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Especially for a race that essentially had its own supplement. For those who don't know, Skinwalkers are essentially dhampir for wereX instead of vampires. Or tieflings. Or aasimar. They can shift at-will for as long as they want (but only a certain number of times a day) between a human form and "bestial humanoid" form and have a bunch of subraces based on various werecreatures.
Specifically bat, bear, boar, crocodile, rat, shark, tiger and wolf.
Let's look at the Scalehearts, because for some reason the book says that werecrocodile-kin are the most common skinwalker.
In human form the Scaleheart has this at its disposal:
Stats
+2 Int -2 Wis
Skill bonuses
+2 Stealth, +2 to Wild Empathy
SLA
Scare 1/day
So off the bat we have a weak stat array, an odd skill bonus and an eh SLA. But that's all fine. Now 3 + 1/2 level times a day they can shift into a humanoid crocodile form for as long as they please, when they shift they get the following bonuses
+2 to Strength
And one of the following four of player's choice:
-1d6 bite attack
-60 ft dark vision
-30 ft swim speed
-The Ferocity special ability (staggered instead of unconscious at 0 HP)
Now all that sounds pretty cool. So where's the problem?
When the Skinwalker changes, they also receive a rather major penalty in the form of a -4 to charisma and a -4 penalty to charisma based checks.
So in the end you're looking at a race with the following array:
+2 Str +2 Int -2 Wis -4 Cha
+2 to Stealth, +2 to Wild Empathy
60 ft dark vision
-4 to all charisma based checks.
I'm not even touching the fact that they get a bonus to a druid ability as a race that gets a wisdom penalty here.
Because that's a massive penalty to one of their mental stats, with another penalty to checks on top of it (so a -6 to bluff, intimidate, diplomacy and perform).
And while some of the skinwalkers have nice bonus abilities, I'm just not seeing how that justifies a +2 +2 -2 -4 stat array.
Skinwalkers are good for tons of natural attacks.
Natural attacks are crazy good.
The -4 Cha is only to interaction, it doesn't affect any of your class stuff that might rely on it like spells or divine grace. It's pretty much something that can be ignored.
It really is a standard array (while shifted at least. I do think they should have both of their stat bonuses at all times)
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The -4 Cha is only to interaction, it doesn't affect any of your class stuff that might rely on it like spells or divine grace. It's pretty much something that can be ignored.
Nope. Two separate penalties. I thought it worked that way too at first, but the book is pretty clear in that it gives you both.
"-4 to charisma and charisma based checks...(etc.)"
This is especially punishing to the Fanglord (tiger) because they get a cha bonus in wereform, which just means they get a slightly smaller penalty instead.
...only just noticed the penalty to CHA now. And it makes the Fanglord (weretiger one) ridiculous, since it gets a +2 to CHA. And the CHA bit is the one that only comes up when it is transformed.
So its states are +2 Dex -2 Wis -2 CHA. Which makes it totally useless for the bardish/sorcerish role that its intended stats give (similar to catfolk). It might as well not even transform really.
And the way it is worded...these penalties come into play when interacting with nonshape changing humanoids. Does that mean its stats jump from +2 to -2 when people are around? Is having a human around a serious nerf to a fanglord sorcerer's spellcasting? Did the fanglord get nervous that girls are watching?
If it was just the -4 to checks, then it would be fine. Having your fangs put is not a good way to have diplomacy (although it should work fine for intimidate; again, fanglord has a lot of feats that use intimidate). Just make yourself presentable. But the actual stat change is a severe penalty.
I seriously hope this is just a misprint and it should have said 'charisma based skills and charisma based checks'. Because that seems like it is what was supposed to be there (again, not going to say it is unilaterally right for all cha skills, but I get the general principle)
-4 charisma is extremely unpunishing to characters who don't rely on charisma (barbarians, wizards, fighters, druids, rangers, monks and many others) and you can switch off the penalty by shifting into human form for social situations.
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Skinwalkers don't take a -4 penalty to Charisma. Read this again.
While in bestial form, a skinwalker takes a –4 penalty on Charisma and Charisma-based checks when interacting with humanoids that lack the shapechanger subtype.
The text means they take a penalty on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks. They have to use this language because Charisma checks are not skill checks---they're ability checks. Charisma checks are used for things such as charm person and Command Undead. If the author meant the bestial form grants a Charisma penalty, then the text would say "to Charisma" and the penalty would be mentioned in the Ability Score racial trait heading. Additionally, it doesn't make any lick of sense why some heritages would give you Charisma bonuses when you shapeshift despite having a penalty.
Interesting. I was parsing it as [Charisma] and [charisma-based checks] not [Charisma and charisma-based] checks but it seems like a valid and much better interpretation
As for not making sense. Well, as previous mentioned we have a race with a wisdom penalty that gains a skill bonus to a Druid only class feature that isn't even really a skill and a giant angry crocodile monster that's less frightening than the regular human he can pretend to be. So who knows.
Admittedly some of their secondary features are rally strong. Witchwolf +2 to all saves, Nightskulk distraction (save vs nauseated on every attack?) and so on are all awesome.
Scaleheart's don't have the craziest features but there are extremely few str/int races in the game right now so they're worth a look for that
Taking Cyrad's interpretation I have no complaints about the class, other than maybe wishing it had some alternate racial features to trade way some of those lame SLAs and bonuses.
Yeah, that's what I meant by Cha to interaction -> Cha checks. I could've worded that better.
Yeah, some of the SLAs are pretty lame, like jump. However, the heritages that get the worst SLAs also get the best bestial form abilities. Though fanglords have jump, they have a choice of up to three natural attacks, +10 movement speed, and see in darkness. Despite having talking to rats as their SLA, wererat-kin get the best ability of them all: distraction! In fact, it actually looks overpowered unless your GM rules it only works on natural attacks.
Indeed, I'm pretty sure it's clear that the intent was for a penalty on Charisma checks (such as, say, using charm person and using a Charisma check to convince them to do something they wouldn't normally do). Now, if it was 'to', you'd be right, but fortunately they use the word 'on', making it fairly clear. Personally, I think the penalty is unnecessary, but given you only have it when you're in your bestial form, it's not really that bad. I also wish base skinwalkers had a better toolkit of features to go with their shifting physical bonuses...but ah, well, the various breeds do a good job of having a better selection.
And don't forget there is a magic cloak that allow you to grab a selection from another breed.
Don't get me started on the Seascarred, the variant with special Magus Arcana only it can take.
And an Int penalty.
Don't get me started on the Seascarred, the variant with special Magus Arcana only it can take.
And an Int penalty.
I wasn't aware that you needed to be a seascarred to select those arcana. Most of the options don't actually say you need to be a certain race or heritage in the actual text of the option. For example, the arcana's text doesn't say you need to be a seascarred and for most of them, there's no reason why other characters could use it.
"The following Magus arcana are available to weresharks, wereshark-kin and those who associate with those creatures:"
"and those who associate with those creatures:"
Sounds like a perfect place to add 'adopted'.
Yeah. See in Darkness and +2 to all saves are awesome and Distraction looks completely broken.
The other subraces don't look like they have much though. Other than ragebred's natural attacks and bonus speed looking nice.
But wow. Distraction with no restrictions? Just go TWF, archer or pick up some extra natural attacks and force half a dozen saving throws per turn vs one of the best conditions in the game? Hell on anything that isn't immune even if they do have a good fort save. I was making a nightskulk for another game I'm in anyways and young to have to be really sparing with that.
"and those who associate with those creatures:"Sounds like a perfect place to add 'adopted'.
Or start a law firm with a Seascarred partner.
Yeah. See in Darkness and +2 to all saves are awesome and Distraction looks completely broken.
The other subraces don't look like they have much though. Other than ragebred's natural attacks and bonus speed looking nice
Gore and hoof attacks are rare and add nicely to claw and bit attacks (Aspect of the Beast+ adopted(tusked)) for a super-sweet natural attack build. Scent and +10 move too makes it even better.
Amphibious + swim rocks for any water-type adventures.
Heck, even +4 racial bonus on Perception checks, Scent, Falling damage 20 feet less aren't bad on a trapfinding character.
Most aren't bad and get even better when you can snag another ability with that cloak.
Or start a law firm with a Seascarred partner."and those who associate with those creatures:"Sounds like a perfect place to add 'adopted'.
If your girlfriend is one, would that be an associate? ;)
You're right. Guess the title should be "If Cyrad is right skinwalkers are pretty good except for a couple I feel only get mileage in certain campaigns like seascarred, with the exception of nightskulks who have the single best racial ability this side of mystic past life" but that's kind of long winded
If your girlfriend is one, would that be an associate? ;)Or start a law firm with a Seascarred partner."and those who associate with those creatures:"Sounds like a perfect place to add 'adopted'.
It's true. Every topic really is a Paladin thread waiting to happen.
You're right. Guess the title should be "If Cyrad is right skinwalkers are pretty good except for a couple I feel only get mileage in certain campaigns like seascarred, with the exception of nightskulks who have the single best racial ability this side of mystic past life" but that's kind of long winded
seascarred should be fine out of water. Moving Amphibious + swim to Bite + Ferocity works especially if you can heal yourself after Ferocity kicks in. Should be good out of water areas and rock in them.
I do, and have played with one that does too.
It makes hardly a difference.
I do have to admit, I can't really find a use for the werebears.
Climb is about the only bonus to take them over boars. If you're not going a nat attacking character that might make for a better pick.
Werecrocs have sort of a weird stat spread but could make decent Slayers at the least. And I'm actually not sure of any other race that has +Str/+Int off-hand. I want to say there is one but I can't name it.
Male lashunta.
Werecrocs have sort of a weird stat spread but could make decent Slayers at the least. And I'm actually not sure of any other race that has +Str/+Int off-hand. I want to say there is one but I can't name it.
Male Lashunta have the exact same stat spread and Jiang-Shi dhampir have str/int with a dex penalty.
I do have to admit, I can't really find a use for the werebears.
I think the problem with Bears is that they have the same niche as boar, con/wis -cha and a natural attack focused feature spread, but bite/claw is easier to get than gore/hoof, 20 climb is a lot more niche than +10 speed and +2 climb usually loses to +2 perception.
I guess Bear would make a good druid in a low-level game where regular animals are a big feature and you don't have access to flight?
Distraction (Ex)
A creature with this ability can nauseate the creatures that it damages. Any living creature that takes damage from a creature with the distraction ability is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Con modifier) negates the effect.
Good God! It seems like a wererat kin, alchemist would just wreck the game with its mutiple saves per bomb per attack (with tanglefoot, frost, or force bombs). A frost bomb or two per round and your target(s) will never do anything again. ever.
I love alchemists and rangers, but damn! Has this really been play tested? This seems way more powerful than Crane Wing......
You're right. Guess the title should be "If Cyrad is right skinwalkers are pretty good except for a couple I feel only get mileage in certain campaigns like seascarred, with the exception of nightskulks who have the single best racial ability this side of mystic past life" but that's kind of long winded
Nah, the title is fine.
These dudes are some really baaaaad muthahfuggahs!
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Distraction (Ex)
A creature with this ability can nauseate the creatures that it damages. Any living creature that takes damage from a creature with the distraction ability is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Con modifier) negates the effect.
Good God! It seems like a wererat kin, alchemist would just wreck the game with its mutiple saves per bomb per attack (with tanglefoot, frost, or force bombs). A frost bomb or two per round and your target(s) will never do anything again. ever.
I love alchemists and rangers, but damn! Has this really been play tested? This seems way more powerful than Crane Wing......
I, for one, welcome our new wererat overlords.
Man...that's just about as splatty as splat gets.
Distraction (Ex)
A creature with this ability can nauseate the creatures that it damages. Any living creature that takes damage from a creature with the distraction ability is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Con modifier) negates the effect.
Did they mean 'damages with natural weapons' maybe?
Did they mean 'damages with natural weapons' maybe?Distraction (Ex)
A creature with this ability can nauseate the creatures that it damages. Any living creature that takes damage from a creature with the distraction ability is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Con modifier) negates the effect.
Yeah, that was probably the idea (the ability is probably built for natural attacks with distraction on them).
Unfortunately, that isn't how it is written. It is just written generally here, so it "sounds" like it can work with any attack. So....yeah.....
So, someone was going on about alchemists, but what about Kineticists? Does this vague wording allow the SAD-est class around to shut down everything? You know, the class that only needs 2 stats (and maybe a wee bit of wis for will saves) and it can get up to a +6 on a physical stat due to overflow?
Is this wording general enough that I could...for instance...put it on the blasts? Such as air blasts, that can hit 960' away with the right abilities? Or hell, chain blasts, that hit practically everything on the field?
Well, even if you restrict it to physical attacks, could it be with the whip? And I keep on forgetting- does the form ability allow me to go huge with a psuedo reach weapon with that?
Did they mean 'damages with natural weapons' maybe?Distraction (Ex)
A creature with this ability can nauseate the creatures that it damages. Any living creature that takes damage from a creature with the distraction ability is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Con modifier) negates the effect.
I doubt it. Swarms have distraction and they don't deal damage with natural weapons AFAIK. I don't think I have ever seen Distraction on anything other than swarms either(which have it by default as part of the swarm subtype), so who knows how it is supposed to work for a medium sized creature.
I doubt it. Swarms have distraction and they don't deal damage with natural weapons AFAIK. I don't think I have ever seen Distraction on anything other than swarms either(which have it by default as part of the swarm subtype), so who knows how it is supposed to work for a medium sized creature.
How do you think swarms deal damage, if not by natural attacks?
(I know that most don't roll for attack and all, but really, how?)
I doubt it. Swarms have distraction and they don't deal damage with natural weapons AFAIK. I don't think I have ever seen Distraction on anything other than swarms either(which have it by default as part of the swarm subtype), so who knows how it is supposed to work for a medium sized creature.How do you think swarms deal damage, if not by natural attacks?
(I know that most don't roll for attack and all, but really, how?)
Well, the natural attack of any single part of the swarm is not really enough to hurt, or cause distraction.
It is the aggregate of all their attacks at once.
Mechanically though, the damage just happens. And I am fairly sure it goes straight through some of the anti natural attack options (whether it makes sense or not- spike type things? Sure. Fire-ythings? Eh....)
If a swarm of ants chewed through a support pillar and caused rocks to fall on the PCs heads, I wouldn't make the rocks cause a nausea effect - I'd require physical contact of some kind.
One of my homebrew monsters is the Hellmonkey Swarm, and it makes ranged touch attacks using the obvious method monkeys would use. That certainly seems like it could be nauseating though I think currently I just have it doing acid damage and sickening the target on a failed Fort save.