have enough credibility, do a Kickstarter on a shoestring budget. Again, this is about getting something big written, not about the money. You will work for peanuts (and, if you're like me, your company will be a few months from death producing that first hardcover. KEEP WITH IT.)

Once it's done, every small release ($1) you do exists to keep eyes on the big guy, and every medium release you do ($4-$8) exists to grow your middle range product base and act as possible jumping off points for massive compilation works. Keep it selling, keep it ticking over. If you can conceive of a way to expand it without invalidating the contents, DO IT! This product now supports you, and until there are other products in the same category, it is your precious brain baby. Raid from your own work to make larger, better versions of the things people's wallets said they liked. Do it again. And again.

3: I'm not much of a marketer. I just operate under the assumption that doing the best work I can will get my name out there, and, by and large, it works pretty well. Depending on whether you're going to establish a distinct design flavor or patch in rules holes, you may or may not be able to do that.

As an aside, if you intend to be your own man, my very best advice is to largely ignore what everyone else does. If you're unique enough, they can't do a damn thing to get in your way, and paying excessive attention to their work might influence you to start writing like them, which then weakens your angle. Still, we're a community, and form alliances when you can. Just don't worry about what they're writing.

Edit: Sending a mail to your OBS customers to point at a Kickstarter makes you good money. The Big Book of Bloodlines secured $800 in that manner. Non-Paizo forums scored exactly $0. Endzeitgeist pulls in somewhere up to $100 with his blurbs, and a secondary page ad on d20pfsrd.com pulled in an amount that suggests that those ads are out of the realm of usefulness for most publishers. Leaving a Kickstarter press release on the various tabletop news ticker sites is surprisingly useful, and making a Kicktraq project page actually brings more traffic to your project than paid advertising.

4: Very full time.

5: There were no art expenses in any IG products until the first big hardcover book, which had its art pot and paid for by its Kickstarter. Breaking even happened day 1.

www.sumopaint.com - The gravity symmetry tool is fantastic for making quick swirls to fill in holes. You're selling rules, not art. You're a workman, not an artist, a writer, not a painter. Your customer base will understand.

www.fromoldbooks.com
www.oldbookillustrations.com

The above are decent repositories of high-quality art in the public domain. No attribution needed.


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Creighton Broadhurst wrote:

Oh, I should add: be very wary of over confidence.

When I started, I thought 200 sales would be a doddle and I very quickly discovered how hard it is to make a decent amount of sales. To give you some context, my first MONTHS sales were X. I now take triple that a DAY (but that is six years down the road and over 300+ products later).

3PP is a marathon, not a sprint. Be prepared to spend a lot of time building up a product portfolio and a fan base. Don't expect to be rolling around in vast piles of cash tomorrow.

Creighton is very wise here. In my case, 200 sales actually was a doddle for the tinker, and I... quit my job.

Then all my other products refused to replicate.

...Don't make the same mistake I did o.o


First of all thank you all for your complete answers. This has given me a lot to think about. Ssalarn, Creighton Broadhurst, Malikjoker, Interjection Games again, thank you for your time.

I'll not address each comment one by one, but from what I've seen, its really hard to get noticed out there, and you guys had to spent years to get there publishing non-stop. Actually I think I'm going to buy a lot of your stuff that its really good.

You guys gave me amazing real numbers, thats priceless for me, and there is very little published in respect of that, I think if this trade is to take off, that sort of information should be more openly shared. Wouldn't it be great to create some sort of 3PP Non Profit, just to release information that could help newcomers, and make our markets bigger? Just a thought.

So here is my latest question. I'm currently working as a web developer, and I've been able to save some cash. I would love to work full time on this, as most of us around here, and I'm willing to work hard for it. Because of that I want to think of the best way of investing something between, 5k and 10k dolars into it.

By your answers reputation, and number of publications seems to be a defining factor. So, a few options:
1) would you say its better to spent part of that cash into a few months producing small content just to get my feets wet, lets say 40% of it, and then do a final the rest?

2) do you believe that maybe its better to put it all into one big publication, try to hire high profile people to help on the production, and marketing, and create a really nice kickstarter?

so slow injections through time, or big injection at once?

Keep in mind that actually we haven't published yet, so I'll do some experimentation before in any case.

Do you have any other ideas?

I've heard what was said about we not being marketers or artists, but somewhere I read that people come for the art, and stay for the content. So assuming there is some investing money, would buying custom artwork, be a good way to start on hard?

Thank you so much! I hope this conversation helps a lot of the others out there doubting about the same things.

Sovereign Court

I would honestly start with a kickstarter, and propose either a big project (that you know you can do) or a number of smaller projects. However, the caveat to that would be that you should have a good chunk of it done so that you don't fall into the dreaded doldrums of unfulfilled kickstarter time.

That having been said, start with a small kickstarter for say... 3-4 small products. Don't go crazy with stretch goals, do things that are feasible (better art, slightly higher page count, etc). That's a great way to test the market.

Community Manager

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One of the best pieces of advice I can give to any beginning third-party publisher is: start small, and release consistently. Whatever your publishing schedule is, be consistent about it. It is better to release one product every two weeks than to release ten at once and then nobody hears from you again for six months. Every time you release a new product, people tend to look at your backstock and pick up something else that they might be interested in. Over time, that backstock gets larger, and every *new* release is the chance to pick up a customer that has never seen your products before.

I absolutely would not do a Kickstarter as your first time product—there are a lot of "gotchas" about Kickstarter fulfillment that will ruin people unprepared for it. Your reputation is worth a lot in this (very) small industry, and you will get more success on larger projects if you've already built a name for yourself. My second piece of advice is that you should make your reputation a good one, as it will precede you. Start small, be professional in your dealings with everybody, pay your freelancers and staff, and keep creating.

I hope that I will hear from you when you're ready to start selling on Paizo.com. :)


To add on to what Liz says, you may want to consider having multiple projects ready to publish before your first one goes live. It can be hard to wait once you have something ready (among other things, you probably want to know just how many sales you'll actually have), but if you have several products ready, you can publish on a regular basis for 2-3 months no matter what else is going on, and continue creating new things while that's happening. Ideally, you'd always have at least a small buffer zone of products ready to go. Unexpected events happen, and the best way to avoid disruptions is to be prepared for them.

If you ever decide to go the Kickstarter route - I'd listen to Liz about not doing it right away because she knows stuff, but it may eventually be worth doing - hit me up with a PM and I'll be glad to share my observations and suggestions. ^^ I've backed a number of successful campaigns - and some that were not-so-successful - and more information about what to expect can make all the difference.

Community Manager

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To add to my previous post, there are a number of links on my profile page that you'll probably want to read up on, and if you plan on attending PaizoCon, I run a Pathfinder Compatibility License-oriented workshop that you may be interested in.


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I have found all of my regular artists on the Freelancer Open Call Thread right in this forum. I also found my only repeat freelance writer by doing my own open call here on the Paizo forums.


Liz, if I may be so bold as to hijack Matis's thread, what sort of Kickstart gotchas are you talking about? I imagine that physical goods then require working with third parties, which adds time and complexity, the whole fulfillment process itself is a lot of unpaid grunt work, especially if you're shipping physical items, and of course, no matter what you're promising you may fail to take into account the true total costs of those things...

But aside from that, what sorts of hidden traps are there in KS?


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Ok, so stuff I have learned co-owning, running, writing for, editing for, and doing layout for The Flying Pincushion.

1. Can't speak to others, but after 2 1/2 years as a publisher, we are still happy when we sell 100-200 copies of anything, and as others have said, it can take time, sometimes, lots of time, and sometimes, the product just never sells well, them's just the breaks.

2. The sweet spot for PDF's of 20-40 pages seems to be 5-10 dollars, we usually offer our Into the Breach series which tends to be 25-35 pages for 5.99. If you can afford to offer actual books, that can help, or it can also eat up all your profit margins, and as others have said, they can be slim.

3. When it comes to advertising and promotions, the more places you do it, the better, social media, the boards here, mega-sale sites like D20 and DriveThru, even a self made blog and a store page can go a long way. Plus, if you have your own store, you get more of your sales money. Though Paizo and the other major sales sites all take a very reasonable percentage.

4. Is it a full time job, for me, it is like 1 and a half full time jobs, as I have 4-5 job titles. If you have a layout guy, an artist, freelance writers, etc, you can manage down to a part time job, but it really depends on how much effort you want to put in, and what you want to get back out of it. The harder you work, they better you tend to do, like most other things in life.

5. Breaking even, or breaking into the black (profit) on books really depends on lots of factors. Is what you put out on a popular subject, did it get lots of reviews, did it get bad reviews, how many sites do you sell on, the list goes on. In general 2-3 months is how long it takes most of our products to hit the black, though some have been making money in the first month, and a few just never break even. Again, research, editing, promotion, and a little bit of luck have allot to do with how fast you recoup costs/make money. If making lots of money is your main goal, you may find it a tough go, but if you really love game design, then like myself, you don't cared per say.

6. Art and artists are expensive. We found our cover artist (Anthony Butler, amazing guy) via an open call from our company blog. Otherwise, as our interior art budget is $0.00, creative commons images are my go to, but, I am poor, and cannot afford to pay an artist for interior art, only for cover art. But no matter how you get your art, make sure it is cited correctly, and is in no way, shape, or form, invalid to be reproduced. You do NOT want to have to hire a legal department!

Best advice I can give, write what you love, let someone else edit/peer review it, then do it all over again. But if you have the passion to write for or own a 3pp, love, love of the game is what will keep you going and get you past the tough times, and they can last a while. We are a young company and are still struggling day to day to make it work. But because we love what we do, it never feels like work, and every dollar I earn from publishing, when I spend it on something awesome, the fuzzy feeling is GREAT. So, I say, go for it, and never look back!


Matis Masters wrote:

First of all thank you all for your complete answers. This has given me a lot to think about. Ssalarn, Creighton Broadhurst, Malikjoker, Interjection Games again, thank you for your time.

I'll not address each comment one by one, but from what I've seen, its really hard to get noticed out there, and you guys had to spent years to get there publishing non-stop. Actually I think I'm going to buy a lot of your stuff that its really good.

You guys gave me amazing real numbers, thats priceless for me, and there is very little published in respect of that, I think if this trade is to take off, that sort of information should be more openly shared. Wouldn't it be great to create some sort of 3PP Non Profit, just to release information that could help newcomers, and make our markets bigger? Just a thought.

So here is my latest question. I'm currently working as a web developer, and I've been able to save some cash. I would love to work full time on this, as most of us around here, and I'm willing to work hard for it. Because of that I want to think of the best way of investing something between, 5k and 10k dolars into it.

By your answers reputation, and number of publications seems to be a defining factor. So, a few options:
1) would you say its better to spent part of that cash into a few months producing small content just to get my feets wet, lets say 40% of it, and then do a final the rest?

2) do you believe that maybe its better to put it all into one big publication, try to hire high profile people to help on the production, and marketing, and create a really nice kickstarter?

so slow injections through time, or big injection at once?

Keep in mind that actually we haven't published yet, so I'll do some experimentation before in any case.

Do you have any other ideas?

I've heard what was said about we not being marketers or artists, but somewhere I read that people come for the art, and stay for the content. So assuming there is some investing money, would buying custom artwork, be a...

I needed about $5,000 to buy me enough time to spam the content necessary to get to a break even point. If you actually put cash into the books themselves rather than spend money to keep yourself alive, you will need more.

Community Manager

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Jaunt wrote:

Liz, if I may be so bold as to hijack Matis's thread, what sort of Kickstart gotchas are you talking about? I imagine that physical goods then require working with third parties, which adds time and complexity, the whole fulfillment process itself is a lot of unpaid grunt work, especially if you're shipping physical items, and of course, no matter what you're promising you may fail to take into account the true total costs of those things...

But aside from that, what sorts of hidden traps are there in KS?

I have long and extensive thoughts bordering on rants on this topic, but it really comes down to gross underestimation of the time and expense getting a product to market. In no particular order: physical storage of your print run, shipping costs, shipping time from your printer to you, accounting for missed deadlines from creatives, shipping costs, packaging costs, dealing with returned packages, international shipping costs, "where's my package?", losing out on funds because of declined payment methods, shipping costs, customer service time, fulfillment time, delays of all kinds that you didn't think were possible but suddenly they now exist...

And I haven't event touched marketing and advertising a Kickstarter project, nor dealing with taxes and proper bookkeeping. A lot of the problems above might not exist for a digital-only product, but there are still logistical problems to face.

All of these details add up, and if you're somebody who just wants to write a cool RPG supplement, you're not going to be doing that if you're a one-person show who suddenly has a Kickstarter project to fulfill. I very much do not recommend attempting any sort of large project by yourself. It's a bullet train to burnout, and nobody needs that—you need to ask yourself not "Can I do all of these little pieces of this project" (because you can, of course), but whether it's worth your time to do so rather than having someone else do the work for you. Who might actually want to do the work, and actually likes doing the work, and is willing to do the work for you.

Your time is the most precious resource you have on ANY given project, and I would advise spending it wisely and where it will have the most impact on your project.


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Some Examples:

-The Pact Magic Unbound: Grimoire of Lost Souls Kickstarter had an original estimated delivery date of August 2015, and still isn't done. The text of the book is basically complete, but there were problems with artists delivering, and the whole point of the campaign was to get lots of really nice art for the book... so yeah, delays. It's expected to be delivered soon-ish, but at bare minimum, it's almost six months past the original release date. (Most of the backers seem fine with this, by the way, in part because they've released a beta version of the book and lots of pretty artwork through updates.)

-The Mythic Mania trilogy of books had an original estimated release of May 2015 (which is actually when the books got printed, I think - impressive!). One of the rewards - Hero Lab files - is only just now starting to be available (apparently it's juuuust about ready for release). Of course, we always knew it would take awhile... but the point is that it's a promised reward that's taken quite awhile. XD Almost certainly longer than planned.

-The Legendary Planet Adventure Path (which is absolutely fantastic, by the way) has also seen a number of delays, and its team is basically a Who's Who of some of the most experienced Adventure Path creators in the industry. Y'know, the people who know better than anyone else exactly how much time and effort it ought to take to produce something like that. It still got somewhat delayed, although in fairness, the 5th Edition SRD thing wasn't their fault and it totally makes sense to take that into account going forward since it'll help them make a better product. XD And heck, they even had the prologue adventure ready for delivery very shortly after the campaign ended.

The point is, stuff happens. Delays and issues aren't just a thing that applies to little companies - they happen to some of the best in the business when working with Kickstarter. At this point, I would assume some kind of unexpected delays are going to happen and take that into account for Kickstarter campaigns. If you ever go that route, add at least 25% to the time you believe it will take to complete a project. (And don't have your own personal income riding on getting the product done by a specific date, because it's probably not gonna happen. There... seems to be a general trend of optimistic bias for KS campaigns.)

^^

It definitely helps to be established, have an audience, and truly understand what you're getting into before you do any kind of larger project. And at a certain point, as Liz noted, you'll want to get a bigger team to work on things.


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Thanks much, Liz, those are some great thoughts. If I ever get some skin in this game, I will definitely come back and reread them five times before even looking at Kickstarter.

GM Rednal, good input as well, thanks.

Liberty's Edge

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Liz Courts wrote:


I have long and extensive thoughts bordering on rants on this topic, but it really comes down to gross underestimation of the time and expense getting a product to market. In no particular order: physical storage of your print run, shipping costs, shipping time from your printer to you, accounting for missed deadlines from creatives, shipping costs, packaging costs, dealing with returned packages, international shipping costs, "where's my package?", losing out on funds because of declined payment methods, shipping costs, customer service time, fulfillment time, delays of all kinds that you didn't think were possible but suddenly they now exist...

And I haven't event touched marketing and advertising a Kickstarter project, nor dealing with taxes and proper bookkeeping. A lot of the problems above might not exist for a digital-only product, but there are still logistical problems to face.

All of these details add up, and if you're somebody who just wants to write a cool RPG supplement, you're not going to be doing that if you're a one-person show who suddenly has a Kickstarter project to fulfill. I very much do not recommend attempting any sort of large project by yourself. It's a bullet train to burnout, and nobody needs that—you need to ask yourself not "Can I do all of these little pieces of this project" (because you can, of course), but whether it's worth your time to do so rather than having someone else do the work for you. Who might actually want to do...

As always, Liz has some excellent comments and advise here! I can attest first hand just how much effort, time, focus, and work goes into a successful kickstarter!

You DON'T want to do a kickstarter as your first project!!!!


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GM Rednal wrote:
4) I know it's not a full-time job for everyone. Probably not most 3PP people, even. So... uh, don't quit your day job, unless and until you know it's safe to do so. Think of it as a second job, not your primary one.

For the bulk of folks who go into this niche, it's not even that good. You basically are a success if you've managed to produce a labor of love, and not lose your shirt in the process. Very VERY few actually get to the point where they see a significant profit large enough for the IRS to tax.

Keep this basic awful truth in mind. You're looking to go into print, a very expensive endeavor to serve a small slice of a very small customer base (those few percent of gamers willing to buy third party) who typically doesn't spend that much money.

Consider starting small. Like the small PDFS sold here on the Paizo store. They're about 10-20 pages, sell for a few bucks, and have some gems among the chaff such as the various Bullet Point PDFS and the D20 Hellenic Campaign book.

Community Manager

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GM Rednal wrote:
At this point, I would assume some kind of unexpected delays are going to happen and take that into account for Kickstarter campaigns. If you ever go that route, add at least 25% to the time you believe it will take to complete a project.

I try and operate on two deadline estimations:


  • The Scotty Principle: Always estimate twice as much time as it actually takes.
  • When I get a deadline, subtract a week from that and remember that date. Life invariably happens and I've already built myself a buffer.

Also...you don't have to do your magnum opus right away. I would recommend not doing that (see previous comments about big projects). Get some experience under your belt, build a professional network, stop, collaborate, and listen. You'll be way happier after learning the ins and outs and waiting to do that project you've always wanted to do than trying to do it right out of the gate.

Liberty's Edge

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
[/b] Very VERY few actually get to the point where they see a significant profit large enough for the IRS to tax.

I don't know about THAT! :)


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I've run a Kickstarter for my webcomic. It wasn't the sort that filled up and funded on the first day. It was the most nerve-wracking, stomach-churning, exhausting thing I've ever done.

And I was there for the birth of both my children.

I made it, and made several stretch goals, but mostly because I had pre-existing fans and years worth of track record on delivering the comic.

You start a Kickstarter for your first project and, unless your idea really catches fire (and it DOES happen), you're likely to just crush your own spirit.


JGray wrote:

I've run a Kickstarter for my webcomic. It wasn't the sort that filled up and funded on the first day. It was the most nerve-wracking, stomach-churning, exhausting thing I've ever done.

And I was there for the birth of both my children.

I made it, and made several stretch goals, but mostly because I had pre-existing fans and years worth of track record on delivering the comic.

You start a Kickstarter for your first project and, unless your idea really catches fire (and it DOES happen), you're likely to just crush your own spirit.

Aye, my first Kickstarter was so bloody stressful. It had to fund or I was out of business; didn't tell anyone at the time, of course. I distinctly remember that the Kobold launched their Egypt whatsit and I lost a couple hundred dollars on my birthday because of it. Worst. Birthday. Ever.

Sovereign Court Publisher, Raging Swan Press

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Matis Masters wrote:


1) would you say its better to spent part of that cash into a few months producing small content just to get my feets wet, lets say 40% of it, and then do a final the rest?

2) do you believe that maybe its better to put it all into one big publication, try to hire high profile people to help on the production, and marketing, and create a really nice kickstarter?

so slow injections through time, or big injection at once?

Keep in mind that actually we haven't published yet, so I'll do some experimentation before in any case.

Do you have any other ideas?

I've heard what was said about we not being marketers or artists, but somewhere I read that people come for the art, and stay for the content. So assuming there is some investing money, would buying custom artwork, be a...

1. Many small products is the way to go. You make a small investment--which is small risk--and you get your name out there. The more products you release, the more likely is is someone A) sees you and B) is interested in one of your books. Releasing one big book feels great, but putting all your edges in one basket is a bad idea. What happens if you get bad reviews? What happens if no one wants that particular book? What happens if no one notices your company exists?

2. Marketing is THE problem for 3PP. It's a very noisy marketplace and there are literally hundreds of companies doing pretty much what you are doing. Find a niche and then shout about it... a lot.

I've got some more advice for freelancers and publishers on my blog.

And a final side note: Persistence must be your secret publisher power. If you look here at the registry of Pathfinder compatible products you'll see most companies put out a few products and then stop trading. It's depressing, but most companies seem to stall somewhere between 1 and 20 products. It's quite rare for anyone to get into treble figures (in fact only 12 companies have managed it). I strongly suspect that lack of sales (or wildly optimistic expectations) are to blame for this.


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Have you considered working with an existing company?

I've been getting into the industry myself, and I've found it tremendously helpful talking to and working with existing publishers and writers. Its really given me a much better perspective and grasp of how things work. Taking up a few freelancing jobs could not only teach you more about how this all works, but could give you some real experience writing and help start up a reputation, at least with other publishers, writers, and artists.

And of course, working for someone else hardly has to be forever. Freelancing doesn't do much to tie you down - in fact, you could freelance and work on your own projects at the same time. I'm pretty sure there are a number of people who do that already.


Good suggestion Ambervael, no one says you can't freelance out all over the place (just keep your NDR's and possible intra-company design concerns in mind). But we have plenty of freelancers that do stuff for us and two or more other publishers. It is really not a bad way to get a start, and SOMEONE ELSE has to sweat the big stuff and not you (till you feel you are ready to do so, and then get some Tums :) )


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If you have some time to kill, check out my Transparency Agenda series on YouTube. I cover A LOT of topics that relates to being a 3PP, good and bad. I hope this helps.

Liberty's Edge

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AmberVael wrote:

Have you considered working with an existing company?

I've been getting into the industry myself, and I've found it tremendously helpful talking to and working with existing publishers and writers. Its really given me a much better perspective and grasp of how things work. Taking up a few freelancing jobs could not only teach you more about how this all works, but could give you some real experience writing and help start up a reputation, at least with other publishers, writers, and artists.

And of course, working for someone else hardly has to be forever. Freelancing doesn't do much to tie you down - in fact, you could freelance and work on your own projects at the same time. I'm pretty sure there are a number of people who do that already.

That's a great point!

I used to listen to a money/financial radio talk show years ago and the host said something I still remember today. He said you should NEVER even think about starting your own business until you've worked for someone else in that business for at least a year (and preferably more). Only then, after you've seen how things work, learned the ins, outs, and quirks of that business, established some contacts etc, should you even THINK about trying it on your own.

I think that applies every bit to the RPG business.


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My 2 cents. I am going to echo AmberVael and Marc, but with a different twist.

Do you want to be published or be a publishing company. If you want to be published, then work with an existing company as a freelancer or as a co-op project.

If you want to be a publishing company, then everything above echoed. Remember though, that once you start working on the business everything gets tricky to balance, specially if you do everything as a one/two person shop. You can't always design and write full time and then not do layout.

If you want to stay a small biz/self publisher, and produce a few things because you love what you do and want to do it, then echo everyone said above.

Think about growth. Are you going to stay a Pathfinder publisher all your term or are you wanting to expand into other systems.

If you don't find your niche in the PF world or carve out a hole, you will get swallowed and lost in the sea of 3PPs. Look at the compatibility page of companies. The list is HUGE isn't it? A lot of those companies have faded and disappear, others that are small are still producing but don't get the recognition they deserve.

Make sure you are doing everything in code of the OGL. Make sure it's done properly. There are so many products I have seen where their OGL has the wrong companies listed, and they don't even list their own product. Make sure you identify what is product identity and what is open game content.
And never try to fool anyone and claim your mechanics are not OGL and are IP, when they clearly are from the a core book.

If there is a certain company you enjoy and idolize, may send that person an email and ask for advice. Last year at GenCon and the year before at DragonCon, I was able to sit down the heads of my favorite companies and just ask insane questions. And randomly enough, I am freelancing for one of them.

It's a small industry and people talk. Some form their circles, some don't, but word can get around if your company is hard to deal with, or if someone from your company talks smack. So if you are freelancing or publishing, always be professional.

*edited and added post*

Sovereign Court

I have a question about advertising for your own books and such. Is there any kind of an etiquette guide on this? I've had some blowback for trying to advertise on G+, mostly from individuals angry that their timelines are full of advertisement (it wasn't just coming from me). I'd love any advice on this subject.


Blogs are good for that, though advertising remains sort of a mysterious creature to us at TFPG. My advice, if you can, find someone with a marketing degree, they understand that world, as a game designer, I personally find that aspect of business challenging, as it lays outside my expertise zone.


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Ideally, you'll want to have a lot of non-promotional material when you're active on Social Networks. Basically, people should have a reason to follow you other than getting ads and deals. Know your audience (are you talking to GMs or players, or both?), support their interests, and use social media as a tool for improving your brand and people's thoughts of you by providing interesting and informative material. You'll probably want at least three non-advertisement posts for every ad you put on social media.

(Note: I'm not specifically an advertising expert, but I do a lot of content marketing. The point of Social Media is to be social. If you just want to offer deals, I suggest doing email marketing instead.)


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Matis Masters wrote:

Hello, sometimes I've seen people commenting here that are part of Third Party Publishing companies, so my question is mostly for them, but obviously all the help is welcome. A friend and I are thinking of going the road of self publishing, under the assumption that we have several things in the works that could easily match the quality of the d20pfsrd store items we've seen so far, and we have all the skills needed to create content like that.

....snip

If between you and very local friends you can

create
write
*edit
illustrate
*edit
layout
*edit
cartographise

Then I'd suggest KS.
*This person cannot be part of the creation process.

This is what I have done recently. I was sitting in a game session, head full of ideas when it dawned on me I played with
-An excellent illustrator
-An author who has had fiction and non-fiction in print and electronic
-Someone starting in their cartography side-career
-A recent retiree who had spent his work-life writing reports for a very famous engineering company
-someone who used InDesign at work
...and it dawned on me, I had everything needed to get off my behind and get some stuff done. All within 2 miles of where I lived, for whichever service I needed!
It may be the unique set of circumstances but it has worked well for me/us so far

Very good luck, I hope you 'find your path'!
John

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