Mythic Martial versus Wizard

[andreww]

Mathius wrote:

2. Please let us know when you have builds that have been submitted?

3. Are you going to post mechanical details of what happens or just what the opposition can detect?
4. How does undetectable work?
I contend that divination works against it but will not reveal location. One could deduce location from plans.
Interactions with the world should be detectable weather you interacted or were interacted with. This means that a wizard will notice that he has been attacked and may even be able to know from what square. Standing on the ground or moving through environments does not entail interaction. It does mean that you can not summon into their square or enter it and that you notice that you fail to do so.
5. Can contingency react to things not detected? Example: a hostile action from an undetectable foe?
6. Does entering a rope trick count as leaving the arena?
7. Can allies not in the arena act?
8. Does a plane created while in the arena count as leaving the area?
9. Do we win if we force our foe from the plane?
10. Can we break WBL if we do so within the week allotted?
11. Can we learn about our
I am thinking of creating wizard, but i am not sure I can have it done in time. Will try.

2. Sure, no problem

3. I will be asking people to type their actions into the roll20 interface. I will open the entire table to public view afterwards and people will also be able to view the chat log. I plan on using a hangout as well and the participants are obviously free to discuss what happened. I have no issue with an audience as well as long as they don't slow stuff down.
4. Undetectable is a pretty badly worded ability. It prevents you from being detected or scried. I don't consider that makes you immune to, for example, people asking questions about you with commune. It also doesn't mean the effects of your actions are undetectable. If you stab someone while under its effects the target clearly knows they have been stabbed. I don't believe they know which square it will have come from as that would be "detecting" but you know someone is about who has stabbed you.
5. I do not believe so. I tend to limit contingency to stimuli which the caster is aware of, the spell is in no way sentient.
6. Yes
7. No but you can summon them into it
8. Yes
9. No, that is neither killing or permanently incapacitating unless the place you send them achieves one of those.
10. No
11. If you are capable of doing so. I will take such enquiries on a case by case basis.

[Mathius]

Thank you for all of the clarifications.

I guess I should clarify what I mean by break WBL since it relates to blood money.

I can can get a free wish with blood money(or other ways) and then use it with true creation to make material components or crafting material. If I do this after the gods obliterate stuff can I use the extra wealth towards other things?

From what it looks like right now I can use material component hacks (blood money or SLAs) to not pay for those but I can not go farther then that using true creation to make more GP.

[ryric]

If the intention of this contest is to somehow "prove" casters are OP, perhaps you should have someone a little more neutral or even on the martial side determine the rules for the combat. This would go a lot differently if:

Golarion-specific resources were banned(i.e. core line only)

Things like simulacrum were ruled in any way that a sane GM would rule them - no 5HD efreeti granting wishes, for example.

...etc. I'm just saying that right now, with your set-up, I'd bet my money on a caster in nearly any system, let alone Pathfinder. The fight would go much differently if the set-up were:

At a random, undivinable period sometime in the next month, both opponents will be thrown into a small 10 ft x 5 ft box with low ceilings and made to fight to the death with no warning or time to prepare.

As it stands, this combat won't demonstrate anything to anyone who isn't already convinced. Have fun with your arena fights, just don't expect this to demonstrate anything - other than, yes, with a GM that can't say no and a set up designed to favor casters that a caster can win an arena combat.

[Mathius]

I would love a smaller playing field. As long as I get my prepared spells and always on buffs allowed this would be easier.

In that tiny room the fighter must be either in my square or other one. Undetectable is useless here.

In the current setup I worry about the two of search forever and missing due to infinite height. It really a matter of detection radius. As a wizard I think I can detect the undetectable in larger area then he can get his non magic sense to go.

[BigDTBone]

ryric wrote:

If the intention of this contest is to somehow "prove" casters are OP, perhaps you should have someone a little more neutral or even on the martial side determine the rules for the combat. This would go a lot differently if:

Golarion-specific resources were banned(i.e. core line only)

Things like simulacrum were ruled in any way that a sane GM would rule them - no 5HD efreeti granting wishes, for example.

...etc. I'm just saying that right now, with your set-up, I'd bet my money on a caster in nearly any system, let alone Pathfinder. The fight would go much differently if the set-up were:

At a random, undivinable period sometime in the next month, both opponents will be thrown into a small 10 ft x 5 ft box with low ceilings and made to fight to the death with no warning or time to prepare.

As it stands, this combat won't demonstrate anything to anyone who isn't already convinced. Have fun with your arena fights, just don't expect this to demonstrate anything - other than, yes, with a GM that can't say no and a set up designed to favor casters that a caster can win an arena combat.

Good thing that isn't the point.

Also, the larger the box the better for a mythic archer. Particularly anything bigger than the distance of a dimension door + a long range spell is really nice.

Also, the game is the game. Banning parts because they are in floppy book instead of rigid books is just very arbitrary when they are all published by paiZo under the pathfinder brand.

[andreww]

Mathius wrote:

Thank you for all of the clarifications.

I guess I should clarify what I mean by break WBL since it relates to blood money.

I can can get a free wish with blood money(or other ways) and then use it with true creation to make material components or crafting material. If I do this after the gods obliterate stuff can I use the extra wealth towards other things?

From what it looks like right now I can use material component hacks (blood money or SLAs) to not pay for those but I can not go farther then that using true creation to make more GP.

That is pretty much my view yes.

It is also not duplicateable with Wish as it is only available as a divine spell and wish can only do level 7 and below for non wizard spells.

[andreww]

ryric wrote:

Things like simulacrum were ruled in any way that a sane GM would rule them - no 5HD efreeti granting wishes, for example.

I consider myself an entirely sane GM and in the right sort of game I might well not have an issue with that. After all it is entirely possible for PC's to begin accessing free wish spells from level 11 when planar binding efreeti becomes available. It isn't as safe using planar binding but it is certainly an option.

Regardless, as the rules stand 5HD efreeti may very well retain their wish granting abilities and until something clearly comes along saying they definitely don't this particular test will run with them doing so. Given all sides are likely to be using them it isn't much of an issue.

As ever you are also more than welcome to run your own experiment.

[Mathius]

How will you resolve contingencies that have the same trigger? I recommend and init check.

I thought true creation was 7 for some reason. Oops guess that will not work.

Is the starting areas 100 by 100 along 1 wall or 100 by 1000 along 1 wall. If the smaller do we know where along the wall our foes starting zone is?

During the 1 round that the god barrier is in force are win in initiative?
Do we know the exact moment we are to transported? To the min? to the hour? Can we find out?

[Kaouse]

20 point buy at level 20, huh.

Is there going to be an age restriction on the caster so they can't just be venerable and gain a free +3 to their casting stat with downsides that are easily fixed with a 50K Mantle of Immortality?

Also, there was talk about Leadership being banned, which I support, if only so this doesn't dissolve the point of the thread with outside parties.

[Anzyr]

Kaouse wrote:

20 point buy at level 20, huh.

Is there going to be an age restriction on the caster so they can't just be venerable and gain a free +3 to their casting stat with downsides that are easily fixed with a 50K Mantle of Immortality?

Also, there was talk about Leadership being banned, which I support, if only so this doesn't dissolve the point of the thread with outside parties.

I'm using the Immortality Arcane Secret to fix my stat penalties thank you very much. Especially since it will actually prevent me from dying of old age.

[Mathius]

Does scribe scroll count as crafting feat?

[JRutterbush]

Mathius wrote:

Does scribe scroll count as crafting feat?

Yes. It's a feat that allows you to craft a kind of magic item, listed with the item creation feats. How could someone possibly think it's not a crafting feat?

[Marroar Gellantara]

JRutterbush wrote:

Mathius wrote:

Does scribe scroll count as crafting feat?

Yes. It's a feat that allows you to craft a kind of magic item, listed with the item creation feats. How could someone possibly think it's not a crafting feat?

Idk perhaps any wizard that does not have 220,000 gold in scrolls.

[Anzyr]

Marroar Gellantara wrote:

JRutterbush wrote:

Mathius wrote:

Does scribe scroll count as crafting feat?

Yes. It's a feat that allows you to craft a kind of magic item, listed with the item creation feats. How could someone possibly think it's not a crafting feat?

Idk perhaps any wizard that does not have 220,000 gold in scrolls.

Ultimate Campaign rules don't care about that. They just care how many crafting feats you have. So I am happily taking my +25% WBL off it. My other feat is Craft Wondrous Item simply out of respect for the feat.

[Mathius]

I guess that works since far more then 220K will be wondrous items. I was wondering if it refereed to feats that have craft in their name. Still I guess forge ring would count and that is not likely to be high on the list.

Can we combine more then 1 item into 1 item by making the lower 1 cost 50 percent more?

[andreww]

Scribe Scroll is a crafting feat and it counts. Magic items have to come from a published source.

[andreww]

Kaouse wrote:

20 point buy at level 20, huh.

Is there going to be an age restriction on the caster so they can't just be venerable and gain a free +3 to their casting stat with downsides that are easily fixed with a 50K Mantle of Immortality?

50k is a not inconsiderable cost.

[andreww]

Mathius wrote:

How will you resolve contingencies that have the same trigger? I recommend and init check.

I think it unlikely that this will happen but if it does I will try and resolve them simultaneously. If timing is an issue then we will go by initiative.

Quote:

Is the starting areas 100 by 100 along 1 wall or 100 by 1000 along 1 wall. If the smaller do we know where along the wall our foes starting zone is?

The starting area is 1000' on a side to give people space to move. In retrospect it is probably too large but I don't plan to change at this stage. You can see your opponents area but not into it.

Quote:

During the 1 round that the god barrier is in force are win in initiative?

No, initiative will be rolled once the barrier goes down.

Quote:

Do we know the exact moment we are to transported? To the min? to the hour? Can we find out?

I am going to say that you know the day and hour but not necessarily the time. You aren't going to be teleported into the arena while having a bath. You are unable to learn the exact moment, only the Gods of Tedium truly know and they are not telling.

[Kaouse]

You know, with an arcane caster and a mythic martial, I almost feel as if the Divine casters are missing out.

An Oracle might be nice, since they can whore out their Charisma stat to ridiculous extremes. If I had half the game mastery these guys had, I'd almost consider tossing out a build.

Of course, I have little experience with the Divine Spellcasting list, and all I remember is that their spells kinda sucked if they weren't buffing themselves up to martial capacity. But even with the full force of CODZILLA, they probably can't stand up to a Mythic Martial.

[Bandw2]

Mathius wrote:

How will you resolve contingencies that have the same trigger? I recommend and init check.

I feel like mentioning that you shouldn't have contingencies with the same trigger, you have them trigger in the order you want by having their trigger be the casting of the previous spell on you/the last contingency has cast its spell.

I would recommend Andreww make/allow people to do this to make it less complicated for everyone.

[kestral287]

Bandw2 wrote:

Mathius wrote:

How will you resolve contingencies that have the same trigger? I recommend and init check.

I feel like mentioning that you shouldn't have contingencies with the same trigger, you have them trigger in the order you want by having their trigger be the casting of the previous spell on you/the last contingency has cast its spell.

I would recommend Andreww make/allow people to do this to make it less complicated for everyone.

Based on the initiative check, I would assume that he means opposing Contingencies.

Player 1 has Contingency: when I strike the enemy in melee, cast X
Player 2 has Contingency: when I am struck in melee, cast Y.

That sort of thing.

If they're all the same player's on the same trigger, order shouldn't matter. If it does matter, the caster did it wrong by not chaining them.

[Mathius]

What kestral said.

How high can we go in the start zone before the barrier goes down?

Infinity high changes things a bit. I recommend either 100 or 1000 feet.

[CWheezy]

Bumping this, because I am HYPE for the battle!

[BigDTBone]

Sadly I just haven't had time to put together the fighter I planned. First week of grad school, starting fellowship applications, investigating research opportunities, eating tacos, drinking beer. It seemed as though at least 2 others were putting together fighter builds, and one of them was much more versed on mythic than I am so it should still be a good show.

Would have liked to put that archer in though...

[Mathius]

My wizard is coming along but I am not sure I can get all the details down by Sunday. I am trying but a 6 year old makes that hard.

If Andrew will grant I would love an extension.

@BigTBone How do you deal with Winds of Vengeance? I think that shuts down any ranged build but maybe mythic has got an answer.

[Cerberus Seven]

Mathius wrote:

My wizard is coming along but I am not sure I can get all the details down by Sunday. I am trying but a 6 year old makes that hard.

If Andrew will grant I would love an extension.

@BigTBone How do you deal with Winds of Vengeance? I think that shuts down any ranged build but maybe mythic has got an answer.

The cyclonic ranged weapon enchantment might be the answer.

[BigDTBone]

Cyclonic, from ranged tactics toolbox

I would carry ammunition with that enhancement, not the bow.

Edit: ninja'd

[Anzyr]

Huh, my spells came out to 16,250 GP. Quite nice. Got to love a Blessed Book. Now I just have to buy costly focuses, tally some numbers, take my (practically every) skills and we're good to go.

[andreww]

Mathius wrote:

My wizard is coming along but I am not sure I can get all the details down by Sunday. I am trying but a 6 year old makes that hard.

If Andrew will grant I would love an extension.

@BigTBone How do you deal with Winds of Vengeance? I think that shuts down any ranged build but maybe mythic has got an answer.

How much longer do you need?

[Mathius]

I think I can be done by Thursday at 6 in the morning. Probably sooner but life gets in the way.

If Anzyr is ready he can of course have the first round. I could be done in time for a second round.

[BigDTBone]

andreww wrote:

Mathius wrote:

My wizard is coming along but I am not sure I can get all the details down by Sunday. I am trying but a 6 year old makes that hard.

If Andrew will grant I would love an extension.

@BigTBone How do you deal with Winds of Vengeance? I think that shuts down any ranged build but maybe mythic has got an answer.

How much longer do you need?

If you are prepared to give extensions I believe I could be ready to go by Thursday as well.

[andreww]

Happy to extend the submission date by a week, no more will be forthcoming.

[andreww]

I should add that if you are planning on doing anything really unusual or strange which hasn't already been discussed then you may want to flag those by PM first. I have already had my first rules query and provided a view.

If planning on doing anything weird with Simulacrum then I would recommend asking in advance to avoid disappointment.

[Mathius]

Thanks.

My tactic so far does not involve bring any one else into the fight but the prep time is taking awhile.

Feats, Spell list, and stats are done. My prep round and 1st round of actions are planned out.

Buffs spells and items are going to take forever to wade through. Also need to find out how much it costs to have every wizard spell in a blessed books.

[Anzyr]

Ok, I have to change some stuff based ruling on some tricks. SO I guess I'll have to task for an extension as well. Probably Wednesday at the latest.

[Mathius]

Spells are done except 5th and 6th level where I can not afford them all. I do not have all the 7th + either but they are picked.

Active spells are not yet done and I can be buffed 6 ways from Sunday.

[CWheezy]

Yo is this going down? Link to the BATTLE?

time? hype train rolling???

[andreww]

I extended entry to Sunday. I have had 1 partial submission so far. I will be taking a week or so after submissions close to look over things.

[CWheezy]

awww man, ok

[Anzyr]

My sheet is submitted. I just have to figure out how to spend my week preparation and I'm set. Obviously my character sheet doesn't really tell the whole story, which to be honest was part of my plan. Though lack of access to certain simulacrums has changed my win methods.

[Mathius]

Submitted the build with gear.

Still working out the prep week but the arena tactics are done.

I can have pretty much any and every buff going in but working out what that means is tedious.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

So, what classes fall under which categories? Or is it only pure martial vs pure caster? If I were to submit a Magus?

[Cuuniyevo]

I think you're a bit late to the party for that sort of discussion, but the original proposition was for a fighter versus a wizard. I don't think anyone would mind if you tried a barbarian, for example, but a martial with built-in casting is counter to the contest.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

I guess so, just trying to find the rules. What mythic tier? >.<

[Cuuniyevo]

In the first thread, the question was, "how many tiers are necessary?" so, as many as you think you need.

[BigDTBone]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

I guess so, just trying to find the rules. What mythic tier? >.<

The minimum mythic tier that you feel comfortable that you could win.

Ninja'd by 47 seconds.

[Mathius]

I think the pure caster could will win but Kensai is one of those things that can challenge a diviner on init and lingering pain shuts down casting hard if you can land it. I still think relying on HP loss to achieve victory is not likely to win.

I wonder if I will eat crow.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

You will, Mathius :), Kensai have many, many tricks of their sleeve to deal with casters, especially if they have foreknowledge. Who would win a fight in an anti magic field, for instance?

But yes, it would rely heavily on HP loss instead of SoS or SoD spells.

[Mathius]

Kensai are mean and fast. Not really a fighter though.
Spellbane stops AMF so you have find a way to crack that before you get me alone in world of wizard crying.

In an arena fight to the death/incap I bet on the mythic magus. In the grand scheme of thing I think the wizard can play keep away better then the magus can and the wizard has more resources to look for him.

Still a magus is pretty bad ass once they find each other the magus has chance if he can incap instead of kill the wizard.

Tend to think the magus is more run though.

[andreww]

The deadline has now closed. I have received two wizards and no martials. I declare Wizard victory by default. Feel free to continue the mad argument amongst yourselves, I am done with it.