So just the other day I was reading my copy of the Inner Sea Gods when I came across a curious little ditty about Shelyn in her entry. Apparently, the Goddess of Love supports couples who have affairs, and the example was described as the couple being in a loveless, politically motivated marriage.
I would be fine with that example if it was the only one in the entry. Reading on, I read that Shelyn "does not require fidelity" in a relationship and Shelyn actually supports those who "find love outside of marriage" (which in the real world we call an affair.)
As a Neutral Good goddess that's widely portrayed as the purest, most kindest and lovable deity in the pantheon, how can she openly support one of the most emotionally harmful things you can do to a person, something I imagine many people who play Pathfinder have experienced first hand?
The entry says much of Shelyn's doctrine is about healing broken hearts and finding the courage to love again, and yet here she is encouraging the very behavior that will break those hearts. This is not Good behavior for a Good deity.
Context matters. If someone is forced into a political marriage with someone they don't love (and quite possibly never ever would love) then as a goddess of love finding love, any love, even if outside of marriage would be something that she would support.
Love conquers all according to Shelyn, so anything goes if that is what it takes to get you to love.
However, loving someone and then having an affair with someone else to satisfy lust etc. would be directly against her beliefs and tenets.
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By cherry picking the paragraph in question you leave out the parts that are clearly most important.
Marriage for love pleases her, as does finding love outside a marriage when doing so does not hurt the spouse. Shelyn does not require fidelity, but teaches that you should not be reckless with other peoples' hearts, nor should you tolerate those who are reckless with your heart, for an oft-broken heart is slow to heal.
Shelyn in no way supports "cheating." She supports polyamory when it occurs openly and with trust.
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All that quote really tells me is that it's okay if you don't get caught.
If there are likely to be significant repercussions for getting caught, that kind of goes against the bit on being reckless. Again, beware the cherry picking.
That said, if someone cheated, got caught, and tried to say "But Shelyn thinks it's OK", they aren't going to be punished by the goddess in any significant way. Your typical Golarion gods just don't work that way. But it doesn't mean that person is right.
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All that quote really tells me is that it's okay if you don't get caught.If there are likely to be significant repercussions for getting caught, that kind of goes against the bit on being reckless. Again, beware the cherry picking.
That said, if someone cheated, got caught, and tried to say "But Shelyn thinks it's OK", they aren't going to be punished by the goddess in any significant way. Your typical Golarion gods just don't work that way. But it doesn't mean that person is right.
Well, if they were a cleric/inquisitor of Sheyln, they might not receive spells until an atonement was made imo, but a typical layperson wouldn't have a problem.
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In my experience, finding love outside of marriage is only emotionally harmful if the couple isn't alright with it from the start. So yeah, you can totally spread the love around, as long as the wedded couple is okay with it.
Basically, you can have a binary relationship if you want to, but it's in no way required.
In my experience, finding love outside of marriage is only emotionally harmful if the couple isn't alright with it from the start. So yeah, you can totally spread the love around, as long as the wedded couple is okay with it.
Basically, you can have a binary relationship if you want to, but it's in no way required.
In my experience, the vast majority of couples are in monogamous relationships and get hurt when someone's trying to "spread the love around."
All that quote really tells me is that it's okay if you don't get caught.If there are likely to be significant repercussions for getting caught, that kind of goes against the bit on being reckless. Again, beware the cherry picking.
That said, if someone cheated, got caught, and tried to say "But Shelyn thinks it's OK", they aren't going to be punished by the goddess in any significant way. Your typical Golarion gods just don't work that way. But it doesn't mean that person is right.
The fact Shelyn is still seen as Neutral GOOD for allowing that kind of behavior suggests, at least by Paizo, that the person is right, that an affair is okay as long as the partner doesn't find out.
Getting caught always has significant repercussions, finding out a spouse or lover is emotionally and/or physically cheating on you is devastating to all but the most callous individuals. This kind of behavior ruins lives, and it's actively endorsed by a Neutral Good goddess.
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You are looking at this with an ethnocentric point of view. Polyamory is a thing, and isn't inherently wrong as long as everyone involved is open and aware about what is going on and is supportive of it.
Polyamory isn't "cheating", and Sheyln would approve.
If someone is in a loving monogamous relationship, then any other relationship outside of that relationship does hurt the spouse whether they know about it or not, because it is a betrayal of trust. Sheyln would not approve of an affair in this situation.
If someone is in a loveless marriage that is due to political or other concerns that is not based on love, Sheyln would apporve of an affair because love is more important than a social obligation, and the marriage was never about love.
So just the other day I was reading my copy of the Inner Sea Gods when I came across a curious little ditty about Shelyn in her entry. Apparently, the Goddess of Love supports couples who have affairs, and the example was described as the couple being in a loveless, politically motivated marriage.
I would be fine with that example if it was the only one in the entry. Reading on, I read that Shelyn "does not require fidelity" in a relationship and Shelyn actually supports those who "find love outside of marriage" (which in the real world we call an affair.)
As a Neutral Good goddess that's widely portrayed as the purest, most kindest and lovable deity in the pantheon, how can she openly support one of the most emotionally harmful things you can do to a person, something I imagine many people who play Pathfinder have experienced first hand?
The entry says much of Shelyn's doctrine is about healing broken hearts and finding the courage to love again, and yet here she is encouraging the very behavior that will break those hearts. This is not Good behavior for a Good deity.
Shelyn supports a given behavior in a given set of circumstances. It's really other folks who decide to criminalize it or not.
In my experience, finding love outside of marriage is only emotionally harmful if the couple isn't alright with it from the start. So yeah, you can totally spread the love around, as long as the wedded couple is okay with it.
Basically, you can have a binary relationship if you want to, but it's in no way required.
In my experience, the vast majority of couples are in monogamous relationships and get hurt when someone's trying to "spread the love around."
All that quote really tells me is that it's okay if you don't get caught.If there are likely to be significant repercussions for getting caught, that kind of goes against the bit on being reckless. Again, beware the cherry picking.
That said, if someone cheated, got caught, and tried to say "But Shelyn thinks it's OK", they aren't going to be punished by the goddess in any significant way. Your typical Golarion gods just don't work that way. But it doesn't mean that person is right.
The fact Shelyn is still seen as Neutral GOOD for allowing that kind of behavior suggests, at least by Paizo, that the person is right, that an affair is okay as long as the partner doesn't find out.
Getting caught always has significant repercussions, finding out a spouse or lover is emotionally and/or physically cheating on you is devastating to all but the most callous individuals. This kind of behavior ruins lives, and it's actively endorsed by a Neutral Good goddess.
What you are describing is a lawful good diety, not a neutral good one.
What you are describing is a lawful good diety, not a neutral good one.
I don't think a Neutral Good goddess should be supporting behavior that actively harms people.
You are looking at this with an ethnocentric point of view. Polyamory is a thing, and isn't inherently wrong as long as everyone involved is open and aware about what is going on and is supportive of it.
Polyamory isn't "cheating", and Sheyln would approve.
If someone is in a loving monogamous relationship, then any other relationship outside of that relationship does hurt the spouse whether they know about it or not, because it is a betrayal of trust. Sheyln would not approve of an affair in this situation.
If someone is in a loveless marriage that is due to political or other concerns that is not based on love, Sheyln would apporve of an affair because love is more important than a social obligation, and the marriage was never about love.
Polyamory is also something most of the world's population does not practice, and for the purposes of a society such as Avistan does not really exist beyond the niche subcultures you might find in a city here and there.
However you do bring up a good point that largely answers my concerns; Shelyn does not support cheating on a spouse even if said spouse would never find out.
The wording of that in the Inner Sea Gods is, however, very vague and can easily be interpreted as Shelyn supporting adultery or cuckoldry if the opportunity presents itself. I mean hell, it outright states Shelyn is the one to pray to if you want an affair kept secret, that isn't helping her case here.
What you are describing is a lawful good diety, not a neutral good one.
No, I think he's more looking for a lawful neutral busybody deity who will trap anyone's butt in a loveless marriage if that's the relationship you're stuck in.
I would also guess that the OP is fixating on the reference, for some reason (that I really shouldn't speculate on, hence the edit), and therefore can't see that the whole issue of Shelyn being in favor of love outside of marriage (provided it doesn't harm anyone) is a very small aspect of her and can expect to have little effect on her alignment.
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"When doing so doesn't hurt the spouse" is not synonymous with "don't get caught." Not getting caught just means you're hurting the spouse and he/she doesn't know yet.
This is kind of like the Torag paladin code all over again - someone cherrypicking really specific parts of a sentence in order to misinterpret the entire thing =P
That being said, I could totally see Shelyn supporting an affair in, say, an abusive marriage where the victim can't extricate himself or herself someway.
(I could totally see people getting into marriages that can't be legally ended in Cheliax, for example. "I'm sorry ma'am, but your vows said 'till death do us part' and neither of you are dead. Your request for a divorce is denied.")
The difficulty of that particular passage in Shelyn's article is that it is assuming that both partners are okay with having multiple partners.
So what about this;
A political marriage is arranged between two people. One of the partners is happy, eager and entirely devoted to making their partner be as happy as possible in the arrangement and prays to Shelyn than their partner will feel the same about them.
The other one hates the circumstances and prays to Shelyn to find their 'true love' outside the marriage and carries on an affair.
Who does the faith of Shelyn support? Which one does Shelyn answer?
Love could eventually bloom between the two, but if the disappointed partner has their prayer answered, the other would be devastated. Should the dissatisfied half just bear with it to protect the feelings of the other? Or should the happy party eventually realize that the person they love will never return their feelings and learn to let them go?
In either case, it seems that the only one of them who actually practices true love is the one who is hurt.
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Polyamory is a thing, and isn't inherently wrong as long as everyone involved is open and aware about what is going on and is supportive of it.
As someone in a polyamorous relationship I can't say that I agree with you. Oftentimes that first step from turning a monogamous relationship into a polygamist one is filled with hesitance, fear of backlash, and self-doubt. "What if he doesn't want another person in this relationship?" "What if I don't like who she's bringing home at night?" It's a bunch of metaphysical landmines that you need to be certain you're okay with stepping on; there's no way to fully prepare for dropping a bombshell like "hey, sweetheart, I love you and all, but there's this girl..." on your significant other, unless you have gotten extremely-lucky when you started to date them.
Or unless it was open from the start, at which point that's describing something different completely. STARTING a relationship with the knowledge that it's a poly one is different than attempting to change a pre-existing relationship into a polyamorous one. In the former, all your cards are on the table (metaphorically speaking). In the latter, you're either thinking about someone else (which is dangerous water to tread) or you're already in a relationship with that second person and are trying to convince the first that it's alright (at which point you're just cheating and trying to change the rules retroactively so you won't be cheating).
Again, this is from the viewpoint of someone who's in a very happy relationship with two wonderful people; when one person became two people, I was utterly terrified because of the confused feelings I had, and how I could have potentially hurt the first person. I would have to say, in closing, that the gods SHOULD be multifaceted and complex beings. I believe that Erastil should be for anybody that raises a child but against single parents of either sex. I believe that Sarenrae should be all for redemption, but that this also includes working hand-in-hand with Asmodeus and accepting slavery where it is legal. And finally I believe that Shelyn is accepting of poly relationships, but ONLY once they're poly and that she's against the steps leading up to it. Is it contradictory and paradoxical? Yes, but they're GODS; mere mortal minds should think that they're being hypocritical or mysterious.
@ LordofThreshold - if one partner was actually sincerely trying and the other partner started an affair, I suspect Shelyn would view the latter partner to be an a%#~@!*. The proper thing in those circumstances would be the latter partner to at least give it a shot.
Though, once the situation dragged on and the partner who was trying to make it work finally gives up, Shelyn would probably be sympathetic to that partner.
Basically, it's going to be a case-by-case, because who is doing what and why they are doing it actually matters.
OP is looking at Golarion from through a very modern lens. For much of history and even now in large chunks of the world, marriage doesn't mean monogamy and nobody expects it to. Applying your cultural expectations doesn't really make sense here.
Avistan's very modeled on Western Europe, where marriage usually did mean monogamy.
But there was also a very long time where if a marriage was crap, you were simply stuck with it until you died.
Being able to easily terminate a bad marriage (such as by a no-fault divorce) is a relatively modern development.
So what about this;
A political marriage is arranged between two people. One of the partners is happy, eager and entirely devoted to making their partner be as happy as possible in the arrangement and prays to Shelyn than their partner will feel the same about them.The other one hates the circumstances and prays to Shelyn to find their 'true love' outside the marriage and carries on an affair.
Who does the faith of Shelyn support? Which one does Shelyn answer?
Love could eventually bloom between the two, but if the disappointed partner has their prayer answered, the other would be devastated. Should the dissatisfied half just bear with it to protect the feelings of the other? Or should the happy party eventually realize that the person they love will never return their feelings and learn to let them go?
Were this to come up in a game, different GMs will adjudicate it differently. But as a goddess of love, not political obligation, I'd be having Shelyn provide omens to both that love should be sought elsewhere, outside the marriage. And that's it - omens and portents are the farthest I'd go because that's all most mortals get.
OP is looking at Golarion from through a very modern lens. For much of history and even now in large chunks of the world, marriage doesn't mean monogamy and nobody expects it to. Applying your cultural expectations doesn't really make sense here.
People are naturally selfish. Golarion is advanced socially enough that monogamy would be the standard for most of the world with a few exceptions, but it's usually presented as such. The popularity of Erastil would suggest that marriage between two partners was the norm.
Let's be honest here, in most of the urban Golarion world, where matters of nobility, lineage, marriage ties and family alliances rule (Taldor/Cheliax, I'm looking at you) those in power don't have the patience or open mindedness to tolerate the disorganization of multiple partners. Clear lines of succession are necessary for a stable society to grow and thrive, so trying to pass polyamory as a majority, or even a large minority, doesn't fit into the grand scheme of things.
In addition, the majority of couples presented in Golarion, straight, homosexual, multi-gendered or whatever, have been shown to be between two people and two of the major gods of the world (Erestil and Shelyn) seem to lean on the side of binary coupling. It a natural evolution of human society and it's safe to assume that most of Avistan has reached that point. I doubt multiple partner marriages would be that common except in parts of Golarion that are based on real world societies that also support them.
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I think the original poster is placing some personal baggage into the interpretation -
something I imagine many people who play Pathfinder have experienced first hand?
Never been married, nor ever messed with anyone that was married, so I have no first hand experience with affairs. Most of my married friends have not experienced such a thing, either. At least not to my knowledge.
I do have friends that have open marriages, which I think is what may have been meant rather than a deceptive affair. Open relationships are transparent about such matters, and requires consent from everyone. One problem is that love is very emotion based, so codifying every example could really add up the word count.
When would it be okay to keep a relationship a secret? - look at Romeo and Juliet. If a loving relationship creates political upheaval, you might need Shelyn's help.
Golarion has a lot of cultures, and as such we can't really make our own cultural assumptions as a default. I don't even know which Golarion cultures practice monogamy versus polygamy. Which cultures have arranged marriages? Which cultures even have "till death do us part" marriages? How does resurrection affect such marriage vows? One could write a massive book on the subject! It would also likely not sell because the main point of the game is kill monsters and take their stuff for most groups. There's not many rules or encouragement for making a fantasy soap opera.
To bring this around to the title question - she does not support adultery in a working relationship that would emotionally harm people. Shelyn would support it if such a marriage was a loveless, arranged marriage; or if it was an abusive marriage. Other examples, and your mileage may vary. As I said, it is hard to codify something that is emotional based.
The difficulty of that particular passage in Shelyn's article is that it is assuming that both partners are okay with having multiple partners.
So what about this;
A political marriage is arranged between two people. One of the partners is happy, eager and entirely devoted to making their partner be as happy as possible in the arrangement and prays to Shelyn than their partner will feel the same about them.The other one hates the circumstances and prays to Shelyn to find their 'true love' outside the marriage and carries on an affair.
Why does the other one hate their circumstances? From the context described, that person is getting a way better than average deal when it comes to arranged marriages. Context matters. Gods work in mysterious ways. in general Shelyn would answer BOTH prayers, but that answer may come in the long view as opposed to immediate gratification. Part of that answer may be in leading the dissatisfied person to loving the other.
Remember that the goddess may decide to answer with what she feels you need, as opposed to what you ask for. And being that she's not the totally all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful Abrahamic God, she might even get it wrong.
@ LordofThreshold - if one partner was actually sincerely trying and the other partner started an affair, I suspect Shelyn would view the latter partner to be an a$#&%*!. The proper thing in those circumstances would be the latter partner to at least give it a shot.
Though, once the situation dragged on and the partner who was trying to make it work finally gives up, Shelyn would probably be sympathetic to that partner.
Basically, it's going to be a case-by-case, because who is doing what and why they are doing it actually matters.
Agreed.
If the uninterested partner didn't even make the effort, I imagine Shelyn would pretty clearly make it obvious that the devoted partner should look somewhere else for someone who would appreciate them and help them find that person.If they couldn't separate on account of the political aspect, then either Shelyn would help them both eventually reciprocate their feelings or the first partner would become a damn fine specimen of 'love endures all things' and be especially blessed by Shelyn.
I wonder is Shelyn would start an Extraplanar-E-Harmony?
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I don't own ISG, so all I have to go off of is the quote referenced above:
Marriage for love pleases her, as does finding love outside a marriage when doing so does not hurt the spouse. Shelyn does not require fidelity, but teaches that you should not be reckless with other peoples' hearts, nor should you tolerate those who are reckless with your heart, for an oft-broken heart is slow to heal.
Shelyn places no requirements on monogamy between her followers beyond whatever sort of restrictions they decide to choose for themselves. If two people want to be monogamous, then she's in favor of it. If they want to be polyamorous, then that's fine too. What she doesn't condone is hurting people emotionally in the pursuit of love. If you are in a monogamous relationship, and find love with someone else, Shelyn would want you to be honest with your partner and discuss this with them. Sure, the other partner might be upset, but it's better than sneaking around behind their back to see the person you're actually in love with.
With regards to LordOfThreshold's situation, I would point out that the marriage was an arranged, political one, and has nothing to do with love. Since this is a social construct placed upon the couple by society, not Shelyn, it probably doesn't concern her much. Her concern would be finding a solution that benefits both people. I don't think Shelyn would involve herself directly in this, but her faith would counsel both parties moderate their views. The satisfied party should realize that the unsatisfied party will probably never love them the way that they hope, and the unsatisfied party should realize that the satisfied party will be hurt by the affair if (when) it becomes known to them. Some degree of couples' counselling is probably required, and I suspect that's a job that many Shelynites engage in.
Why does the other one hate their circumstances? From the context described, that person is getting a way better than average deal when it comes to arranged marriages. Context matters. Gods work in mysterious ways. in general Shelyn would answer BOTH prayers, but that answer may come in the long view as opposed to immediate gratification. Part of that answer may be in leading the dissatisfied person to loving the other.
Remember that the goddess may decide to answer with what she feels you need, as opposed to what you ask for. And being that she's not the totally all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful Abrahamic God, she might even get it wrong.
Say the devoted partner is an older man who has expected this his whole life and the other is a younger woman who didn't sign up for an arranged marriage.
Or perhaps one is a homnosexual man who is eager to start a relationship and the other is a heterosexual man who now has to marry someone he has no attraction too in order to cement an alliance.
I agree with your assessment though, and given that, the best way to resolve it would be to help them find love together or separate the two and let them find love on their own. Shelyn would likely not care about the ramifications of whatever political fallout would happen, save if it caused a conflict on such a scale that it caused an incredible amount of heartbreak and loss of love.
I don't own ISG, so all I have to go off of is the quote referenced above:
Marriage for love pleases her, as does finding love outside a marriage when doing so does not hurt the spouse. Shelyn does not require fidelity, but teaches that you should not be reckless with other peoples' hearts, nor should you tolerate those who are reckless with your heart, for an oft-broken heart is slow to heal.
Shelyn places no requirements on monogamy between her followers beyond whatever sort of restrictions they decide to choose for themselves. If two people want to be monogamous, then she's in favor of it. If they want to be polyamorous, then that's fine too. What she doesn't condone is hurting people emotionally in the pursuit of love. If you are in a monogamous relationship, and find love with someone else, Shelyn would want you to be honest with your partner and discuss this with them. Sure, the other partner might be upset, but it's better than sneaking around behind their back to see the person you're actually in love with.
With regards to LordOfThreshold's situation, I would point out that the marriage was an arranged, political one, and has nothing to do with love. Since this is a social construct placed upon the couple by society, not Shelyn, it probably doesn't concern her much. Her concern would be finding a solution that benefits both people. I don't think Shelyn would involve herself directly in this, but her faith would counsel both parties moderate their views. The satisfied party should realize that the unsatisfied party will probably never love them the way that they hope, and the unsatisfied party should realize that the satisfied party will be hurt by the affair if (when) it becomes known to them. Some degree of couples' counselling is probably required, and I suspect that's a job that many Shelynites engage in.
Wisdom.
>nor should you tolerate those who are reckless with your heartForgot about that line. Pretty much solves my hypothetical issue.
What you are describing is a lawful good diety, not a neutral good one.No, I think he's more looking for a lawful neutral busybody deity who will trap anyone's butt in a loveless marriage if that's the relationship you're stuck in.
I would also guess that the OP is fixating on the reference, for some reason (that I really shouldn't speculate on, hence the edit), and therefore can't see that the whole issue of Shelyn being in favor of love outside of marriage (provided it doesn't harm anyone) is a very small aspect of her and can expect to have little effect on her alignment.
*Presenter shows magical apparition which purports to show two Shelynite clerics discussing the profit potential of selling shredded marriage agreements.*
For her support of Adultery, I repectfully submit this proposition to Defund the Church of Shelyn in His Majesty's next royal budget as part of the Family Protection Act.
OP is looking at Golarion from through a very modern lens. For much of history and even now in large chunks of the world, marriage doesn't mean monogamy and nobody expects it to. Applying your cultural expectations doesn't really make sense here.Avistan's very modeled on Western Europe, where marriage usually did mean monogamy.
But it also usually didn't mean marriage for love, and extramarital affairs were expected.
The OP is looking at a VERY modern version of marriage that precludes political and economic marriages. That's basically post 1900 for most of Western Europe.
@ LordofThreshold - if one partner was actually sincerely trying and the other partner started an affair, I suspect Shelyn would view the latter partner to be an a$#&%*!. The proper thing in those circumstances would be the latter partner to at least give it a shot.
Though, once the situation dragged on and the partner who was trying to make it work finally gives up, Shelyn would probably be sympathetic to that partner.
Basically, it's going to be a case-by-case, because who is doing what and why they are doing it actually matters.
Agreed.
If the uninterested partner didn't even make the effort, I imagine Shelyn would pretty clearly make it obvious that the devoted partner should look somewhere else for someone who would appreciate them and help them find that person.If they couldn't separate on account of the political aspect, then either Shelyn would help them both eventually reciprocate their feelings or the first partner would become a damn fine specimen of 'love endures all things' and be especially blessed by Shelyn.
I wonder is Shelyn would start an Extraplanar-E-Harmony?
If the uninterested partner is truthful about their lack of interest and not leading the other person on, I don't see Shelyn having any problems. Her rule isn't to be faithful, or to never break someone's heart. She understands that relationships are complex and feelings aren't always reciprocated. She cares about when people are reckless, when they don't care about the emotions of others and trample them out of malice, or ignorance, but not out of honesty.
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With the whole discussion of political marriages, I can't help but think of the movie Braveheart.
The English prince and French princess are married for political reasons, but they hardly speak to each other, let alone share any affection. The princess hoped that her prince would be the guy of her dreams, but looks elsewhere when she realizes he's not. And the prince is gay, and has a lover on the side. So both of them found love outside their marriage, and Shelyn would approve.
In these types of arranged marriages, I'd imagine that a situation where one spouse is truly devoted to the other, when it's not reciprocated, would be fairly rare. The situation in Braveheart seems far more likely.
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Shelyn wants people to be in happy, loving relationships, platonic or romantic, whether sex is involved or not, married or not, multiple partners or just one. She would not approve of deliberately hurting another in pursuit of that happiness, though. Relationships are complicated things, and no one set of rules is going to fit that (mostly likely why she's Neutral Good instead of Chaotic or Lawful).
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Just tossing my "yeah" onto the accumulating pile-
Shelyn will absolutely and totally "support one of the most emotionally harmful things you can do to a person" if that is not, in fact, what you're actually doing.
Jane and Joe's parents decided they should be married (the local cleric of Erastil said go for it, they were both getting a little long in the tooth to find someone to start a family with)
Jane and/or Joe starts seeing other people.
If Joe finds out Jane is sleeping with the stableboy and gets hacked because his "property" isn't doing as she is legally told, Shelyn isn't going to be terribly sympathetic. Joe had better take it up with Abadar or more likely Asmodeus- even Erastil is going to be a bit askance at Joe's priorities.
If Jane finds out that Joe is sleeping with the blacksmith because he prefers men, and is upset because of what the neighbors will think, Shelyn is not going to bat an eye. She might high-five Calistria.
If Joe finds out that Jane is schtupping the bard who comes through town periodically because of his dreamy come-hither eyes, and Joe consequently spends his solo time working the barn crying because he's come to love her despite the arranged nature of their marriage, Shelyn is not going to be okay with Jane's actions because they're hurting her loving spouse.
If Joe is having an affair with Widow Jill down the way under the guise of helping her chop firewood and haul water and Jane never finds out and believes the husband she has come to love is being faithful, guess what? Shelyn is not okay with that, because Joe is not being honest with his wife who loves him, which is most decidedly not the sort of relationship Shelyn promotes.
If Jane and Joe sit down and express to one another that the love isn't there, and they each agree that she can totally go after that smokin' stableboy and he can merrily find happiness with the widow while staying married for the sake of the community's sense of propriety, Shelyn will probably be incredibly happy with them.
If Jane loves Joe, and Joe understands but doesn't love her and stays gamely in the marriage and never seeks outside gratification? I actually think Shelyn would be a bit disappointed in him for not expressing his true feelings to her and urging her to find love with someone who can truly return her affection.
If Joe loves Jane who doesn't love him back, and she helps him find someone else to reciprocate his feelings so that all three can co-habitate, Jane, despite not having a love relationship of her own, is probably pretty high in the esteem of Sheyln.
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What Lilith said. Every one of us (and our characters) is going to come to the table with our own ideas of what makes a healthy, happy, loving relationship, as well as what we personally find fulfilling. That's going to look wildly different across different cultures, species, planets, etc.
Shelyn is a goddess. She likely doesn't value one mortal culture over another. So while folks are welcome to post their personal thoughts on polyamory, nonmonogamy, and other forms relationships can take (preferably in an off-topic forum), those aren't really questions of canon so much as personal philosophical discussions. (And ones that are quite likely to result in hurt feelings as opinions clash, so let's all be real careful and respectful, mkay?)
And again, as always: your home game is your own business. If you want to use your particular interpretation of a god's tenets, go for it—and let others do the same.
One very important thing to remember is that unlike in our day and age, in Golarion there are many marriages that are not a matter of love but of politics, or alliance, or having grown up in the same village, or your parents approving, or having a decent dowry. Where as in the modern day in most marriages love is the most important factor, that wasn't always the case.
Shelyn basically supports people being happy, regardless of the circumstances, she wouldn't necessarily approve of someone cheating on a devoted and loving spouse that truly loves them in turn, she certainly wouldn't support a one night fling just because of lust, when you truly love your partner and they love you in turn.
But if a couple have married for reasons entirely outside of love, it wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine them both finding succor in the arms of another and politely ignoring that the other is doing the same, or avoiding 'realizing' the truth.
Shelyn would approve of that situation, neither was in love in the first place, should duty come above your own happiness?
She doesn't think so, its as simple as that, don't take happiness from others, but make your own, regardless of what others think.
Do what makes you happy if it won't hurt anyone else, kinda like her belief in art, its all about the passion, she wouldn't approve of the indiscretions of a 'loving' wife abusing her husband or vice versa, the same way she wouldn't approve of a drow fleshwarpers 'art' no matter how beautiful, because harm was involved in its making.
Is the way I see it at least.
One very important thing to remember is that unlike in our day and age, in Golarion there are many marriages that are not a matter of love but of politics, or alliance, or having grown up in the same village, or your parents approving, or having a decent dowry. Where as in the modern day in most marriages love is the most important factor, that wasn't always the case.
Marriage for romantic reasons for the most part is a modern concept, or one taught as fables in earlier times. It was far from a reasonable expectation until very recently. You really don't start to see it until you have the modern day breakup of the extended family into nuclear families.
Given that a goddess of love probably has more than a little influence over when people fall in love, I don't see a problem with any of this. She would want everyone to be careful with the feeling of others, but ultimately, love is far greater than marriage. Go to Erastil or Abadar or Asmodeus if the legal and business part, or even the security part, is what you want from a relationship. With Shelyn, you will have to follow your heart, and though you respect your old partner, what matters is clear communication, kindness and letting them down gently. And yes, that hurts. It is, however, a far cry from hurting them in the pursuit of lust.
Shelyn IS the connection and blossoming love you feel for the new one. It would hardly make sense for her to insist on respecting the rules of marriage above all. And yes, heartbreak IS a part of love.
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Shelyn's one of the primary patron goddesses of Bards - no doubt She considers it a terrible sin to commit adullstory.
While I appreciate the pun, believe it or not, I disagree with the statement.
I think Shelyn would consider bad art better than no art at all. She would encourage everyone to express themselves artistically, even if they're not skillful at it. Though obviously, they should be trying to improve.
I actually have a warpriest of Shelyn who has low charisma and intelligence, so he's no good at perform or craft skills, despite all of her clergy being required to have one or the other trained to do something artistic every day. I gave him craft: wood carvings. His hour of prayer every day before he prepares spells is to whittle at small pieces of wood, usually into roses in honor of Shelyn, then give them out to people he meets to try and spread beauty every day. He's not very good at it at level 1 (+4 total, even with his mw tools), but at least he's trying.
But at this point, we're way off topic.
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Shelyn's one of the primary patron goddesses of Bards - no doubt She considers it a terrible sin to commit adullstory.While I appreciate the pun, believe it or not, I disagree with the statement.
I think Shelyn would consider bad art better than no art at all. She would encourage everyone to express themselves artistically, even if they're not skillful at it. Though obviously, they should be trying to improve.
I actually have a warpriest of Shelyn who has low charisma and intelligence, so he's no good at perform or craft skills, despite all of her clergy being required to have one or the other trained to do something artistic every day. I gave him craft: wood carvings. His hour of prayer every day before he prepares spells is to whittle at small pieces of wood, usually into roses in honor of Shelyn, then give them out to people he meets to try and spread beauty every day. He's not very good at it at level 1 (+4 total, even with his mw tools), but at least he's trying.
But at this point, we're way off topic.
I have a character who worships Sheyln and has profession:leather worker. She has been known to shout "accept your inner beauty or I'll flay you and make a fashionable handbag."
Just tossing my "yeah" onto the accumulating pile-
Shelyn will absolutely and totally "support one of the most emotionally harmful things you can do to a person" if that is not, in fact, what you're actually doing.
Jane and Joe's parents decided they should be married (the local cleric of Erastil said go for it, they were both getting a little long in the tooth to find someone to start a family with)
Jane and/or Joe starts seeing other people.
If Joe finds out Jane is sleeping with the stableboy and gets hacked because his "property" isn't doing as she is legally told, Shelyn isn't going to be terribly sympathetic. Joe had better take it up with Abadar or more likely Asmodeus- even Erastil is going to be a bit askance at Joe's priorities.
If Jane finds out that Joe is sleeping with the blacksmith because he prefers men, and is upset because of what the neighbors will think, Shelyn is not going to bat an eye. She might high-five Calistria.
If Joe finds out that Jane is schtupping the bard who comes through town periodically because of his dreamy come-hither eyes, and Joe consequently spends his solo time working the barn crying because he's come to love her despite the arranged nature of their marriage, Shelyn is not going to be okay with Jane's actions because they're hurting her loving spouse.
If Joe is having an affair with Widow Jill down the way under the guise of helping her chop firewood and haul water and Jane never finds out and believes the husband she has come to love is being faithful, guess what? Shelyn is not okay with that, because Joe is not being honest with his wife who loves him, which is most decidedly not the sort of relationship Shelyn promotes.
If Jane and Joe sit down and express to one another that the love isn't there, and they each agree that she can totally go after that smokin' stableboy and he can merrily find happiness with the widow while staying married for the sake of the community's sense of propriety, Shelyn will probably be...
I'm really digging this post! It definitely answers any questions I had about Shelyn's dogma, thanks.
Hey, she's arguably my second-favorite good-aligned Pathfinder deity, so I do what I can. ;)
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I'm kinda torn on this.
Shelyn, being a goddess of the arts, would probably cater to that crowd of free love, or "if you love her/him, set her/him free, man". In a way exclusive sexual relationship is an artifact of organized religion and traditional/tribal ways. If you want a village of 90 peasants to function properly, some boundaries have to be set. A small community can't have everyone sleeping around. Kids need some kind of stability and routine, and families without that can't focus on getting anything done and putting food on the table. So, for small communities oriented on survival and meeting basic needs, she's not the ideal deity that fits that need.
In large cities, where the surplus of resource production can make entire thousands thrive without actual physical labor, the arts and the ephemera can thrive, and pursuits both intellectual and eclectic can exist (such as an entire company devoted to produce material about a fictitious world! :) ). In such a milieu, Shelyn has her place, and can guide individuals that have a "soul mate" to still explore beauty and sexuality in others. It's a very fine line for a Neutral Good goddess though, and I would say if the other partner is not on board or I would even daresay, not of the artsy bent, this should not even be attempted. If only one side of the couple is doing the exploring, that person should announce her "expedition into the sweetness of love" up front, and give her partner a chance to bow out.
Disclaimer: I'm not endorsing RPG industry people to sleep around at the office. No! bad! very, very bad! :)
Shelyn, being a goddess of the arts, would probably cater to that crowd of free love, or "if you love her/him, set her/him free, man". In a way exclusive sexual relationship is an artifact of organized religion and traditional/tribal ways.
"Art" doesn't have much to do with it, in my opinion.
The traditional view of marriage is defined largely in terms of property rights. When women don't have any, or even worse, when women themselves are property, then it's very much against the pale not to be able to control the use of your property.
Villages of 90 peasants survive perfectly well with relatively open marriages, cohabitation, and the various things that we think of as "bohemian" in most of early 20th century Western Europe. (Look at Iceland, for example, or Celtic Ireland.) One of the key practices that makes both of those work is matrilineal inheritance, so questions of paternity simply aren't that important.
For most of Western history, though, marriage was primarily an economic arrangement, where the husband would assume control of the his bride's money (or a substantial fraction of his father-in-law's -- think of "my daughter's hand in marriage and half the kingdom," or later when all of P.G. Wodehouse's impoverished titleholders were betrothed to the daughters of American industrialists).
ETA: you can see this very clearly in the Western medieval tradition of Courtly Love, precisely because "marriage" was about politics and property, and everyone, man and woman alike, was expected to seek (platonic) emotional fulfilment outside of the bounds of matrimony. Obviously, one couldn't actually consummate such a relationship, because of the risk of illegitimate children, but it at least provided the lovelorn something of an outlet. Illegitimacy is substantially less of a risk in Golarion (suitable family planning methods are available in Ultimate Equipment) and so Shelyn would have no such taboos.